Date: 21-09-20  Time: 01:13 AM

Author Topic: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?  (Read 365 times)

Grahamm

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"Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« on: 20 July 2020, 05:07:10 PM »
From today's New Scientist magazine:

Quote
A new artificial material effectively cannot be cut, holding out the promise of lightweight but cut-proof bike locks, security doors and protective clothing.


Its inventors embedded ceramic spheres in aluminium foam to create a material that couldn’t be cut with angle grinders, power drills or water jet cutters. They dubbed it Proteus after the shape-shifting Greek god, for the way the material metamorphosised in different ways to defend against attacks.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2249275-material-that-cannot-be-cut-would-make-the-ultimate-bike-lock/

Ok, it's not going to stop someone picking the bike up if it's not chained to something secure, but it should stop the "two scrotes with a moped and an angle grinder" sort of thefts...
 :thumbup  :thumbup
« Last Edit: 20 July 2020, 05:07:42 PM by Grahamm »

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #1 on: 20 July 2020, 05:48:14 PM »
Sounds good.
Quote
Rather than just being a hard surface that resists external pressure, the material turns the force of the drill or cutting mechanism back on itself, as the ceramic spheres create vibrations that disrupt the external force. “It actually destroys the cutting blade through the sideways jerky vibrations that it creates,
Must be interesting manufacturing it if you can't cut it. 

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #2 on: 20 July 2020, 07:26:41 PM »
Sounds good.
Quote
Rather than just being a hard surface that resists external pressure, the material turns the force of the drill or cutting mechanism back on itself, as the ceramic spheres create vibrations that disrupt the external force. “It actually destroys the cutting blade through the sideways jerky vibrations that it creates,
Must be interesting manufacturing it if you can't cut it. 

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ford dealer many years ago when i told them the hydraulic tappets needed adjusting. No adjustment they said. I just asked, what do you do when you fit new ones then? "Oh, we set them up."

BAck to the lock material though, the lock will be the weak point even if the "chain/bar" cannot be cut but they must have made it somehow, maybe just use a gas axe on it instead.
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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #3 on: 20 July 2020, 07:37:26 PM »
Sounds good but A. They've got to actually make it into a chain first and B. I'm guessing once they do it would probably cost more than most of our insurance excess anyway haha

I always find the normal "unbreakable" locks to be quite laughable. Theres always a YouTube video showing someone cutting through them in less than 60seconds with a grinder so I question why anyone would spend £300+ on one that lasts 10seconds longer than a £100 one 🤷‍♂️
I just stick with the theory that a heavy/thick enough chain and a disc lock will stop the majority of have a go theives. If a professional thief wants it then there's not a great deal you can do to stop them
I also refrain from parking mine in public unless its 100% necessary. I feel sorry for those people that have to leave theirs parked up on a curb in London all day 😬, less so for the ones that insist on doing so with their £20k Ducatis but still

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #4 on: 20 July 2020, 09:42:37 PM »
Quote
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ford dealer many years ago when i told them the hydraulic tappets needed adjusting.
Never heard of that.  I've heard of folks trying to prime them with oil.  But when I bust one, many years ago, and a follower, I don't remember setting up the tappet.  It was like a sealed unit.  Maybe there are different types.  And yes it rattled for a minute or so after start up. 



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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #5 on: 21 July 2020, 06:19:56 PM »
If your really concerned that your bike is gonny get nicked--just cover the seat in dark & milk chocolate, problem solved.


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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #6 on: 22 July 2020, 11:03:25 PM »
From what I've read on this, it looks like a pair of bolt croppers would still go through this easily, and that's the attack that they conveniently leave out of the paper...

Slaninar

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #7 on: 23 July 2020, 05:51:56 AM »
Sounds good but A. They've got to actually make it into a chain first and B. I'm guessing once they do it would probably cost more than most of our insurance excess anyway haha

I always find the normal "unbreakable" locks to be quite laughable. Theres always a YouTube video showing someone cutting through them in less than 60seconds with a grinder so I question why anyone would spend £300+ on one that lasts 10seconds longer than a £100 one 🤷‍♂️
I just stick with the theory that a heavy/thick enough chain and a disc lock will stop the majority of have a go theives. If a professional thief wants it then there's not a great deal you can do to stop them
I also refrain from parking mine in public unless its 100% necessary. I feel sorry for those people that have to leave theirs parked up on a curb in London all day 😬, less so for the ones that insist on doing so with their £20k Ducatis but still


From talking with people who open the locks, from both "sides of the law", I have concluded this:


No lock is unbeatable - a security system without a weak point is useless by definition. Why? Because, security systems have to have a relatively easy, convenient way for those authorised to "unlock", and that's what often gets exploited. Of course, there's always the brute force approach to beating it, if all else fails.


Better (and almost always more expensive) locks require more knowledge, experience and tools to open.
10 to 30 more seconds with a battery powered angle grinder can make a difference - because those things do make a lot of noise. Not all the thieves are cool and level headed.


Boils down to this: thieves practically always go for the easier pray. If your bike is less expensive (looking), and better locked than the other bikes, why would they bother?


I'd also add my experience with bicycle locks. Every now and then, people come into my workshop with a stuck bicycle lock. Either something broken with the locking mechanism, or they loose the only key they have.
Most of the cheap locks get easily cut with relatively small cutters (those that fit under the jacket, often even those that fit in a pocket). That's no noise, almost zero effort, done in literally a few seconds.


Having said all this: I did "break" a few locks in the street, in broad daylight, with no one paying any attention whatsoever (could have been a thief). Still, if I were a thief, I wouldn't know if the owner would come by and see me, and I would probably be a bit more nervous and avoid locks that take more time and/or noise to break (based on my tools, knowledge and experience).


Bottom line:
Would I trust any lock to keep the bike from being stolen? No - no system in the world.
Do I think investing in a good quality (and expensive) lock is worth it? Definitely - because it highly decreases the probability of your bike getting stolen. That's all you can do.


It's a lot like riding a bike: you can get killed on your bike any day in traffic. But you're a lot less likely to get severely injured when paying attention, being careful (and, of course, wearing the protective gear). You don't just run a red light without looking because "even when paying attention, I can still get killed".


Of course, the fewer people invest in good locks, the safer a bike with a good lock is.  :)
So I'm almost happier when people don't take my advice on locks and security.   :rollin
« Last Edit: 23 July 2020, 05:55:03 AM by Slaninar »
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.

darrsi

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #8 on: 23 July 2020, 10:16:48 AM »
Sounds good but A. They've got to actually make it into a chain first and B. I'm guessing once they do it would probably cost more than most of our insurance excess anyway haha

I always find the normal "unbreakable" locks to be quite laughable. Theres always a YouTube video showing someone cutting through them in less than 60seconds with a grinder so I question why anyone would spend £300+ on one that lasts 10seconds longer than a £100 one 🤷‍♂️
I just stick with the theory that a heavy/thick enough chain and a disc lock will stop the majority of have a go theives. If a professional thief wants it then there's not a great deal you can do to stop them
I also refrain from parking mine in public unless its 100% necessary. I feel sorry for those people that have to leave theirs parked up on a curb in London all day 😬, less so for the ones that insist on doing so with their £20k Ducatis but still


From talking with people who open the locks, from both "sides of the law", I have concluded this:


No lock is unbeatable - a security system without a weak point is useless by definition. Why? Because, security systems have to have a relatively easy, convenient way for those authorised to "unlock", and that's what often gets exploited. Of course, there's always the brute force approach to beating it, if all else fails.


Better (and almost always more expensive) locks require more knowledge, experience and tools to open.
10 to 30 more seconds with a battery powered angle grinder can make a difference - because those things do make a lot of noise. Not all the thieves are cool and level headed.


Boils down to this: thieves practically always go for the easier pray. If your bike is less expensive (looking), and better locked than the other bikes, why would they bother?


I'd also add my experience with bicycle locks. Every now and then, people come into my workshop with a stuck bicycle lock. Either something broken with the locking mechanism, or they loose the only key they have.
Most of the cheap locks get easily cut with relatively small cutters (those that fit under the jacket, often even those that fit in a pocket). That's no noise, almost zero effort, done in literally a few seconds.


Having said all this: I did "break" a few locks in the street, in broad daylight, with no one paying any attention whatsoever (could have been a thief). Still, if I were a thief, I wouldn't know if the owner would come by and see me, and I would probably be a bit more nervous and avoid locks that take more time and/or noise to break (based on my tools, knowledge and experience).


Bottom line:
Would I trust any lock to keep the bike from being stolen? No - no system in the world.
Do I think investing in a good quality (and expensive) lock is worth it? Definitely - because it highly decreases the probability of your bike getting stolen. That's all you can do.


It's a lot like riding a bike: you can get killed on your bike any day in traffic. But you're a lot less likely to get severely injured when paying attention, being careful (and, of course, wearing the protective gear). You don't just run a red light without looking because "even when paying attention, I can still get killed".


Of course, the fewer people invest in good locks, the safer a bike with a good lock is.  :)
So I'm almost happier when people don't take my advice on locks and security.   :rollin


"...You don't just run a red light without looking because "even when paying attention, I can still get killed..."

Were you saying that on behalf of the average cyclist? :stop
« Last Edit: 23 July 2020, 10:17:29 AM by darrsi »
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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #9 on: 23 July 2020, 10:38:52 AM »
From what I've read on this, it looks like a pair of bolt croppers would still go through this easily, and that's the attack that they conveniently leave out of the paper...
Yes I think you are right. Made me laugh the vid of a drill failing to go through, - that is how most of me drills are with aluminium  :lol .

Bike security for home can be easier but street security is an issue with the weight of chain. What I know about it is that you need thick chain enough to be too big for the biggest bolt croppers.On the subject of bolt croppers - how many people actually has lidgit use for them. I think the sale of them should be controlled somehow.
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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #10 on: 23 July 2020, 11:13:11 AM »
I use an alarmed padlock, so lots of decibels if it's disturbed with bolt croppers or by the curious. Probably not as loud as an angle grinder or gas axe though, and also depends whether anyone wants to notice. At the end of the day, if they want it, they'll take it. That's what insurance is for.

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #11 on: 23 July 2020, 12:33:16 PM »

"...You don't just run a red light without looking because "even when paying attention, I can still get killed..."

Were you saying that on behalf of the average cyclist? :stop


I did talk to a (female) driver who said something like: "when I'm scared (as in not sure if there's enough room), I close my eyes".    :rollin
True story.
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Grahamm

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #12 on: 23 July 2020, 12:34:39 PM »
From talking with people who open the locks, from both "sides of the law", I have concluded this:

No lock is unbeatable

As I've said in previous discussions, security doesn't buy safety, it buys time.

The only thing any security system will do is to make it more difficult to steal something, but if someone is determined enough and wants to spend enough time and money, they will be able to steal whatever it is you want to protect.

The aim of security is to make it not worth their effort or money in actually stealing it, since if it's going to take them hours or thousands of pounds to steal something that's only worth £500 they're probably going to look elsewhere.

That's one of the reasons why, although I keep my bike in good mechanical order and have done various upgrades, I don't take too much effort to keep it cosmetically "perfect", because any thief will see it's a bit tatty and figure they wouldn't get much for it.

At the same time I have had the bike data tagged and use a good lock, disc lock and alarm to deter the casual joy rider who would have to put in too much work to nick it.

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Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« Reply #13 on: 23 July 2020, 01:45:41 PM »

At the same time I have had the bike data tagged and use a good lock, disc lock and alarm and a booby trapped side stand
There you go i have added something you forgot  :lol
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