Date: 12-12-19  Time: 01:52 AM

Author Topic: Barge like handling  (Read 1078 times)

Stinka

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Barge like handling
« on: 21 February 2019, 08:48:28 PM »
So I need to do some serious tweaking to sharpen up the front end on my gen 1.  What are the limits of raising the forks through clamps before it’s gets a bit slappy? I’m thinking I’ll go for 15mm straight away as it’s so slow to tip in. Loads of dive under braking and the preload is pretty much all the way out, I’m 23 stone lol so I’m going to need to wind it right in a fair bit me thinks ... any suggestions?




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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #1 on: 21 February 2019, 09:02:53 PM »
To be honest I doubt there is much the standard forks are gonna do with 23 stone bearing down on them. You have to remember these bikes are all design in Japan for people that are 5ft 5 and weigh 8 stone haha
 I'd be more inclined to rebuild the forks with heavier springs to suit you. If you can do the job yourself then really isn't that expensive :thumbup

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #2 on: 21 February 2019, 09:56:27 PM »
mate you wouldn't believe how much difference a clean and fresh oil will make to your bike. Ask Dynspud too, once hes had a chance to get a proper run on his recently refreshed front end thou.  ;)

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #3 on: 22 February 2019, 07:26:56 AM »
I agree with what's been suggested to improve the forks (heavier single-rate springs, new oil etc) but you need to address the rear shock first.  It was also designed for the tiny rice eater who tested the bike and is good for a 13st rider in gear.  That's when new so by now it's well past it's best.

With the rear sagging so deep, you will never get the front end weight bias you desire no matter how far through the yokes you pull the fork legs. :)

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #4 on: 22 February 2019, 08:24:49 AM »
You need a bit of fresh springing Stinka! Makes a huge difference to how the bike behaves, it did with mine.


As for fork dropping through the yokes, I did this, and it certainly sharpened up the steering, but made the bike ‘flop’ into bends which felt a little odd to me.
As an alternative, I put the forks back to normal, and raised the rear 2”. It cured the flop, kept the neutral steering, and made her a hell of a lot sharper on the twisties. Might not work for everyone, but I’m built like a giraffe with very long legs.


Just my 2p worth.
Stop polishing it and ride the bloody thing!!

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #5 on: 22 February 2019, 11:34:02 AM »
I have the s1000rr shock to fit when I can get around to it. I’ll probably get ktec or someone to redo the forks after that. Anyone decent in the midlands to do my forks ?

Old-Git

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #6 on: 22 February 2019, 12:50:46 PM »
I have the s1000rr shock to fit when I can get around to it. I’ll probably get ktec or someone to redo the forks after that. Anyone decent in the midlands to do my forks ?
Parkitt Performance near Newark

unfazed

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #7 on: 22 February 2019, 04:44:33 PM »
As stated in one of the earlier posts fix the rear first, anything over 20stone will need a spring change on the S1000rr shock.
Dropping the front will only make it turn in faster, the Fzs1000 has a tendency to run wide out of bends especially when giving it the beans and dropping the front won't fix that, it needs a lot of work to reduce/stop it.
It can be done with just upgrading the fork springs and increase the the fork oil to 7.5w minimum, playing around with the compression and rebound damping, but is a slow process
I have noticed over the years that oils from different companies do not work the same even if they have the same weight markings. 





Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #8 on: 22 February 2019, 05:45:51 PM »
As stated in one of the earlier posts fix the rear first, anything over 20stone will need a spring change on the S1000rr shock.
Dropping the front will only make it turn in faster, the Fzs1000 has a tendency to run wide out of bends especially when giving it the beans and dropping the front won't fix that, it needs a lot of work to reduce/stop it.
It can be done with just upgrading the fork springs and increase the the fork oil to 7.5w minimum, playing around with the compression and rebound damping, but is a slow process
I have noticed over the years that oils from different companies do not work the same even if they have the same weight markings.


Running wide out of bends is exactly it ! I’ve wound the preload in to no rings showing and it still dives badly. Using 110mm of travel on spirited riding with some hard braking. It seems the first 2 inches of the spring are just pure sag and slop , maybe someone put progressive springs in at some point. Either way they’re pretty shagged, time for a rebuild

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #9 on: 22 February 2019, 07:31:39 PM »
https://youtu.be/wUuv2U_Ie7c


Looks very easy tbh. My best pal is an engineer and I reckon we’ll piss that between us


Where to order linear springs and oil from ?

unfazed

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #10 on: 22 February 2019, 09:10:50 PM »
As stated in one of the earlier posts fix the rear first, anything over 20stone will need a spring change on the S1000rr shock.
Dropping the front will only make it turn in faster, the Fzs1000 has a tendency to run wide out of bends especially when giving it the beans and dropping the front won't fix that, it needs a lot of work to reduce/stop it.
It can be done with just upgrading the fork springs and increase the the fork oil to 7.5w minimum, playing around with the compression and rebound damping, but is a slow process
I have noticed over the years that oils from different companies do not work the same even if they have the same weight markings.


Running wide out of bends is exactly it ! I’ve wound the preload in to no rings showing and it still dives badly. Using 110mm of travel on spirited riding with some hard braking. It seems the first 2 inches of the spring are just pure sag and slop , maybe someone put progressive springs in at some point. Either way they’re pretty shagged, time for a rebuild
On EU models standard fork springs are progressive and go from .83kg to 1.2kg but the US imports are softer at the top .78kg. I changed mine to stiffer wilbers progressive, but still found the soft setting to soft but not as bad as the originals. I did not go linear because I go two up a lot.
With the original springs and original oil (which is about 5W), I used these settings to start (I'm about 13.5 stone with all gear on)

Front: drop forks 5mm through yokes.
Compression: five turns back from max.
Rebound: six turns back from max. finally took it in to 4, improved the running wide a bit.
Preload: maximum no rings showing.


With Wilbers and 7.5W oil
Front: drop forks 10mm through yokes. (12 to 15mm made it turn in top quick with the Sportec M7RR)
Compression: six clicks back from max. Started at eight and worked back
Rebound: four clicks back from max. Started at 8 and worked back
Preload: maximum no rings showing.
I found that the rebound had more effect as I felt it appeared to be rebounding too quick and causing it to run wide, by slowing the rebound it improved.
The problem was I used different make of oil last time and my original settings before that no longer worked.
A word of caution when putting the forks back together if you strip them, set the rebound adjusters off the bike to half way, it is around 40 clicks from soft out to hard. Otherwise you may end up not being able to adjust it properly when assembled. Otherwise you may not be able to adjust them to full hard, I found out the hard way  :'(


Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #11 on: 22 February 2019, 09:38:41 PM »
Cheers for that mate ! More tweeking required in the short term, before I tare them down and start again

unfazed

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #12 on: 22 February 2019, 10:42:09 PM »
 :thumbup

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #13 on: 23 February 2019, 08:32:21 PM »
I have the s1000rr shock to fit when I can get around to it. I’ll probably get ktec or someone to redo the forks after that. Anyone decent in the midlands to do my forks ?
Parkitt Performance near Newark
Revs racing, Halesowen

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #14 on: 25 February 2019, 10:19:09 AM »
Right, I’m taking it in the get the forks done. I’m 23stone lol, so I’m thinking 10wt oil and 10nm/mm linear springs? Anyone know if that sounds right ?

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #15 on: 25 February 2019, 03:25:17 PM »
Sounds good, I'm a similar weight to you and that's what I have in my forks  :thumbup  I found raising the back end helped a lot with handling, I'd reccomend a 25mm Jack-up kit if you're not too short in the leg department - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K-Yamaha-FZS1000-Fazer-00-05-Jack-Up-Kit-25mm-Dog-Bones-Suspension-Linkages-/223098198451 - I have these fitted along with my Nitron shock at max ride height adjustment.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2019, 03:29:25 PM by PieEater »

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #16 on: 25 February 2019, 04:40:07 PM »
I’ve taken it to https://www.bikerzracing.co.uk/


Seems to know his stuff, loads of race bikes and stuff in there. He’s going to sort it anyway

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #17 on: 28 February 2019, 03:58:45 PM »
Forks done, he’s put 10.5kg liner springs and 10wt oil in


Says the compression adjusters were sized and he tried a few ways of getting them free but said they’re fucked


What affect will they have on fork action ?


Forks were a sloppy spongy mess, I’m expecting a totally different experience now but these adjusters being siezed is a bit pants

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #18 on: 28 February 2019, 04:09:07 PM »
Forks done, he’s put 10.5kg liner springs and 10wt oil in


Says the compression adjusters were sized and he tried a few ways of getting them free but said they’re fucked


What affect will they have on fork action ?


Forks were a sloppy spongy mess, I’m expecting a totally different experience now but these adjusters being siezed is a bit pants
Quote


According to this post from Falcon I just found, the bottom adjusters only affect low speed handling ? Not a problem really as I Don’t tend to hang around lol (probably interpreted this wrong, but anyway:D )


Here's my take on it, having had several aftermarket shocks on my Fazer, together with K-tech modded Fazer forks and then K-tech modded R1 forks. :) The stock shock is undersprung, poorly damped and usually dies after about 10k miles.  It can be refreshed and resprung, and revalved if that's what you want but the cost works out more than fitting an R6 shock with appropriate dogbones.The R6 shock is much better quality than the Fazer OEM item but not quite as good as a quality aftermarket shock.  I've had Hyperpro and Ohlins on mine over the years but I now have the R6 version and frankly there's barely any discernible difference for fast road use.  Certainly not the way I ride these days. :)   Rider weight 70kgs not including kit.The stock forks are fitted with dual rate springs which are too soft in the first part of their stroke and too stiff in the latter.  In addition, the hi-speed compression damping (non-adjustable, determined by the crude design of the valves) makes for a jarring ride which can't be fully dialled out with the damping adjuster, since they only alter low-speed damping response.  The rebound damping is too little which means that using thinner fork oil to improve the ride quality can lead to too little rebound damping, even with the adjusters on max.I've tried OEM forks fitted with Hyperpro progressive springs and they are a worthwhile improvement over stock for a reasonable outlay.  Fully modded OEM forks (K-tech, Maxton, take your pick and pay your money) are a bigger step forward and the revalving resolves the issues mentioned above.  R1 fork conversions usually alter the steering geometry (depends on what you do with the yokes and fork lengths), making the bike steeper and quicker to turn.  My R1 forks have K-tech internals which make for a quality ride in addition to the quicker steering response.  For heavier riders, the loss of a little ground clearance might be an issue but for me it's not been a problem.So, what to recommend to the OP?  The R6 shock is as good as you need, IMHO.  I suggest you consider fitting linear rate springs appropriate to your weight (speak to K-tech, Maxton etc for advice) along with whatever fork oil and air gap they suggest.  Drop the forks through the yokes 10mm and see how it goes from there.  If you plan on keeping the Fazer, consider spending more on a complete fork revalve.  It will be worth it in the long run and will be as good for you as dropping time and money into an R1 front end with unmodded R1 forks.Just my five pennyworth, of course. :)
« Last Edit: 28 February 2019, 04:10:13 PM by Stinka »

Old-Git

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #19 on: 01 March 2019, 10:13:49 AM »
10w Oil in the forks and standard is 2.5w (IIRC?) I was going to go with 5w, with the Wilbers springs I've just ordered..... any opinions anyone?

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #20 on: 02 March 2019, 10:32:25 AM »
So got it back, forks are mint, nice and stiff just how I Like it.


But another problem still exists from before, when I boot it and then shut the throttle sharp it goes a bit slappy as the weight transfers back forward ? I’m thinking this is the rear shock. I’ve got an s1000rr shock and a yellow cbr1000rr spring to go on that, hopefully this will sort it ...

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #21 on: 02 March 2019, 12:51:15 PM »
Which S1000rr shock is on it, The one with the bronze Fork  or the Silver fork attaching to the linkage.If it is the silver one, set the rear static sag to 20mm which is about the limit for the standard spring without fitting a 10mm collar to the and the rebound to 5 and both compression settings to 5.See pic

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #22 on: 02 March 2019, 01:33:14 PM »
Which S1000rr shock is on it, The one with the bronze Fork  or the Silver fork attaching to the linkage.If it is the silver one, set the rear static sag to 20mm which is about the limit for the standard spring without fitting a 10mm collar to the and the rebound to 5 and both compression settings to 5.See pic


What about my cbr1000 yellow spring mentioned above ?

Stinka

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #23 on: 02 March 2019, 02:51:44 PM »
It’s the earlier gold forked one btw

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Re: Barge like handling
« Reply #24 on: 02 March 2019, 06:57:26 PM »
Unfortunately I have very little info on the Bronze version as I did all my research on the silver one. The bronze one would have made the rear to high for me and I opted for the later updated model which is slightly shorter. Raised the rear 10mm whereas the bronze would have raised it closer to 20mm.The stock setting of the s1000rr was what I used as a base line and but for my 89kg in full gear it was slightly to soft and i upped  the standard settings one notch.
The standard settings for the Bronze shock are
Rebound Adjuster on Fork is 4Low speed compression Inner adjuster is 4High speed compression Outer adjuster is 6
Would be a good base setting
Be cautious with the CBR1000RR shock as not all will fit are are about 10Kg,  I think the physical size you need is 55-155-75 this will not fit the Silver one as it is 55-155-80