Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: snakeyprince83 on 13 July 2015, 12:22:49 am
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Hi guys, i have recently heard about the problem with the sprocket nut not fititng properly and falling out, i have an old 98 fazer, 4'600 miles, i'm a bit paranoid now and want to go check it out, what am i looking for?, is it easy to check myself or would taking it to the garage be the best bet? Cheers.
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Get a torch and point it into the front sprocket cover from behind, following the chain.
You should be able to see a couple of threads sticking out in the middle of the nut, or if it has the new nut fitted the nut will be totally flush with the end of the shaft with no threads showing at all.
There has been a discussion that '98 models remain unaffected, although that's not 100% proven or guaranteed yet, but saying that no '98 owners appear to have come forward with the issue either.
Or if you want to look properly you need to take the gear change lever/mechanism off, scratching or marking which position the lever is on the spline, then take the sprocket cover off.
You will highly likely damage the gasket on removal, although a lot of us haven't bothered replacing it without any bother.
Then you can check the nut properly, and clean the sprocket cover out of any built up chain lube.
No point in paying out good money for such a simple job.
If you do a bit more searching on here you'll find pictures and more tips as well. :thumbup
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There's a few discussions listed on here plus a few pictures.
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,16751.msg193040.html#msg193040 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,16751.msg193040.html#msg193040)
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As far as I know you can only do it by:
1) Remove gear shift pedal
2) Remove sprocket cover
3) First try and rotate nut by hand
4) Get a decent adjustable open ended spanner and fit it over the flats of the nut that aren't covered by the tab washer, and try and rotate it backwards and forwards.
If it doesn't move it's probably O.K.
If it does move it's probably not.
It's a known fault, I suppose you could call it a 'common fault', except it's not that common.
So you're bike can suffer from it, but it's more likely not to.
Yamaha do actually make a slightly bigger nut, to assuage the worry.
But in reality that's all it's likely to do, because it doesn't address the cause of the problem really.
Oddly enough I reckon you can probably solve the problem (assuming the threads aren't shagged) with the original nut if you want to.
This involves grinding off part of the the lip on the nut, so whilst it tightens on the shaft, it doesn't tighten against the sprocket, it simply fits flush with it. After all, there is no specific reason why it needs to 'tighten' against the sprocket, it only needs to prevent it moving laterally.
If memory serves some Honda sprockets used to be 'loose' in the 1970's.
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As far as I know you can only do it by:
1) Remove gear shift pedal
2) Remove sprocket cover
3) First try and rotate nut by hand
4) Get a decent adjustable open ended spanner and fit it over the flats of the nut that aren't covered by the tab washer, and try and rotate it backwards and forwards.
If it doesn't move it's probably O.K.
If it does move it's probably not.
It's a known fault, I suppose you could call it a 'common fault', except it's not that common.
So you're bike can suffer from it, but it's more likely not to.
Yamaha do actually make a slightly bigger nut, to assuage the worry.
But in reality that's all it's likely to do, because it doesn't address the cause of the problem really.
Oddly enough I reckon you can probably solve the problem (assuming the threads aren't shagged) with the original nut if you want to.
This involves grinding off part of the the lip on the nut, so whilst it tightens on the shaft, it doesn't tighten against the sprocket, it simply fits flush with it. After all, there is no specific reason why it needs to 'tighten' against the sprocket, it only needs to prevent it moving laterally.
If memory serves some Honda sprockets used to be 'loose' in the 1970's.
Not that common????
I beg to differ.
If you look at much earlier posts on here there was a bloody long list of people who's nut had failed, or even vanished, some more than once!
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To Darrsi
I've met and talked to quite a few Fazer owners over the last fourteen years, probably twenty or more.
But I've only met one Fazer owner that actually experienced the problem.
So from my point of view.... yes it's a known fault, but you're more likely to not have it, than have it.
And whilst there may be a long list of people that have experienced the fault.
There isn't a list of those that haven't
Because there's little point remarking on a fault the bike hasn't actually got.
Sadly I have to go to, work beckons, but the weather doesn't.
In any event, hope you have a good day
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98 fazer, 4'600 miles
With that low a mileage, I wouldn't worry too much.
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Cheers guys, helpful advice. I will have a look after work.
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Also where can I order, or what parts number is the new nut?
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Also where can I order, or what parts number is the new nut?
The nut comes with a washer:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141276105948?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141276105948?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
THE KIT CONTAINS:
90179-18006 UPGRADED NUT
90215-21290 WASHER
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Just to put your mind at rest.
The problem rarely manifests itself before 12000 miles and for some reason the 2002 to 2003 foxeyes seemed to be the worst affected as were many other Yamaha 600s from 2002 to 2006 which used the same type of 9mm nut.
The new nut and washer comes in kit format which includes both and part number is 90891-10124
The problem is cause by the tolerance allowed by Yamaha meant the shaft could be machined too small and the nut could vibrate and the threads fret causing the threads to wear away, losing all thread and then falling off.
Yamaha produced an uprated nut 12mm thick instead of 9mm and recommended a new torque on the thicker bolt of 90Nm.
Do not torque the 9mm nut to 90Nm as you are likely to strip the threads in the nut, there is insufficient thread in the nut to take the 90Nm safely.
This solution works as long as the threads had no damage. :thumbup
Unfortunately the first time it happened on mine the sprocket fell on to the threads slightly flatting them, exacerbating the problem. After much communication, (I am being nice here) Yamaha finally relented after 72000 mile when the threads of the shaft were almost completely gone to supply the all the parts to repair it (all the gaskets, shaft, bearings, seals and other items) at half price, because they were supposed to have repaired it at 15000 miles when it first happened.
I documented my fix for the problem and uploaded it to the download section. This fix has over 150000 miles on it without problems. I just replaced the Chain and sprockets recently and the fix seems to be effective.
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Brilliant, thanks. I have had a look with a torch and I can see some thread, it's not flush but if I'm not going to have a problem because of the bikes low mileage I will get it done at the garage when I take the bike in for its yearly service in a few months time :)
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Easy to do yourself, did mine the other week and did this video:
http://youtu.be/QrC0P-VtOmE (http://youtu.be/QrC0P-VtOmE)
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The video is very good, but he did not torque up the nut properly.
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Here's a couple of recent pics of my nut, ooh err missuss, but it's been on my '98 27500 miles bike I guess from new, but I'm really not in any rush to change it although I've got the new nut and washer to do it, as I think if it was going to come off, it would of by now surely?
I'm waiting till I get a new chain and sprocket set, then I'll do the lot together.
Just thought I'd show it for comparison.
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Yeah that is what mine looks like, i can see the thread like that on mine when i shine a torch down on it, i will get it done sooner rather than later just for peace of mind, if it came off and wrecked anything i'd kick myself and my missus would rip my other nuts off over the hefty repair bill haha
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Great video Panthor, very helpful, i'm thinking after 4600 miles mine would take a lot more work to get the nut loose than yours? Got the confidence to do it myself now though and will do so soon enough, cheers!
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Everybody makes their own mind up about how they feel about their nuts :eek :lol
I don't have a missus, so it's my shout :b
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Personally I prefer the old "prevention is better than cure method".
My 9mm nut fused itself on and my mechanic had trouble getting the thing to budge at all.
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Personally I prefer the old "prevention is better than cure method".
My 9mm nut fused itself on and my mechanic had trouble getting the thing to budge at all.
I understand darrsi, but I'm saving up for a complete set of sprockets and chain, don't think it'll make any difference now if I wait a month or two to change the lot together, and I'll probably now wait till winter then I can strip the whole back end down including swingarm and then can get an endless chain instead of an open one :)
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The video is very good, but he did not torque up the nut properly.
Can you explain as to how it wasn't torqued properly??
Also just for info my bike was on 16k miles
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Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
My personal theory is that the 1st bikes came out of one factory and then when the sales took off more outsourced factory's were needed and that is why later models suffer from the wrong spec size shaft being milled from the other factory's.
My 98 17k miles no problems yet although I do have the new nut and monitor the oem one and will change when i do the sprocket and chain
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Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
My personal theory is that the 1st bikes came out of one factory and then when the sales took off more outsourced factory's were needed and that is why later models suffer from the wrong spec size shaft being milled from the other factory's.
My 98 17k miles no problems yet although I do have the new nut and monitor the oem one and will change when i do the sprocket and chain
You're all 'special'. ;)
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Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
My personal theory is that the 1st bikes came out of one factory and then when the sales took off more outsourced factory's were needed and that is why later models suffer from the wrong spec size shaft being milled from the other factory's.
My 98 17k miles no problems yet although I do have the new nut and monitor the oem one and will change when i do the sprocket and chain
:agree
You're all 'special'. ;)
:agree
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The video is very good, but he did not torque up the nut properly.
Can you explain as to how it wasn't torqued properly??
Also just for info my bike was on 16k miles
The old fear of 90Nm recommended and 80Nm used.
Mine failed originally at 15682miles, a friends failed at 17100miles, but I have come across one on a Thundercat which failed at 12750miles.
I have tighten all I have worked on to 90Nm withou issue
The Fzs1000 is 85 on a 9mm nut, granted the threads are coarser.
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The video is very good, but he did not torque up the nut properly.
Can you explain as to how it wasn't torqued properly??
Also just for info my bike was on 16k miles
The old fear of 90Nm recommended and 80Nm used.
Mine failed originally at 15682miles, a friends failed at 17100miles, but I have come across one on a Thundercat which failed at 12750miles.
I have tighten all I have worked on to 90Nm withou issue
The Fzs1000 is 85 on a 9mm nut, granted the threads are coarser.
I am with unfazed on that just changed mine and used 90nm
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Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
My personal theory is that the 1st bikes came out of one factory and then when the sales took off more outsourced factory's were needed and that is why later models suffer from the wrong spec size shaft being milled from the other factory's.
My 98 17k miles no problems yet although I do have the new nut and monitor the oem one and will change when i do the sprocket and chain
(http://www.heyuguys.co.uk/images/2013/07/inspector-clouseau.jpg)
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It all started a couple of years ago, after reading about it here I rang local dealer who rang yam with my reg and engine number and they came back to me to say the note does not cover my bike.
Then on looking on here I started to see a pattern in that I could not find a 98 owner who had the issue, that was before sinto and snakeyprince joined so now there are another 2 98s to add to the list of (as yet ) unaffected.
If the issue is an undersized output shaft then I would deduct that those shafts were not made in the same factory as the correct ones, I propose that 98 shafts were all made in one factory and later bikes all over the place leading to a hit and miss on the shaft size / nut problem
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Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
Have younger FZS600s suffered a nut-shedding incident with an untouched nut?
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Since the first ones were made in 98 I doubt it ;)
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98 is the youngest and as far as evidence (here at least ) has shown the issue has not affected them
Here is my post about this in 2013 http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.msg101931.html#msg101931 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.msg101931.html#msg101931)
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Wouldn't the 98 be the oldest fazer.
My 2003 is younger and the nut was untouched and I discovered the free play on it so changed it
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My bad, definitely some confusion with younger vs older haha
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I think what fazer rider meant was younger being - older, as in made before 98
So the 1st fazer fzs 600s made in 98 are ok and its the later (younger ) models 99/2000/2001 etc that have the issue
Im still saying that I have not seen a single 98 owner who has had this issue with an untouched factory fitted nut.
Have younger FZS600s suffered a nut-shedding incident with an untouched nut?
The answer is YES and its only the younger (99 onwards) that are affected
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fazersharp, I wonder if the small fact your bike has never seen rain before has anything to do with all your nuts and bolts remaining firmly in place? :lol
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fazersharp, I wonder if the small fact your bike has never seen rain before has anything to do with all your nuts and bolts remaining firmly in place? :lol
My nuts have seen plenty of rain and they're firmly in place I think :rolleyes
Oops, just realised your talking of nuts on the bike :lol
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Well that could explain mine but what about the other 98s
And you are wrong -- my bike has seen rain because I have showed it some pictures,
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Well that could explain mine but what about the other 98s
And you are wrong -- my bike has seen rain because I have showed it some pictures,
You could at least drive through the odd car wash every now and then as a treat. :lol
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I sometimes ride through damp patches where the sun is shaded from the road
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"I sometimes ride through damp patches"
Oh no :(
This could start a whole new thread :rolleyes :b
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just be careful the transmission is not in gear so you don't rive the hell out of it, make sure someone has the back brake on and use the chain to hold/oppose the thing..
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best thing is to be sure your on the safe side
get it sorted !
after all a man has to be sure about his NUTS :lol :lol
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after all a man has to be sure about his NUTS :lol :lol
:uhuh remember what you've been told about checking your nuts regularly too :rolleyes
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if anything goes wrong i always reach for my nutz......look at my username "anutz"......
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if anything goes wrong i always reach for my nutz......look at my username "anutz"......
There was me thinking you couldn't spell :b
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Hi fazersharp, here's my experience after your request for more info from 98 owners.
I've not long had my 98 600 and as yet haven't ridden it as I'm in the process of giving her a tidy up.
After reading about the possible issue relating to the original 9mm nut, and finding that the chain on sprockets would benefit from renewing, I opened up the sprocket cover and found the mess shown in the pics below.
It looks like the front sprocket has never been touched (bike has done about 42k :eek ) and still has the original 9mm nut. Thankfully, it was still tight, the retaining washer folded over on 2 sides.
Flattening off the washer I undid the nut which was a little stiff but not too bad, and the threads were all intact. I'd say that it would never have come loose on its own. I will, however replace it with a new 12mm nut and retaining washer and a little loctite to be on the safe side.
Obviously, I'll be cleaning up the gunk before fitting the new c&s kit ;)
Steve
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Thanks for that Freck I dont meant to hijack the OP but as he has a 98 it is sort of relevant.
Be good to also post up your "after" cleaning photos
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Be good to also post up your "after" cleaning photos
Yep, no problem. It might be a while before I get to post them though as I'm currently 4000 miles away from home with work :)
Steve
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Thats a heck of a commute
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changed it today, it wasnt loose enough that i could turn it with my fingers but it didnt take much with the wrench at all, came right off, i tightened it to 80. Was much easier than i thought. Next is to save some pennies for the retrofit labs headlight conversion kit so i can see where i'm going in the dark, cheers all!
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best thing is to be sure your on the safe side
get it sorted !
after all a man has to be sure about his NUTS :lol :lol
:lol