The horrible word again - TPS problems - Fazer 600 year 2000

[iJoshL]

Hello everyone,


I'm having a few problems that I've spent the past week trying to sort out. My bike is the fazer 600 year 2000


It started when my rev counter started playing up, got home red the handbook and finally found out that it was actually giving me the 3.000k TPS fault code. As the bike is still running fine, no starting problems or running problems I took the route of unplugging the TPS, gave it a clean, checked the wires then plugged it back in.


Started it up. Let it idle for a while and no more 3k fault code, took it for a spin and 20 miles later noticed my rev counter bouncing around again, pulled over and again 3k fault came up.


Took it home, unplugged it again resetted the bike using the throttle method and plugged the TPS back, once again no more fault code, then as a test to see if it is faulty I unplugged it and then started the bike, sure enough it came up with the 3k warning again.


I've raped google so much my brain now hurts so I'm turning to you guys in the hope you can just answer me a few questions I have.


1, is there any more ways I can test the TPS to make sure it's 100% faulty other then just unplugging it to see if the code comes up?


2, If it is faulty do I actually need it? I've heard of people just putting in a blanking plug.


Finally 3, yamaha want £190 for a new unit, ( they can whistle ) I've red on google that a TPS off a bandit 1200 or a ZX6R would fit the fazer, as long as it has A2 stamped on it, does this mean any TPS with A2 on would fit? I'm finding it really hard to find a second hand one from a fazer 600.


Sorry this post is so long but I'm at my wits end now and the bouncing off the rev counter is an annoying reminder that I have a fault.


Thanks in advance everyone.

[darrsi]

  All of the above!!!

I can't believe i only read this post 30mins ago and exactly the same thing has happened to my bike on the way home from work 

[otis]

Have you tried testing the TPS position not just unplugging it. Haynes manual takes you through it. It might just need adjusted.

[unfazed]

 [font=]
Faulty Throttle position Sensors (TPS) on the early carburettor model Fazers.
 Over the years I have replaced 4 in total, one on a Fazer 400 and the 2 on the Fazer 600s. The latest being my own 600 when servicing it last weekend. I replaced them with second hand ones from breakers.
 The idle of my own was becoming more unstable in the last few weeks but was running ok and as it was due on Oil, Oil Filter Fuel Filter, plug change and balance the carburettors. After doing all of the above I went to set the TPS and could not set the Rev counter from 10000 back to 5000 without removing the screws of the TPS and moving it beyond the range of adjustments slots by almost 10mm. Out with the multi meter to check the TPS and found it was outside the ranges specified in the Service Manual by 1.290kohms. Since the TPS operates by varying the voltage levels being returned to the Ignitor unit (ECU) 1.290Kohm out of spec was giving completely the wrong voltage levels, which was telling the ignitor to adjust the timing to the wrong values. The first 3 faulty units I replaced were tested and were found to be open circuit with no reading between two of the three contacts and had the 3000 rev code on the rev counter, my own one however was different in that it gave a high resistance which does not show the 3000 rev fault code.
 I bought a second hand one from a breaker and while waiting for it to arrive I decided to do a little internet checking to determine what other bikes might use the same TPS since it is manufactured by Mikuni and here is what I found. The Mikuni TPS with A1 stamped on the side nearest the Carburettor. The same fitment of TPS come with A1, A2 or A3 stamped on them. I have tested the one with A2 stamped on it and the readings are the same as the A1, but unfortunately I have not been able to source an A3 one to test.
 Kawasaki and Suzuki also use exactly the same unit on some of their bikes.
 Here is the killer punch, a brand new one with a Yamaha OEM part number is around €230 (£190) the exact same one with the Kawasaki OEM part number is around €130 (£107) and the exact same one with a Suzuki OEM part number is around €80 (£66). Prices vary a little depending on where you shop
 The Fazer 600 part number is: 4SV-85885-00 and has been superseded by 4HD-85885-00
 Kawasaki part number 21176-1083 and it can be A1, A2 or A3. This leads me to believe that they are newer versions of the A1
 Suzuki part number 13550-13D60 and the following Suzuki models use this TPS and can be A1, A2 or A3.
 
 It was because the Idle was varying between 1000r to 1400 revs that I checked the carburettor balance and the TPS settings.
 The idle has improved and now stays around the 1250 mark. As I changed the plugs which had 30000 miles on them it is difficult to determine if the idle problem was due to worn plugs or faulty TPS since the carb balance was ok.
 [/font]

[darrsi]

That's all very handy to know, cheers 


I was riding to work this morning and i just caught the rev counter needle dropping to zero out the corner of my eye, then noticed the occasional needle at 3000rpm, but i was travelling around those revs anyway so didn't take too much notice to be honest.
But on the way home i kept an eye on it and it was intermittently dropping to zero then 3000 then back to normal.
When i got home i unplugged it and gave it a blow out with a can of air in case i got a bit of water in the connection when i jet washed the bike on Sunday before spraying the engine.
Turned ignition on when unplugged and it showed 3000.
But when i plugged it back in and switched the engine on the idle is spot on, not moving at all around the 1200 mark.
I've sprayed a bit of WD40 on it for now and i'll see what happens again tomorrow.
I tested it about 3 or 4 months ago and it went to 5000rpm, but i've not tampered with it in any way at all.


If i need to get one eventually is this the only part i need then?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Suzuki-GSX750-99-Sensor-Assy-13550-13D60-New-/130807151192?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item1e74b6ba58

[Kentish]

I never play with TPS. You can end up with a big bill if you don;t know what your doing..Take it to someone who knows

[iJoshL]

I didn't play with the position of the TPS Otis as I just assumed it was dead, however unfazed's post was quite interesting and actually mentions something I was next going to ask,

My local mechanic phoned me earlier to say he had a TPS from a yamaha diversion and that it came from a working bike, anyway I picked it up, went home, plugged it in set the position of it to the same as the old one and fired the bike up, started straight away, idled nicely, and no more 3k fault code. Took it for a 20 minute ride and everything is still perfect, only thing that is bugging me now is, the new one I now have on it is stamped A1 and not A2 like my old was, is this going to cause a problem? It's made by the same people who made my old one so surely it should be ok, what's th difference between A1 and A2?

[darrsi]

I didn't play with the position of the TPS Otis as I just assumed it was dead, however unfazed's post was quite interesting and actually mentions something I was next going to ask,

My local mechanic phoned me earlier to say he had a TPS from a yamaha diversion and that it came from a working bike, anyway I picked it up, went home, plugged it in set the position of it to the same as the old one and fired the bike up, started straight away, idled nicely, and no more 3k fault code. Took it for a 20 minute ride and everything is still perfect, only thing that is bugging me now is, the new one I now have on it is stamped A1 and not A2 like my old was, is this going to cause a problem? It's made by the same people who made my old one so surely it should be ok, what's th difference between A1 and A2?

Blimey that was quick, nice work, glad you got it sorted so easily 
Can i ask you what the cost of a 2nd hand one was, i've done a bike breaker search and wouldn't mind a rough idea?

[darrsi]

Okay, i've just done the diagnostic test again and the rev counter shot up to 10,000.
 
Is this a simple case of undoing the two screws and moving it slightly?
Does the rev needle move about as i move the TPS?

[otis]

Just undo the two screws a bit and rotate TPS until needle reads 5000 ( I believe) and that should be it set

[darrsi]

Just undo the two screws a bit and rotate TPS until needle reads 5000 ( I believe) and that should be it set

Okay Otis, i'll give that a go when i get home if i can find someone with the right tools at work, cheers fella.
The bike itself seems to be totally behaving, it's just the needle jumping about, i presume when it says 3000 it's indicating that it's either not positioned correctly or it's knackered?
I've not touched it at all so don't know why it should suddenly go out of spec?
 
Just got hold of the right torx tool anyway, that was handy 

[unfazed]

In answer to a few questions posted
Darrsi, From what I have come accross the Suzuki ones will fit and I bought mine for a €15
The TPS is adjusted at idle at full operating temperature and if you adjust the idle screw after adjusting the TPS, the TPS will read incorrectly.
Set the idle first and then undo the secure torx bolts move the TPS until it is at 5 and tighten the bolts again. If it changes as you tighten readjust it.
Increasing the idle will send it to 10000, decreasing the idle will send it to 0. Adjust it at full operating temperature and idle speed set correctly. After setting the TPS open and close the throttle before resetting the ignition the rev counter should swing to 10000 and back to 5000.
Many people set the TPs and idle before the engine reaches full operating temperatures and then turn the idle up or down when at full operating temperature which put out the TPS adjustment.
It is the physical location of the throttle stop screw which determins the TPS setting. The increase in speed as the engine heats does not effect the TPS
The 3000 code indicates that the TPS is open circuit, there is no indication for out of adjustment. The ignitor expects a to see resistance not open circuit.
Hope this answers the questions.
 

[darrsi]

In answer to a few questions posted
Darrsi, From what I have come accross the Suzuki ones will fit and I bought mine for a €15
The TPS is adjusted at idle at full operating temperature and if you adjust the idle screw after adjusting the TPS, the TPS will read incorrectly.
Set the idle first and then undo the secure torx bolts move the TPS until it is at 5 and tighten the bolts again. If it changes as you tighten readjust it.
Increasing the idle will send it to 10000, decreasing the idle will send it to 0. Adjust it at full operating temperature and idle speed set correctly. After setting the TPS open and close the throttle before resetting the ignition the rev counter should swing to 10000 and back to 5000.
Many people set the TPs and idle before the engine reaches full operating temperatures and then turn the idle up or down when at full operating temperature which put out the TPS adjustment.
It is the physical location of the throttle stop screw which determins the TPS setting. The increase in speed as the engine heats does not effect the TPS
The 3000 code indicates that the TPS is open circuit, there is no indication for out of adjustment. The ignitor expects a to see resistance not open circuit.
Hope this answers the questions.

The idle is spot on, in fact the bike is working okay, just the 10,000 code now, after i sort the needle problem out.
I would do it straight after work so the engine will still be hot.

[darrsi]

All good now, once i put the rev counter needle back in the correct position i adjusted the TPS until it was back at the 5000rpm mark. 

Just one question, why does the TPS need adjusting anyway?
It was all done up very tight, so what creates the error code?

[unfazed]

The ignitor controls the code setting.
TPS is used to fine tune the ignition timing. The ignitor controls the ignition timing and uses the engine speed to set it and TPS to fine tune it.
As the engine speed rises the timing is advanced to allow the fuel air mixture time to burn to ensure peak combustion pressure.
In the older engines the advance was controled mechanical weights and springs using centrigufal force, but spring tension weakened as the engine aged thus giving the incorrect advance.
The engine speed and TPS via the ignitor give better control of the timing for given throttle opening and engine speed and does not have the wear issue of the older system.
That is the short version of why

[darrsi]

 
 
Okay, riding in to work this morning and the rev needle went to 0rpm three times within 6 miles but then quickly went back to normal speed, it never went to 3000rpm at all?
 
Any ideas what that could mean?

[Paul]

I understand that when your rev needle drops to 0 rpm three times in six miles it's a message from God telling you to go out on a Friday night and drink eight pints of strong beer, have a curry and see if you can score.

[darrsi]

I understand that when your rev needle drops to 0 rpm three times in six miles it's a message from God telling you to go out on a Friday night and drink eight pints of strong beer, have a curry and see if you can score.

I had that one planned already! 

[darrsi]

Right, i just spoke to Yamaha HQ and apparently there is no fault code just for 0rpm.
And he said if my TPS was faulty then the bike would be stuttering at low revs or simply cutting out.
 
They have suggested i might have either a wiring problem to my clocks or my clocks are on the way out?
This is not going to be fun solving this one     
 
It has just been brought to my attention that this problem started on the Monday after i jet washed the bike before spraying it on Sunday!!!
I think i'm gonna need to take the bike for a blast and get the engine hot, and also get some air flowing in case i have condensation in the wiring somewhere!

[iJoshL]

Sorry for the late reply, completely forgot about this post i made untill this afternoon.


I feel your pain Darrsi, it took me a whole week to work out my TPS problem and like i said in the start of my post me and my mechanic at first thought it was fault clocks as R6's and R1's and well known for faulty clocks.


I paid £0 for my TPS as my mechanic found an old one laying around in his workshop still attached to a set of carbs so i was extremely lucky and owe him a couple of pints as a thank you.


To be fair with you if your clocks were working perfectly fine before the 3K problems started on your bike then i wouldn't be looking for a set of new clocks, i would be looking at getting a second hand TPS for as cheap as you can mate, Maybe off of a Kawasaki ZX6R, Diversion, or as far as know any TPS that came off of a working carb'ed bike.

[iJoshL]

I forgot to mention Darrsi, even when i had my TPS fault code my bike was running fine, yes a slight flat spot in the rev range but nothing that would slow me down on a Motorway. Its been 3 days since i've replaced my TPS and the bike is running perfectly fine, no fault code, no nothing. I really don't think you have fault clocks buddy.

[darrsi]

I forgot to mention Darrsi, even when i had my TPS fault code my bike was running fine, yes a slight flat spot in the rev range but nothing that would slow me down on a Motorway. Its been 3 days since i've replaced my TPS and the bike is running perfectly fine, no fault code, no nothing. I really don't think you have fault clocks buddy.

Does seem a bit of a coincidence about the jet washing though, i did give it a good blast trying to degrease the engine, and as it only showed the 0rpm on the clock this morning it's all a bit random, especially as Yamaha HQ said that 0rpm is not an error code on it's own.
It was my electronics engineer at work that suggested i may have water or condensation in my wiring somewhere that could be causing things to misbehave.
As the bike appears to be running okay at the moment i will try and get the bike up to temperature for a while and see if it helps at all?
It's offputting though as i can't keep my eyes off the rev counter, wondering what it'll do next.
Also i set the TPS to 5000rpm okay so in theory that should be alright.

[iJoshL]

when i was running my old TPS and it turned faulty when i was riding and rolled off the throttle it would go straight down to 0rpm for 3 seconds but then go back up to 3k. take it for a good ride in dry weather ( a bit hard in the UK at the moment i know) and just see what goes on next mate.

[darrsi]

when i was running my old TPS and it turned faulty when i was riding and rolled off the throttle it would go straight down to 0rpm for 3 seconds but then go back up to 3k. take it for a good ride in dry weather ( a bit hard in the UK at the moment i know) and just see what goes on next mate.

That was the puzzling thing, it doesn't go to the 3000 point, very strange?
Looks like i'm about to get pissed on as well, the sky is very dark outside, so that ain't gonna help matters either!

[flyingmythos]

I just bought a fazer 600 v reg and it didn't have a tps just a smashed casing, found 1 on bike hut for £38!!!! fitted yesterday and guessed how to set it, runs ok I think, shame my carbs are dripping coolant