Date: 06-12-19  Time: 10:00 AM

Author Topic: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!  (Read 5342 times)

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #25 on: 14 March 2019, 09:07:01 PM »
Quote
04-03-2019 MAG recommends ULEZ ‘breathing space’ for motorcycles

MAG has asked London authorities to allow time with bikers to prevent an angry, administratively nightmarish chaos over ULEZ charges for motorcycles.

MAG met with former Chair of the Transport Committee on the Greater London Authority, Keith Prince AM, at London’s City Hall to seek a postponement for motorcycles from the ULEZ pollution charges for older motorbikes. This was supplemented by a formal letter (link HERE) to the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, requesting the postponement.  Reasons identified for the postponement of the charges include:
  • The Mayor and TfL haven’t yet grasped issues relating to the introduction of the ULEZ charge for older bikes. This means eleventh-hour panic could lead to ill-considered, knee jerk decisions from bikers and also from policy makers.
  • Postponing ULEZ on motorcycles has a tiny impact on emissions. By TfL’s own figures fewer than 4,000 bikes will be non-compliant with Euro 3 – a figure itself already declining through entirely legitimate individual exemptions.
  • ULEZ as it stands means the certainty of injustice, as one biker can be charged whilst riding next to a biker with an identical bike that’s exempt.
  • Postponement can still lead to charging in 2021 if evidence proves the case for it. Currently TfL has no meaningful evidence on motorcycle emissions, nor effective modelling techniques to know the positive effect of modal shift to powered two wheelers. A delay provides time to measure real world emissions and journey time-savings – which will also reduce congestion and thus secondary emissions.
  • The social impact on the poorest road users, who can often only afford older motorcycles and scooters for their commuting needs, has been totally ignored and turns the ULEZ charges into a regressive tax against the least wealthy.
  • TfL has yet to justify the disproportionate effect of charging motorcycles, which would have to pay the same as older cars, while newer cars get in for free.
MAG’s Director of Communications & Public Affairs, Lembit Öpik, warns: ‘there’s a pressing need to take all of this into account to avoid administrative nightmares and injustices. Many motorcycles facing the charge are operating at emissions levels below the ULEZ emissions thresholds. TfL would be obliged to refund any payments made by those riders. So let’s be sensible and postpone this charge, before the whole thing descends into chaos.’


So I have renewed my ancient subs to MAG, due to the work they are doing on our behalf regarding ULEZ.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A fellow Foccer has been trying to get his bike made exempt and you should follow his progress in the following thread-

- http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=24907.msg294007#msg294007
« Last Edit: 15 March 2019, 08:27:05 AM by b1k3rdude »

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #26 on: 22 March 2019, 04:43:56 PM »
FZS600 is a no no.... (see below from Yamaha) might be worth someone asking about the FZ6


Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your enquiry.
We do however regret to advise that only models constructed to comply with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, regulations that were not fully introduced until 2003, will qualify for a CoC.
Due to the age of your machine it was not subject to European Whole Type Approval testing, in this instance we can only advise the NOx output for the Model code, therefore a machine of that model of a similar age, which was 0.185 (g/km).
We apologise we are not able to be of assistance.
Kind Regards


Customer Service[/b] [/font]

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #27 on: 24 March 2019, 11:05:41 PM »
This is interesting

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ulez_exemptions_for_pre_euro_3_m
MAG's recent Freedom of Information request to TFL about exemptions. From tfl's response it looks like exemptions will have to be on a bike by bike basis, rather than attributed to whole models.


midden

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #28 on: 27 March 2019, 03:05:25 PM »
FZS600 is a no no.... (see below from Yamaha) might be worth someone asking about the FZ6


Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your enquiry.
We do however regret to advise that only models constructed to comply with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, regulations that were not fully introduced until 2003, will qualify for a CoC.
Due to the age of your machine it was not subject to European Whole Type Approval testing, in this instance we can only advise the NOx output for the Model code, therefore a machine of that model of a similar age, which was 0.185 (g/km).
We apologise we are not able to be of assistance.
Kind Regards


Customer Service


what year is you fox   mtread
Women have chocolate men have bikes.....
including ones who like chocolate....;)

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #29 on: 27 March 2019, 03:31:16 PM »
2003 model, registered in Nov 2002. Last of the Foxeyes with the tuning forks logo on the tank. Don't think they come any later.

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #30 on: 14 May 2019, 09:08:51 PM »
If they spell emissions correctly, it could possibly affect me. But no, not while there are grammatical errors to be found  :b


/grammar nazi

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #31 on: 15 May 2019, 12:03:10 AM »
Grammar and Spelling are two entirely different things :b


/pedant nazi

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #32 on: 24 May 2019, 09:01:49 PM »
So I have done a freedom of info request to TFL - I want to know exactly what kit is required to test bikes for NOx and create a CoC.

Superbikehire in east london atm are the only place I know of, but they are charging £175 and they wont guarantee a pass - smells like a cash gouging scam so decided I would like to know how they can justify this cost and why some bikes wont pass.

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #33 on: 25 May 2019, 01:14:07 AM »
As someone who has had to answer FOI requests in the past, I fear you will be fobbed off. TFL will say that any testing station /dealer that has approved kit for testing NOx to a Euro 3 standard can provide TFL with results. So far only one dealer has applied to do this, but they have asked for others to apply. The fee is a commercial decision by the garage, nothing to do with them.
The CoC is the result of the test carried out by the manufacturer. A trustworthy source.
The question needing to be asked is why don't TFL accept that bikes of the same model /year as one that has a CoC should also be exempted? Why do all bikes of the same type need their own CoC, when they are identical (in terms of NOx).
As I said, anybody taken to court for a bike identical to one TFL have passed, would win.

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #34 on: 29 May 2019, 06:59:15 PM »
  • So far only one dealer has applied to do this, but they have asked for others to apply.
  • The CoC is the result of the test carried out by the manufacturer. A trustworthy source.

  • That exactly why I have made an Foi request, why has only one dealer in all of London done this.
  • SuperBikeHire are saying they produce CoC reports - what makes them more or as trustworthy as a manufacturer?
Anyway a summary of my Foi request -
Quote

Dear Mr xxxxxx

TfL Ref: FOI-0565-1920
Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 24th May 2019 asking for information about the equipment used to test motorcycles for ULEZ exemption.
Your request will be processed in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act and our information access policy. 
A response will be sent to you by 24th June 2019. We publish a substantial range of information on our website on subjects including operational performance, contracts, expenditure, journey data, governance and our financial performance. This includes data which is frequently asked for in FOI requests or other public queries. Please check http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/ to see if this helps you.
We will publish anonymised versions of requests and responses on the www.tfl.gov.uk website. We will not publish your name and we will send a copy of the response to you before it is published on our website.
In the meantime, if you would like to discuss this matter further, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
xxxx
FOI Case Officer
FOI Case Management Team
General Counsel
Transport for London
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOI-0565-1920  Mr xxxx  Received 24/05/2019:
 Please confirm the make and model of equipment required to test motorcycles for ULEZ exemption, specifically testing NOx output to produce a Certificate of Conformity

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #35 on: 05 June 2019, 01:57:49 PM »
I have an 03 Foxeye 600 (FZS?)  and need to ride in to The City for work.  Plus I live inside the South Circ.
I took a punt (ok, my company paid for it) and had it tested.  Guess what??  It passed!!  It failed first time, but was so close they were able to tweak it and it passed! 

Cost an arm an a leg, but will pay for itself after about a month.  I now have a CoC from TFL.
The whole thing is BS and, as soon as it comes out to the SC I will have to get rid of the Voyager, but I am bloody well keeping the VR6!!

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #36 on: 05 June 2019, 05:17:22 PM »
That's very interesting. When I asked Yamaha about a CoC for my 03 fzs600, they said they couldn't issue one for the year/model, but their tests suggested a 'fail' at 0.18.
Goes to show the (expensive) benefits of individual testing. As you say, will save money quite quickly.

Buzz

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #37 on: 06 June 2019, 09:56:51 PM »
Cost an arm an a leg


Same bike as me, I was thinking of selling as I'm up in Camden. Can you let us know much and where you got yours tested?
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b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #38 on: 08 June 2019, 07:08:08 PM »
It failed first time, but was so close they were able to tweak it and it passed!  Cost an arm an a leg, but will pay for itself after about a month.  I now have a CoC from TFL.
I also would like to know where and how much please :-)

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #39 on: 12 June 2019, 10:37:52 PM »
That exactly why I have made an Foi request, why has only one dealer in all of London done this.
So I got a replay from TFL to my Foi request -

Quote

You asked:
Please confirm the make and model of equipment required to test motorcycles for ULEZ exemption, specifically testing NOx output to produce a Certificate of Conformity.

 The testing that would be required for motorcycles is the type-approval ‘type 1’ emissions test. This test must be performed on a dynamometer capable of being adjusted for appropriate road-load coefficients and with a driver aid capable of displaying the appropriate velocity/time co-ordinates for the legislative drive cycle for each class of motorcycle. Emissions analysis must be by a minimum of a 5 gas analyser specified to measure NOx over the required drive cycle, whilst taking account of total gas volume over the same cycle, and producing a single value in grammes/km. Emissions testing is to be carried out in accordance with the regulation ECE/TRANS/180/Add2
Please see the attached information sheet for details of your right to appeal as well as information on copyright and what to do if you would like to re-use any of the information we have disclosed.
So what is a "type-approval ‘type 1’ emissions test" and has anyone every had one done? And Dynomometer sound a lot like a dynojet rolling road...
« Last Edit: 12 June 2019, 10:43:34 PM by b1k3rdude »

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #41 on: 19 June 2019, 09:44:38 PM »

H1's are exempt anyway having the 40+ year 'Historic Vehicle' status.


The link says that the two stroke bikes passed the NOx test, but it doesn't mention anything about the CO2 levels. Did they pass those?.


If the two stroke bikes easily passed the test fully, then I'd expect ANYTHING to get through :rolleyes .


I bet there's more to this than the story lets on ;)


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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #42 on: 19 June 2019, 10:51:16 PM »


The link says that the two stroke bikes passed the NOx test, but it doesn't mention anything about the CO2 levels. Did they pass those?.


Apparently they only test for NOx, so surely anything can pass if those bikes did? :rolleyes
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mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #43 on: 19 June 2019, 11:30:21 PM »
Quote
Apparently they only test for NOx, so surely anything can pass if those bikes did?

Perhaps they couldn't read the dial for all the smoke  :)

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #44 on: 26 June 2019, 09:08:02 AM »
So I too asked Yamaha if they could give me any NOX info so I could apply for an exemption for my '02 fzs600. The NOX limit for TfL exemption is 0.15g/km, You can see from their reply below that they reckon it might be slightly over if compared to 'similar' bikes.

From Yamaha:


[size=inherit]Thank you for your enquiry.[/size][/color]We do however regret to advise that only models constructed to comply with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, regulations that were not fully introduced until 2003, will qualify for a CoC.Due to the age of your machine it was not subject to European Whole Type Approval testing, in this instance we can only advise the NOx output for the Model code, therefore a machine of that model of a similar age, which was 0.185 (g/km).We apologise we are not able to be of assistance.[/si
« Last Edit: 26 June 2019, 09:57:48 AM by pezos »

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #45 on: 16 September 2019, 07:41:17 PM »
So after yet more research I found out which government dept to contact to go about getting my bike/s (2006 GSF1200 and 2005 FZS1000) tested to obtain my own EWVTA Certificate of Conformity. I emailed said dept enquiries@vca.gov.uk  and got the following reply -
Quote
Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 18 August 2019, concerning the above.

The Certificate of Conformity comes from the manufacturer.
Although DVSA carry out the MSVA testing (as we have the facilities to do so) we cannot make a decision on which vehicles require the testing prior to registration. The DVLA are the authority who will register the bike so it is their decision what paperwork (if any) will need to be submitted to them to allow registration to occur as multiple methods can be used (be it MSVA certificate, Certificate of Conformity etc).

The DVLA email service can be found here -

- 0300 790 6801 for drivers queries.
- 0300 790 6802 for vehicle queries.

To be able to permanently register a motorcycle, quad or trike, that is less than 10 years old in the UK  with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) , you must either provide proof of European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) obtained from the manufacturer, or put the vehicle through a Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) test.

You can find the MSVA application form here and you can view the fees for the MSVA test here.

Kind regards,

Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | The Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN

------------------------------------------------------
From: bikerdude
Sent: 18 August 2019 12:39
To: enquiries@vca.gov.uk
Cc: Enquiries <Enquiries@dvsa.gov.uk>
Subject: ECWVTA and COC - how to obtain for Motorcycle

To the VCA & VLSA,

I own a 2005 Yamaha FZS 1000 motorcycle that I learned a few years after purchasing it, that it was originally a US model imported into the UK.  How do I go about getting CoC certificate from yourselves for my motorcycle as stated near the top of the page on the following government website –

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval

I am having to email my inquiry as the above page doesn’t state or link to anywhere where or how to get the CoC for an imported vehicle.

Kind regards

Now I looked at the MSVA application form and the webpage I downloaded it from and it doesn't state anywhere on that form (typical government inter-dept failings) that the bike needs to be less than 10 years old, but as I don't have to pay anything upfront I have nothing to loose by trying to get both bikes tested.

b.

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #46 on: 16 September 2019, 07:58:24 PM »
If you read the thread in the FZS1000 forum, you'll see Yamaha will let you have a CoC (for £60) showing your bike has a NOx level that is exempt. Then you just send it to TFL....

b1k3rdude

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #47 on: 16 September 2019, 10:51:57 PM »
If you read the thread in the FZS1000 forum, you'll see Yamaha will let you have a CoC (for £60)
I believe this is only on bikes manufactured in europe, mine is a US import that was converted to UK spec.

Got a link to the above thread?
« Last Edit: 16 September 2019, 10:54:07 PM by b1k3rdude »

mtread

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #48 on: 17 September 2019, 09:27:57 AM »
I seem to remember Dazza's was the same


http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24907.0.html

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Re: London riders: New Emisions, does it effect you!
« Reply #49 on: 21 November 2019, 09:28:55 AM »
Just Checked mine and it meets the emission standards for ULEZ. :)
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