Date: 20-11-19  Time: 09:31 AM

Author Topic: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...  (Read 6736 times)

fazersharp

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #400 on: 09 November 2019, 05:58:53 PM »
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Labour and Corbyn should NEVER be let anywhere near the UKs treasury again. 
Corbyn was responsible? How?
:rolleyes Labour again -- but of course it will be Corbyn's first try at f ing up the UK.
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mtread

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #401 on: 09 November 2019, 06:03:27 PM »
Yeah, and the Conservative PM Neville Chamberlain signed a peace deal with Hitler, but even I wouldn't blame the current Tories for that  :rolleyes

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #402 on: 09 November 2019, 07:23:31 PM »
Nothing really changes;
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A socialist state could not afford to suffer opposition - no socialist system can be established without a political police. They (the Labour government) would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo
  Winston Churchill.

agricola

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #403 on: 09 November 2019, 08:05:49 PM »
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Both the enforcement of Building Reg's, is local building control, and planning permission are controlled by the local council. Labour controlled?
Of course not. It's Kensington & Chelsea. Vastly Tory and only interested in their mansions, not the homes of poor people.


You should know better. Planning Laws/Rules/Regulations etc are the responsibility of Professional Planning Officers, who make only recommendations to the Elected Members in reports to the Planning Committees for their approval or rejection. Officers can recommend either approval or rejection to the elected members, who then decide. Rejecting the advice of the professionals does happen, but in a minority of cases, as it leaves the Local Authority in a weak position should the proposed developer wish to appeal the rejection, with the prospect of substantial legal costs to foot. You would need to look at the planning history of the building to be sure of your facts before throwing stones

mtread

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #404 on: 09 November 2019, 08:31:19 PM »
I do know better. The owner of Grenfell Tower is Conservative Kensington & Chelsea Council. Whatever the planning rules allow or disallow, as owners they are ultimately responsible for the safety of the building.
Oh and to point out again, they are not a Labour Council.

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #405 on: 09 November 2019, 08:38:16 PM »
 
Quote
The owner of Grenfell Tower is Conservative Kensington & Chelsea Council.
But according to Jacob Ress-Mogg it was because the residents had no common sense that over 70 people died.  Mr Rees-Mogg says it is common sense to ignore the instructions of the fire brigade in the event of a fire.


According to Rees Mogg, it’s nothing to do with the fact the Tory Council wrapped the building in highly flammable material – it is the fault of the stupid people living there.
 

fazersharp

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #406 on: 09 November 2019, 09:11:39 PM »
Quote
The owner of Grenfell Tower is Conservative Kensington & Chelsea Council.
But according to Jacob Ress-Mogg it was because the residents had no common sense that over 70 people died.  Mr Rees-Mogg says it is common sense to ignore the instructions of the fire brigade in the event of a fire.


According to Rees Mogg, it’s nothing to do with the fact the Tory Council wrapped the building in highly flammable material – it is the fault of the stupid people living there.
 
Its sickening to hear people use the deaths of people to score political points especially when they twist and misquote what has been said. Will the remainers stop at nothing to try reverse a democratic vote that they lost.   
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VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #407 on: 09 November 2019, 09:19:16 PM »
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Its sickening to hear people use the deaths of people to score political points
I agree, Jacob Rees Mogg is a sick individual. 

agricola

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #408 on: 09 November 2019, 09:25:07 PM »
I do know better. The owner of Grenfell Tower is Conservative Kensington & Chelsea Council. Whatever the planning rules allow or disallow, as owners they are ultimately responsible for the safety of the building.
Oh and to point out again, they are not a Labour Council.


Political control is irrelevant. The Council is the owner, whatever group is in control at the time. Councils make decisions based upon the evidence/advice supplied to them by the professional officers. Your just political point scoring, and most of us arent interested in that

agricola

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #409 on: 09 November 2019, 09:31:13 PM »
Quote
The owner of Grenfell Tower is Conservative Kensington & Chelsea Council.
But according to Jacob Ress-Mogg it was because the residents had no common sense that over 70 people died.  Mr Rees-Mogg says it is common sense to ignore the instructions of the fire brigade in the event of a fire.


According to Rees Mogg, it’s nothing to do with the fact the Tory Council wrapped the building in highly flammable material – it is the fault of the stupid people living there.


Mr Rees-Mogg didn't actually say that id he. I saw the interview on the news, and he said that the common sense thing to do was leave the building. Nothing wrong with that. I have never worked anywhere in my 48 year career without that advice forming the most important and first thing that you need to do in event of a fire, at all fire drills/training.


The residents may have been given other advice at the time of the fire, but leaving any burning building IS the common sense thing to do. Surely you agree?

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #410 on: 09 November 2019, 10:11:29 PM »
 
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I saw the interview on the news, and he said that the common sense thing to do was leave the building. Nothing wrong with that.
Yes, he inferred that the people who died in Grenfell had no common sense.  That he, Jacob Rees-Mogg, would not be so stupid. 


The reason people died at Grenfell is because the building was wrapped in a flammable insulating material.  This happened under the watch of a Tory council with a Lid-Dem Tory coalition at Westminster. 



Quote
The residents may have been given other advice at the time of the fire
Would you not agree that in the event of a fire in a high rise building one might be minded to follow the instructions of the fire brigade?  That is the London Fire Brigade.   Is this the “other advice” that you talk of?   



People did use their common sense and they followed the instruction of the London Fire Brigade.  The London Fire Bridge followed best practise.  They did so in order to minimise the risk to the residents. 



But the building did not behave as normal.  The building has been effectively been wrapped in polystyrene.  The building has been turned into a death trap.
 

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #411 on: 09 November 2019, 10:19:34 PM »
 And whilst we are on the topic of Jacob Rees Mogg, it might be worth bearing in mind that this is a man who does not believe in abortion under any circumstances.


Jacob believes the law on abortion in the UK is wrong.


Jacob believes for example that if a woman is gang raped and as a result finds herself pregnant, she should thank god for the gift of life that has been bestowed upon her.


So yeah, on the one hand you have Jacob Rees Mogg who believes ordinary people died at Grenfell, not because the building was wrapped in a highly flammable material, but because they were stupid.  And he’s a man who believes getting pregnant as a result of rape is a gift from God.


Then we have Boris, who lies to the Queen, doesn’t understand his own useless deal and either does not know or won’t even tell us how many children he has fathered.


 

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #412 on: 09 November 2019, 10:27:59 PM »

mtread

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #413 on: 09 November 2019, 11:49:15 PM »
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Political control is irrelevant. The Council is the owner, whatever group is in control at the time. Councils make decisions based upon the evidence/advice supplied to them by the professional officers. Your just political point scoring, and most of us arent interested in that
No I'm not. I'm correcting a mistake where Steve suggested they are a Labour Council. Do try to read the previous posts before making accusations.
You also seem to have a strange idea of the meaning of  'responsibility'.

mtread

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #414 on: 10 November 2019, 12:06:24 AM »
.

celticdog

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #415 on: 10 November 2019, 05:55:22 PM »
The man's very rich and priviledged- nothing wrong with that live and let live and all that. The problem in the UK is the class system where these individuals get to control the populace like livestock, making decisions that put people into poverty and the like. Britain ( England especially) has never been a full meritocracy. It's worse now than it's ever been.
Treat everything in life the way a dog would- if you can't eat it or foc it, forget it.

agricola

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #416 on: 10 November 2019, 07:10:46 PM »
You can try to waffle your way around it, but do you agree or not that the common sense thing to do when inside a burning building is to leave it immediately?

mtread

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #417 on: 10 November 2019, 07:42:49 PM »
I don't waffle.
Don't you think if you are on floor 21 and told it's a smoke filled inferno below, and that the fire brigade are coming up the stairs with breathing apparatus, you'd stay put?
Don't you think that anybody (politician or otherwise) who implies that the 72 who died didn't have the common sense to save their own lives, is an absolute disgrace?
Don't you think that whoever approved the decision to wrap the building in flammable material in order to save money, and did not inform the fire brigade, is guilty of manslaughter?
Anyway, we will find out in the new year when part 2 of the Grenfell Inquest is published.

fazersharp

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #418 on: 10 November 2019, 08:23:11 PM »
I do not think that mog was implying for one second that they lacked common sense, that is not what he was saying and you know it,  shame on the people trying to score political points over this.
They did not wrap the building in "flammable" material to save money, the cladding was extra money being spent to make the tower look up-to date and attractive, they could of left it in concrete to save some money. We have very expensive "luxury" apartments in my city that now have scaffolding around them and the cladding is being removed.     
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

agricola

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #419 on: 10 November 2019, 08:58:27 PM »
I don't waffle.
Don't you think if you are on floor 21 and told it's a smoke filled inferno below, and that the fire brigade are coming up the stairs with breathing apparatus, you'd stay put?
Don't you think that anybody (politician or otherwise) who implies that the 72 who died didn't have the common sense to save their own lives, is an absolute disgrace?
Don't you think that whoever approved the decision to wrap the building in flammable material in order to save money, and did not inform the fire brigade, is guilty of manslaughter?
Anyway, we will find out in the new year when part 2 of the Grenfell Inquest is published.


Your waffling like a politician, trying to avoid a simple question,  dont be frightened. Ill answer yours, im not scared, my views are my own, Im non partisan, I make my own decisions.


1) No, I'd evacuate
2) Yes, anyone who implies that the dead were withpout common sense should be consisdered a disgrace. However, I saw the interview, and I didnt see the implication that you did. Perhaps you, and your chums, were looking for it whereas I was simply watching a news item
3) I have difficulty answering this one, since it appear to be based upon information not generally available and speculation. Id rather wait for the Inquest before jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you and your chums should too.


So, is it not the common sense thing to do to evacuate a burning building? Dont be shy

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #420 on: 10 November 2019, 09:25:29 PM »
 
Quote
If you just ignore what you are told and leave you are so much safer. And err I think if either of us was in a fire whatever the fire brigade said we would leave the burning building – it just seems the common sense thing to do. 
JRM 



I find that deeply deeply offensive.  What is particulary sickening is the "if either of us" bit, trying to draw the interviewer into his comment.  We are smart - they were stupid.


 
What is common sense?
 
Common sense - is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by ("common to") nearly all people, and can be reasonably expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.


It is quite clear what JRM was saying.  You and I – we have it.  People who live in high-rises don’t.






 

fazersharp

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #421 on: 10 November 2019, 09:44:07 PM »

I find that deeply deeply offensive.  What is particulary sickening is the "if either of us" bit, trying to draw the interviewer into his comment.  We are smart - they were stupid.
No you don't - you are just repeating what someone else has said - I too have heard that "either of us" remark on the radio from the far left commentators.
If you actually applied your own common sense you would see what mog was saying - but instead you are trying to score political points. Its not a good look and it is not working. 
« Last Edit: 10 November 2019, 09:46:34 PM by fazersharp »
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #422 on: 10 November 2019, 10:05:34 PM »
 
Quote
I too have heard that "either of us" remark on the radio from the far left commentators.
I am directly quoting Jacob Rees Mogg (JRC).  It's not difficult to find the interview on the web - check for yourself.

 

fazersharp

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #423 on: 10 November 2019, 10:53:36 PM »
Quote
I too have heard that "either of us" remark on the radio from the far left commentators.
I am directly quoting Jacob Rees Mogg (JRC).  It's not difficult to find the interview on the web - check for yourself.

 
 /quote]No you are not - that is rubbish - you are merely regurgitating  the quoting and the use of that particular section. You have basically just cut and pasted the "outrage" from other (quicker) left wing commentators than you. 
I don't think the mogg narrative is working and it is- at best backfiring on the left that is trying to score points out of it.   
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

VNA

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Re: This is NOT an attempt to start a discussion...
« Reply #424 on: 10 November 2019, 11:09:57 PM »
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If you just ignore what you are told and leave you are so much safer. And err I think if either of us was in a fire whatever the fire brigade said we would leave the burning building – it just seems the common sense thing to do. 
That's what he said.