The great quality debate and paying extra.

[noggythenog]

the current fuel thread debate/winter warmer has got me thinking about how it seems that most folk dont believe the benefits of expensive fuel however the opposite seems to be true with tyres as most folk seem to believe that more money for a premium brand tyre is worthwhile.


Both fuels and tyres are based on simillar eveidence which is mostly how the car or bike "feels".


I will admit that i have even "thought" that one bike tyre felt different to the other which i have equated to feeling better or worse however on the flip side because it is all a "feeling" then someone else could think that they prefer the opposite to me......it is all very personal.


Back to cars - i have usualy always gone with top brand car tyres at premium prices, but a while back i had a run of getting punctures via nails and screws etc so i decided foc it i cant afford to keep replacing with premium tyres if they only last a few thousand miles before they are destroyed.....& i was pleasantly surprised with the performance of cheap tyres that i had previously shunned.


My car has just had 2 front tyres again. It was previously running the manufacturer supplied Continental Sports Contact 2 tyre which is a premium tyre. The contis had done 11500 miles and were just about at the wear bars so had circa 2mm and the car is only a little 1.2 TSI Petrol. The EU recommended tyre tread depth is 3mm. The car was slipping all over the place. Even at the recommended 3mm it was noticeably lacking at times.


I replaced my Contis with some cheap "Runway" tyres which were £55 each including vat and fitting and balancing and this worked out at about half the price of the Contis...half price is a substantial saving...they are 17 inch low profile tyres also.


Straight away i could feel the difference and the car feels much much better even though i still havent scrubbed them in. There is honestly no ill effect & the car hasnt exploded, they look good, feel good & my wallet looks good.


The tyre place gave me a sheet with the legal statistics for the EU performace grading of the tyres which is handy to view because it proves that the tyre is or isnt a quality tyre in certain areas. If i had known about this chart beforehand i would have asked them to show me various tyres at different prices to compare.......please note which i find interesting - nowhere is there any mention or requirement for dry road performance......what exactly does this tell us i wonder?


Below is a link from the net (from seat) which explains it all.


http://www.seat.co.uk/content/uk/brand/en/services-and-accessories/maintenance/tyres/tyre-safety-and-legislation.html




I've included the chart for my cheap tyres and it shows that they arent all that good on mpg......however this could mostly be inherrent for the size of wheel and rolling resistance etc so i will update once i have run a full tank of fuel as i always note my mileage.


The chart also shows that the tyre is second from best for wet weather performance which is great and i imagine only the wet weather super specific thres will score best.


So all in all not actually that bad really are they.




It gets me thinking about simillar scenarios with bike tyres and i wish we could have more blind tests as i think there is still allot of snobbery and suggestion whether intended or not and i dont think we should just trust those with vested interests. The way that i see that bike tyres are different is that the way they corner compared to cars is that over time they are deformed or squared off. This is another performance indicator that cars dont have per say.


Here is another thing to think about with car or bike and bearing in mind that my tyre had noticeably reduced performance at 3mm tread. New tread was 8mm. So that gave me an effective range of useful tread of only 5mm. If you go for a tyre that is double the price & your mate buys the cheap one then by the time the tyres are down to half of their tread (assuming equal wear) your mate then replaces his for another set of cheap ones. For the same price he could afford to buy the cheaper tyre twice within the same period. So there you are during the second half and you are running on say just under half tread whilst your mate is running on almost full tread. Which is the safest? Who will stop quicker in the wet? If it is bike tyres then whos tyre is gonna be the most squared off during that second half?


It is just food for thought that is all. What im saying is that just because you've got the fanciest, most expensive tyres does not mean that you are the safest or best performing. Much the same could be said for someone running gucci tyres but who never checks his pressures but that is more the human factor. The human factor can i think come into it with the fancy tyre for certain people. If you've forked out all that money then you're gonna get your moneys worth so are possibly more likely to run that tyre closer to its legal limits, especially if you are on a low budget so i say to folk on a budget that it is best to go cheap and buy twice.




I'm glad i've found these charts now and i want to research more now about individual tyres & prices & i hope that they exist for bikes.

[stevierst]

Always used to put cheapo tyres on my cars, but I did a lot of mileage all on m'ways. Pointless buying expensive tyres for that!
I suppose it depends again on what you use it for and how deep your pockets are!

[Dead Eye]

The market for tyres is dependant on what you want out of them, but it would be nice to get more information on the grading of bike tyres like you do with cars. I've been aware of the car tyre guide for a few years, but I tend to buy my tyres from online retailers who provide this information on the product listing. Black Circles is a big favourite, but they can be a little expensive - so I mostly use them for reference more than anything else.

As far as your car goes, the tyres you have are setup grip and aren't expensive which means you suffer on the economy and noise factor. More expensive tyres are likely to try to get better all round results or specialise in 1 or 2 of the criteria.

With my car, I have Toyo Proxies T1-R tyres - these are "premium" tyres but I got the set dirt cheap because they are "passed their sell by date". Thankfully the rubber is intact and hasn't deteriorated so I'm in no hurry to replace them. The grip in the dry is great, but they are pretty bad in the wet and likely to spin on exuberant acceleration :P I'm not sure about their economy as I haven't had anything to compare to - the car had 3 different tyre brands on when I bought it and even the two that were the same were both on the left and of different models... go figure...

As for noise... well... the exhaust note drowns any potential tyre noise out really...

[taylor]

my car is really  bad on the road noise, it makes you feel sick, so I buy top rated noise reduction, 177 a tyre, that was in a sale lol.

[noggythenog]

my car is really  bad on the road noise, it makes you feel sick, so I buy top rated noise reduction, 177 a tyre, that was in a sale lol.

Foccin ell Taylor, what car dya drive

[taylor]

only a ford kuga noggy, but they is noisy as f,,k, they asked for225, . I also drive old transits etc so is not stupid, very grounded,  the cheap ones where 90 + vat. ?? these cars have a prob with road noise, we do 30 thou a year in the car so don't want to risk it..

[mickvp]

Always used to put cheapo tyres on my cars, but I did a lot of mileage all on m'ways. Pointless buying expensive tyres for that!
I suppose it depends again on what you use it for and how deep your pockets are!

Exactly this.

I have had a few "performance" cars with 200bhp+. its pointless putting lingwongs on them, as it will totally destroy the handling of the car. for performance cars, you need good tyres IMO to get the best experience. remember some cheap tyres are also only rated to a certain speed, which is sometimes unsuitable for autobahn speeds, hence you need a better rated tyre.

However, my last car was a diesel Mondeo. average performance (130bhp), bags of torque. I never had it over 70, never rallied/raced it. I bought it as a cheap commuter which would return good MPG. that car always had cheap tyres on it with no ill effects because the aim of the car was to be as cheap as possible - I wouldnt have saw the benefit of a better tyre.

For my Golf, Ive just bought a set of 2 front tyres last week, having the same issues as you Noggy - about 2mm of tread and the car is all over the place. I'm not a big believer in "winter" tyres, but summer tyres can be ha cheap this time of year. Just got a set of 2 Goodyear efficientgrip performance tyre (in 225/40/18) for £90 each fitted. not too bad for a performance tyre IMO.

The noise/economy/wet grip figures look good too, but ive not used them a great deal yet:

http://www.blackcircles.com/catalogue/goodyear/efficientgrip-performance/225/40/R18/W/92/m?returnurl=%2forder%2ftyres%3f%26width%3d225%26profile%3d40%26rim%3dR18%26speed%3dAny%26wintertyre%3dwintertyre&tyre=32248041

Worth noting that black circles shows those specs for all car tyres on their site - so its a good source to use even just to compare those figures.

On the issue of noise - I think a lot of their "rating" is hokum. yes - you can measure the level of noise coming from the tyre, but you cant measure how those acoustic frequencies will react when fitted to a specific car. It is possible for the "quietest" tyre to be noisier than another "noisier" tyre on a given car, due to the way the acoustics react - maybe the level of noise is at a different frequency which will react better inside the chassis.


I think im rambling again... I better stop

[mickvp]

Oh, and sorry Noggy - you dont get the ratings for Bike tyres (not yet at least):

http://www.blackcircles.com/general/tyre-labelling

[Hedgetrimmer]

Fazer 1000 gen 1 

Shell V Power 

Michelin Pilot Road 2 

Silkolene Comp 4 semi synthetic 

Yellow paintwork 


 


 


/thread

[taylor]

that was a lot to take in  , what I am saying not being a tyre expert?? is go with the advise given. the car forum people said the same thing, I didn't want to waste 160 on shit tyre,s just to then have the missus complaining. I am happy in the van .saying that 8mm van tyres are now 75 a pop, and that's cheap ones.

[mickvp]

that was a lot to take in  , what I am saying not being a tyre expert?? is go with the advise given. the car forum people said the same thing, I didn't want to waste 160 on shit tyre,s just to then have the missus complaining. I am happy in the van .saying that 8mm van tyres are now 75 a pop, and that's cheap ones.

exactly mate, thats all you can do is go on the info you have got. especially when your tyres are so expensive, you can hardly take a gamble on £100+ "cheap" tyres in the hope they will be quieter, when the noise rating clearly says they arent.

Anyway - how did a thread about "quality" turn into a tyre thread

it depends what it is I think - sometimes you do get what you pay for, sometimes you dont.

I'll tell you one thing you DONT always get what you pay for - car wax! I've used loads over the ladt few years, and in my experience this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/251118359749?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

is every bit as good a this (save for it being slightly harder to buff off - granted):

http://www.swissvax.co.uk/product_detail/wax_products/crystal_rock_state_of_the_art_car_wax_by_paul_dalton

[BIG MAC]

BMWs have runflat tyres and the choice is minimal - I replaced the Bridgestone Potenzas with Kumho Ecsta...still pricey but actually perform better in my opinion..the Bridgestones are too bliddy hard

[noggythenog]

Mick...this is a tyre by stealth thread .......i did tell Nick and VNA that it would happen for their sins


Good comments so far i see. Noise to me is really irrelevent......i think after owning a Suzuki ignis sport then any car will seem quiet as it was a tin box on wheels.  I went to scotland and back in that thing and i think it was noisier than taking the FZ1.  plus i only do 10k a year.......plus my last car it wouldnt have mattered how noisy the tyres were because the diesel 3 cylinder engine was so foccin noisy


But what about the emperors new clothes syndrome and what about looking at food shopping..........so most folk now agree that ALDI can produce some top quality goods that taste as good or better than the other supermarkets high priced stuff.........cheap wines that are winning blind tests........they just have unheard of names on them.....so why is it impossible to think that the same could not be said of tyres?


If a cheap tyre has the same speed rating & wet performance stats then surely it makes sense to buy it instead?


One thing i will say is this.......if the cheap tyres were really so good then why do the big manufacturers not put them on cars as standard?......but maybe there are other more sinister reasons for that.


does anyone know why dry weather performance is not included on the stats?

[taylor]

i think you get what you pay for. my work mate ate a scotch egg from aldi 2 weeks on the sick,..

[noggythenog]

i think you get what you pay for. my work mate ate a scotch egg from aldi 2 weeks on the sick,..

 

[taylor]

 

[mickvp]

BMWs have runflat tyres and the choice is minimal - I replaced the Bridgestone Potenzas with Kumho Ecsta...still pricey but actually perform better in my opinion..the Bridgestones are too bliddy hard

cant you just buy a spare wheel& tyre and bin the runflats for "normal" tyres?

[noggythenog]

BMWs have runflat tyres and the choice is minimal - I replaced the Bridgestone Potenzas with Kumho Ecsta...still pricey but actually perform better in my opinion..the Bridgestones are too bliddy hard

cant you just buy a spare wheel& tyre and bin the runflats for "normal" tyres?

I think it voids the warranty

[mickvp]

BMWs have runflat tyres and the choice is minimal - I replaced the Bridgestone Potenzas with Kumho Ecsta...still pricey but actually perform better in my opinion..the Bridgestones are too bliddy hard

cant you just buy a spare wheel& tyre and bin the runflats for "normal" tyres?

I think it voids the warranty

ah... maybe your right

Something I never think about - I've never had a car thats new enough to worry about "warranty"

[Andy FZS]

I'm not sure if they have improved run flats but mine seem fine. Noggy did you say new tyres at 11000m?  My last car 4x4 did 30k on the origional tyres wifes fiesta is 11 plate 11k miles origional tyres have loads left on them. Am I just good on tyre or what milage do others get? Bmw only done 2k miles so I'm not sure how they will last as yet compared to normal tyres.

[noggythenog]

I'm not sure if they have improved run flats but mine seem fine. Noggy did you say new tyres at 11000m?  My last car 4x4 did 30k on the origional tyres wifes fiesta is 11 plate 11k miles origional tyres have loads left on them. Am I just good on tyre or what milage do others get? Bmw only done 2k miles so I'm not sure how they will last as yet compared to normal tyres.

Yeh Andy, 11500 for the fronts, the rears still have about 4mm on them, and it is only a little skoda fabia estate, my last one was a diesel but the same car and it wasnt much better, 2 tyres every year.......im all stop start driving though with barely any motorway driving.


I had a little 1.5 diesel clio 5 years ago as a company car and it was even worse......luckily the company paid for them because it was such a good handling little car that it used tear out all 4 tyres pretty quickly.


Think i used to get about 8000 miles outta bridgestone potenzas on my old type-r civic.


Admittedly im a bit heavy footed......half my time spent trying to test my mpg meter on the car to the extreme and then the other half just normal ish type stuff.......ok i do boot it a bit.

[Dead Eye]

I really hope I get more than 10k miles on a set of car tyres... I try to aim for 30k+ !!

[slimwilly]

Tyre buyer guide


http://tyresearch.telegraph.co.uk/

[stevierst]

We use run flats on the BMW's at work (530d/330d) and they're pretty good imho. We kick the living daylights out of them on a daily basis, and they're as grippy as the rest, but I don't pay for the tyres, so can't say about how long they last.

And cheapo tyres performance, well it's not always 'you get what you pay for'.
Hankook, and a few other brands were laughed at for being cheap and nasty a few years ago, not so much now, they run their own race series! (i see another maxxis influence here).

I've always been a believer that consumer pressure and clever advertising keep us buying costly brands, as its almost propaganda-esque to keep them selling to the 'believers'.

I used cheapo tyres on my high performance cars over the last couple of decades (xr4i/xr4x4, 620ti, BMW325i) purely because I did 30+k/pa and to be honest they have got a lot better recently! I even saw track tests done by independent journalists, and there wasn't a great difference in track times between them. Some of them still said it was mind over matter with the cheaper brands.

You get what you pay for??? Not necessarily!!!
 More like you think you get what you pay too much for!

[greg1953]

Back in the mid 90s we had a 205 diesel doing 25,000 per year, I fitted a set of Polish " Stommel " tyres as they were very cheap however they weren't great in the dry but in the wet they were plain dangerous, locking up on braking and sliding on corners. Since then I've used all sorts of tyres on my A4 & Golf with no issues and Stommel  seem to have vanished from the market, thank heavens.
Greg