Date: 19-10-20  Time: 16:08 PM

Author Topic: Rear Brake refurb  (Read 4875 times)

fazersharp

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Rear Brake refurb
« on: 29 March 2020, 03:26:21 PM »
I was going to change pads and fluid and line after my MOT in April - after the MOT in case I potatoed the caliper. I now have anextra 6 months so am doing now.  I have read the various posts and advice but thought I would start my own as I have a few questions.I will be using a hel line and on the website it mentions black stealth heat shrink on the ends as an option. I actually think it looks a bit messy and my new line will be clear stainless steel but on the rear is there any reason to have the "stealth heat shrink.
  • what is peoples opinion on hel stainless steel bleed nipples and what size do I need.
  • Will 500ml of fluid be enough to do the job - even if I have to struggle with bleeding.
  • What fluid to get - any make better than other.
  • Pads SBS ceramic I see have been mentioned. I don't want anything too sharp on the rear
  • seals webmoto Ebay or fowlers.I read it can be hit and miss with pattern ones but is that still the case.
A reminder for those that do not know. I have had the bike for 19 years 23k on clock and the last 19k of them have been dry ones only. Bike garaged. The rear calaper was last serviced at 8k in 2002 pads fluid and seals ( so the receipt says )   
« Last Edit: 29 March 2020, 03:27:26 PM by fazersharp »
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Gnasher

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #1 on: 29 March 2020, 05:30:56 PM »
I have a few questions.I will be using a hel line and on the website it mentions black stealth heat shrink on the ends as an option. I actually think it looks a bit messy and my new line will be clear stainless steel but on the rear is there any reason to have the "stealth heat shrink.


No it's purely cosmetic.


  • what is peoples opinion on hel stainless steel bleed nipples and what size do I need.
  • Will 500ml of fluid be enough to do the job - even if I have to struggle with bleeding.
  • What fluid to get - any make better than other.
  • Pads SBS ceramic I see have been mentioned. I don't want anything too sharp on the rear
  • seals webmoto Ebay or fowlers.I read it can be hit and miss with pattern ones but is that still the case.
A reminder for those that do not know. I have had the bike for 19 years 23k on clock and the last 19k of them have been dry ones only. Bike garaged. The rear calaper was last serviced at 8k in 2002 pads fluid and seals ( so the receipt says )


Not really needed it's up to you 7mm x 1mm pitch.
You can do the job with 250ml if you don't waste it.
DOT 4 you don't need anything else.
SBS HF ceramic is what you need, they are OE equivalent.
Go for Flowers, for the rear seals, you can buy a kit which includes the pistons & seals, or you can but each separate. All depends how bad the pistons are.  If you're going to split the caliper body you will need a body seal, you can't get this from Yamaha, Suzuki's GS500 one fits perfectly.   
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vinnyb

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #2 on: 29 March 2020, 06:38:29 PM »
Or you could try Fowlers if the flowers don't work :lol

fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #3 on: 29 March 2020, 07:36:12 PM »
Thanks for your help
Not really needed it's up to you 7mm x 1mm pitch.
You can do the job with 250ml if you don't waste it.
DOT 4 you don't need anything else.
SBS HF ceramic is what you need, they are OE equivalent.
Go for Flowers, for the rear seals, you can buy a kit which includes the pistons & seals, or you can but each separate. All depends how bad the pistons are.  If you're going to split the caliper body you will need a body seal, you can't get this from Yamaha, Suzuki's GS500 one fits perfectly.   
I am hoping the pistons are ok. Why would I need to be splitting the body ?
And a basic question do I pop the pistons out then take the seals out and clean in and around their seats, replace with new then push the cleaned and inspected pistons back in. I will be taking the caliper off and doing it on a bench.Do I need to do anything with the master cylinder.
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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #4 on: 29 March 2020, 07:41:34 PM »
Any recommendations as to where to get the pads.
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darrsi

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #5 on: 29 March 2020, 08:25:14 PM »
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

Gnasher

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #6 on: 29 March 2020, 08:49:17 PM »
I am hoping the pistons are ok. Why would I need to be splitting the body ?
And a basic question do I pop the pistons out then take the seals out and clean in and around their seats, replace with new then push the cleaned and inspected pistons back in. I will be taking the caliper off and doing it on a bench.Do I need to do anything with the master cylinder.


Yes, if you think you'll shear them, but you don't need stainless. In most case the weep because people over tighten them and bugger the seat in the caliper buying new nipples will have little effect.


The rear pistons don't fair well and in most cases need replacing, only by inspection can you tell, but if you've not got them and yours are shot you've got to wait and reorder, that costs more.  Your choice.


All depends how you get the pistons out, these rears can be a real pain to remove even with hydraulic pressure.  Often the only way is to split the caliper and twist them out, that can't be done with the caliper whole but you run the risk of damaging the pistons, if damaged enough the can't be reused.  If you split it and you've not got the seal, you run the risk of it leaking should you reuse it, it will leak.   
 
« Last Edit: 30 March 2020, 08:48:21 AM by Gnasher »
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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #7 on: 29 March 2020, 09:01:20 PM »
Thanks Gnasher, before you posted I was looking at the price difference and it's only 26 quid exta for the kit with with pistons. So I can be as rough as I need to be in getting the old ones out.


 Just to confirm that I pop them out without splitting the caliper
« Last Edit: 29 March 2020, 09:07:37 PM by fazersharp »
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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #8 on: 29 March 2020, 09:05:17 PM »
Any recommendations as to where to get the pads.
thanks for the link. These ones then SBS STREET 570HF Ceramic


Don't worry about the year, they'll fit.


http://www.bits4motorbikes.co.uk/brakes/MotorBikeBrakePadsAndShoes.html?MotorbikeID=6368
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Fazerider

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #10 on: 30 March 2020, 12:18:47 AM »

If you’ve avoided wet and salty roads it’s a fair bet that the pistons will be fine. I've never needed to split calipers... i see which piston moves easier then use a small G-clamp to hold it in while using the pedal to pump the difficult one out. Then piston pliers to wriggle the other out.
If the seals on the master cylinder haven’t been replaced recently I’d change ‘em. Yamaha say to do so every 4 years for all the hydraulics’ rubber components, though that is a bit over-cautious.
You can avoid problems with bleed nipples by greasing the threads when you put them in. And a squirt of WD40 down the hole after bleeding blows out that nasty hygroscopic brake fluid... just keep your face out of the firing line when you do. :)

Gnasher

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #11 on: 30 March 2020, 09:06:35 AM »
Thanks Gnasher, before you posted I was looking at the price difference and it's only 26 quid exta for the kit with with pistons. So I can be as rough as I need to be in getting the old ones out.


 :thumbup


 Just to confirm that I pop them out without splitting the caliper


If you've not got piston pliers, be sure to leave enough of the second piston proud of the caliper body that you can grip it.  These pistons are quite long and you need to push which ever one you're not taking out back into the body, just make sure you do as above or you'll have to get hold of piston pliers to remove it.


Push them both out with a single pad between them, get them a equal as possible, now clean the pistons ensure you get to the undersides, grease them and push them back.  This will help free them, it will also give you an indication if they're seized, from there you can decide to split or not.
As mentioned these are often a real pain to remove and they can lock themselves in, I've had many an owner turn up with a caliper body with chewed up seized pistons. :wall


If your's have been well maintained your should be ok, good luck.   




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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #12 on: 30 March 2020, 11:51:54 AM »

If you’ve avoided wet and salty roads it’s a fair bet that the pistons will be fine. I've never needed to split calipers... i see which piston moves easier then use a small G-clamp to hold it in while using the pedal to pump the difficult one out. Then piston pliers to wriggle the other out.
If the seals on the master cylinder haven’t been replaced recently I’d change ‘em. Yamaha say to do so every 4 years for all the hydraulics’ rubber components, though that is a bit over-cautious.
You can avoid problems with bleed nipples by greasing the threads when you put them in. And a squirt of WD40 down the hole after bleeding blows out that nasty hygroscopic brake fluid... just keep your face out of the firing line when you do. :)
Good tips thanks. Think I will invest in a pair of piston pliers. No rain or salt in 19 years ;) . Which seals is it in the master cylinder I cant tell in the fowlers exploded diagram. 
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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #13 on: 30 March 2020, 12:00:50 PM »
If you've not got piston pliers, be sure to leave enough of the second piston proud of the caliper body that you can grip it.  These pistons are quite long and you need to push which ever one you're not taking out back into the body, just make sure you do as above or you'll have to get hold of piston pliers to remove it.
Push them both out with a single pad between them, get them a equal as possible, now clean the pistons ensure you get to the undersides, grease them and push them back.  This will help free them, it will also give you an indication if they're seized, from there you can decide to split or not.
As mentioned these are often a real pain to remove and they can lock themselves in, I've had many an owner turn up with a caliper body with chewed up seized pistons. :wall
If your's have been well maintained your should be ok, good luck.   
Thanks for your help.
Will be getting some piston pliers. I wouldn't say the rear caliper has been "well looked after" other than keeping is clean but doesn't really get dirty.So before I take off completely I will use the pedal to push them out to grease them. Are they long enough to push out until they touch each other or maybe a thin piece of metal in-between so I can use it to push them apart after greasing.Thinking if I buy the set with new pistons and mine are ok I could sell the new pistons on their own.
« Last Edit: 30 March 2020, 12:01:33 PM by fazersharp »
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Gnasher

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #14 on: 30 March 2020, 12:28:47 PM »
Are they long enough to push out until they touch each other or maybe a thin piece of metal in-between so I can use it to push them apart after greasing.

As stated above

"Push them both out with a single pad between them, get them a equal as possible"
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Fazerider

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #15 on: 30 March 2020, 01:44:06 PM »

If you’ve avoided wet and salty roads it’s a fair bet that the pistons will be fine. I've never needed to split calipers... i see which piston moves easier then use a small G-clamp to hold it in while using the pedal to pump the difficult one out. Then piston pliers to wriggle the other out.
If the seals on the master cylinder haven’t been replaced recently I’d change ‘em. Yamaha say to do so every 4 years for all the hydraulics’ rubber components, though that is a bit over-cautious.
You can avoid problems with bleed nipples by greasing the threads when you put them in. And a squirt of WD40 down the hole after bleeding blows out that nasty hygroscopic brake fluid... just keep your face out of the firing line when you do. :)
Good tips thanks. Think I will invest in a pair of piston pliers. No rain or salt in 19 years ;) . Which seals is it in the master cylinder I cant tell in the fowlers exploded diagram.

Fowlers Item 6, the “Cylinder Kit, Master” is what I’ve bought in the past. It does include more than strictly needed, but I don’t think you can get the individual rubber parts separately.
As you probably know, getting air out of the back brake is a pain because the path the fluid fluid takes goes up and down. Air trapped in the master cylinder is best removed by slackening the banjo at the top.

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #16 on: 30 March 2020, 07:53:04 PM »

Fowlers Item 6, the “Cylinder Kit, Master” is what I’ve bought in the past. It does include more than strictly needed, but I don’t think you can get the individual rubber parts separately.
As you probably know, getting air out of the back brake is a pain because the path the fluid fluid takes goes up and down. Air trapped in the master cylinder is best removed by slackening the banjo at the top.
yeiks that's another 56 quid, how many parts of that number 6 are actually rubber that is to be replaced.

 Does anyone actually replace master cylinder parts. I was thinking maybe the diafram but  not everything else.
I haven't got as far as bleeding reading tips. Panicking a little to just get stuff ordered before even more lockdowns
« Last Edit: 30 March 2020, 07:53:49 PM by fazersharp »
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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #17 on: 30 March 2020, 07:54:54 PM »
Are they long enough to push out until they touch each other or maybe a thin piece of metal in-between so I can use it to push them apart after greasing.

As stated above

"Push them both out with a single pad between them, get them a equal as possible"
:thumbup :thumbup
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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #18 on: 31 March 2020, 09:40:00 AM »
Ok looking at buying a pair of piston pliers. Any recommendations or advice ones to avoid ect. Trying not to spend too much but I know if I did not have any and I was struggling  :'( I would pay anything   :lol
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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #19 on: 31 March 2020, 10:03:27 AM »
Take a deep breath, coz it all starts now, when you pull the foccin' pin

fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #20 on: 31 March 2020, 10:39:45 AM »
Thanks for the recommend.I think I have seen 3 designs. Those with the ratchet mechanism like yours then these ones   
and then these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Motorcycle-Brake-Caliper-Piston-Removal-Pliers-Tool-16-5-40mm-Diameter-Durable/164135716398?hash=item263740462e:g:rWoAAOSwKW5eeCYg

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fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #21 on: 31 March 2020, 10:44:09 AM »
Often the only way is to split the caliper and twist them out, If you split it and you've not got the seal, you run the risk of it leaking should you reuse it, it will leak.   
 
If I need to split the caliper Is the seal just a flat washer, I can not see it on the fowlers diagram.
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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #22 on: 31 March 2020, 11:13:34 AM »
Often the only way is to split the caliper and twist them out, If you split it and you've not got the seal, you run the risk of it leaking should you reuse it, it will leak.   
 
If I need to split the caliper Is the seal just a flat washer, I can not see it on the fowlers diagram.


This is what it's like but hope the one's you get look a bit better,

  [size=78%]https://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-brake-caliper-body-fluid-seal-rear-p-92407.html[/size][/size]

fazersharp

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #23 on: 31 March 2020, 11:20:12 AM »
Often the only way is to split the caliper and twist them out, If you split it and you've not got the seal, you run the risk of it leaking should you reuse it, it will leak.   
 
If I need to split the caliper Is the seal just a flat washer, I can not see it on the fowlers diagram.



This is what it's like but hope the one's you get look a bit better,

  [size=78%]https://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-brake-caliper-body-fluid-seal-rear-p-92407.html[/size]
:lol Thanks for that at least I know what they look like but if they are new then I think I will take my chances with the old ones  :lol
 Looking at delboys garage vid he said he has never needed to replace the split seals. Also not a single mention of red rubber grease on that vid. 

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bandit

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Re: Rear Brake refurb
« Reply #24 on: 31 March 2020, 11:36:20 AM »
Often the only way is to split the caliper and twist them out, If you split it and you've not got the seal, you run the risk of it leaking should you reuse it, it will leak.   
 
If I need to split the caliper Is the seal just a flat washer, I can not see it on the fowlers diagram.



I do find delboys vids very informative but I would use red rubber grease & instead of copper grease on pad backs I would use ceramic brake grease this is available from Euro car parts or Carparts4less
 
[size=78%]https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/pagid-ceratec-brake-lube-75ml-grease-526770250[/size]

[size=78%]If you haven't bought your piston seals yet try Powerhouse-UK on Ebay, kits are £19.99 without pistons or £59.99 with. [/size]


This is what it's like but hope the one's you get look a bit better,[size=78%]

[/size]  [size=78%][/size][size=78%]https://yambits.co.uk/fzs600-fazer-brake-caliper-body-fluid-seal-rear-p-92407.html[/size]
[size=78%] :lol Thanks for that at least I know what they look like but if they are new then I think I will take my chances with the old ones  :lol
 Looking at delboys garage vid he said he has never needed to replace the split seals. Also not a single mention of red rubber grease on that vid.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC_Id6rgP3g
[/size]
[size=78%]






As well as the info above this may also help you to.
http://www.redrubbergrease.com/tips-how-to-brake-caliper-failure-repair-with-rebuild-kit.html[/size]
« Last Edit: 31 March 2020, 11:40:31 AM by bandit »