Experiences with Ivan Kit

[jul1us]

Hello,


I'm a new user here, my name is Julius and I'm from Munich, Germany. Been reading a lot here and really appreciate this place.


I just got my first gen1 FZS 1000 and since it's a bit cold to right at the moment, I'm thinking about what tinkering I'll be doing.


The first thing is the Ivan MB Kit (along with the other usual mods) and a post on Facebook caught my attention.


Basically, he recommended simply rejetting instead of the Ivan Kit and also claimed:


"Drilling slide lift holes and clipping spring gives fast throttle response but usually at the expense of driveability."


So, I was wondering if there was anybody who has made this experience, and maybe felt that relaxed cruising was not possible anymore or even went back from the Ivan Kit?


For those interested, these is his entire post:

The FZS1000 carburation can be adjusted to run well in a bike with standard airbox/filter and standard exhaust or slipon (I’m using Akrapovic) without resorting to jet kits. This bike is set to run lean low down and rich up top - found after I had a fuelling check done by a respected dyno operator.
To fix the lean issue I fitted one size larger pilot jets (#17.5) set Pilot screws to 3.1/4 turns out. It’s not ideal but the stock #15 pilot jets can be used with Pilot screws set to 4.3/4 turns out.
Set float height to the standard 13mm which make fuel level the standard 3 to 4mm
Standard needles in standard position 3rd groove from top with the std 3mm nylon needle spacers are fine. Fuelling air/fuel ratio is flat so needle tapers are about right.
I’ve heard that some bikes have 2.5mm spacers? so these may need raising 0.5mm.
Fit 2 size smaller main jets to fix rich top end Main Jets - 127.5 on the outsides cyls 1 and 4, 125 on inside cyls 2 and 3.
That’s it.

[Gaz66]

Hi Julius & welcome matey


Re: The fuelling post.


This guys claims may or may not improve things above stock jetting?
It's his opinions after all.


Re: Ivans MB kit.
I can personally vouch that this kit does what it claims, my Gen 1 is an absolute rocket & fuelling is perfection from idle all the way to redline, way better than my injected VFR800Fi.
Ivan has spent a good few hrs testing needle profiles, jet configurations, dyno runs etc to get this MB kit to where it can't be bettered on a road bike, yes you may get slightly better results from junking the Exup system & a re-jet & a race pipe, but this would only work on a track weapon that spends all it's time in the upper ballistic rev range.
We live in the real world, Ivans MB kit is defo worth the expense & effort to install it, my Gen 1 runs a tad rich at the bottom end, bit sooty at idle, hates the choke mostly, just give it a tad of choke to fire her up from a cold motor... 4 turns out on the pilot air/fuel screw is my bikes sweet spot, anymore & she's far too rich, might even give it a try at 3.5 turn out, cos she's still a bit sooty at 4 turns out.


Service & set Exup up correctly, install an MB kit, port out the carb inlet rubbers, modify the airbox lid, piper air filter, better flowing slip on exhaust can & you've gained a good few extra BHP & a bike that has drivability from idle to redline, fuel consumption isn't that bad too, unless you ring it's neck everywhere, then you'd expect regular stops at a gas station ... I always use E5 BP Ultima or E5 Shell Nitro fuel, aint cheap, but the old girl loves to drink it, I can't source Ethanol free in my area.
 DEFO 100% recommended by me & hundreds of others on this forum.

[jul1us]

Thank you so much, great post!


Do you also use an ignition advancer?

[teecee90]

If you're going to fit the Ivan's kit (recommended) I would also replace the float valve o-rings while you are at it.

[PieEater]

I had my bike put on the Dyno after it had the Ivans kit fitted the technician said the fuelling was "perfect".

[Gaz66]

Nope no advancer rotor as yet, bikes starts ok as is, runs mega.
Saying that though, I'm considering trying a 4 degree rotor or modifying my OEM rotor next time casing needs to come off.


As Teeccee advises, defo replace float valve seals as a minimum, there's also a fine mesh gauze filter in there too that needs a good soak in brake or EGR cleaner,.
Personally I replace all O'rings in the carbs, including float bowl seal.


Since fitting my Ivans MB kit, I've come across discussions in this & other forums about pro's & con's of drilling 1 or 2 pilot holes, 2 being as per Ivans recommendations, I have no experience of trialing another set of carbs with 1 pilot drilled, so I can't say if 1 drilled is better than 2 drilled ... best person to ask would be Falcon on this forum as he's spent god knows how many hrs ripping carbs apart & tinkering away fitting Jet kits for owners less capable, but if you've got a methodical approach, pulling carbs is pretty easy to be fair.


One thing or error I've come across fitting the MB kit, is there's no mention to strip the carb bottom ends before drilling pilot holes, to me it's common sense to fully strip the carbs 1st, tiny bits of alloy swarf will end up in the carb passages if not, also no one ever mentions separating the carbs to inspect or replace the "Air cut valve" diaphragms, only 1 can be accessed with carbs together, 3 can't so they need to be split apart, seems it's an often neglected part on these Mikuni's, bike won't run correctly without them being in good order, plus you can't fully clean out the carbs effectively with either an ultra-sonic bath or solvents, Solvents will likely damage the diaphragms, I believe they're no longer available from Yamaha, plus they'd be silly money too ...   "Ali-express" is you're friend here, £15 posted from China for a set of 4 diaphragms, comes with new springs too, look identical to OEM items, same parts on ebay at £60 plus, so do yourself a favour if planning on doing the MB kit, order a full set of carb seals or "Tourmax service kit, ideally replace the float valves too, some kits come with em.


Also ensure the 2 carb vent gauze filters are spotlessly clean or you'll get poor idling or no idling, fuel starvation symptoms, these sit inline between the carbs on short hoses & vent to atmosphere above the air box (often neglected) & need a regular wash out with brake cleaner or petrol.


Most bin the "Pair" system too & block off the header tubes ('mines long gone)
Fit a set of new plugs too, older bikes seem to dislike Iridiums.


MB kit's not a cheap mod, but neither is it mega expensive, always a plentiful supply of used exhaust cans on sale on eBay or F/Book, I've done all the above & not had any probs with the carbs or the bike in general since, bit of tweaking to pilot screws may be needed but that's all.


Modifying throttle tube to 1/4 turn makes life easier too. 

[SkidT]

Hi Julius and welcome to the forum.
I can only endorse what the others above have said about the Ivan’s “Full Monty” or even the “Slip on” kit.
My second Gen1 I had upgraded from standard to the “Full Monty” and my current Gen1, my third, which I’ve had for ten years,  came fitted with the “Slip on” kit. I then had it upgraded to the “Full Monty”.
If you have a search around on the forum, you will find somewhere, dyno graph comparisons between both versions and a standard Gen1 as well iirc?
I don’t think anyone would go back to standard from either upgrade kit. They both make such a positive difference.
The Full Monty, in my opinion, probably gives you a little sharper throttle response than the Slip on kit, but it’s still silky smooth and soo much better than many of the current crop of fuel injected euro 5 bikes.
As stated above, top gear, 25 - ***mph with no hiccups / flat spots etc, just glitch free grunt.

[jul1us]

Thank you so much for these incredibly detailed answers which are so helpful.


Gaz66, so you are saying cleaning the carb ultrasonic is bad?


I just bought another carb on eBay to be safe (and leave my current one untouched), it has been already cleaned ultrasonic by the seller.


There are also Tourmax repair sets included. Can you see from the photo if they include everything I need?


Photos:


https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg


The diaphragm seems not included. Would you recommend this:


1. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html


or


2. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html




Also, the seller of the carb also wants to sell me this "Long Boy extended Fuel Screw Set": http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html


Would you recommend that with the Ivan Kit or is it not needed?

[Falcon 269]

Some excellent advice above from guys who have done their own Full Monty installations or just commenting on the results of the kit. 

In my experience, I never had any issues with swarf going into the carbs when drilling out the pilot bypass holes.  It's only a tiny amount of metal being removed from the holes and the swarf comes up along the drill bit. 

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

As for the comments in your original post describing how the standard carburation can be made better without fitting Ivan's kit, there's a huge difference between 'better' and 'perfect'.

[jul1us]

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

Thank you for your answer! May I ask why exactly you switched to drilling one hole and does this apply for the SO kit and MB kit?

[CatalinU]

Ivans kit is flawless, everything is so much smother, no more bogging at 3k rpm, runing a 4 degree advancer and modified air filter cover

[Falcon 269]

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

Thank you for your answer! May I ask why exactly you switched to drilling one hole and does this apply for the SO kit and MB kit?

Basically, curiosity.   

I switched because I wanted to see what the results would be just drilling one hole.  I found the rear hole a little more difficult to reach and felt that the angle of attack with the pin vise caused it to enlarge a bit too much.  I tried it first on my own bike with a bank of carbs bought off ebay. 


My original carbs were modded with the 2-hole enlargement.  The fuelling at idle was a little too rich for my liking and I didn't want to close down the mixture screws to less than 3.5 turns.


Dyno results and seat-of-the-pants feel showed no discernible difference in performance so I kept using the one-hole process thereafter.  It did help with the idle fuelling and made the modding process easier, too.


Yes, applies to both kits.

[SkidT]

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

Julius, as a new user to this forum you may not be familiar with the history of some of the forum users.


Mike (Falcon 269) somewhat underplays his status on this forum by his words above. Search his previous threads / posts and you will find that he has done literally hundreds of Ivan’s conversions for us UK Gen1 owners over the years.


I doubt there is anyone more experienced in the advantages / disadvantages / fitting of these kits on either this forum or the UK.

[robbo]

Nice post SkidT . I certainly feel priveleged to have had "The Man" install my Ivans kit.

[Gaz66]

Thank you so much for these incredibly detailed answers which are so helpful.


Gaz66, so you are saying cleaning the carb ultrasonic is bad?


I just bought another carb on eBay to be safe (and leave my current one untouched), it has been already cleaned ultrasonic by the seller.


There are also Tourmax repair sets included. Can you see from the photo if they include everything I need?


Photos:


https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg


The diaphragm seems not included. Would you recommend this:


1. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html


or


2. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html




Also, the seller of the carb also wants to sell me this "Long Boy extended Fuel Screw Set": http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html


Would you recommend that with the Ivan Kit or is it not needed?


Hi Julius ... Think you've misunderstood what I meant re: Ultrasonic cleaning.


I meant that if "Air cut diaphragms" are still installed during either solvent or Ultrasonic cleaning, the diaphragms may not survive any contact with solvent, Ultrasonic cleaning is very good in most instances, I use mine for all-sorts, but water/solvent can be trapped withing the diaphragms chamber, along with dirt etc, hence they ideally need to come out when carbs are washed out .... bit of a piss poor design by Mikuni imho but it's something I've come across over the yrs doing countless carb servicing jobs .... Yes I fully recommend buying a set of the diaphragms from Ali-express, if only as a spare set, should you discover yours are in poor condition when stripped, it's clear why they get overlooked, splitting carbs apart is a job often swerved due to it being a fiddly process, it's common sense to replace the fuel o-rings between each carb joint while they're apart, after all they all between 17-22yrs old.


I've also found out by trail & error that  "Holts EGR cleaner" is awesome at cleaning carbs (externally & internally) cleans brass jets a treat, even had pilot jets remain blocked after a few sessions on the Ultrasonic bath, I also keep a few single strand guitar strings as jet un-blockers, also handy to poke thru carb galleries to ensure nothings stuck fast... just don't let this stuff come in contact with any rubber, hence a full carb strip as mentioned in my previous reply.

EGR cleaner is a good option if you don't have the use of an Ultrasonic bath.


Extended fuel screw ... is an option, as OEM screws are very hard to get at & be accurate as to how many turns out you're at with carbs in situ on the bike, never seen any on a Gen 1, but I have considered them in the past, it's a pricey option for something that rarely needs to be adjusted after a carb rebuild.
Ivans MB kit, is the way forward imho, it may be worth only drilling 1 bypass hole as Mike recommends, as I've drilled 2 & it's clearly too rich at idle & spits sooty deposits from the tailpipe, my white garage door looks like a paintball firing range from exhaust blast, note to self, "Clean the garage door ".

[SkidT]

If you have a search around on the forum, you will find somewhere, dyno graph comparisons between both versions and a standard Gen1 as well iirc?

This is the graph that I was referring to…….

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fz1dyno.htm#fz1slip

[jul1us]

also no one ever mentions separating the carbs to inspect or replace the "Air cut valve" diaphragms, only 1 can be accessed with carbs together, 3 can't so they need to be split apart, seems it's an often neglected part on these Mikuni's, bike won't run correctly without them being in good order, plus you can't fully clean out the carbs effectively with either an ultra-sonic bath or solvents, Solvents will likely damage the diaphragms, I believe they're no longer available from Yamaha, plus they'd be silly money too ...   

When inspecting the diaphragms, is it easy to see any problems at first glance?

[jul1us]

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

You also shorten the springs 12mm instead of 19mm, right?

[Falcon 269]

After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.

You also shorten the springs 12mm instead of 19mm, right?

Yes. 


As the bikes I was working on got older, I found that the springs became slightly shorter after years under compression.  If you cut the spring too short, it starts to lose control over the slide. 


Cutting it to 12mm also allowed a bit more excess to bend over to the horizontal, which prevents the spring end snagging in the carb top cap.

[jul1us]

Thanks again for all the help here.


I bought a second carb so that I could take my time with the kit installation and also have a failsafe in case something goes wrong.


The jet kit installation went really smooth and I took my time with it. I went with drilling one hole, shortening the springs 12mm and opening the mixture screw 4 turns, as per Mike's suggestions.


The last two days I spent with installing the carb which kept me quite busy as I used the chance to do a few things at once: AIS removal, carb coolant bypass (not much to do here), installing the new carb and checking the valves.


AIS removal was the most annoying bit, having to turn the very short tap with a Knipex plier wrench which needed a lot of patience, strength and precision.


With Mike's tips, especially the one to unhook the throttle cable on the throttle side,   removing the carb was much easier than expected.


I used a lashing strap to hold the airbox back.


It really pays off studying Pat and Mike's instructions meticulously and having them at hand.


I had also purchased new intake manifolds and modded them beforehand and replaced them. Pushing the carb back into these new manfolds proved to be the hardest part and even with all my power I was only able to get them in partially or rather once I had them in partially I used another lashing strap to push them in fully.


I am not finished yet and haven't started the bike yet as I went on to checking the valves after that, more about that in this thread:


https://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=27698.msg331704#msg331704

[Edited to fix the tiny font problem: GrahamM - Moderator]

[Falcon 269]

Well done to get the kit installed but for others following your lead, a couple of observations to hopefully make the job less physical ...

No need for lashing straps to hold the airbox back.  Just tighten the top airbox retaining bolt.  The key is to make sure you move the EXUP cables and breather hose from between the airbox and the frame so that you can slide it fully back in the first place.  Also, make sure the rubber tank support pad on the frame cross member - the one that's zip-tied in place - hasn't rotated to a position where it fouls the airbox.

I used to remove the throttle cables at the grip end but stopped doing that after the first couple of dozen installations.  It took too long.   Instead, wind in the adjuster at the throttle end to give maximum slack for when you remove the cables at the carb pulley end. The trick here is to ease the carbs across the back of the engine and then out to the left side and forward slightly.  Balance the carb bank on your knee and use both hands to remove the cable nipples from the pulley.  The top one comes out really easily.  The lower one requires you to rotate the pulley and use a hooked tool to slip the cable off the pulley.  You might want to put something over the cam box cover to protect it from scratching in case you bang the carbs against it. 

NB.  I think Ivan himself moves the carbs across to the left and then pushes #3 & 4 carbs into stubs #1 & 2 to hold them while he unhooks the cables from the side.  I've never tried that method, mine was just too easy for me.

No criticism intended here but if the carbs can be removed in 15 - 20 minutes using the right techniques and tools, it is not fundamentally a difficult task.   Refitting takes 20 - 25 minutes, allowing for checking that everything is correctly in place and tightened properly.

Which leads me to refitting the carbs into the intake stubs.  If you don't need a crowbar to get them out of the stubs, you don't need straps and levers and Lord knows what else to refit them.  

Use silicone lube, soap or whatever to lube the intake stubs and the airbox connector tubes.  Make sure that the clamps on the intake stubs are correctly positioned and not constricting the stub.

Once you have slid the carbs across to the correct position, offer them to the intake stubs but don't push at this stage. Rotate the carbs up and down slightly until you feel them centre in all the stubs, then start to push.  I found that having them angled slightly below level and tilting them upwards as I pressed them in worked best.  If they don't want to go in, back off and reposition them again. Brute force is not necessary.  If you have to resort to force, you're doing it the wrong way.

Handy hint.  If you're doing this on a cold engine/cold day, use a hair dryer to warm the stubs to make them more pliable.

Nice one, Julius - good luck with the rest of your work and please let us know when it's up and running. 

[jul1us]

Thank you very much for your thorough reply, Mike.


It will probably be of good help to me because I don't trust those third party intake manifolds (the clamps were lose on them and I had to remove the spacer) and will mod my original ones which were in better condition than I thought.


Btw, to remove the throttle cables I didn't stick the carb into manifold one but just leaned the seat against the bike and used it as a stand which was very comfortable.

[Falcon 269]

Btw, to remove the throttle cables I didn't stick the carb into manifold one but just leaned the seat against the bike and used it as a stand which was very comfortable.

Good idea!  I'll give a try next time I do one of these ...  

[jul1us]

Which leads me to refitting the carbs into the intake stubs.  If you don't need a crowbar to get them out of the stubs, you don't need straps and levers and Lord knows what else to refit them.  

Nice one, Julius - good luck with the rest of your work and please let us know when it's up and running. 

This is very true. All my problems came from these cheap knock off intake stubs which were sold as original and which I had bought in case something goes wrong with the modding. Today, I modded the original ones and then replaced them and everything fitted very nicely without the need of straps etc.


I also didn't remove the throttle cable and it all was very fast and easy now.


Hoping to have her running tomorrow. 

[jul1us]

Regarding the airbox cover mod, I read in some guides that the stub should be halved and shortened but Ivan says on fz1oa that it should only be halved and not shortened.


What's the latest info on this matter?


So far I only halved it: