Wot a pillock (me)

[Lazarus]

glad you're ok m8 - looks like I got off easy with my spill!

[Stedman8]

Listen to your uncle Steve, dont give up because you will regret it ,maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of your life ( if in doubt quote Casablanca ) seriously though dont listen to people who say crap like give it up - the best advice I can give is learn to walk before you run - passing a test is just the beginning the main thing about riding is taking it easy and gain experience , things will become second nature and you will wonder what the problem was and don't worry everyone has doubts about their abilities to do things from time to time ( including motorcycling ) its the human condition mate, so get back in the saddle and look after yourself,cheers Steve

[simonm]

Listen to your uncle Steve, dont give up because you will regret it ,maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of your life ( if in doubt quote Casablanca ) seriously though dont listen to people who say crap like give it up - the best advice I can give is learn to walk before you run - passing a test is just the beginning the main thing about riding is taking it easy and gain experience , things will become second nature and you will wonder what the problem was and don't worry everyone has doubts about their abilities to do things from time to time ( including motorcycling ) its the human condition mate, so get back in the saddle and look after yourself,cheers Steve

Thank you.  Appreciated.

[simonm]

I get a massive sensory overload which I can handle most of the time until I look at a corner and think I'm going too fast for this corner I need to lose speed.  In reality I think the speed I was going was fine, I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone.


The tyres and tread on a motorbike scare me.


The road scares me (gravel, oil, rain, camber, potholes, diesel and huge lumps of concrete).


I need a ton more experience.  Given the spills I've had I need more confidence which is a catch 22.  My solution is to work on my cornering with a professional until I feel confident.


That's my plan anyway.


I'll get there eventually I hope.

[Andy FZS]

I know just how you feel that is why I ride like a granny (no offence to grannies) I've only been riding a year since about 20 yrs off I really need to pluck up the courage to look for some help to properly enjoy my bike. Anyway good luck and I'm glad you're okay.

[darrsi]

"...My solution is to work on my cornering with a professional until I feel confident..."


Sounds like a job for David Beckham, he rides bikes and i've heard his cornering skills are excellent 

[simonm]

"...My solution is to work on my cornering with a professional until I feel confident..."


Sounds like a job for David Beckham, he rides bikes and i've heard his cornering skills are excellent 

 
reminds me of this;

[Chris]

In reality I think the speed I was going was fine, I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone.

What I get from this sentence is that the speed was fine for the bike and it could have made the turn BUT you were going too fast for YOU. Just because the bike can make a turn at a certain speed doesn't mean it should be at the limit all the time. It is good to find where abouts the limit is etc but that is for learning on a racetrack/ training track day like california superbike school.
 
My advice would be to save your money for a little while though and just slow down overall. If you want to go faster then give yourself time and get miles under your belt and build up the speed slowly so that you don't have those freak out moments. Keep watching the twist of the wrist and any other bike riding info you can and go out and try things SLOWLY and build up the speed SLOWLY. Just because you get a corner right at 30 and your technique is perfect the same corner at 40 or 50 or 60 might be possible for the bike but it will feel very different and your technique might not be able to cope. So if you do the corner 100 times and gradually build up the speed then your technique will grow and adapt as the speed increases.
 
Take your time and enjoy being out on the bike, keep the speed down everywhere and you'll not end up freaking out when a corner tightens up on you or a car does something unexpected around you or the lights change but you can't stop in time or a kid runs out in front of you... with good technique all these situations can be avoided or dealt with without going rubber side up but if you haven't taken the time to learn the principles of how the bike reacts to inputs then it''ll chuck you off.
 
Being relaxed is difficult when you get a fright or feel uncomfortable but it is so important, it helps you stay smooth with your inputs to the bike (throttle, lean angle of both bike and rider, pressure on pegs, steering, braking pressure etc). Using smooth inputs won't unsettle the bike and will mean the tyres aren't having to work so hard even if they are leaned right over.
 
Sorry for the tomb to read.
 
Take care and take it easy. 
 
Chris

[packie]

Simon....Glad your ok, man. Just something to consider and I risk getting scorned for this.....

Keep an open mind about the comandarie advice & support to get back in the saddle.

There is great support here for you to carry on. I personally wouldn't offer advice either way. Although the intentions are good, that advice and support  to get back in the saddle has the potential to actually kill you!!.....thats what you need to keep an open mind about.

 
Only you can determine that decision from the bottom of your soul and with all honesty. I know a lot of people who got into bikes (for whatever reasons) and who have since walked away because they just weren't cut out for it.


My bro-in-law walked away after a few falls just like you into corners. He had professional training and everything before and after his spills. He eventually was open and honest with himself and walked away. He just could not get his head around the fear factor of riding....simple as that. It didn't matter even when he was doing things correctly or how much professional biking help he got. His head was not geared for riding a bike. He is very happy now and have no regrets. So am I and his family because I have a gut feeling if he persisted in trying, he would have been killed eventually.


Biking is meant to be a pleasurable experience. On top of that and I can only speak for myself, I also knew instantly (despite the dangers) that "this was for me". I had a sorta inner grin from day one and nothing wouldn't extinguish it. I guess what i'm trying to say is that you either "have it" or you don't. I also have seen through my experiences that not everyone posses "that feeling" and may not acquire that feeling even after some formal professional training or moral support.


Another example of this is when both my bosses bought "his & hers" bikes with this "Route 66-come-easy rider fantasy" that they had in their heads. They had all the training that money could buy and the best of bikes and gear at their disposal. Both their bikes are gathering dust ever since. They rode locally for a day of too and it just wasn't the experience that they had dreamt up in their heads....far from it. They found it to be a frightful, intimidating and dangerous experience. Again...you either "have it" or you don't IMO....and only you know that All the training, talking and well intentioned back slapping won't give it to you....actually, it might have the opposite effect and have the potential to keep you locked into something that shouldn't be in and it could kill you as I said above.

From what i'm hearing from your quote below.....Your experiences have alarm bells written all over it. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else with my opinions, and apologies in advance if I have. I am just more concerned about your safety.


"I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone."

"The tyres and tread on a motorbike scare me."

"The road scares me"

[simonm]

In reality I think the speed I was going was fine, I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone.

What I get from this sentence is that the speed was fine for the bike and it could have made the turn BUT you were going too fast for YOU. Just because the bike can make a turn at a certain speed doesn't mean it should be at the limit all the time. It is good to find where abouts the limit is etc but that is for learning on a racetrack/ training track day like california superbike school.
 
My advice would be to save your money for a little while though and just slow down overall. If you want to go faster then give yourself time and get miles under your belt and build up the speed slowly so that you don't have those freak out moments. Keep watching the twist of the wrist and any other bike riding info you can and go out and try things SLOWLY and build up the speed SLOWLY. Just because you get a corner right at 30 and your technique is perfect the same corner at 40 or 50 or 60 might be possible for the bike but it will feel very different and your technique might not be able to cope. So if you do the corner 100 times and gradually build up the speed then your technique will grow and adapt as the speed increases.
 
Take your time and enjoy being out on the bike, keep the speed down everywhere and you'll not end up freaking out when a corner tightens up on you or a car does something unexpected around you or the lights change but you can't stop in time or a kid runs out in front of you... with good technique all these situations can be avoided or dealt with without going rubber side up but if you haven't taken the time to learn the principles of how the bike reacts to inputs then it''ll chuck you off.
 
Being relaxed is difficult when you get a fright or feel uncomfortable but it is so important, it helps you stay smooth with your inputs to the bike (throttle, lean angle of both bike and rider, pressure on pegs, steering, braking pressure etc). Using smooth inputs won't unsettle the bike and will mean the tyres aren't having to work so hard even if they are leaned right over.
 
Sorry for the tomb to read.
 
Take care and take it easy. 
 
Chris

Like I said at the start "I said I was a klutz and it was my incompetence. Not much more I can say to completely accept responsibility for my own actions.  I think I'll call my local riding school and see what, if anything, they can do to help me with my cornering."


I know it was me.  There was no one else's fault it could have been.  I don't believe it was the speed either, I'm sure the bike could have got around the corner at that speed, I certainly wasn't going quickly.  It was me.  My confidence and my lack of experience.

[simonm]

some good advise there simonm,take no notice of the pm..theres always one  .....we have all been in that situation before hence all the advice,after a long winter lay up i do it myself a couple of times untill i get back in my stride,3/4 years ago i did a bike safe refresher course with local council/police all stuff i already new but nice to have a reminder.....road position also very important,use the whole width even the over side when its safe to do so  ......good luck with whatever you decide to do 

The PM was just a joke.  Twas funny from both sides methinks ;-)




I might have a word with the local bodyshop and see if the dent can be pulled out of the tank easily or not.  The fairing is pretty narfed but may be fibreglassable.  Maybe this is the time to give the bike a respray, maybe with a funky purple flip if I can afford one.

Simon....




Glad your ok, man. Just something to consider and I risk getting scorned for this.....


Keep an open mind about the comandarie advice & support to get back in the saddle.






There is great support here for you to carry on. I personally wouldn't offer advice either way. Although the intentions are good, guys should be careful about giving that advice because it is quite possible also too that you are one of those people who are just not cut out to ride a bike. There are such people. So this well intentioned advice and support  to get back in the saddle has the potential to actually kill you!!.....thats what you need to keep an open mind about.


Only you can determine that decision from the bottom of your soul and with all honesty. I know a lot of people who got into bikes (for whatever reasons) and who have since walked away because they just weren't cut out for it.


My bro-in-law walked away after a few falls just like you into corners. He had professional training and everything before and after his spills. He eventually was open and honest with himself and walked away. He just could not get his head around the fear factor of riding....simple as that. It didn't matter even when he was doing things correctly or how much professional biking help he got. His head was not geared for riding a bike. He is very happy now and have no regrets. So am I and his family because I have a gut feeling if he persisted in trying, he would have been killed eventually.


Biking is meant to be a pleasurable experience. On top of that and I can only speak for myself, I also knew instantly (despite the dangers) that "this was for me". I had a sorta inner grin from day one and nothing wouldn't extinguish it. I guess what i'm trying to say is that you either "have it" or you don't. I also have seen through my experiences that not everyone posses "that feeling" and may not acquire that feeling even after some formal professional training or moral support.


Another example of this is when both my bosses bought "his & hers" bikes with this "Route 66-come-easy rider fantasy" that they had in their heads. They had all the training that money could buy and the best of bikes and gear at their disposal. Both their bikes are gathering dust ever since. They rode locally for a day of too and it just wasn't the experience that they had dreamt up in their heads....far from it. They found it to be a frightful, intimidating and dangerous experience. Again...you either "have it" or you don't IMO....and only you know that. All the training, talking and well intentioned back slapping won't give it to you....actually, it might have the opposite effect and have the potential to keep you locked into something that maybe you shouldn't be in and it could kill you.


From what i'm hearing from your quote below and especially the stuff I highlighted in green.....Your experiences have alarm bells written all over it. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else with my opinions, and apologies in advance if I have. I am just more concerned about your safety.


"I get a massive sensory overload which I can handle most of the time until I look at a corner and think I'm going too fast for this corner I need to lose speed.  In reality I think the speed I was going was fine, I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone.The tyres and tread on a motorbike scare me.The road scares me(gravel, oil, rain, camber, potholes, diesel and huge lumps of concrete)."

some good advise there simonm,take no notice of the pm..theres always one  .....we have all been in that situation before hence all the advice,after a long winter lay up i do it myself a couple of times untill i get back in my stride,3/4 years ago i did a bike safe refresher course with local council/police all stuff i already new but nice to have a reminder.....road position also very important,use the whole width even the over side when its safe to do so  ......good luck with whatever you decide to do 

The PM was just a joke.  Twas funny from both sides methinks ;-)


I might have a word with the local bodyshop and see if the dent can be pulled out of the tank easily or not.  The fairing is pretty narfed but may be fibreglassable.  Maybe this is the time to give the bike a respray, maybe with a funky purple flip if I can afford one.

Simon....


Glad your ok, man. Just something to consider and I risk getting scorned for this.....

Keep an open mind about the comandarie advice & support to get back in the saddle.



There is great support here for you to carry on. I personally wouldn't offer advice either way. Although the intentions are good, guys should be careful about giving that advice because it is quite possible also too that you are one of those people who are just not cut out to ride a bike. There are such people. So this well intentioned advice and support  to get back in the saddle has the potential to actually kill you!!.....thats what you need to keep an open mind about.

Only you can determine that decision from the bottom of your soul and with all honesty. I know a lot of people who got into bikes (for whatever reasons) and who have since walked away because they just weren't cut out for it.

My bro-in-law walked away after a few falls just like you into corners. He had professional training and everything before and after his spills. He eventually was open and honest with himself and walked away. He just could not get his head around the fear factor of riding....simple as that. It didn't matter even when he was doing things correctly or how much professional biking help he got. His head was not geared for riding a bike. He is very happy now and have no regrets. So am I and his family because I have a gut feeling if he persisted in trying, he would have been killed eventually.

Biking is meant to be a pleasurable experience. On top of that and I can only speak for myself, I also knew instantly (despite the dangers) that "this was for me". I had a sorta inner grin from day one and nothing wouldn't extinguish it. I guess what i'm trying to say is that you either "have it" or you don't. I also have seen through my experiences that not everyone posses "that feeling" and may not acquire that feeling even after some formal professional training or moral support.

Another example of this is when both my bosses bought "his & hers" bikes with this "Route 66-come-easy rider fantasy" that they had in their heads. They had all the training that money could buy and the best of bikes and gear at their disposal. Both their bikes are gathering dust ever since. They rode locally for a day of too and it just wasn't the experience that they had dreamt up in their heads....far from it. They found it to be a frightful, intimidating and dangerous experience. Again...you either "have it" or you don't IMO....and only you know that. All the training, talking and well intentioned back slapping won't give it to you....actually, it might have the opposite effect and have the potential to keep you locked into something that maybe you shouldn't be in and it could kill you.

From what i'm hearing from your quote below and especially the stuff I highlighted in green.....Your experiences have alarm bells written all over it. Hope I haven't offended you or anyone else with my opinions, and apologies in advance if I have. I am just more concerned about your safety.

"I get a massive sensory overload which I can handle most of the time until I look at a corner and think I'm going too fast for this corner I need to lose speed.  In reality I think the speed I was going was fine, I just freaked about the physics and the sharpness of the corner and boom, I'd gone.The tyres and tread on a motorbike scare me.The road scares me(gravel, oil, rain, camber, potholes, diesel and huge lumps of concrete)."

I have that grin, of course I do.  The second you do you CBT you know if you like riding or not.  If you're not scared of the bike and the tarmac you're not human.


Have you ever looked at the width of the wheels on an BMW M3 ?  It has 4 of them.  Forgive me if I'm a newb who isn't entirely confident of 2 tyres on a motorbike that probably has more BHP per tonne than an M3.


I appreciate your comments but I'm old enough to know if something is beyond my capabilities or not and riding a bike is not beyond them.  I need experience, practise, tuition and confidence (not too much of the last one).  End of story.


Thanks for the input.

[packie]

Simon wrote:
I appreciate your comments but I'm old enough to know if something is beyond my capabilities or not and riding a bike is not beyond them. 



Fair enuff...but I can't help it if I just didn't pick up on your dogged determination to succeed in your comment below, especially the bit in red....


"I'm a newb and I've come off twice in three months.  Starting to wonder if it's a sign."


....I wish you well and safe riding.

[caretaker]

stick to your own pace, dont ride with anyone else and stay off the back brake! i only use the front brake, bad habit i know. but using the back on a bend is asking for trouble. after i passes my test centuries ago, i only used the back. gradually, and like yourself, several offs, i realised that i should start using mainly the front. still had a few offs since though, so youre in good company.

[wezdavo]

Pleased you where ok after the crash..
 
You need to relax bud, don't put too much pressure on yourself to go fast..
 
Speed will come with time..
 
Remember, no matter what your head says, bikes ARE built for this kind of thing..
 
 
 
 
 
 

[wezdavo]

Just a thought but maybe your not reading the road far enough ahead??
 
Meaning you are carrying too much speed when approaching corners, which is scary..
 
On the approach to a corner I like to have everything done, braking , gears and positioning, so all I have to worry about is when to flick it in and when to roll the throttle on..
 
 

[wezdavo]

stick to your own pace, dont ride with anyone else and stay off the back brake! i only use the front brake, bad habit i know. but using the back on a bend is asking for trouble. after i passes my test centuries ago, i only used the back. gradually, and like yourself, several offs, i realised that i should start using mainly the front. still had a few offs since though, so youre in good company.

Why do you say this bud?
 
On the approach to a corner I use BOTH brakes, I DONT USE ANY BRAKES ONCE CORNERING but if I had to, it would be gently with the back brake as it overloads the front tyre less...
 
Infact once cornering the front tyre is heavily loaded already and using the front brake on top of this is very bad advice mate..

 

[noggythenog]

I admire packies honesty, perhaps not what you,me or anyone wants to read but still very honest & the other half of the tale none the less.
It's a hot topic this one and theres no doubt lots on here that can learn from it as we learn from our own & others mistakes.
Not that 2 wrongs make a right but regards the whole death thing, it is still a risk we take every day in our supposedly safe cars, bikes are deemed dangerous & yes they are less forgiving but im sure theres lots of cases where a bike has escaped from a near miss by virtue of its small size or nimble handling where a car would have crashed.Actually theres numerous thousands of folk out there driving cars every day that probably shouldnt be.Folk that would never dream of further training & arent remotely interested in skills,techniques or safety.you have completed extra training by doing your bike test which is very thorough & you've been deemed passworthy by by a biker.Granted that's only the beggining but you seem keen to progress & you at least admit failings that lots of others keep to themselves whilst pretending they know what they're doing.
If you did your test recently then you did extensive slow speed stuff,slaloms,figure of eights, the swerve test etc, you may not be as good as some seasoned bikers at cornering but you may be far better at slow speed control that they have rarely if ever formally practiced.Still all ifs buts and maybes but im keeping positive & keeping that glass half full whilst you get over the crash.
 

[richfzs]

stick to your own pace, dont ride with anyone else and stay off the back brake! i only use the front brake, bad habit i know. but using the back on a bend is asking for trouble. after i passes my test centuries ago, i only used the back. gradually, and like yourself, several offs, i realised that i should start using mainly the front. still had a few offs since though, so youre in good company.

Why do you say this bud?
 
On the approach to a corner I use BOTH brakes, I DONT USE ANY BRAKES ONCE CORNERING but if I had to, it would be gently with the back brake as it overloads the front tyre less...
 
Infact once cornering the front tyre is heavily loaded already and using the front brake on top of this is very bad advice mate..

wezdavo - that from caretaker is dreadful advice. He even admits himself it's a bad habit!!!!

[Jezzer]

Glad your ok, know how you feel with being nervous, had a couple of near misses myself last year in my first full year on a bike.  Thing that came to mind reading you post was slow down and take your time.  Approach and plan each bend every time, better slow in and accelerate out rather than fast in and fall off. 

[His Dudeness]

Seems like you have the right attitude with regards to doing the training and learning from your accident Simon so keep the head up. Most people will come off at some stage and everyone has had a moment where the survival instints have taken over so don't beat yourself up about it too much. Training and experience helps to keep you calm when things go wrong so do the training and maybe a track day and that will help you control those survival instincts better. Riding on the road is mostly about getting back in one piece rather than pushing your limits or going quick so maybe you need to change your riding style a bit. I've heard a lot of track riders don't ride on the road because they consider it too dangerous. Look at Lorenzo, he only got his road license last year I think.

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Lorenzo%20prepares%20for%20bike%20license%20test

[slimwilly]

Glad you are ok,,


slow in ,maybe down a gear or two,  power on in the corner, full power on the exit,,corners are best if powered out of.
Billy

[caretaker]

i admit it is bad advice to use any brakes on a bend, but i get everything done before cornering which is wot i should have said! i do go through a lot of front brake discs though!!

[Yamazer-92]

Glad you're okay Simon, hope the bike gets better soon too. I ride almost every day in all but ice and have yet to have my first proper off and dread the thought to be honest but try my best to not let it affect how I ride. You mentioned that you're doing a bikesafe course, I did one last year with my dad and thought it was excellent so that's a good place to start building your confidence back up.

[packie]

I admire packies honesty, perhaps not what you,me or anyone wants to read but still very honest & the other half of the tale none the less.  

...and that's all I was offering, just a bit of honesty and just to make people aware including Simon that there is more to this than  the importance of him just trying to ride a bike.

This might again sound harsh, but I just don't "buy it" that the guy is blaming his experiences on being a newbie. Weather I am driving 5 minutes as a newbie or 50 years as an experienced driver, it is my responsibility not just morally but by law to be competent, confident, and in control of my machine at all times on the road. This is not just about my own safety. This is also about expressing my safety towards you and every other road users and pedestrians.  If my bike went out of control and mowed down a toddler on that corner, I don't think a "newbie excuse" will have much comfort to his parents or my conscience....nor will it hold up in court of law. This is the reality.

So it is my responsibility at the very first sign of problems "within me" to haul my arse off the road weather I am a newbie or an experienced driver. If I feel that i'm going to be a danger to myself or others, I need to get off the road and do what I need to do to sort out those problems. Personally, I think Simon had 2 spills too many. This wasn't 2 spills brought on by other factors out of his control, this was 2 spills brought on by not being in control of his vehicle on both occasions by not being properly ready for being on the road. Pride, stubborness and persistence may be seen as good traits by some...but actually could be quite a dangerous liability IMO.

Anyway, I certainly wasn't telling Simon or anyone here what to do about his situation or to walk away from biking. I made that quite clear in my post. I was just sharing my experiences and opinions. If people don't like them, then they have the free will to ignore them.



But I have to thank Simon too for his honesty in posting here because it wasn't easy. A lot of good things have come from this thread. There has been some serious helpful and informative stuff on this thread like the two videos that were posted which will help many including myself. I like to think that I have contributed with some informative and honest stuff to this thread too. So this thread has been very worth while overall.

[mtread]

Hi Simon, glad you're OK, we've all been there 
Soft back braking is fine for bends, it can take the edge off the speed if you realise you are in too fast, but the emphasis is on soft. I've been doing it for 40 years    But don't panic and don't get anywhere near locking the rear wheel. Softly softly.
Front braking is bad for bends. you will pogo through it, and the bike will try to stand upright, cancelling out your lean.
Looking at the picture though begs another question. What gear where you in? Too high a gear and you have no engine braking to play with. In a lower gear, if you feel you are entering the bend too fast you can roll back the throttle and the bike will slow itself down, saving the need for any braking at all. Too high a gear and the bike will just carry on at its own momentum, so braking (or just pointing and hoping) are you only options.
That looks like a 3rd or 4th gear bend to me, 6th is not the only option