Date: 28-03-24  Time: 16:36 pm

Author Topic: Cam Chain Replacement  (Read 4051 times)

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Cam Chain Replacement
« on: 08 October 2021, 06:13:01 am »
Hi all,

I am replacing my cam chain on my 1998 FZS600 (~70k km). I have read through the service manual, the haynes manual and some of the forum posts as well as youtube videos. So I have a good idea about what I need to do, though I do have some questions.
  • What's a good way to secure the new rivet linked cam chain to the old cam chain while pulling it through?
    I'm thinking some string or a zip tie where the rivet should be, though I'm keen to see what other people have done.

  • Do I need to replace the cylinder head cover gasket?
    I've seen this recommended in the service manual, though have not seen any mention of needing to replace it elsewhere.

  • Is it necessary to remove the radiator?
    Seen this in the service manual but not in haynes.

  • How many rivets are there on the cam chain between the marks on the sprockets?
    I will probably end up working this out by lining everything up properly but it would be a good additional check.

  • Do you have any tips or hints?
Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: 08 October 2021, 06:16:32 am by CountFazer »

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #1 on: 08 October 2021, 08:54:58 am »
I am replacing my cam chain on my 1998 FZS600 (~70k km).

First why are you changing it at only 43k miles?   They go easily to 70k plus I service bikes with well over 100k on the original chains. If it's being noisy chances are it needs the tensioner resetting.

What's a good way to secure the new rivet linked cam chain to the old cam chain while pulling it through?

I'm thinking some string or a zip tie where the rivet should be, though I'm keen to see what other people have done.

Personally I don't use split link or soft link cam chains.  The former just isn't strong enough and the latter often is either over tight or too loose both will shorten chain life, I've seen DIY replaced chains fail in under 3k.  Fit endless, yes it's a bit more work and expense but it won't fail and last as mentioned 70k plus. 

It you must use a split/soft link, slide the new chain on to the old, thread some thin solid copper wire through the links, in a criss/cross pattern.  Make sure the ends are on the outside, twist off the ends and fold flat, pull the chain through by rotating the crank.         

Do I need to replace the cylinder head cover gasket?

If it's the original chances are it will be brittle or well on it's way to getting there.  Thoroughly check it, it should be very pliable, no cracks, the surfaces should feel like a new O ring.  If not replace.       

Is it necessary to remove the radiator?

No, but it's a faff and will get in the way, my recommendation remove it.

How many rivets are there on the cam chain between the marks on the sprockets?
I will probably end up working this out by lining everything up properly but it would be a good additional check.

Irrelevant, use the correct timing chain, line up all the datum marks.  There is no other adjustment.   

Do you have any tips or hints?

Don't fit split or soft link.

Don't attempt it unless you are confident of your ability, have somewhere undercover, out of the wind to do it and have all the required tools and parts.

Male sure any slack is at the back, if you got any at the front the timing is out and you run the risk of wrecking the motor.   
Later

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #2 on: 08 October 2021, 09:57:14 am »
Thanks Gnasher for your very detailed response.


First why are you changing it at only 43k miles?


The cam chain is rattling pretty loud. Here's a video. https://youtu.be/mAQfPnmdCBw
I've checked the CCT and it is at the 9th click of 12 which makes me think the problem is the cam chain.
Funnily enough, I recently got a parts bike (FZS600 1999) with the same mileage and very little cam chain sound. At this point I am unsure which will become the main bike as the parts bike needs work too. But for now I am committed to replacing the cam chain on my project.

Personally I don't use split link or soft link cam chains.  The former just isn't strong enough and the latter often is either over tight or too loose both will shorten chain life, I've seen DIY replaced chains fail in under 3k.  Fit endless, yes it's a bit more work and expense but it won't fail and last as mentioned 70k plus. It you must use a split/soft link, slide the new chain on to the old, thread some thin solid copper wire through the links, in a criss/cross pattern.  Make sure the ends are on the outside, twist off the ends and fold flat, pull the chain through by rotating the crank. 


I've got a soft link chain for the replacement as I'm trying to avoid the work involved in installing an endless chain. Thanks for your warning about compressing the rivet and for the explanation for pulling through the new cam chain.




Don't attempt it unless you are confident of your ability, have somewhere undercover, out of the wind to do it and have all the required tools and parts.Male sure any slack is at the back, if you got any at the front the timing is out and you run the risk of wrecking the motor.   



I've done a fair bit of research and I'm confident that if I take it slow I can work it out. The main things that I will be focusing on are
  • Cam cap removal and installation - ensuring not to bend cam shafts from the forces applied by compressed valve springs.
    I think the sequence for this is outlined in the Haynes manual.
  • Timing - lining up all datum marks & ensuring there's no slack between crank and exhaust cam gear.
    This makes sense because the CCT is between the intake cam gear and the crankshaft.
    I'll turn the crank over a few times at the end to ensure timing datum still line up.
  • Rivet link installation
  • Keeping mated surfaces together
« Last Edit: 08 October 2021, 10:15:45 am by CountFazer »

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #3 on: 08 October 2021, 11:05:45 am »

The cam chain is rattling pretty loud. Here's a video. https://youtu.be/mAQfPnmdCBw

That noise isn't a knackered cam chain IMHO, just one that needs some slack taking out of it. 

Judging by the condition of your bike, it's one that's been well looked after and not used a great deal.  With that often comes very careful use, too careful and the engine isn't revved as it should be often enough.  ;)  Take the bike out, get it thoroughly warmed up, find a nice long road that's not too busy or a dual carriage or motorway.  Now give the bike some proper revs, I mean red line, in 2, 3& 4 and hold it at 10k for a while, depending on the road you can go into higher gears as the speed will allow you. 

Do the above a good view times, the noise will go possibly straight away if not within a few rides.  Do it every couple months or just rev the bike to at least 10k once a week.  And/or reset the tensioner they get stuck again due to engine not being revved hard enough.

One tooth is a lot of adjustment, the tensioner are on 7 or 8 when new.       
Later

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #4 on: 10 October 2021, 05:56:34 am »
Thanks Gnasher for your advice. I've taken it into consideration and decided to take the bike out to spread its wings. I just need some new tires as the old ones are 10 yrs old and have dry rot.

I was surprised to learn that the tensions are already at 7 or 8 when new. In a way, this would mean that my cam chain is around 40% worn (if starting at 7) instead of 75% worn (if starting at 1) which I was thinking before. But of course, this assumes cam chain age can be measured by stretch alone, which is an oversimplification.

Judging by the condition of your bike, it's one that's been well looked after and not used a great deal.


I hope you're right. I don't know much about the history other than it hasn't seen much action in the last 10 years. The rest can only be inferred from the things I find while working on, and soon riding, the bike.
« Last Edit: 10 October 2021, 06:00:20 am by CountFazer »

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #5 on: 10 October 2021, 09:24:23 am »
As far as I'm aware no chain tensioner starts at the beginning/No1 of it's range they all start in the middle ish.  All tolerances on chains and sprockets, gears cams etc vary, which means any given new cam chain could have 5mm or so more free play than another.  But they should wear at the same rate, i.e. chain A starts at position 6 chain B at 7, the service tolerance is say 15mm each tooth is takes up say 5mm.  To reach max service life chain B is on 10 out of 12.   What often happens is the wear just isn't enough to get over the tensioner tooth high point by just the spring tension alone, it needs a little help.  By revving the engine into it's higher rev range it stresses the chain just enough to allow the tension spring to overcome the chain pressure to get over the tooth high point and then settle back engaged the next tooth, but taken up that extra 0.5 mm or so.   :)

I'd be amazed based on that video if your chain is shot, just rev it  ;)
Later

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #6 on: 13 December 2021, 02:14:40 am »
Hi Gnasher, thanks for all your messages on this topic. They’ve been very helpful.


An update on the cam chain noise:


I’ve finally been able to get my fazer registered (I just recently got my full license and can now ride it). It has been taken out for a 280km ride, some parts which were quite spirited. I got up to 10k+ rpm quite a few times and I tried to keep the revs in the upper range in the twisties. Unfortunately the cam chain noise remains. Here’s an updated video of the sound [size=78%]https://youtu.be/2wT8M6de9y8[/size]


After my ride I tried to fix the problem by manually pushing the tensioner in by 1 click. It didn’t budge. I took out the tensioner completely and bumped it along a click but when putting it back in there was clearance between the tensioner and the engine block. I didn’t want to force it and I figured that the cam chain wasn’t ready for the next click.
At present the tensioner is on the 9th click with 3 clicks left.


I’m not sure where to go from here. Should I go for some more rides?
Could the problem be something else or might my cam chain be actually worn out?


It’d be great to hear what you or anyone else reckons.


Cheers
« Last Edit: 13 December 2021, 02:15:22 am by CountFazer »

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #7 on: 14 December 2021, 01:02:45 pm »
What I'm hearing isn't typical worn cam chain noise.

Your idle speed is too slow should be at least 1150 - 1250 and I'd check the carb balance and pilot bleed screw setting, all make a big difference if out of spec and will give you the noise you've got. 

That said the noise isn't that bad, does it get louder as the revs rise or stays the same?
Later

b1k3rdude

  • Foc-u Helpful Foccer
  • Global Moderator
  • GP Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,404
    • Main bike:
      FZ1 Faired Gen2
    • - GSF 1250
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #8 on: 14 December 2021, 09:57:28 pm »
I took out the tensioner completely and bumped it along a click but when putting it back in there was clearance between the tensioner and the engine block. I didn’t want to force it and I figured that the cam chain wasn’t ready for the next click.
Gnasher will correct me if wrong, but you should only adjust the tensionor when its installed in the engine. Check with Gnasher when, your supposed to set the tension (hot or cold engine).

@Gnasher, is it possible the noise is then a poorly adjusted tappet..? 

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #9 on: 15 December 2021, 09:20:21 am »
Gnasher will correct me if wrong, but you should only adjust the tensionor when its installed in the engine.

Correct, the centre bolt is removed to allow the tension to be released, before you undo and remove the tensioner, it's then refitted in reverse order.  Once the tensioner is out of the cylinder block, you should inspect all the components for wear/missing/damaged teeth etc and test for smooth one way operation.  Replace if worn or it's not smooth.

Check with Gnasher when, your supposed to set the tension (hot or cold engine).

Cold

@Gnasher, is it possible the noise is then a poorly adjusted tappet..?

There are no tappets i.e. screw/lock nut, just inverted bucket and shims.  As such there's no adjustment other than replacing the shim.  Bucket and shim tend not to tap and they tighten during use (valve seat wear) which is the opposite for tappets.

The noise I'm hearing is as I've stated in my last post.  It always possible for a cam chain to fail at this low milage, but in my experience that would be very unusual.  I know of only 2 that have failed, one was because the owner removed the tensioner and forgot to one of the balls back in.  The second owner rebuilt the engine due to a lack of oil and didn't refit the front chain guide.

I've never had in that has failed due to wear or component failure.  I still see bikes with beyond 130k miles running on their original chains and tensioners.     

     
Later

bazza

  • CBT Wobbler
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - triumph bonneville '#03974 t120
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #10 on: 17 December 2021, 02:30:56 pm »
having listened to the 2 videos, I would say you need to get yourself a carbtune and balance them carbs,and if you think thats a clattery cam chain you need to have a listen to an old air cooled top end, then you'll realise how quiet yours is. But you can always put a screwdriver to the top end and put that to your ear and listen for any clonking

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #11 on: 23 December 2021, 09:36:30 am »
When I checked the tensioner there was no visible wear. Based on all the evidence so far I think you're right that it's not the cam chain. I'm glad I didnt go through the job of replacing it only to come back to the same issue.


I've balanced the carbs, but the noise remains.


The noise actually seems loudest at the level of the intake camshaft. It gets slightly louder with increased revs and it doesn't quieten once the bike is warm.


Where would I find the pilot bleed screw? I've had a search in the manual and didn't find anything on this.

bazza

  • CBT Wobbler
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - triumph bonneville '#03974 t120
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #12 on: 23 December 2021, 04:16:54 pm »
I dont recon you will find anything relating to a pilot bleed screw because I've never heard of one. It's called pilot air screw and if its a 98/99 ( there is one on each carb,)  screw it all the way in (counting the turns in) then set them 2 turns out, as long as you counted the full complete turn in then you will know if they were set correct to start with, although the 2 turns out is only a rough guide to get them all set equally

Gnasher

  • Foc-u Brake Doctor
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,601
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - ZX10R, XJR1300, X10, GSF1000GT
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #13 on: 23 December 2021, 04:28:37 pm »
It's called pilot air screw


One and the same thing  ;)
Later

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #14 on: 23 December 2021, 08:31:21 pm »
Ahh yes the idle mixture screws. I’ve set them already - starting at 2 turns out and then adjusting each until strongest revs we’re achieved. I don’t think this is the issue. Is there anything else that could be causing this?

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #15 on: 26 December 2021, 04:18:40 am »
In the case of cam chain wear due to oil starvation would you not except as much stretching compared to normal cam chain wear? I’m beginning to think that if the CCT is fine and the cam chain isnt stretched enough for the next click, then maybe the cam chain is still worn but due to oil starvation.

Paul

  • Weekend Warrior
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • - FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #16 on: 17 February 2022, 11:52:07 am »
My old Fazer managed 110,000 miles on the original cam chain.  The cam chain tensioner had clicked its last click by this time.  Are you sure you need a new cam chain?

CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #17 on: 19 February 2022, 12:50:58 pm »
The tensioner has done its job and clicked over, so there's no more cam chain rattle. A decent amount of unnecessary work was avoided by holding off and doing some further troubleshooting.

gtangas

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 2
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #18 on: 11 May 2022, 11:46:51 am »
It happen the same to my 98 boxeye.


The noise was present only with the engine cold very similiar to this videos.


Removed the CCT and it was at the 7 mark.


Maybe after a month the noise simple dissapeared.




CountFazer

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 22
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Cam Chain Replacement
« Reply #19 on: 11 May 2022, 12:01:32 pm »
Fortunately, based on the advice on here I decided on holding off replacing the cam chain. I had all the tools and parts right there ready to go. Then the rattle just stopped. I’m now at the 10th mark on the CCT. Glad I held off.