Date: 21-09-20  Time: 00:16 AM

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Messages - Grahamm

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26
General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 27 August 2020, 01:18:53 AM »
A little while ago I replaced my OEM FZ6-SA brake lines with braided ones.

The new ones are nice, but, inevitably, when doing a full replace like this on an ABS system, you can't avoid getting some air into the fluid and there was still a touch of sponginess on the front.

So a couple of days ago, I suspended the calipers from the ceiling of the shed with a nice long daisy chain of cable ties and left them there to allow the fluid to drain down and the air to bubble up.

Today I bled about half an inch of air from the system and remounted them and they're already feeling much crisper.

I've left them with a cable tie around the front brake lever and hope to get out to give them a proper check in the next few days :thumbup

27
General / Re: Voulunteering as a Blood biker?
« on: 25 August 2020, 09:56:44 PM »
if I remember right you had to buy and fit your own rack / box system hich would be permanent on your bike.

SERV Wessex down here have vehicles which riders/ drivers can use if they don't want to us their own vehicles: https://servwessex.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=137&Itemid=471

28
General / Re: Voulunteering as a Blood biker?
« on: 25 August 2020, 09:54:00 PM »
Also Members must declare their intention to use their vehicle(s) for SERV operations to their insurance provider.

[...]

But in my exp. insure co. are more than not, arseholes and will increase my premium.

I get my insurance through Cornmarket who are affiliated with the IAM and their insurance includes Class 1 Business Use because it covers Observers' rides.



29
General / Re: Voulunteering as a Blood biker?
« on: 25 August 2020, 09:51:08 PM »
And I assume that joining the local group would also incur a fee?

Yes, my local group is (I think) about £22 a year.

But you also get to go to Club Nights, join Group Rides and participate in other group events.

30
General / Re: Voulunteering as a Blood biker?
« on: 25 August 2020, 11:35:51 AM »
I don't know about the others, but IAM have only recently started On Road training again, so you may find it difficult to get an Observer as they'll probably be catching up with everyone who has missed out during the Lockdown.

To join IAM it's £149 (IIRC) including the cost of your Test Fee, plus you'll need to join your local group.

32
General / Re: Down the pub - the thread about nothing and everything
« on: 20 August 2020, 04:29:32 PM »
the foam of yesteryear contained bulls blood, and I have been caught not only in foam system discharges but deluges as well, sometimes inspecting them working and sometimes not.

And the swallows fly south in winter.

[Hands over secret plans...]

33
General / Re: Down the pub - the thread about nothing and everything
« on: 20 August 2020, 12:01:56 PM »
Phrases that mean nothing will happen:

Leave it with me
I’ll have a word
I’ll see what I can find
Consider it done!
I’ll make some calls
I’ll think about it
Certainly a possibility
Let’s come back to that
Good idea
Maybe
It’s on my list
Might see you down there
I’ll look into it

34
General / Re: Down the pub - the thread about nothing and everything
« on: 20 August 2020, 12:01:40 PM »
My 7 year old nephew showed me with pride the "telephone" he had just made from a string and two tin cans. I pulled out my iPhone and said, "That's nice, but..."

"Look at what kids your age make in China!

35
Pretty that's the part that was taken out of my forks when I had some Racetech Emulators and springs fitted, so should be sat in a box in my shed.

I dropped you a PM, but maybe you didn't see it?

If you still have the spacers, I'd be interested in taking them off your hands so I can have one set to cut down and a spare set in case anything goes wrong...  :eek

36
General / Re: I do like a bargain
« on: 13 August 2020, 12:39:12 PM »
I was looking for a new Michelin Road 5 rear tyre yesterday, and while searching i stumbled on this must have bargain.  :eek

Hey, it has *free* next day delivery, what else do you what?!  :D

37
General / Re: Down the pub - the thread about nothing and everything
« on: 11 August 2020, 06:23:58 PM »
And here's the full picture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQe3PbWVuJE  ;) 

Not  prank just a drill that went a bit further than they planned for  :rolleyes


Quite a bit further...!

I think some poor bugger is going to get told "Here's a teaspoon, start digging!"

[PS I tweaked the link on your post to fix it :thumbup ]

38
General / Re: Down the pub - the thread about nothing and everything
« on: 11 August 2020, 10:36:22 AM »
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Maybe you're having a bad day, but I'm pretty sure you're not having a "tell your boss you set off the fire suppression system at the Minnesota National Guard hangar and foamed all 10 aircraft." kinda bad day...



39
General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 10 August 2020, 12:36:16 PM »
Yesterday I finally got to try out my FZ6 properly after doing all the upgrades, which was great fun!

It feels a lot nicer to ride now, although I need to get used to the change in feeling a bit more, especially since I've hardly done any riding for the past 4 months :(


I did one of my favourite routes which I call The Cloverleaf, because it involves four loops, sort of based around Loomies cafe.


I come out of Portsmouth on the B2177, but turn right for the run up to World's End and onto the B2150, then crossing the A32 to pick up a loop of nice little country lanes, back to the A32, up past Loomies (which was pretty busy) and up to the A339 to Basingstoke.

I turn off just before the M3 onto the B3046 down towards the Candovers, then "cut the corner" by turning left at Preston Candover and going down to Spiers Lane, before picking up the 3046 again through Alresford to New Cheriton.

Then there's a run along the A272 (passing Loomies again!) and head into Petersfield, but then turn left up Bell Hill and through some really fun hairpins at Little Switzerland, back to the A32 and south again.

Normally I'd stop off at Loomies at this point to get something to eat, but it looked too busy for comfortable social distancing, so I carried on down the A32, turning off just before the M27 for a run down Pook, lane, back onto the B2177 for a blast up the back of Portsdown hill :thumbup

Oh and there was a Photographer (called The Right Bike on Facebook) taking shots on the A272, so I gave him a wave, although I realised afterwards I should have done the Foc-U salute...!

40
General / Re: speed camera
« on: 10 August 2020, 12:21:42 PM »
As far as I know the speed limit for the section you are on applies at the point of the sign and not the one you can see in the distance.

Yep, the limit changes *after* the sign, you can't "take a run" at the one in the distance.

Apparently there is a two minute "window" allowed such that if you are just approaching a sign and it changes, you don't have to dangerously slam on your brakes to try to decelerate to that limit.

41
General / Re: speed camera
« on: 10 August 2020, 11:13:39 AM »
There are average speed camera on the M27 at the moment, signed as set to 50mph. When I keep a steady 50 through them I seem to be the slowest thing out there and yes, tailgating happens a lot. (Why?)

If possible, I use alternative routes which avoid that section because it is intensely tedious, but still requires a lot of concentration to keep below the limit :(

But if I ride at 50mph according to my speedo, my sat nav says I'm actually doing about 45mph.

If I ride at an indicated 55mph, the sat nav says I'm doing 50.

42
General / Re: Noisy motorcycles.
« on: 04 August 2020, 02:31:52 AM »
Cars are excluded from this ruling.
If that's not prejudiced & biased lawmaking, I don't know what is. How did this even get passed.

It got passed by people who drive cars...

43
General / Re: New Moderator/s
« on: 03 August 2020, 11:49:06 AM »
Hear hear :thumbup

[Not looking at the Ban Hammer at all...  :lol ]

44
Just to round off this thread for anyone who finds it when searching...

I took out the OEM Spacers from the forks which (to answer my original question at the start of the thread!) are 131mm long, 37mm in diameter and have a 1.2mm wall thickness.


From my earlier experiment of unscrewing (but not removing) the fork caps, I'd estimated that about a 7.5mm change in length would be approximately what I was looking for (possibly a bit less, it was difficult to measure exactly how much I'd unscrewed them by).


So I cut two sections 123mm long from the 32mm PVC pipe and put those into the fork tube with three penny washers (each 1.5mm thick) on top of them.


After my long-suffering GF took some measurements, I got a Rider Sag figure of 30mm, so I took out one of the penny washers and got a Rider Sag figure of 36mm and a Static Sag 26mm.

Given that Hyperpro recommend a Static Sag figure of 24mm and Rider Sag of 35mm, I think that's pretty damn spot on :thumbup

I put the OEM Spacers back in and now all I need to do is someone to make another set of spacers which are 126mm long (5.1mm shorter than the originals) and I should be sorted!


(And, if, somehow, it turns out they're too short, I can always stick a washer back on top of them :thumbup )

45
General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 02 August 2020, 09:15:58 PM »
I experimented with adjusting the length of the spacers on my front forks to get the sag on the Hyperpro springs right (more in the FZ6 forum) which is now much better.

Then I finally got around to adjusting the position and tilt of the handlebars and levers so that the bike fit me rather than (as has been the case for the last 13 years) adjusting my position so I fit the bike...!  :eek


Also, I took off the right hand switch gear (which was rather full of crud :( ) and cleaned up the contacts on the Kill Switch as well as putting some silicone spray on the throttle cables to make the action smoother :thumbup

46
General / Re: New Moderator
« on: 02 August 2020, 09:03:28 PM »
And Grahamm is now on the mod team

Thank you :thumbup

47
There's every possibility you'll be in trouble withing minutes, do you really want to find out as you hit a bump or brake form 60mph? 


Gnasher, I am NOT going to be riding with that PVC tube and washers in place!!

I am going to cut a couple of lengths of it, take out the OEM spacer, put in the PVC and washers and *sit* on the bike so my GF can measure the sag.

Then I'm going to tweak the length of the tube or add or take away washers until the preload is correct to give me the right sag.

Then I'm going to put the spacers back in until I can get a set of metal ones made up.

Clear? :thumbup

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The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.

By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.


Yep that's why I've suggested putting the standard springs back in they're 10-20% less than Hyperpro and the sag will be much closer if not correct and it's your dampening that's wrong, not the springs


Damping controls the *rate* at which the spring moves, yes?

So with no damping, the spring would bounce up and down until it runs out of energy. The thicker the oil, the more slowly the fork will move.

But it is not the oil that is holding the bike up, it is the spring. The softer the spring, the more it will sag, yes, of course and vice versa, but also, with a softer spring, when the fork is under load the fork will drop more.

As I've already said, with the Hyperpro springs and their 15W oil, I am using about 80% of the fork travel under hard braking. A softer spring would mean that the fork travels further and risks bottoming out.

Changing the oil will only affect how quickly it gets to the bottom.

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I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.


the standard spacer is such that the spring is almost at it's non compress length


Yes, but I'm literally talking about changing the length by a few millimetres, not even the full 10mm that the Hyperpro bloke said.

I unscrewed the fork cap by about 7.5mm which gave around the right sag (or possibly a little more), so I'm going to try the PVC tube and washers about 5mm shorter than the OEM spacer and see what that does.

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it's the Hyperpro spring that's wrong, it's too hard for your weight, so whatever you do to it, it is not going to change it. 


Well if it is, I'll have to get another one, but I'm not currently convinced that it is. 

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There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.


Yes there is, it's inside the damping rod. 


As far as I can see, the damping rod is just a tube with a hole in it. The FZ6 has cheap suspension!

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Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!


We all learn something everyday  ;)


Well, I've seen nothing to say that the air gap has anything to do with the preload, but I'm willing to be corrected.

As far as I can see from pages like this, the air gap is there to stop the suspension bottoming at the end of the stroke:

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Oil Level
A change in oil level will affect the air compression; it does not affect damping.  However, too large an air gap in forks may cause forks to dive too fast.  Conversely, if the oil level is too high with too small an air gap, it can have a significant effect on the last bit of fork travel.

http://www.promecha.com.au/damping_oils.htm

I can see nothing there that refers to preload which is how much the spring supports the bike and rider in its natural equilibrium.

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To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:

The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.


He needs to be working somewhere's else then. 


Gnasher, I know you're trying to help, and I appreciate it, but, with no offence intended, I have one opinion from a bloke who works for a major suspension manufacturer and another from a bloke on an internet forum.

So if there's a reason why your opinion is better than his, I'd welcome hearing it.

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Adding/removing oil (changing the air gap) is just a cheap basic air spring i.e. preload. 


That is using the word "preload" in a way that I have not seen used elsewhere.

Preload controls the amount of "push" that gets the spring moving. The more preload, the more push is required before something happens.
For instance this site says "If your sag figures are too small no matter how much preload you take out, that’s a sure sign that your springs are too stiff."
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/making-sense-motorcycle-suspension-springs-tech-tips-mc-garage-technology/

Now, as mentioned, if I unscrewed the fork caps by 7.5mm, it gave about the right level of sag, or perhaps a bit more. But that has nothing to do with the oil level.

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I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.


Mate, what you're doing is trying to rectify one mistake (fitting higher rated springs) by making and even bigger one.  The advice given hear is given to stop you 1 potentially, seriously hurting yourself or wrecking your bike, 2 to help you solve your problem.  If you don't to take it happy days, as I said earlier "it's your life" and you may well get away with it, lets hope you do.


But, with respect, what makes your advice better than that I've had from Hyperpro or heard from Dave Moss videos?

I want to get this stuff right, so if I'm going to listen to you, rather than them, please give me a good reason to.

48
Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek


It could crack/collapse the fist time you hit a bump or brake and riding around like a little old lady isn't going to give you the feed back you need, but hay it's your life mate, but have a thought for others.


I don't think you've quite understood what I was saying.


The PVC pipe and washers are *literally* only for getting the spacer length right. Then I get the right length *metal* spacer :thumbup


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That's why you need the correct weighted spring for your weight, to give you the right sag. 


The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.


By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.


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  Many owners/riders have their bikes set way too hard dampening wise, also what's going on at the back end has a big effect to what's happening at the front.   


See my other post about about setting the sag on the YSS shock :)


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Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.


Hyperpro supply a spring which is normally 10- 20% higher than standard, if that spring weight is more than your weight requires, no matter how much you cut off, it wont effect the strength, only it's travel over a given distance.  If the spring is progressive an you cut the wrong end off it will in a dramatic way.


Who said anything about cutting down the spring? I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.


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Also if you in/decrease the spring you alter the rake which again effects the handling. 


Yes, I know. The YSS rear shock has +/- 5mm adjustment if I want to tweak the turn-in rate.

Of course I can always raise the forks if necessary.


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Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.


No, dive is or high speed damping is controlled by the shim pack


There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.


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not the air gap, by reducing the air gap all you're doing is slightly increasing spring pre load, which in your case is too high already. 


Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!


To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:


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The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.


The oil thickness determines how much damping you have in the fork. More or less weight will not change the amount of damping you need.


What does help, is to reduce the spring preload: since we use progressive springs, they have a softer and harder area.


By reducing the preload , the spring will work in a softer area, giving more comfort.


There is a spacer on top of the spring. If you cut off say 10mm, the spring should be in the right range and will give you the ride you want.

Instead of cutting the original ones, making a set of new ones is often easier (since the material is quite thin, it is hard to saw or cut)

The new one may be made from steel, aluminium or PVC.

Often swer pipe (for instance) has the proper outer diameter and is quite cheap and easy to cut


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As I said above it's your life, you may get away with all of it, but if you don't someone could well have to come a clear you off the road.  Even if you do get away with it, you won't get a good set up, but it's all up to you.   


I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.

49
Mate a would advise you don't use PVC tubing, it has a nasty habit cracking and collapsing under load and the load on your front end even under mild braking or dump absorption will be significant which could mean you front end effectively collapses. 

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek

Once I've got the spacer the right length to get the sag correct (I've also bought some penny washers for fine adjustment), then I'm either going to cut down the OEM spacers or get some new ones made up :thumbup


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Fittiing Hyperpro fork springs, which are something like 10% stiffer depending on what kit you've got, for your weight was the wrong way to go. 
I don't think so. I looked at this carefully for quite a while and the OEM springs are a) 14 years old and b) too soft anyway, so I wanted something that had a bit more resistance, but simply adding preload to the existing ones could have resulted in the spring becoming rigid under hard braking.

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You could well find you need to do nothing more other than set the sag, if not you can now play with oil weight, 10 may be too much or you need 12, 15 etc. 

Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.

Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.

I did try out the new springs, taking the bike up to 60mph and then doing a hard stop (not quite full on emergency stop) and I'm using about 80% of the maximum fork travel, which is ok.


50
So, last night, about 1:45am (I normally don't go to bed until after 2am!), having not had a chance to take off the bars and the fork caps to measure the spacers, I was thinking about this again and looking at the parts diagrams of the FZ6 and suddenly realised that, of course, I'd replaced the fork springs.

Naturally the springs must be around the same internal diameter as the fork tubes, so there I was, in the middle of the night, heading down the garden in my dressing gown, carrying a vernier gauge!!

A few minutes of measuring later and I'd discovered that the OEM springs are about 36.75mm in diameter. Not long after that I'd bought a 1 metre piece of 32mm diameter (stock size) PVC tubing which should turn up in a couple of days, then I can start experimenting with shorter versions to adjust the preload and get the right sag up front :thumbup

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