A fun ride...

[Grahamm]

All we got were looks of distain from the people there, they obviously weren't ALL arrogant, but the ones that were definately made themselves heard.

[...]

It's a shame, because the majority of people there weren't stuck up, all the ones that my dad had contact with before were nice, friendly, helpful and encouraged him. but the few that decided they were better than him, me and the rest of the world ruined it.

I'm sorry to hear that. Of course there are always going to be dickheads in any group (even on forums!) who think they're "better than thou" because of [insert specious reasoning here], the trick is not to let them get to you.

In any case, even though he's not a member any more, he'll still have the benefit of the training and I hope you have too

Oh, I haven't mentioned the words beard or FJR, because my dad had both!!

But did he have them *before* joining the IAM or after?

[Grahamm]

a FEW observers who only know their own system can be very dogmatic

I won't deny that, doing it "by the book" is all very well, but even the book says that the System it teaches should be applied flexibly rather than dogmatically.

and again IMHO some of the things taught by IAM are just wrong (road positioning for corners for example ,great if you only doing an isolated corner very unhelpful if you doing a series of opposite direction bends)

I'm puzzled by this, I'd like to know what you mean here.

That said training is better than no training but shop around

I agree entirely.

[ghostbiker]

I did IAM's 2 years back now and for the training part enjoyed every min of it and got a lot from it.... i also left a some of it alone. i took from it what i found relevent to me and helpfull to me (which was most of it to be honest)

But the social side i found as others have said, very clossed and pompus i'm better than you attitude. but then i took it to improve my riding and not for the social side so this wasnt a big deal realy.

I would highly recomend extra training, rospa, iams, ride to arrive.... it dosent matter. anything that makes you "think" about the actions you take on the road is a good thing.

Am I better than some one that didnt take IAM's? foc no! every rider is diff and what they want from thier ride is diff. am i a better ridder now than before the training for how i ride? yes. but far from invinceable lol i still make mistakes, i still have "moments" and i still think affter doing something like that "ok your a tool, pay attention"

[Aegis Bearing Mel]

Not pontificating, merely saying that it's the holier than thou attitude that puts myself and many others off.

My personal feeling is that as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.

As for the point about knee down, fairly certain that isn't one of the approved procedures required for test, whereas machine control and correct positioning are.
If someone wants to get their knee down on the road, they will attempt it irrespective of any training, advanced or otherwise.

To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.

[bigralphie]

Graham
the corner thing

During the war.....err no while I was training for my Cardington test with a ex copper DSA instructor , a IAM instructor with tagging along one day
The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol

[Phil TK]

Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?

Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.

[Raymy]

I stuck a towel over my head so you couldn't see me reading this thread

I was just thinking that it suited you...

It would have suited raymy boy more if it was rammed into his mouth 

Aw aye eh?

On the whiskey much?




Don't see how stuffing a towel in my gob stops me typing

[BIG MAC]

You got voice recognition software Raymy...flash twat x
 

[Raymy]

Trev, we all know that voice recognition saftware disnae work wi a shire accent

[Grahamm]

as a charity of volunteers it won't carry as much clout for me as advanced instruction from DSA certified instructors will as the quality assurance procedures won't be as robust.

To become an Observer you first of all have to be able to ride to a high standard, then you have to show that you can you can demonstrate that standard to an Associate. Remember, also, that an Observer is exactly that, they're not an Instructor nor are they expected to be.

As for "quality assurance", when I was doing my Direct Access, my Instructor had a visit from a DSA Inspector and got picked up for 1) His tax disc was on the left side of the fairing/ screen rather than down by the rear wheel 2) He was instructing on the bike he had his side lights on instead of the headlight (the side-lights on his BMW were bright enough to make him clearly visible) and 3) when he wasn't on the bike, he was wearing sandals instead of bike boots (because he didn't want to wear out the soles on an expensive pair of boots which aren't designed for lots of walking around)!

So not much wrong there with his instruction...!!

To step up onto the pontification step now, I believe mindset and experience are the key points here.
The IAM give you the ability to tap the experience of others, as well as providing the chance to gain experience.
Back to the putting miles in thing.

As I said, practicing the *right* things. There's nothing the IAM or anyone else can do to *stop* you trying to get your knee down if you want, but at least they can show you what you should be doing. Whether you choose to do it or not is your own business.

(Oh, and I've put in more miles in the last year or so since I joined the IAM and have been practicing for the test and going on ride-outs with them than I'd done in the previous three years! )

[Grahamm]

The IAM guy was trying to pick me for poor road position (the ex cooper didn’t have a problem with me and walked off with his brew smiling) because I was not doggedly moving left for a right corner /right for a left corner etc.
What he could not take on board was these were shallow chicanes and not full corners so the better position was to go apex to apex as that allowed better vision but he just kept saying “well that’s not how we are taught “ rather than seeing if I might have something and trying my way before condemning it.
Its this mind set which just pushes my buttons lol

Hmm, well I've been told that if if you can see clearly through the corner (assuming there's no hidden "dead ground" where a vehicle might emerge from) then by all means feel free to "straighten the bends".

There's a series of "bends" on the Morestead Road down here which, if you get your position right at the start, you can virtually take a straight line through

Some IAM Observers are more anal than others, true, the one I have now is much more "f**k it, remember the book is only guidelines, if it's safe, do it!"

[Grahamm]

Hmm, ok. Perhaps, then, on behalf of the IAM and RoSPA I should ask you to "STFU!"?

Oh dear. Not quite the improvement in public relations I was hoping for.

Err, would you like to buy a new Irony Detector? Yours seems to be broken...

[ReNcE]

On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?

[ghostbiker]

Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?

I seen the way you ride, you will end up in a field...........






















camping with the rest of us at the BMF :P

[Grahamm]

I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?

If you're steering a counter, you're probably going to end up in a shop! 

[pitternator]

Sorry I havent logged in for a while, so lost the drift a bit. Graham, I was a qualified observer in a reasonable sized group, a group with  more observers than associates tbh, which was one issue. The problem I encountered was not the attitude of the keen young recruits ( like thee ,and me back then) but the silly old tossers who just would not accept change. They were more right wing than david cameroon. And tbh their attitude killed it for me. Many younger  guys just got their qualification and left. Maybe I should rejoin and see if its any better...but my suspicion is it wont be.
I do agree than biking needs an advanced training cadre , which while preaching some gospel, wont be bible bashing ! For my own end I did take away a lot of very crucial advanced riding tips, but also do agree that much can be interpreted and adopted a bit too parrot fashion. I evolved my riding style from a curious mixture of IAM,self education over 25 yrs of riding , race schools, books and lots of trackdays. An eclectic mix which  maybe suited me, but not everyone..
 
My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.
 
I have ridden with several police riders and tbh they dont ride that fast normally. They obviously have more talent than they always show, but tbh  dont judge ability  just by speed alone.....its safe riding at speed - they know when to back off ...and this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.

[Fazerider]

On the subject of advanced riding, somebody told me that you can corner faster, and smoother by pushing the bars in the opposite direction - I thought he was getting confused with opposite lock in sliding cars etc, but he swore it was true for bikes, I think he said it was called counter steering or something. Was he telling the truth, or am I going to end up in a field?

Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.
Not that knowing it necessarily makes one a better rider, but if you apply pressure to the bars to try to make them turn left the effect of the big gyro between your front forks is to tip the bike over to the right... exactly what you need to get round a right hander. Find an empty bit of straight road and try it (gently) if you don't believe it.

[Grahamm]

My basic premise in replying to your post is a concern, that just maybe you put the IAM on a pedestal, that somehow riding at or even beyond your own limit is a good thing so long as its while doing an IAM/ police thing. My thoughts are, stand back, ride at yer own pace, glean the important stuff, develop your own riding style.

 On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.
 
 As for "riding at or beyond your limit", the point is that you need to have some idea of where your limit *is* and, more importantly, what to do whilst you're there.
 
 Once you know that, you can start to improve matters, my riding skills have increased noticeably since I started getting the advanced training through better observation and planning and improved control of the bike, such that my limits have extended.
 
 The mistake I made was entirely my own, I wasn't concentrating on what *I* was doing and forgot the basic rule you're told of "Ride your own ride, you are responsible for your own riding decisions", it wasn't because I thought that I was some sort of riding god!
 
 

this is my whole point ......you have to build up to it, not just expect that having an IAM qualifies or even prepares you to ride fast.The single biggest thing I took away from the IAM, and my riding experience is ......have the courage and confidance to back off if you dont feel 100% comfortable. You dont get second chances at high speed.Trouble is, many folk see this as a weakness not a strength.
 

 Sure, but, again, the point is that *any* advanced training should teach that. If someone thinks "I'm IAM trained I can ride fast now!" then they've learned the wrong message, because it should be the *appropriate* use of speed.
 

[Grahamm]

Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.

Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.

[Fazerider]

Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.

Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.

Ah. I did wonder, but have often met folks who ride yet don't know how they're doing it... so took his post at face value.

[richfzs]

Unless you've never tackled a corner at more than 10mph, counter-steering is what you've been doing all these years.

Sorry, but I think you've just been trolled.

trolled, suckered, and damn near rabbit punched

[Phil TK]

 On a pedestal? No. On a higher step than those who haven't had any more training than what they needed to pass their basic test? Certainly, but I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.

 There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course. When I was a DSA instructor in the mid nineties my school scored the local Pizza Hut contract to train up all their nasty little delivery boys on their C90s, we also took a lot of the trainee taxi cab drivers (also on C90s) who wanted to go on and get their full license. In terms of machine control and traffic positioning most of these guys were 10/10 -that's because they all rode in London and you have to be damn good in London traffic, but it doesn't take long to get good if you ride everyday in the 'smoke'.
 I had little to get done with these sorts of students, basically just removing some bad habits, hammering home highway code and cooling down a few overly aggressive filtering techniques, but it was a very high pass rate. As for machine control, the Pizza boys had their own code of acceptability. This was usually put on display before my lessons started in the shape of one handed wheelies, stoppies, doughnuts (whilst facing backwards) and going round in a tight circle one handed wearing away a footpeg in a shower of sparks. You had to smile, I didn't mind as long as it stopped when I said so, they could do anything basically.
 Most of these guys probably dumped biking as soon as they got a proper job, but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.
 I would say the complete training experience is a daily London/city commute, a bit of regular dirt track riding (initially with a tutor like Geoff Mayes for eg), a race school session or two and the odd track day. Then you are complete. The dirt tracking is a part that shouldn't be neglected I might add, it's the only safe way to discover your limits of control -not on the road.
You have to crash to learn*

*Geoff Mayes (said whilst wearing a plaster cast on both legs)
 
 
 
 

[Raymy]

Not one to always agree with ya Phil, but i have to say i fucking liked that last post.


I ride in Glasgow, not a patch on London i'm sure, but its got its moments. My confidence is good around the city in the tight spaces and through the traffic, and i can be quick and safe. I rarely have many harem scarems like most folk seem to describe in their daily's, but when i get a bit more space and freedom around me the confidence drops some, i'll have to admit, and that to my mind is mainly because of my lack of knowledge on the limits of me and the machine.

I don't ride with folk often, Beer Slag mainly, if ever, but as seldom as it happens, its always a bonus. And my one trip with the foccers soon after passing test left me with 3mm untouched at the sides of a brand new rear boot. All because of being out with folk and seeing how they do it. Folk except moff cos he was already away into next year before i caught up.

But, here's my point.

I really wanna do off road and flat/dirt track stuff to see how far it can go with all the variables of weight, momentum, grip, mentality etc etc etc cos i know it will do me good on the road. I wanna do tarmac track stuff as well obviously but the dirt biking thing really floats me boat

NOT THAT i'M SAYING I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR OTHER MORE OFFICIAL OR RECOGNISED OR ORGANISED TRAINING ROUTES OF COURSE before i gets assumed that i am dissing it or summat.

I wanna do it all, bikesafe, rospa, iam. Its all good to me, i don't care about images and members, it ain't gonna get in the way of me learning about riding, but i really fancy off road and stuff a bit more off the wall

[Grahamm]

I'd say the same if you'd done RoSPA or any other such advanced training too.

There are other forms of training too. Riding around London on a moped is one, a very good 'training scheme' albeit rather more dangerous of course.

[...] but the ones who went on certainly didn't need any advanced training and I think the same goes for most people who've ridden for a while in London.

Pardon my scepticism. Still, I'm sure that the biker featured in this video clip thinks he's a very good rider too and, no doubt he's been riding through London for ages.

knightsbridge.mp4

Personally I think the guy is a complete twunt and an accident waiting to happen.

You have to crash to learn

I'll have to tell that one to a friend who has had flying lessons...

[chris.biker]

A nutter, he will always be quicker than me as long as his ( Ohh  or her) luck stays with them.