Date: 05-08-20  Time: 17:36 PM

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Messages - Grahamm

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General / Re: Noisy motorcycles.
« on: 04 August 2020, 02:31:52 AM »
Cars are excluded from this ruling.
If that's not prejudiced & biased lawmaking, I don't know what is. How did this even get passed.

It got passed by people who drive cars...

General / Re: New Moderator/s
« on: 03 August 2020, 11:49:06 AM »
Hear hear :thumbup

[Not looking at the Ban Hammer at all...  :lol ]

Just to round off this thread for anyone who finds it when searching...

I took out the OEM Spacers from the forks which (to answer my original question at the start of the thread!) are 131mm long, 37mm in diameter and have a 1.2mm wall thickness.

From my earlier experiment of unscrewing (but not removing) the fork caps, I'd estimated that about a 7.5mm change in length would be approximately what I was looking for (possibly a bit less, it was difficult to measure exactly how much I'd unscrewed them by).

So I cut two sections 123mm long from the 32mm PVC pipe and put those into the fork tube with three penny washers (each 1.5mm thick) on top of them.

After my long-suffering GF took some measurements, I got a Rider Sag figure of 30mm, so I took out one of the penny washers and got a Rider Sag figure of 36mm and a Static Sag 26mm.

Given that Hyperpro recommend a Static Sag figure of 24mm and Rider Sag of 35mm, I think that's pretty damn spot on :thumbup

I put the OEM Spacers back in and now all I need to do is someone to make another set of spacers which are 126mm long (5.1mm shorter than the originals) and I should be sorted!

(And, if, somehow, it turns out they're too short, I can always stick a washer back on top of them :thumbup )

General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 02 August 2020, 09:15:58 PM »
I experimented with adjusting the length of the spacers on my front forks to get the sag on the Hyperpro springs right (more in the FZ6 forum) which is now much better.

Then I finally got around to adjusting the position and tilt of the handlebars and levers so that the bike fit me rather than (as has been the case for the last 13 years) adjusting my position so I fit the bike...!  :eek

Also, I took off the right hand switch gear (which was rather full of crud :( ) and cleaned up the contacts on the Kill Switch as well as putting some silicone spray on the throttle cables to make the action smoother :thumbup

General / Re: New Moderator
« on: 02 August 2020, 09:03:28 PM »
And Grahamm is now on the mod team

Thank you :thumbup

There's every possibility you'll be in trouble withing minutes, do you really want to find out as you hit a bump or brake form 60mph? 

Gnasher, I am NOT going to be riding with that PVC tube and washers in place!!

I am going to cut a couple of lengths of it, take out the OEM spacer, put in the PVC and washers and *sit* on the bike so my GF can measure the sag.

Then I'm going to tweak the length of the tube or add or take away washers until the preload is correct to give me the right sag.

Then I'm going to put the spacers back in until I can get a set of metal ones made up.

Clear? :thumbup

The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.

By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.

Yep that's why I've suggested putting the standard springs back in they're 10-20% less than Hyperpro and the sag will be much closer if not correct and it's your dampening that's wrong, not the springs

Damping controls the *rate* at which the spring moves, yes?

So with no damping, the spring would bounce up and down until it runs out of energy. The thicker the oil, the more slowly the fork will move.

But it is not the oil that is holding the bike up, it is the spring. The softer the spring, the more it will sag, yes, of course and vice versa, but also, with a softer spring, when the fork is under load the fork will drop more.

As I've already said, with the Hyperpro springs and their 15W oil, I am using about 80% of the fork travel under hard braking. A softer spring would mean that the fork travels further and risks bottoming out.

Changing the oil will only affect how quickly it gets to the bottom.

I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.

the standard spacer is such that the spring is almost at it's non compress length

Yes, but I'm literally talking about changing the length by a few millimetres, not even the full 10mm that the Hyperpro bloke said.

I unscrewed the fork cap by about 7.5mm which gave around the right sag (or possibly a little more), so I'm going to try the PVC tube and washers about 5mm shorter than the OEM spacer and see what that does.

it's the Hyperpro spring that's wrong, it's too hard for your weight, so whatever you do to it, it is not going to change it. 

Well if it is, I'll have to get another one, but I'm not currently convinced that it is. 

There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.

Yes there is, it's inside the damping rod. 

As far as I can see, the damping rod is just a tube with a hole in it. The FZ6 has cheap suspension!

Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!

We all learn something everyday  ;)

Well, I've seen nothing to say that the air gap has anything to do with the preload, but I'm willing to be corrected.

As far as I can see from pages like this, the air gap is there to stop the suspension bottoming at the end of the stroke:

Oil Level
A change in oil level will affect the air compression; it does not affect damping.  However, too large an air gap in forks may cause forks to dive too fast.  Conversely, if the oil level is too high with too small an air gap, it can have a significant effect on the last bit of fork travel.

I can see nothing there that refers to preload which is how much the spring supports the bike and rider in its natural equilibrium.

To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:

The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.

He needs to be working somewhere's else then. 

Gnasher, I know you're trying to help, and I appreciate it, but, with no offence intended, I have one opinion from a bloke who works for a major suspension manufacturer and another from a bloke on an internet forum.

So if there's a reason why your opinion is better than his, I'd welcome hearing it.

Adding/removing oil (changing the air gap) is just a cheap basic air spring i.e. preload. 

That is using the word "preload" in a way that I have not seen used elsewhere.

Preload controls the amount of "push" that gets the spring moving. The more preload, the more push is required before something happens.
For instance this site says "If your sag figures are too small no matter how much preload you take out, that’s a sure sign that your springs are too stiff."

Now, as mentioned, if I unscrewed the fork caps by 7.5mm, it gave about the right level of sag, or perhaps a bit more. But that has nothing to do with the oil level.

I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.

Mate, what you're doing is trying to rectify one mistake (fitting higher rated springs) by making and even bigger one.  The advice given hear is given to stop you 1 potentially, seriously hurting yourself or wrecking your bike, 2 to help you solve your problem.  If you don't to take it happy days, as I said earlier "it's your life" and you may well get away with it, lets hope you do.

But, with respect, what makes your advice better than that I've had from Hyperpro or heard from Dave Moss videos?

I want to get this stuff right, so if I'm going to listen to you, rather than them, please give me a good reason to.

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek

It could crack/collapse the fist time you hit a bump or brake and riding around like a little old lady isn't going to give you the feed back you need, but hay it's your life mate, but have a thought for others.

I don't think you've quite understood what I was saying.

The PVC pipe and washers are *literally* only for getting the spacer length right. Then I get the right length *metal* spacer :thumbup

That's why you need the correct weighted spring for your weight, to give you the right sag. 

The point is that the progressive spring is already being compressed somewhat by the spacer, which is why the sag is out.

By shortening the spacer, fewer of the spring coils are being squeezed down, thus giving more sag.

  Many owners/riders have their bikes set way too hard dampening wise, also what's going on at the back end has a big effect to what's happening at the front.   

See my other post about about setting the sag on the YSS shock :)

Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.

Hyperpro supply a spring which is normally 10- 20% higher than standard, if that spring weight is more than your weight requires, no matter how much you cut off, it wont effect the strength, only it's travel over a given distance.  If the spring is progressive an you cut the wrong end off it will in a dramatic way.

Who said anything about cutting down the spring? I'm talking about shortening the spacer which compresses the spring.

Also if you in/decrease the spring you alter the rake which again effects the handling. 

Yes, I know. The YSS rear shock has +/- 5mm adjustment if I want to tweak the turn-in rate.

Of course I can always raise the forks if necessary.

Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.

No, dive is or high speed damping is controlled by the shim pack

There is no shim pack on the FZ6 forks.

not the air gap, by reducing the air gap all you're doing is slightly increasing spring pre load, which in your case is too high already. 

Err, as far as I'm aware, the air gap above the oil level has nothing to do with the preload!

To directly quote a guy from Hyperpro:

The oil level determines how much the fork goes "in" when you brake hard. So changing the oil level, does nothing when riding normal.

The oil thickness determines how much damping you have in the fork. More or less weight will not change the amount of damping you need.

What does help, is to reduce the spring preload: since we use progressive springs, they have a softer and harder area.

By reducing the preload , the spring will work in a softer area, giving more comfort.

There is a spacer on top of the spring. If you cut off say 10mm, the spring should be in the right range and will give you the ride you want.

Instead of cutting the original ones, making a set of new ones is often easier (since the material is quite thin, it is hard to saw or cut)

The new one may be made from steel, aluminium or PVC.

Often swer pipe (for instance) has the proper outer diameter and is quite cheap and easy to cut

As I said above it's your life, you may get away with all of it, but if you don't someone could well have to come a clear you off the road.  Even if you do get away with it, you won't get a good set up, but it's all up to you.   

I'm quite willing to take advice if it benefits me, but what you're saying appears to be contradicting what I've had from Hyperpro themselves or watching eg Dave Moss's videos.

Mate a would advise you don't use PVC tubing, it has a nasty habit cracking and collapsing under load and the load on your front end even under mild braking or dump absorption will be significant which could mean you front end effectively collapses. 

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not going to be using the PVC permanently  :eek

Once I've got the spacer the right length to get the sag correct (I've also bought some penny washers for fine adjustment), then I'm either going to cut down the OEM spacers or get some new ones made up :thumbup

Fittiing Hyperpro fork springs, which are something like 10% stiffer depending on what kit you've got, for your weight was the wrong way to go. 
I don't think so. I looked at this carefully for quite a while and the OEM springs are a) 14 years old and b) too soft anyway, so I wanted something that had a bit more resistance, but simply adding preload to the existing ones could have resulted in the spring becoming rigid under hard braking.

You could well find you need to do nothing more other than set the sag, if not you can now play with oil weight, 10 may be too much or you need 12, 15 etc. 

Hyperpro supply 15W fork oil with the springs, but that will, of course, only affect the damping, so I'll wait until I've got the preload right before I start playing with that.

Also, of course, if I get too much dive, I can adjust the air gap, but that's the last stage.

I did try out the new springs, taking the bike up to 60mph and then doing a hard stop (not quite full on emergency stop) and I'm using about 80% of the maximum fork travel, which is ok.

So, last night, about 1:45am (I normally don't go to bed until after 2am!), having not had a chance to take off the bars and the fork caps to measure the spacers, I was thinking about this again and looking at the parts diagrams of the FZ6 and suddenly realised that, of course, I'd replaced the fork springs.

Naturally the springs must be around the same internal diameter as the fork tubes, so there I was, in the middle of the night, heading down the garden in my dressing gown, carrying a vernier gauge!!

A few minutes of measuring later and I'd discovered that the OEM springs are about 36.75mm in diameter. Not long after that I'd bought a 1 metre piece of 32mm diameter (stock size) PVC tubing which should turn up in a couple of days, then I can start experimenting with shorter versions to adjust the preload and get the right sag up front :thumbup

So, who had "Baboons with Chainsaws" in the "What can 2020 throw at us next" Sweepstakes...?

This is a thread for anyone who, like me, has replaced the OEM FZ6-SA (2006) rear shock with a YSS one.

Because I'm only 64kg I found that the ride was too hard and, after measuring, it turned out that the Rider Sag was only 19mm (it should have been between 30-35mm!)

Unlike the OEM FZ6 rear shock which only has 7 adjustment "steps", the YSS rear shock has a collar on a screw thread which gives a whole lot of potential adjustment.

Of course this also meant that I had *no idea* how much to turn it by to get the sag I needed.

It turned out that adjusting it wasn't actually too difficult, there's a small allen bolt in the middle hole of the collar at the back of the shock (although it's screwed right in, so you can't really see it...) so you need to get in there with a long 3mm allen key (better than the little short one they supply) and take it out, then you can adjust the preload.

For me, I found that unwinding it by 1 full turn gave a 4mm increase in sag, so I then did it by 2 more turns and the sag is now 31mm which feels a lot better.


General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 26 July 2020, 09:42:26 PM »
Spent the afternoon sorting out the preload and sag on my new rear shock and fork springs (with help from a very patient and understanding girlfriend! :thumbup )
A lot more in the FZ6 forum...

General / Re: Exhaust DB levels
« on: 26 July 2020, 09:40:16 PM »
Peoples experiences of this issue appear to vary depending on where they live.

I pity the poor buggers who live at Cottage Corner on the Morestead Road down here, unless they *really* love the sound of bike exhausts (or they're deaf...)

General / Re: Exhaust DB levels
« on: 26 July 2020, 09:38:07 PM »
Mrs and I went for a walk in Upperford Copse last weekend, it's near the A32. There were many obviously large capacity bikes blatting past, clearly sporting after market cans,

Well it wasn't me, mine is still stock :thumbup

Thing is, aftermarket cans are bad for bikes because the exhaust system is designed to give a certain amount of back pressure. If that isn't there, hot gasses can escape from the cylinder and burn out the valves.

Also Fuel Injected bikes will try to adjust the mix to try to fix the problem...

Leading on from that why do 125 riders fit loud cans?

Because they think it's "cool" or "clever" or just because they like loud noises. It's not quite as ridiculous as the mopeds that belt around sounding like demented mosquitos, but it's getting there.

(The less said about the cager twats who run a rich mixture and then put a spark plug in their exhaust, the better...   :2guns )

Come to think of it what does a loud exhaust achieve that's good for anyone anywhere any time?
Well there's always the "Loud Pipes Save Lives" brigade who think that it makes people notice them more (which makes as much sense as riding around with your thumb on the horn button all the time).

What *really* saves lives is Defensive Riding and them not expecting everyone to get out of their way...

If you can wait a week, I can measure that part when I get back home.

Thanks, but I'm planning on doing some work on the suspension set up tomorrow. I was going to do it today, but the weather was crap :(

I'll just have to take the cap bolt off and measure it in situ.

I appreciate the offer anyway :thumbup

Does anyone know the dimensions (length/ external diameter) of the spacer on the front forks of the FZ6-S Fazer 04-06?

It's part 18 (or 38) on the picture.

Alternatively, does anyone know the internal diameter of the Inner Fork Tube (2 or 22)?

 I want to shorten mine to reduce the preload on the Hyperpro fork springs I bought (they're a bit too firm as I only weigh 64kg), but I want to get some PVC or aluminium tube to experiment with rather than start cutting down the OEM spacer!

General / Re: "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« on: 23 July 2020, 12:34:39 PM »
From talking with people who open the locks, from both "sides of the law", I have concluded this:

No lock is unbeatable

As I've said in previous discussions, security doesn't buy safety, it buys time.

The only thing any security system will do is to make it more difficult to steal something, but if someone is determined enough and wants to spend enough time and money, they will be able to steal whatever it is you want to protect.

The aim of security is to make it not worth their effort or money in actually stealing it, since if it's going to take them hours or thousands of pounds to steal something that's only worth £500 they're probably going to look elsewhere.

That's one of the reasons why, although I keep my bike in good mechanical order and have done various upgrades, I don't take too much effort to keep it cosmetically "perfect", because any thief will see it's a bit tatty and figure they wouldn't get much for it.

At the same time I have had the bike data tagged and use a good lock, disc lock and alarm to deter the casual joy rider who would have to put in too much work to nick it.

The Laboratory ! / Re: Youtube video embedding broken:
« on: 21 July 2020, 04:55:31 PM »
I'm using Firefox with NoScript and uBlock Origin, but I have allowed YouTube to run.

Chrome shows the link in the space where the video clip should be.

The Laboratory ! / Re: Youtube video embedding broken:
« on: 21 July 2020, 12:59:41 PM »
I can see that ok...
Might something in your browser settings be blocking it?

General / Re: Behind bars!
« on: 21 July 2020, 12:35:29 AM »
would like to try them if the concensus is they are a good mod?

The question (which only you can answer) is "Are they a good fit *for you*?"

Have a look at this video and ask yourself: "If I put these on the bike, am I going to have to adjust my arm position/ posture to fit the bars, or will they go into the place where I need them to be for my comfort?"

General / A question for the FOC-U Moderators
« on: 20 July 2020, 11:33:59 PM »
Two threads have vanished.

Not moved, but apparently permanently deleted since my account no longer even lists any posts from those threads.

There was no requests to tone things down, there were no warnings, there was no locking of the threads to give people a "Time Out".

The threads have just been deleted.

I (and, I'm sure, others) would be interested to know who did this and whether the decision made unilaterally.

General / "Uncuttable" bike locks...?
« on: 20 July 2020, 05:07:10 PM »
From today's New Scientist magazine:

A new artificial material effectively cannot be cut, holding out the promise of lightweight but cut-proof bike locks, security doors and protective clothing.

Its inventors embedded ceramic spheres in aluminium foam to create a material that couldn’t be cut with angle grinders, power drills or water jet cutters. They dubbed it Proteus after the shape-shifting Greek god, for the way the material metamorphosised in different ways to defend against attacks.

Ok, it's not going to stop someone picking the bike up if it's not chained to something secure, but it should stop the "two scrotes with a moped and an angle grinder" sort of thefts...
 :thumbup  :thumbup

General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 18 July 2020, 04:25:06 PM »
So, I finally got to try out the bike with all the mods in place and it's definitely very nice to ride!

I do need to do some work on the suspension settings, I think I need reduce the preload and get some more sag on the rear (I only weigh 64kg, so I think it's a bit too harsh as stock.

Also I might reduce the oil level on the fork springs slightly too, for pretty much the same reason.

But the braided lines and ignition advancer give much better power control :thumbup

General / Re: what did you do with your fazer today ?
« on: 17 July 2020, 10:25:37 PM »
At last got the replacement side stand in place and took the bike for a good ride around the block to check everything is working (seems so) and there's no sign of the engine dying as happened last weekend!

Tomorrow I plan on getting out for my first proper fun ride (ie not being loaded down with luggage!) and seeing what it's like with the new rear shock, fork springs, 4 degree ignition advancer and braided brake lines...   :thumbup

FZ6 / Fazer / Re: Back to riding again! (Hopefully)
« on: 16 July 2020, 09:01:11 PM »
I've got the FZ6-S rather than S2, but here's a list of things I wrote for the people who kept asking the same question on the Facebook FZ6 forum...

Provided it's had reasonable care taken of it, they're good, reliable bikes.

Here's some stuff to check before you buy it...

Firstly, the FZ6 drops into first gear like the Crack of Doom! This is, incredibly, absolutely normal.

Check the exhaust headers for signs of rust. If they're bad, it means other, important work probably hasn't been done.

Put the bike on the centre stand and get someone to push down on the back. Using fingertip pressure, tip the handlebars to one side and the other and see if you can feel any grinding, clicking or rough sensations which could indicate the headset bearings are knackered (which is a bugger of a job to fix!)

Also take hold of the front wheel and see if you can pull the forks back and forth which would also indicate a dodgy headset.

Bounce the forks up and down and look for any signs of oil leaking from the fork seals.

Check the rear shock and see what condition it's in. Clean? Rusty? Can you change the preload setting or is it stuck in place because it's never been moved and it's covered in crud?

Put your finger under the chain a little bit back from the centre stand and try to push it up against the swing arm. If it goes really easily or you can't get it there at all, it's too loose or tight. If it takes a bit of effort to hold it there, the tension is probably ok.

Feel the gaps between the teeth on the rear sprocket, if you can feel a "lip" or a "hook" instead of a smooth curve, it's on the way out and would need replacing as well as the front sprocket and chain.

With the rear wheel off the ground, check to see if you can wiggle the wheel or swing arm back and forward or from side to side. Either could mean knackered bearings which would need to be replaced.

Run the bike until it's warm, then switch off and let it sit for a few minutes. Check the oil level on the centre stand and make sure it's ok.

Other things to ask...

If it's done nearly 24k (or 48k) miles, ask if the valve clearances have been checked, if they haven't and they need new shims, that's an expensive job if you get it done by a mechanic.

The brake pipes are supposed to be replaced every 4 years, so ask if they've been done (although I'm just doing mine after 14 and they were fine, I just want braided lines   :)

Ask if the spark plugs and oil filter have been changed (recommended every 12k miles) air filter (25k miles)

None of these last ones are necessarily critical, the FZ6 is pretty reliable, but it would show that the bike has been cared for.

There's probably more, but that's a few to be going on with!

If you're happy with it, enjoy! :thumbup

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