Date: 21-09-20  Time: 01:29 AM

Author Topic: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?  (Read 678 times)

Grahamm

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Does anyone know the dimensions (length/ external diameter) of the spacer on the front forks of the FZ6-S Fazer 04-06?


It's part 18 (or 38) on the picture.


Alternatively, does anyone know the internal diameter of the Inner Fork Tube (2 or 22)?


 I want to shorten mine to reduce the preload on the Hyperpro fork springs I bought (they're a bit too firm as I only weigh 64kg), but I want to get some PVC or aluminium tube to experiment with rather than start cutting down the OEM spacer!


https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2006/FAZER_ABS/FZ6-SA/FRONT-FORK/16_1637-1637/B26/0/23235

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #1 on: 25 July 2020, 08:39:52 PM »
If you can wait a week, I can measure that part when I get back home. Pretty that's the part that was taken out of my forks when I had some Racetech Emulators and springs fitted, so should be sat in a box in my shed.

Grahamm

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #2 on: 25 July 2020, 09:34:38 PM »
If you can wait a week, I can measure that part when I get back home.

Thanks, but I'm planning on doing some work on the suspension set up tomorrow. I was going to do it today, but the weather was crap :(

I'll just have to take the cap bolt off and measure it in situ.

I appreciate the offer anyway :thumbup

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #3 on: 27 July 2020, 10:46:10 PM »
So, last night, about 1:45am (I normally don't go to bed until after 2am!), having not had a chance to take off the bars and the fork caps to measure the spacers, I was thinking about this again and looking at the parts diagrams of the FZ6 and suddenly realised that, of course, I'd replaced the fork springs.

Naturally the springs must be around the same internal diameter as the fork tubes, so there I was, in the middle of the night, heading down the garden in my dressing gown, carrying a vernier gauge!!

A few minutes of measuring later and I'd discovered that the OEM springs are about 36.75mm in diameter. Not long after that I'd bought a 1 metre piece of 32mm diameter (stock size) PVC tubing which should turn up in a couple of days, then I can start experimenting with shorter versions to adjust the preload and get the right sag up front :thumbup

Gnasher

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #4 on: 28 July 2020, 09:15:21 AM »
Mate a would advise you don't use PVC tubing, it has a nasty habit cracking and collapsing under load and the load on your front end even under mild braking or dump absorption will be significant which could mean you front end effectively collapses. 

Fittiing Hyperpro fork springs, which are something like 10% stiffer depending on what kit you've got, for your weight was the wrong way to go.  Fit the standard springs back in, set the static sag, that may mean adding preload, that can be done adding 2mm discs at the top of the spacer on top of the washer plate below the fork nut.  What you need is to visit/contact a engineering supplier, who can supply you with 36.75mm x 80mm odd mild steel bar cut into 2mm dics, to give you 2 stacks of 40mm to add to each leg.  Add as required to get the correct sag for you weight, you're after between 30 - 35mm, or get the correct weighted springs for your weight.   

You could well find you need to do nothing more other than set the sag, if not you can now play with oil weight, 10 may be too much or you need 12, 15 etc.  If you want to go further you could start playing with the shim pack, but you really need to know what you're doing if you go that route or get someone to do it for you.   

You could well get away with it but it you don't, it could all end in  :'(  and you won't get the result you're looking for but just another trade off ;)
Later

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #5 on: 28 July 2020, 12:07:53 PM »
Mate a would advise you don't use PVC tubing, it has a nasty habit cracking and collapsing under load and the load on your front end even under mild braking or dump absorption will be significant which could mean you front end effectively collapses. 

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek

Once I've got the spacer the right length to get the sag correct (I've also bought some penny washers for fine adjustment), then I'm either going to cut down the OEM spacers or get some new ones made up :thumbup


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Fittiing Hyperpro fork springs, which are something like 10% stiffer depending on what kit you've got, for your weight was the wrong way to go. 
I don't think so. I looked at this carefully for quite a while and the OEM springs are a) 14 years old and b) too soft anyway, so I wanted something that had a bit more resistance, but simply adding preload to the existing ones could have resulted in the spring becoming rigid under hard braking.

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You could well find you need to do nothing more other than set the sag, if not you can now play with oil weight, 10 may be too much or you need 12, 15 etc. 

Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.

Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.

I did try out the new springs, taking the bike up to 60mph and then doing a hard stop (not quite full on emergency stop) and I'm using about 80% of the maximum fork travel, which is ok.

« Last Edit: 28 July 2020, 12:10:05 PM by Grahamm »

Gnasher

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #6 on: 28 July 2020, 12:48:11 PM »
Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek

It could crack/collapse the fist time you hit a bump or brake and riding around like a little old lady isn't going to give you the feed back you need, but hay it's your life mate, but have a thought for others.

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Once I've got the spacer the right length to get the sag correct (I've also bought some penny washers for fine adjustment), then I'm either going to cut down the OEM spacers or get some new ones made up :thumbup

As long as they're not cheap DIY washers made of cheap Chinese metal and they're at least the same dimensions as the standard washers, that would be okay.  If not they will buckle, be squashed and possible jam, even be sheared though over time.

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I don't think so. I looked at this carefully for quite a while and the OEM springs are a) 14 years old and b) too soft anyway, so I wanted something that had a bit more resistance, but simply adding preload to the existing ones could have resulted in the spring becoming rigid under hard braking.


That's why you need the correct weighted spring for your weight, to give you the right sag.  Chances are even with standard springs the sag isn't correct, most are set up for a Jap tester who is around your weight, so it will be the damping that's wrong.  Many owners/riders have their bikes set way too hard dampening wise, also what's going on at the back end has a big effect to what's happening at the front.   

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Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.

Hyperpro supply a spring which is normally 10- 20% higher than standard, if that spring weight is more than your weight requires, no matter how much you cut off, it wont effect the strength, only it's travel over a given distance.  If the spring is progressive an you cut the wrong end off it will in a dramatic way. Also if you in/decrease the spring you alter the rake which again effects the handling.     

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Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.
I did try out the new springs, taking the bike up to 60mph and then doing a hard stop (not quite full on emergency stop) and I'm using about 80% of the maximum fork travel, which is ok.

No, dive is or high speed damping is controlled by the shim pack not the air gap, by reducing the air gap all you're doing is slightly increasing spring pre load, which in your case is too high already. 

As I said above it's your life, you may get away with all of it, but if you don't someone could well have to come a clear you off the road.  Even if you do get away with it, you won't get a good set up, but it's all up to you.   
Later

Grahamm

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #7 on: 28 July 2020, 05:59:47 PM »
Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek


It could crack/collapse the fist time you hit a bump or brake and riding around like a little old lady isn't going to give you the feed back you need, but hay it's your life mate, but have a thought for others.


I don't think you've quite understood what I was saying.


The PVC pipe and washers are *literally* only for getting the spacer length right. Then I get the right length *metal* spacer :thumbup


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That's why you need the correct weighted spring for your weight, to give you the right sag. 


The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.


By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.


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  Many owners/riders have their bikes set way too hard dampening wise, also what's going on at the back end has a big effect to what's happening at the front.   


See my other post about about setting the sag on the YSS shock :)


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Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.


Hyperpro supply a spring which is normally 10- 20% higher than standard, if that spring weight is more than your weight requires, no matter how much you cut off, it wont effect the strength, only it's travel over a given distance.  If the spring is progressive an you cut the wrong end off it will in a dramatic way.


Who said anything about cutting down the spring? I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.


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Also if you in/decrease the spring you alter the rake which again effects the handling. 


Yes, I know. The YSS rear shock has +/- 5mm adjustment if I want to tweak the turn-in rate.

Of course I can always raise the forks if necessary.


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Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.


No, dive is or high speed damping is controlled by the shim pack


There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.


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not the air gap, by reducing the air gap all you're doing is slightly increasing spring pre load, which in your case is too high already. 


Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!


To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:


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The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.


The oil thickness determines how much damping you have in the fork. More or less weight will not change the amount of damping you need.


What does help, is to reduce the spring preload: since we use progressive springs, they have a softer and harder area.


By reducing the preload , the spring will work in a softer area, giving more comfort.


There is a spacer on top of the spring. If you cut off say 10mm, the spring should be in the right range and will give you the ride you want.

Instead of cutting the original ones, making a set of new ones is often easier (since the material is quite thin, it is hard to saw or cut)

The new one may be made from steel, aluminium or PVC.

Often swer pipe (for instance) has the proper outer diameter and is quite cheap and easy to cut


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As I said above it's your life, you may get away with all of it, but if you don't someone could well have to come a clear you off the road.  Even if you do get away with it, you won't get a good set up, but it's all up to you.   


I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.

Gnasher

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #8 on: 28 July 2020, 07:50:59 PM »
I don't think you've quite understood what I was saying.

No I don't think you're understanding me mate, I refer you to what I said earlier

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It could crack/collapse the fist time you hit a bump or brake and riding around like a little old lady isn't going to give you the feed back you need, but hay it's your life mate, but have a thought for others.

There's every possibility you'll be in trouble withing minutes, do you really want to find out as you hit a bump or brake form 60mph? 

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The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.

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By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.

Yep that's why I've suggested putting the standard springs back in they're 10-20% less than Hyperpro and the sag will be much closer if not correct and it's your dampening that's wrong, not the springs

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See my other post about about setting the sag on the YSS shock :)

Seen it that's why you need to set the front to match the back and vice versa ;)

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Who said anything about cutting down the spring? I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.

By shorten the standard spacer will will be effectively trying to lessen the spring rate, but the standard spacer is such that the spring is almost at it's non compress length, if you shorten it, (example 'like cutting the spring') the bike will just settle back down on it.  Thus you won't have changed the spring rate just lowered the front end and altered the rake, i.e. screwing the handling.  You can only reduce preload if it's there in the first place, in your bike it's not, as it's got standard spacers, it's the Hyperpro spring that's wrong, it's too hard for your weight, so whatever you do to it, it is not going to change it. 

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Of course I can always raise the forks if necessary.

If you raise the fork tubes (lift them in the yokes) you will alter the rake that will make the bike handle worse on the road and you'll have still done nothing to the spring rate. 

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There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.

Yes there is, it's inside the damping rod.   


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Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!

We all learn something everyday  ;)


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To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:

The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.

He needs to be working somewhere's else then.  There is 2 types of compression damping 1st high speed (DIVE) this is the initial compression when you hit the brake, 2nd low speed or progression damping, this comes after you hit the brake and the and the damping begins to slow, it also controls how fast it continues to compress, hit a dump etc. Adding/removing oil (changing the air gap) is just a cheap basic air spring i.e. preload.   


Anyone remember the fad with air suspension in the 80's, no longer used, I wonder why  ;)

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The oil thickness determines how much damping you have in the fork.
Yes and no, the size of the orifice and shim pack control how fast the oil passes through them and that's what determines how fast or slow your damping will react.  Thicker/thinner oil will just allow the damping to faster/slower but only to a point, which is why sports bikes have high/low speed compression and rebound damping.   

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More or less weight will not change the amount of damping you need.

Wrong, more/less weight means more/less energy, to keep things stable, if you increase/lower weight you have to increase/decrease damping to control the spring.   

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What does help, is to reduce the spring preload: since we use progressive springs, they have a softer and harder area.

By reducing the preload , the spring will work in a softer area, giving more comfort.

Your bike doesn't have any preload, to remove well almost none. 

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If you cut off say 10mm, the spring should be in the right range and will give you the ride you want.

No, you don't have any preload, all you will do is lower the front end. 

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Instead of cutting the original ones, making a set of new ones is often easier (since the material is quite thin, it is hard to saw or cut)

The new one may be made from steel, aluminium or PVC.

Often swer pipe (for instance) has the proper outer diameter and is quite cheap and easy to cut

Ask yourself why aren't the spacers made from aluminium or PVC.....................  it's soft.......... :rolleyes

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I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.

Mate, what you're doing is trying to rectify one mistake (fitting higher rated springs) by making and even bigger one.  The advice given hear is given to stop you 1 potentially, seriously hurting yourself or wrecking your bike, 2 to help you solve your problem.  If you don't to take it happy days, as I said earlier "it's your life" and you may well get away with it, lets hope you do.

 :)   





Later

Grahamm

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #9 on: 28 July 2020, 10:55:49 PM »
There's every possibility you'll be in trouble withing minutes, do you really want to find out as you hit a bump or brake form 60mph? 


Gnasher, I am NOT going to be riding with that PVC tube and washers in place!!

I am going to cut a couple of lengths of it, take out the OEM spacer, put in the PVC and washers and *sit* on the bike so my GF can measure the sag.

Then I'm going to tweak the length of the tube or add or take away washers until the preload is correct to give me the right sag.

Then I'm going to put the spacers back in until I can get a set of metal ones made up.

Clear? :thumbup

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The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.

By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.


Yep that's why I've suggested putting the standard springs back in they're 10-20% less than Hyperpro and the sag will be much closer if not correct and it's your dampening that's wrong, not the springs


Damping controls the *rate* at which the spring moves, yes?

So with no damping, the spring would bounce up and down until it runs out of energy. The thicker the oil, the more slowly the fork will move.

But it is not the oil that is holding the bike up, it is the spring. The softer the spring, the more it will sag, yes, of course and vice versa, but also, with a softer spring, when the fork is under load the fork will drop more.

As I've already said, with the Hyperpro springs and their 15W oil, I am using about 80% of the fork travel under hard braking. A softer spring would mean that the fork travels further and risks bottoming out.

Changing the oil will only affect how quickly it gets to the bottom.

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I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.


the standard spacer is such that the spring is almost at it's non compress length


Yes, but I'm literally talking about changing the length by a few millimetres, not even the full 10mm that the Hyperpro bloke said.

I unscrewed the fork cap by about 7.5mm which gave around the right sag (or possibly a little more), so I'm going to try the PVC tube and washers about 5mm shorter than the OEM spacer and see what that does.

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it's the Hyperpro spring that's wrong, it's too hard for your weight, so whatever you do to it, it is not going to change it. 


Well if it is, I'll have to get another one, but I'm not currently convinced that it is. 

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There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.


Yes there is, it's inside the damping rod. 


As far as I can see, the damping rod is just a tube with a hole in it. The FZ6 has cheap suspension!

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Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!


We all learn something everyday  ;)


Well, I've seen nothing to say that the air gap has anything to do with the preload, but I'm willing to be corrected.

As far as I can see from pages like this, the air gap is there to stop the suspension bottoming at the end of the stroke:

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Oil Level
A change in oil level will affect the air compression; it does not affect damping.  However, too large an air gap in forks may cause forks to dive too fast.  Conversely, if the oil level is too high with too small an air gap, it can have a significant effect on the last bit of fork travel.

http://www.promecha.com.au/damping_oils.htm

I can see nothing there that refers to preload which is how much the spring supports the bike and rider in its natural equilibrium.

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To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:

The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.


He needs to be working somewhere's else then. 


Gnasher, I know you're trying to help, and I appreciate it, but, with no offence intended, I have one opinion from a bloke who works for a major suspension manufacturer and another from a bloke on an internet forum.

So if there's a reason why your opinion is better than his, I'd welcome hearing it.

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Adding/removing oil (changing the air gap) is just a cheap basic air spring i.e. preload. 


That is using the word "preload" in a way that I have not seen used elsewhere.

Preload controls the amount of "push" that gets the spring moving. The more preload, the more push is required before something happens.
For instance this site says "If your sag figures are too small no matter how much preload you take out, that’s a sure sign that your springs are too stiff."
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/making-sense-motorcycle-suspension-springs-tech-tips-mc-garage-technology/

Now, as mentioned, if I unscrewed the fork caps by 7.5mm, it gave about the right level of sag, or perhaps a bit more. But that has nothing to do with the oil level.

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I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.


Mate, what you're doing is trying to rectify one mistake (fitting higher rated springs) by making and even bigger one.  The advice given hear is given to stop you 1 potentially, seriously hurting yourself or wrecking your bike, 2 to help you solve your problem.  If you don't to take it happy days, as I said earlier "it's your life" and you may well get away with it, lets hope you do.


But, with respect, what makes your advice better than that I've had from Hyperpro or heard from Dave Moss videos?

I want to get this stuff right, so if I'm going to listen to you, rather than them, please give me a good reason to.

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #10 on: 29 July 2020, 07:30:42 AM »
Mate as said you're trying to fix one error by another.

You tell us the Hyperpro springs are too hard and you replaced the standard spring with with the Hyperpro presumably as they were too soft?

You're now trying to soften the Hyperpro spring as they're too hard/harsh?  You plan to do that by reducing their preload by 10mm or so, by cutting down the spacer tube, all that will happen is the bike will settle back down and alter the rake.

Why, the standard set up has no real preload to speak of :rolleyes and the effect on the spring preload will be minimal as the spring rate is too hard for your weight.

What makes far more sense is to put the standard spring in and preload that to the correct sag as if it was too soft, which you can easily add/remove preload as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, to get to the correct sag.  From there you can play with the oil to improve the dampening.  You only weigh 68kg most of my customers weigh at least 25- 30 kg more than you, some even more.  I've sorted most of their front ends by just preloading the standard spring and few playing with the oil weight and yes reducing the air gap.  Others who tour or often go 2 up, I've fitted Hagon springs which are pretty much the same as Hyperpro only English.  They like you wanted to improve the standard set up without spending a fortune.  Others (mostly tourers and larger customers) and the best way to go is to upgrade the whole front internals with a cartridge and spring kit, or let one of the many suspension company's re-engineer your standard shim pack, dampener etc, none of which is cheap.     

It's up to you, muck about with PVC and washers, cut the standard spacers, or just preload the standard spring with cheap and easily fitted discs, which can be removed and the bike returned to standard when you sell it on. 

It's your choice and I wish you luck.

Later

Grahamm

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #11 on: 02 August 2020, 09:38:43 PM »
Just to round off this thread for anyone who finds it when searching...

I took out the OEM Spacers from the forks which (to answer my original question at the start of the thread!) are 131mm long, 37mm in diameter and have a 1.2mm wall thickness.


From my earlier experiment of unscrewing (but not removing) the fork caps, I'd estimated that about a 7.5mm change in length would be approximately what I was looking for (possibly a bit less, it was difficult to measure exactly how much I'd unscrewed them by).


So I cut two sections 123mm long from the 32mm PVC pipe and put those into the fork tube with three penny washers (each 1.5mm thick) on top of them.


After my long-suffering GF took some measurements, I got a Rider Sag figure of 30mm, so I took out one of the penny washers and got a Rider Sag figure of 36mm and a Static Sag 26mm.

Given that Hyperpro recommend a Static Sag figure of 24mm and Rider Sag of 35mm, I think that's pretty damn spot on :thumbup

I put the OEM Spacers back in and now all I need to do is someone to make another set of spacers which are 126mm long (5.1mm shorter than the originals) and I should be sorted!


(And, if, somehow, it turns out they're too short, I can always stick a washer back on top of them :thumbup )
« Last Edit: 02 August 2020, 09:39:32 PM by Grahamm »

Grahamm

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #12 on: 13 August 2020, 11:05:25 PM »
Pretty that's the part that was taken out of my forks when I had some Racetech Emulators and springs fitted, so should be sat in a box in my shed.

I dropped you a PM, but maybe you didn't see it?

If you still have the spacers, I'd be interested in taking them off your hands so I can have one set to cut down and a spare set in case anything goes wrong...  :eek

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Re: Anyone know the dimensions of the FZ6-S (04-06) Fork Spacer?
« Reply #13 on: 06 September 2020, 05:48:10 PM »
I finally got hold of a set of spacers for the front forks that I could cut down by 5mm (I didn't want to cut down the OEM ones just in case I screwed something up entirely!)

After swapping them over with original ones, I went out for a ride and WOW this small change made a BIG difference!!

The ride was much smoother, no juddering over bumps, the Hyperpro springs took everything that the road could chuck at them and the bike felt nicely planted whether it was a pot-holed piece of tarmac in town or when I was [ahem] making progress down the Morestead Road  :D


Those, plus the YSS rear shock make the FZ6 even more fun than it was originally :thumbup
« Last Edit: 06 September 2020, 05:50:57 PM by Grahamm »