Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial

General => General => Topic started by: steve 10562cc on 02 November 2018, 08:31:06 AM

Title: BREXIT
Post by: steve 10562cc on 02 November 2018, 08:31:06 AM
There you are VNA  a thread all of your own for all your clap trap on Brexit and other politics.    ENJOY 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 02 November 2018, 09:35:28 AM
Snigger  :nana
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 09:38:31 AM

So it's been withdrawn from the collective subject?. Was there a referendum supporting this decision?.
If so, is the result still valid in light of recent events?.


 :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 02 November 2018, 09:58:51 AM
Yeah, but I bet you all still come in and have a look, won't you  :pokefun
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Dynspud on 02 November 2018, 10:05:42 AM
Nice one YamFazFan  :rollin :rollin :rollin
Good to see someone keeping it light-hearted.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 10:29:49 AM

Yeah, but I bet you all still come in and have a look, won't you  :pokefun


 :lol I bet as well, but they won't be able to post or it'd give the game away lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 02 November 2018, 10:58:12 AM
Yeah, but I bet you all still come in and have a look, won't you  :pokefun


I'm back for another look
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 11:07:30 AM

Right anyone else want in on The Brexit debate?.


If so make sure you're settled around the table by the time VNA gets home from work this evening.


And to the rest of you, NO listening at the keyhole!.
 :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Frosties on 02 November 2018, 11:54:57 AM
So VNA....can you run me through this Brexit thing again and why we voted to cancel Breakfast ?

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 02 November 2018, 12:03:44 PM
Yeah, but I bet you all still come in and have a look, won't you  :pokefun


I absolutely, definitely, promise, cross my heart, won't.  :tape


Careful though fellas. Thread title says just for VNA. 9 posts in and he's about the only one not to comment so far  :lol
Better leave him some room at the bottom - a LOT of room  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 02 November 2018, 12:59:16 PM
Brilliant, no posting, no dissent. So on this thread we can all agree that Brexit is a disaster, we need another referendum to overturn it, and if not Scotland can go independent :D


Careful now.......
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 02:39:25 PM
Brilliant, no posting, no dissent.

 In other words what anyone apart from the left refers to as 'free speech' :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Frosties on 02 November 2018, 04:28:34 PM
Brilliant, no posting, no dissent. So on this thread we can all agree that Brexit is a disaster, we need another referendum to overturn it, and if not Scotland can go independent :D


Careful now.......


Scotland - you mean that bit at the top where they get a Commons seat because the SNP win a constituency of 10 votes  :wall
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 02 November 2018, 06:07:25 PM
 
Quote
What a surprise! This thread has been hi jacked again by political verbal masturbation.
 
 
 I'll be back when this has all died down.
 
 If you want to show how much you remember from your crap grade A level Politics exam, start your own thread and leave this formerly interesting thread alone.
 
 
 Please?
Ogri – it wis Ogri that started it.  VNA never starts political discussions.  And I have most certainly never started a political thread.  But I see no reason why I should not offer my opinion if others choose to make political comments or if others start political threads.  However, as is often the case with those who do kick off with political comments, they do so seeking approval and applause from others and cannae handle it when somebody offers an opposing view. (no Ogri not guilty this time).


Oh, as a parting shot on BREXIT, Standard and Poor – the credit rating and financial research agency has just published it’s assessment of a No Deal Brexit.  They are independent and have no political axe to grind.
  [url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-no-deal-recession-economy-finance-standard-poors-forecast-ratings-a8609891.html]https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-no-deal-recession-economy-finance-standard-poors-forecast-ratings-a8609891.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-no-deal-recession-economy-finance-standard-poors-forecast-ratings-a8609891.html)[/url]

 Basically, a No Deal Brexit leaving the UK outside of a customs union will trash the UK economy.
 

 


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 06:44:39 PM

I think ogri started a "gets my goat" thread asking why mps didn't get on with getting the best deal with Brexit, as opposed to actually starting a Brexit debate. :)
but then im not a left winger, so i'm probably wrong :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 06:44:56 PM

I'd have thought house prices falling by 10% was a good thing!.


Makes them more affordable for first time buyers and doesn't affect those who already own because everyone else's drops too.


Bring it on I say.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 06:48:40 PM
you gotta love the left. Diane abbot can say stuff like "white mothers aren't as good as black mothers". Jeremy Corbyn can make every jew in Britain be afraid of labour getting into power. and yet those of us who voted for Brexit for whatever our own personal reasons (mine was I hate bullies) are the racists..
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 07:09:26 PM
in truth, I think the political arguing on here isn't too bad...most attack the opinion rather than the individual, which is how it should be. I got a mate in Northumberland who is politically the polar opposite of me, and Christ do we give each other grief over it when we are feeling "baity", but hes still one of me best mates. And the end of the day, were all just blokes with individual opinions based upon how stuff has affected us or our areas/families, and none of us are enemies, real or imagined
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Dynspud on 02 November 2018, 07:22:36 PM
Well said mate.
As I've always said.....life's too short  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 07:29:04 PM
that it is dave! Im flogging loads of bike gear on ebay to fund our Show day purchases btw lol..
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Dynspud on 02 November 2018, 07:35:23 PM
When you say old bike gear, is this stuff you bought on impulse before and never used??  :lol
I know exactly what that feels like Paul.
I've got soooo many things that were "must haves" at the time but I never used afterwards.


We'll have to keep an eye on each other mate and make sure we don't do anything stupid & expensive  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 07:38:51 PM

just keep me away from that frigging triumph stand bud...ooh that new 1200 scramblers nice. but 6-7 times the cost of me fazer!?!?! I dont think so, id rather have half a dozen thou's in the garage..
sorry, this is not Brexit arguing, I do apologise.
as you were..
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 02 November 2018, 07:50:11 PM

you gotta love the left. Diane abbot can say stuff like "white mothers aren't as good as black mothers". Jeremy Corbyn can make every jew in Britain be afraid of labour getting into power. and yet those of us who voted for Brexit for whatever our own personal reasons (mine was I hate bullies) are the racists..


The mystery to me is how the left ever assumed the moral high ground on such issues.


They're the most intolerant lot there is!.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 02 November 2018, 07:54:37 PM
Quote
I think ogri started a "gets my goat" thread asking why mps didn't get on with getting the best deal with Brexit, as opposed to actually starting a Brexit debate.
And in reply I explained why they can't 'just get on with it' and then it all kicked off :eek


Quote
[size=0.85em]that it is dave! Im flogging loads of bike gear on ebay to fund our Show day purchases btw lol..[/size][/size][size=0.85em]

Hang on a minute. Off topic! :hijack Go and get your own shopping  thread  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 02 November 2018, 08:01:11 PM
lol sorry dude, my bad.. :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 08:15:25 AM
Oh, as a parting shot on BREXIT

So steve10562cc went to all the trouble of custom making a thread for you for ONE post! :rolleyes
 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 09:59:32 AM
The trouble with Brexiteers is that they won't say what they want. Like a small child at the seaside crying because they don't want an ice cream. Remainers like VNA and myself come up with solutions out of the current mess, but Brexiteers just go on and on with the 'we won' chorus, without saying what they want to happen now. They are very good at knocking things down, but useless at building things up.
So come on, what's your solutions for where we are now? Soft Brexit or hard Brexit? What should our future trading relationship be with the EU? What should happen about the land boundary in Ireland? Let's hear some positive suggestions for a change?
Sometimes I feel sorry for Theresa....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 10:13:01 AM
Like a small child at the seaside crying because they don't want an ice cream.
That's more often than not bacause they want one and get told they can't have it.
A bit like the Remainers and a second referendum/People's Vote :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 03 November 2018, 10:39:18 AM
A remainer saying the leavers are crying like petulant children!?!? I mean, seriously mate?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 10:41:26 AM
The trouble with Brexiteers is that they won't say what they want.
I'll have a go :D ....I don't want the unelected Junckers and the other unelected commisioners proposing the legislation that eventually ends up becoming law in this country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 10:47:07 AM
The trouble with Brexiteers is that they won't say what they want. Like a small child at the seaside crying because they don't want an ice cream. Remainers like VNA and myself come up with solutions out of the current mess, but Brexiteers just go on and on with the 'we won' chorus, without saying what they want to happen now. They are very good at knocking things down, but useless at building things up.
So come on, what's your solutions for where we are now? Soft Brexit or hard Brexit? What should our future trading relationship be with the EU? What should happen about the land boundary in Ireland? Let's hear some positive suggestions for a change?
Sometimes I feel sorry for Theresa....


I could equally turn that around and ask what kind of Europe do Remainers want to be a part of? Were you, for example, happy with the deal Cameron came back with just before the referendum? Or did you think he didn't need to strike any new kind of deal? Do you think everything the EU does is just fine by you? VNA doesn't think it would ever move towards a Super State scenario. And yet to many people, that is exactly where it seems to be heading. Maybe that's a good thing? Maybe there should be no separate countries in the EU anymore? Wouldn't that erode the individual character of each one though? Or is that ok too?


And were Remainers happy with the way the immigrant 'crisis' was handled? Just shooing in all and sundry, economic as well as refugee status? With hardly any checks on background? Was that wise, given the kind of countries they were coming from and the current state of affairs with Islamic extremism? Or perhaps you think there were too many to realistically do background checks on, and anyway, what could we have found out about them all individually? So is that an excuse to just let them all in? Sort it out afterwards? Do you think the member states of the EU prepared themselves sufficiently for it? Was there enough consultation on how it should be handled? Should the people of Europe have been asked what they thought? Does the EU give enough support to the countries on the 'front line'? Greece, Italy? Is it right to punish those countries who close their borders to the flood? By what right?


Tbh, I'm not fully in either camp. But that's another problem with the EU. In many ways, it is not flexible enough towards its members. And this is why some perceive that its future is as a Super State. With such attitudes, how could it be otherwise?


What do Brexiteers want? They want what anybody else wants, but they want the decisions about their future to be made closer to home than the shady dealings of Brussels, which they are told very little about. Maybe that would have been enough - to have been kept better informed. The EU says the British didn't understand what they are about. Perhaps they should have taken the time to explain it to us more clearly, or at all even, which they still haven't done. What is their end goal, in a project that is clearly still evolving? What is their plan?


But they also want their government to listen to them, to help them. At least here in the UK they can have some influence on that at election times, but they can't influence EU decisions in that way. It's hard enough for UK regions to get themselves heard at home. Even remoter government can only make that harder still. Do you think all the tendencies towards nationalism are just whimsical, occurring out of boredom? To ignore them, to ignore the issues which give rise to them, to vilify them in a knee jerk reaction, is dangerous.


But Brexit can't be seen in isolation either. It's not just Europe that is changing, but the world. Technology and communication drive things on ever faster, but people don't evolve at the same rate - can't.


They want a check on the corporate capitalism that is widening the gulf between rich and poor. The EU seems to them to exacerbate the problem, rather than address it. Oh, there have been some signs recently that they've been prepared to tinker around the edges of this. But too little, too late. Maybe they'll get to a point later where people will be happier. But if they'd listened to their people sooner, perhaps Brexit wouldn't have happened. If nothing else, it was intended as a wake-up call to the faceless politicians 'over there'. And still they show few signs of having listened. Politicians. Self-righteous, self-serving pricks. Don't blame me if I turn my back on them!


Oooh, I feel better for that  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 11:49:22 AM
That's a good post. Whatever side of the debate you're on it's worth reading to the end.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 12:04:14 PM
"Side? I am on nobody's side, because no one is on my side."
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 12:36:32 PM
But nobody has answered any of my questions...... Which is what I expected :lol :lol


As to decisions being made closer to home. Yes absolutely, but give them a clue as to what the answers are.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 12:42:16 PM
But nobody has answered any of my questions...... Which is what I expected :lol :lol 


Because the questions are too limiting in their scope. Likewise, you haven't answered mine, which I also expected  ;)  Besides which, I was under the impression that you Remainers think you have all the answers.


Quote
As to decisions being made closer to home. Yes absolutely, but give them a clue as to what the answers are.


Go on then, I'm listening...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 03 November 2018, 12:48:17 PM

v. good post Nick. I think that eloquently expresses what a lot of us are thinking. And personally, im not answering the question because I don't feel I have justify my decisions (in any respect, not just to do with Brexit) any more than I would ask you too justify yours mate. I'm a bricklayer, not a politician. But that doesn't mean I don't get a vote, or the right to cast it however I wish. If i'm wrong, and it all goes terribly pear, then i'll be proved wrong. That's life, and thats democracy. I respect your views, they are simply not the same as mine.
I honestly think too that if they did have a second referendum, the vote for leave would be even bigger. The way the jumped up eurocrats dealing with Brexit have treated us as a country and people these last two years have left most  in no doubt as to the future if we stay in the eu. And most people in this country, particularly my generation, would rather die on our feet that live on our knees.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 12:52:17 PM
I'm not a politician, like VNA and mtread. I don't have the answers. I only see the problems. But those who claim to know better should be providing us with the answers, or else shut up and leave room for those that can.


Brexit is merely a symptom. Discussions about the Irish border, customs unions etc are only details in what should be a much wider discussion. Perhaps the EU referendum came too early. These discussions should have been had first, but not just here in the UK, nor even just in the EU. Oh, my head, it's all so big, just too big!  :lol


I should probably explain, that whilst I am in neither camp completely, my sympathies at present lie more with those that voted for Brexit.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 03 November 2018, 12:57:03 PM
lol that bit was directed at mttread. my writing skills aint all that :lol :lol :lol good job im not trying to do it for a living ….
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 03 November 2018, 01:20:17 PM

I'd have thought house prices falling by 10% was a good thing!.


Makes them more affordable for first time buyers and doesn't affect those who already own because everyone else's drops too.


Bring it on I say.


Haha, I've heard that said a before. It makes me laugh because it defies logic. Think it through... The economic downturn will mean people are worse of with less access to credit. The result being people have less opportunity to buy houses and the prices fall.. (Cause and effect)... and you're saying it will help people to buy houses, the people that are now worse off with no access to credit.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 03 November 2018, 01:25:32 PM
To coin a phrase, "Brexit means dogsh*t".


I was told on Thursday I am being made redundant as a direct result of the economic contraction anticipated as a result of Brexit.


Our currency crashing makes the international company I work for less profitable for investers. The slowing of the UK economy also.


Oh well look on the brightside...?!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 01:39:14 PM
"Side? I am on nobody's side, because no one is on my side."
I was reccomending it to others who most definately are on one side or the other.
I wasn't suggesting that you were on a particular side.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 01:46:57 PM
To coin a phrase, "Brexit means dogsh*t".

'To coin a phrase' usually means it's a really well known one, in common usage.
I can honestly say I've never heard that specific one before :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 01:57:44 PM
But the customs union and the Irish border are not 'only details', they are the most important content of any deal. One affects our economic future, the other peace in Ireland.


The comments so far just appear to confirm that the Brexit vote was a negative protest vote.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 02:01:29 PM



I was told on Thursday I am being made redundant as a direct result of the economic contraction anticipated as a result of Brexit.


That is shit, and you have my sincere sympathy. Being laid off due to "anticipation" is indeed a nasty way to treat your employees, especially when no exit deal has yet been struck, so no one actually knows what things will be like. I presume they will immediately invite you back and compensate you if things go better than anticipated?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 02:10:17 PM


The comments so far just appear to confirm that the Brexit vote was a negative protest vote.


Your use of the word "just" seems rather flippant to me. If nothing changes, here in the UK, in the EU countries, around the world, expect more of the same.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 02:13:59 PM
But that doesn't mean I don't get a vote, or the right to cast it however I wish.
Quite right.
Although I've heard it said more than just a few times since the referendum, and on several occasions during the run up to it, by Remain enthusiasts, that certain groups of voters shouldn't have been allowed to paticipate.
It's mostly the younger student voters voicing the opinion that older voters should be disqualified from taking part.
Their basis for this is that the older generation tended to vote Leave in higher numbers and that it was their future that was being stymied, as they see it, by the more mature voter.
If that ain't a classic case of age discrimination I don't know what is! :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 02:16:37 PM



I was told on Thursday I am being made redundant as a direct result of the economic contraction anticipated as a result of Brexit.


That is shit, and you have my sincere sympathy. Being laid off due to "anticipation" is indeed a nasty way to treat your employees, especially when no exit deal has yet been struck, so no one actually knows what things will be like. I presume they will immediately invite you back and compensate you if things go better than anticipated?

Does it actually say.... "Anticipation Of Brexit"?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 03 November 2018, 02:21:39 PM
Not officially..


My company are a multi-national. I have seen the forecasted figures for next year (which take into account currency changes and economic contraction).


Also there is the consideration that my company manufacture all across Europe and sell all across Europe.. ANY tariffs or logistical delays will have a direct impact.


Plus all of my whole industry anticipates a reduction in spend. Conclusion next year will be harder than this year, yet profits must be maintained. Result company wide austerity. :-(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 02:41:23 PM
I'm by no means being flippant. I fear the worst. If the world is voting against rather than for things all the time, we're in for a very bad time.


My sincere sympathies with you Bretty. Hopefully the government will do a good deal which will limit the damage.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Oldgit on 03 November 2018, 02:54:18 PM
Can't wait to be out of the EU, I did not vote for another government in Brussels, I voted for free trade only in1974
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 03 November 2018, 03:02:55 PM
I appreciate the sympathies, but I'll be ok..  Alot of people won't be though.


I don't know many business looking forward to brexit. Maybe betting shops, loan sharks and alcohol retailers?! :-P
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 03:24:42 PM


I don't know many business looking forward to brexit. Maybe betting shops, loan sharks and alcohol retailers?! :-P


You've just given me an idea of what I might be able to do for work!  :thumbup   :lol


Alas, 3 years unemployed thus far here, getting in to debt with my bank now, and health problems making it difficult to know what I could do  :(  Brexit is the least of my worries!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 03:30:11 PM
yet profits must be maintained. Result company wide austerity. :-(


Something about that quote ^ bothers me  :\  If profits are maintained, someone in the company isn't being hit by the austerity, surely? At your expense by the sound of it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 03 November 2018, 03:35:36 PM
Don't want the village I live in twinned with foreigners, because we will have very little in 'Common' with them. lol! 
Now there is a thought will we as a nation remove all the twinned with signs and replace them with new ones? might cost the country a couple of quid.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 03:36:35 PM
If the world is voting against rather than for things all the time, we're in for a very bad time

They voted for DonaldTrump in America, so it's not all against. Well it was against Clinton I grant you :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 03:40:21 PM
I don't know many business looking forward to brexit. Maybe betting shops, loan sharks and alcohol retailers?! :-P
Or maybe the small businesses that can't cope with or afford the overwhelming amounts of business regulations that Brussels implements upon them?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 03:44:35 PM
If the world is voting against rather than for things all the time, we're in for a very bad time

They voted for DonaldTrump in America, so it's not all against. Well it was against Clinton I grant you :lol


Yes, it was a bit of a dumb thing to say really. If you're voting, presumably you have been given a choice of things to vote for. So if you're voting for one thing, you must be voting against another!
Those damn Remainers are all so negative, voting against Brexit!  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 03:50:57 PM
Quote
They voted [/size]for [/size]DonaldTrump in America, so it's not all against. Well it was against Clinton I grant you [/size]

Actually, Clinton won more votes than Trump. It was the peculiarities of their electoral college system that got Trump in. If they'd used the same system as our referendum, she'd be in  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 04:22:38 PM
Quote
They voted for DonaldTrump in America, so it's not all against. Well it was against Clinton I grant you

Actually, Clinton won more votes than Trump. It was the peculiarities of their electoral college system that got Trump in. If they'd used the same system as our referendum, she'd be in  :D



I'm sure there's a practical point to that argument. Damned if I can figure out what it is though  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 04:34:39 PM
Those damn Remainers are all so negative, voting against Brexit!  :lol
:lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 04:36:11 PM
Quote
They voted for DonaldTrump in America, so it's not all against. Well it was against Clinton I grant you

Actually, Clinton won more votes than Trump. It was the peculiarities of their electoral college system that got Trump in. If they'd used the same system as our referendum, she'd be in  :D

Thank goodness for the peculiarities of life! :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 04:42:01 PM
I'm by no means being flippant. I fear the worst.

Hoping for the worst if you don't get your Peoples Vote/Second Referendum and Brexit is enacted more like ;)
 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 04:58:46 PM
I think we should have another referendum to decide if we want another referendum about having another referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 03 November 2018, 05:40:25 PM
Quote
I'm sure there's a practical point to that argument. Damned if I can figure out what it is though 



It's a simple one. Despite the will of the people, shit happens  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Millietant on 03 November 2018, 09:29:18 PM
Not officially..

My company are a multi-national. I have seen the forecasted figures for next year (which take into account currency changes and economic contraction).

Also there is the consideration that my company manufacture all across Europe and sell all across Europe.. ANY tariffs or logistical delays will have a direct impact.

Plus all of my whole industry anticipates a reduction in spend. Conclusion next year will be harder than this year, yet profits must be maintained. Result company wide austerity. :-(


So, a multi national company that makes and sells all across Europe sees its whole industry predicting a reduction in spend and yet they only single out Brexit as the cause....more jumping on the bandwagon. I do feel sorry for you Brett, speaking as someone who was made redundant at 56 two years ago.


The only uncertainty about Brexit is that being peddled by the vocal minority (the constantly complaining Remain voters, as opposed to those Remain voters who have accepted the result of the real People's Vote that we had a while back) who are determined to undermine both the democratic wish of the majority of those who could actually get off their backsides and vote, and the success of our transition out of the EU. Having a united face in front of the EU would undoubtedly strengthen our chances of getting the best deal possible, everything else just strengthens our opponents negotiating position.


Those who didn't vote KNEW that this was to be their one and only chance to vote on Brexit. They CHOSE to abstain and I believe none of them felt forced NOT to vote.


So, what we have is the minority trying to undermine the democratically determined will of the people in a vote where their decision to partake placed upon them the responsibility to abide by and support the outcome, whether it was in their favour, or not.


The vocal minority crying out for a second vote are simply trying to undermine our basic democratic system, just because they wanted the ice cream and didn't get it.


Now can we get back to the original thread intention please and hopefully find some help for Bretty.


Oh crap .... too much JD.....I'm all confused about which thread I'm on now  :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 03 November 2018, 10:03:25 PM
Well said Millietant, and all in the right place except for the part about helping Bretty, who, nevertheless, I'm sure we all wish the best for.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 November 2018, 10:15:22 PM

Those who didn't vote KNEW that this was to be their one and only chance to vote on Brexit. They CHOSE to abstain and I believe none of them felt forced NOT to vote.


There's a Remainer that regularly writes into my local paper and he always includes the portion of the electorate that didn't bother to vote in his remain figures :lol . The theory being that they also didn't vote for Leave.


By the same token they also didn't vote for Remain did they.


The fact of the matter is they couldn't be bothered to get off their arses to vote either way, so by definition they're happy to let those of us that did decide for them :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 03 November 2018, 11:02:56 PM
Not officially..

My company are a multi-national. I have seen the forecasted figures for next year (which take into account currency changes and economic contraction).

Also there is the consideration that my company manufacture all across Europe and sell all across Europe.. ANY tariffs or logistical delays will have a direct impact.

Plus all of my whole industry anticipates a reduction in spend. Conclusion next year will be harder than this year, yet profits must be maintained. Result company wide austerity. :-(


So, a multi national company that makes and sells all across Europe sees its whole industry predicting a reduction in spend and yet they only single out Brexit as the cause....more jumping on the bandwagon. I do feel sorry for you Brett, speaking as someone who was made redundant at 56 two years ago.


The only uncertainty about Brexit is that being peddled by the vocal minority (the constantly complaining Remain voters, as opposed to those Remain voters who have accepted the result of the real People's Vote that we had a while back) who are determined to undermine both the democratic wish of the majority of those who could actually get off their backsides and vote, and the success of our transition out of the EU. Having a united face in front of the EU would undoubtedly strengthen our chances of getting the best deal possible, everything else just strengthens our opponents negotiating position.


Those who didn't vote KNEW that this was to be their one and only chance to vote on Brexit. They CHOSE to abstain and I believe none of them felt forced NOT to vote.


So, what we have is the minority trying to undermine the democratically determined will of the people in a vote where their decision to partake placed upon them the responsibility to abide by and support the outcome, whether it was in their favour, or not.


The vocal minority crying out for a second vote are simply trying to undermine our basic democratic system, just because they wanted the ice cream and didn't get it.


Now can we get back to the original thread intention please and hopefully find some help for Bretty.


Oh crap .... too much JD.....I'm all confused about which thread I'm on now  :lol :lol :lol
Despite the JD or helped by it-- either way brilliant, I am with you.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 12:37:04 AM
Quote
The only uncertainty about Brexit is that being peddled by the vocal minority
The only uncertainty about Brexit is that there is no certainty. Will somebody please tell me what they want  :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Slaninar on 04 November 2018, 07:03:18 AM
I think there's no need to worry about this. Propaganda will get the majority to vote in whichever way suits the big capital best - people are easily manipulated and media is a very powerful tool.

My impression is, in the long run, "ordinary/working class" will have less and less as years go by. Just gradually, so there are no riots.

Did the number of say school teacher monthly pays to buy a flat, or a car increase, or decrease from, say 1998, 2008?
What about the living costs - heating, bills, food - percentage of monthly pay to pay for it rises, or drops?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 08:15:02 AM
The only uncertainty about Brexit is that there is no certainty. Will somebody please tell me what they want  :'(
I'll have a go :D ....I don't want the unelected Junckers and the other unelected commisioners proposing the legislation that eventually ends up becoming law in this country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 08:58:28 AM
You want a don't want? Your Christmas list should be very useful  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 09:50:05 AM
 :lol . I'm only asking Santa for one present this year.....Brexit! :woot
OK, I want the UK to take back control of the process of proposing legislation which evenually becomes law from the unelected Junckers and the other unelected commisioners :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 04 November 2018, 10:20:27 AM
Don't talk about me. :-) I'm not after sympathy, just giving you my perspective on Brexit.


I was working for a big (french) multinational corporation when the original brexit vote happened. The 20% devaluation of the pound scrubbed £200mil off the value of the UK business overnight  :eek . In my team alone, they put 70 jobs at risk and reduced the team to 35, with further cuts to follow! I left.


Now I'm at a big american corporation. They look at the UK as their European headquarters, all senior management speak English and the company is the hub for free trade into and around Europe. Now Brexit means Britain is no longer considered a hub of Europe, they will be stripping the company with the intention of devaluing and selling it.
Hence the redundancies.


Anyway, that's just my personal perspective, which just happens to be negative. Perhaps some people can tell us how they have been positively affected and cheer us all (well me) up.  :b :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 10:29:20 AM
Don't talk about me. :-) I'm not after sympathy, just giving you my perspective on Brexit.


I was working for a big (french) multinational corporation when the original brexit vote happened. The 20% devaluation of the pound scrubbed £200mil off the value of the UK business overnight  :eek . [size=78%] In my team alone, they put 70 jobs at risk and reduced the team to 35, with further cuts to follow! I left.[/size]


Now I'm at a big american corporation. They look at the UK as their European headquarters, all senior management speak English and the company is the hub for free trade into and around Europe. Now Brexit means Britain is no longer considered a hub of Europe, they will be stripping the company with the intention of devaluing and selling it.
Hence the redundancies.


Anyway, that's just my personal perspective, which just happens to be negative. Perhaps some people can tell us how they have been positively affected and cheer us all (well me) up.  :b :D

Just out of interest, what's your job title/proffesion?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Bretty on 04 November 2018, 10:47:51 AM
Technical Sales.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 11:05:18 AM
 Some employers have a much better working relationship with unions than others.
I think I'm right in saying, one of the other posters can confirm this I expect, that the company have to recognise the union but they're not obliged to negotiate with them. Obviously that would make resolving an issue more problematic.

I'm a long standing union member and they have an office within the premises and an excellent working relationship with the employer.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 11:27:28 AM
Compulsory recognition depends upon the proportion of the workforce that joins or wants to join
 
https://www.gov.uk/trade-union-recognition-employers/statutory-recognition (https://www.gov.uk/trade-union-recognition-employers/statutory-recognition)


As said, no employer has to negotiate at any time, and there are separate laws about official industrial action.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 11:36:36 AM
Yes it's not straightforward is it. I didn't realise it was quite as complicated as that though :eek .
I think in general unions have/had a much stonger prescence in the manual/factory industrys where the workforce has had to fight so much harder to gain decent employment conditions and wages etc...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 11:43:54 AM
Perhaps some people can tell us how they have been positively affected and cheer us all (well me) up.  :b :D


It hasn't happened yet.
It's a big change, the effects likely won't be properly assessable for a quite a while, maybe years. I suspect we will lose out with some things, gain with others. But the point is, we will stand or fall on our own merits. And if we fall, it will likely be no more than we deserve, judging by the comments of many Remainers, who I suspect will behave like lemmings and off themselves over the cliff edge, rather than having any interest in striving to make their country work. I can't quite understand why VNA thinks that - what I've highlighted in bold - is ok for Scotland, but not for the UK as a whole.


But then, the Scottish Nationalists say they want to make their own decisions, but then turn about 180degrees and say they want to be in the EU, where they won't get to do that anyway. Besides which, nationalism is generally a dirty word lately isn't it? As far as most of the media is concerned anyway, and the Scots Nats. have adopted it as their mantra. A very confused bunch if you ask me, but hey-ho.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 12:01:41 PM
You are right, some of the consequences won't be realised for years, but some are already. As Bretty has said, the devaluation of the £ is already leading to job losses.


And yes we will stand or fall on our own merits. Isn't that exactly what the SNP in Scotland wants to do?


Incidentally we are already arranging to transfer EU laws into UK legislation. So perhaps we won't be quite so independent after all  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 12:03:26 PM
The only uncertainty about Brexit is that there is no certainty. Will somebody please tell me what they want  :'(


The only reason you don't understand what Brexiteers want is because you ask the questions but are not prepared to listen to the answers. Plenty have virtually spelled it out for you in this very thread. You are not interested in what Brexiteers want, only in what you perceive you can get for yourself within the EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 12:08:49 PM
You are right, some of the consequences won't be realised for years, but some are already. As Bretty has said, the devaluation of the £ is already leading to job losses.


And for you, the short term is more important than the long term. Fair enough.


Quote
And yes we will stand or fall on our own merits. Isn't that exactly what the SNP in Scotland wants to do?


And now you have proved that you don't listen to anyone who doesn't share your view. Did I not just talk about the dilemma Scottish Nationalists will find themselves in because they want to remain in the EU? And it is well to remember that not all Scots support the SNP, nor are all Scots Remainers.


Quote
Incidentally we are already arranging to transfer EU laws into UK legislation. So perhaps we won't be quite so independent after all  :)


Transitional, and will retain those that continue to work in our interests. If not, then I suspect there will be trouble.


Good grief, is it that you are that hard of understanding? At least I understand why Remainers wish to stay in the EU. I just don't agree with them on a number of things (I agree on others).
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 12:33:08 PM
Sublime ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 12:40:56 PM
Did anyone else see Andrew Marr interviewing Arron Banks on his BBC1 show this morning?.
Crickey Marr worked himself up into a tizzy!. I just wanted to tell him to calm down and relax a bit like Banks.
I don't think it can do anyone any good to get that worked up over it all :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 12:55:35 PM
Did anyone else see Andrew Marr interviewing Arron Banks on his BBC1 show this morning?.
Crickey Marr worked himself up into a tizzy!. I just wanted to tell him to calm down and relax a bit like Banks.
I don't think it can do anyone any good to get that worked up over it all :eek


I didn't see it, but Marr used to have my respect as a journalist (and his recent series on The History of the World was excellent). If he is going that way too - and just after we got rid of that idiot Evan Davies from Newsnight, leaving only Emily Meritless to go - then I despair of the BBC. Although many did years ago.
Still, they still have Mark Urban, ex-Army tank officer, who is adopting more responsibility for presenting lately. Perhaps with his background, he'll be a bit more non-partisan, less "OMG!!!!!!" emotional (and he has written some good books on military history and presented a good documentary on tank warfare in WW2 too).
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 01:18:42 PM
Quote
The only reason you don't understand what Brexiteers want is because you ask the questions but are not prepared to listen to the answers. Plenty have virtually spelled it out for you in this very thread. You are not interested in what Brexiteers want, only in what you perceive you can get for yourself within
That's crap. At the beginning I asked two straightforward questions. 1. What should our future trading relationship be with the EU. 2. What should be done about the Irish Border. Nobody has answered either of those. Perhaps it's because the answers are embarrassing. All Brexiteers do is say 'We won,  on repeat until red in the face'
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 01:25:09 PM
I think there's no need to worry about this. Propaganda will get the majority to vote in whichever way suits the big capital best - people are easily manipulated and media is a very powerful tool.


Call me a cynic (YOU'RE A CYNIC!  :lol ), but what I see happening right now, is that businessmen, and especially the big corporations are fighting tooth and nail against Brexit because it does not seem in their interests. But then, they do not think about the interests of anyone but themselves and their shareholders, as Bretty is finding out. They have very carefully been manipulating their workforce, threatening them with redundancy if you don't back their side. But will your wages rise significantly if you back them? No, they won't. But the top fat cats will get richer still off your backs, that much you can guarantee. If you only care about those who get rich off the backs of everyone else, continue to campaign for the annulification of the referendum result. But if you care about normal, everyday people, back Brexit!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 01:26:15 PM
Quote
The only reason you don't understand what Brexiteers want is because you ask the questions but are not prepared to listen to the answers. Plenty have virtually spelled it out for you in this very thread. You are not interested in what Brexiteers want, only in what you perceive you can get for yourself within
That's crap. At the beginning I asked two straightforward questions. 1. What should our future trading relationship be with the EU. 2. What should be done about the Irish Border. Nobody has answered either of those. Perhaps it's because the answers are embarrassing. All Brexiteers do is say 'We won,  on repeat until red in the face'


Simple. Trading should carry on as normal.
N.I. should be handed over to the EU, lock, stock, and Armalite (oops, bit too cynical there!  :lol ) barrel.


HTH.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 02:14:34 PM
Did anyone else see Andrew Marr interviewing Arron Banks on his BBC1 show this morning?.
Crickey Marr worked himself up into a tizzy!. I just wanted to tell him to calm down and relax a bit like Banks.
I don't think it can do anyone any good to get that worked up over it all :eek


I didn't see it, but Marr used to have my respect as a journalist (and his recent series on The History of the World was excellent). If he is going that way too - and just after we got rid of that idiot Evan Davies from Newsnight, leaving only Emily Meritless to go - then I despair of the BBC. Although many did years ago.
Still, they still have Mark Urban, ex-Army tank officer, who is adopting more responsibility for presenting lately. Perhaps with his background, he'll be a bit more non-partisan, less "OMG!!!!!!" emotional (and he has written some good books on military history and presented a good documentary on tank warfare in WW2 too).

I think every presenter of BBC news/current affairs/debate programmes should be impartial and all pannelists should be given equal time.
I've heard a rumour that Victoria Derbyshire is being mooted as the replacement host when David Dimbleby retires from 'Question Time' soon. That'l be the last time I tune into that show if there's any truth in that rumour :lol
I find some of the 'topical comedy show's' unwatchable/listenable now. 'Have I Got News For You' on BBC1 and 'The News Quiz' on Radio4 are a couple of good examples. The mickey taking should be split 50/50 between left and right. Goodness knows what the figure for The News Quiz is. Must be something like 90/10!. You really don't need me to tell you which way that's split do you? :lol . It makes them boring IMHO :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 02:26:13 PM
You should try watching Ch4 news if you like a good comedy. Jon "High'n'Mighty' Snow is hilarious!
My view is simple. If you are going to invite a guest on to speak, then let them speak. If you just want to shout them down, don't be so rude and arrogant as to invite them on in the first place. And if you want to be impartial, invite on those you may not agree with as well as those you do, however disreputable they may be, if they are making the news in a significant way.
If you want to air a BBC (or whoever) opinions program, then it should be called just that, not thinly disguised as being an impartial (what a hoot!) news program.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 02:27:44 PM
Quote
Simple. Trading should carry on as normal.N.I. should be handed over to the EU, lock, stock, and Armalite (oops, bit too cynical there!   ) barrel.



Thank you...  :) Two small problemettes.
1. 'As normal' means tariff free and control free. We would have to join a Customs Union with the EU, and for that we would have to pay and take rules from them. It's called EFTA. Some Brexiteers don't like that
2. It all kicks off again, including bombing the UK (possibly by both sides)
Glad we've got that sorted....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 02:33:48 PM
I've heard that Arron Banks' next interview is going to be broadcast on Wormwood Scrubs radio  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 02:34:24 PM
You should try watching Ch4 news if you like a good comedy. Jon "High'n'Mighty' Snow is hilarious!
My view is simple. If you are going to invite a guest on to speak, then let them speak. If you just want to shout them down, don't be so rude and arrogant as to invite them on in the first place. And if you want to be impartial, invite on those you may not agree with as well as those you do, however disreputable they may be, if they are making the news in a significant way.
If you want to air a BBC (or whoever) opinions program, then it should be called just that, not thinly disguised as being an impartial (what a hoot!) news program.
I agree, but with a small caveat...sometimes the interviewer has no choice but to interupt because, and this applies almost exclusively to politicians, often the person being interviewed will keep deliberately drifting off-topic in order to avoid answering the actual question.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 02:37:12 PM
I've heard that Arron Banks' next interview is going to be broadcast on Wormwood Scrubs radio  :lol

Who told you that?. Andrew Marr? :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 02:43:49 PM
Quote
Simple. Trading should carry on as normal.N.I. should be handed over to the EU, lock, stock, and Armalite (oops, bit too cynical there!   ) barrel.



Thank you...  :) Two small problemettes.
1. 'As normal' means tariff free and control free. We would have to join a Customs Union with the EU, and for that we would have to pay and take rules from them. It's called EFTA. Some Brexiteers don't like that

Why? In practical terms?

Quote
2. It all kicks off again, including bombing the UK (possibly by both sides)
Glad we've got that sorted....

You are saying we should allow ourselves to be held to ransom by such people who would resort to terrorism.
Plenty would say it never ended. Violent sectarianism is still a fact there, and it has been reported it is on the rise again anyway.
The people of N.I. voted to remain in the EU. Let them, I say. Then the EU can be the ones who deal with all that sectarian nonsense. Not to mention N.I. is a net drain on the UK economy. Nothing-but-nothing-but win!  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 02:49:17 PM

Quote
Who told you that?. Andrew Marr?



No, Crapper of the Yard  :) 


https://news.sky.com/story/national-crime-agency-launches-investigation-into-arron-banks-11541786

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 02:58:41 PM
Quote
Why? In practical terms?


Because it takes two to agree a deal, and the EU will insist on conditions. They already do for Norway and Switzerland.


Quote
[/size]You are saying we should allow ourselves to be held to ransom by such people who would resort to terrorism.Plenty would say it never ended. Violent sectarianism is still a fact there, and it has been reported it is on the rise again anyway.
The people of N.I. voted to remain in the EU. Let them, I say. Then the EU can be the ones who deal with all that sectarian nonsense. Not to mention N.I. is a net drain on the UK economy. Nothing-but-nothing-but win! 
[/font]

You and I are both old enough to remember what it was like before the Good Friday Agreement. Yes it still happens but it's nowhere near as bad now. If NI stays in the EU then the border is between NI and GB and the loyalists kick off. If it's between NI and Eire, then the Republicans kick off. A no win situation.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 03:25:28 PM
Quote
Why? In practical terms?


Because it takes two to agree a deal, and the EU will insist on conditions. They already do for Norway and Switzerland.


And there you have immediately kowtowed to them.
I asked for an explanation in practical terms, and got one in political terms. Once again showing that politics merely gets in the way of trade.
We must have the courage of our convictions and insist on our own conditions. Or it's No Deal.
The point is to negotiate a deal, not have one dictated. That is the very reason Brexiteers want out of that non-democratic shambles.


Quote

You and I are both old enough to remember what it was like before the Good Friday Agreement. Yes it still happens but it's nowhere near as bad now. If NI stays in the EU then the border is between NI and GB and the loyalists kick off. If it's between NI and Eire, then the Republicans kick off. A no win situation.



Whichever way this goes, N.I. will kick off again. Sooner or later, it would even if the referendum had never happened. Sad, but alas, that is the mentality we are dealing with, as is evidenced with the current resurgence of sectarianist views within those communities. We must surgically remove the cancer, and the EU have kindly offered to do it for us.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 03:36:16 PM

Quote
Who told you that?. Andrew Marr?



No, Crapper of the Yard  :) 


https://news.sky.com/story/national-crime-agency-launches-investigation-into-arron-banks-11541786 (https://news.sky.com/story/national-crime-agency-launches-investigation-into-arron-banks-11541786)



I'm not suggesting you think this, but there's a common misconception that they were the official leave campaign party. They weren't of course. That was the Johnson/Gove fronted 'Vote Leave'.
 We'll just have to wait and see what the outcome of the NCA investigation into Arron Banks is. I wouldn't like to make a prediction. Just don't know.

But I trust that if he's exonerated then the Reamainers are going to accept that result :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 04 November 2018, 03:55:57 PM
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 04:13:49 PM
Quote
And there you have immediately kowtowed to them. [/size]I asked for an explanation in practical terms, and got one in political terms. Once again showing that politics merely gets in the way of trade.We must have the courage of our convictions and insist on our own conditions. Or it's No Deal.The point is to negotiate a deal, not have one dictated. That is the very reason Brexiteers want out of that non-democratic shambles.

I completely agree, but politics was always going to get in the way. The EU has its own problems and giving the UK exactly what it demands was never going to happen. 'Negotiate' means to the satisfaction of both sides. If both sides want something completely different, then we have No Deal. A brave move with lots of negative consequences.


As to the Irish issue, if NI remains in the EU, Scotland will want to as well. They both had similar Remain majorities.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 04:19:17 PM
Quote
But I trust that if he's exonerated then the Reamainers are going to accept that result

Of course  :lol I know very well Leave EU wasn't the official Leave campaign, but they were subject to the same Electoral Commission rules as the other campaigns. And it looks very much like they cheated.


I must admit, I would like to see that smug git put away. Best he avoids the showers. There's a big Greek prisoner that would like to have a few words with him :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 04:22:41 PM
Quote
And there you have immediately kowtowed to them. I asked for an explanation in practical terms, and got one in political terms. Once again showing that politics merely gets in the way of trade.We must have the courage of our convictions and insist on our own conditions. Or it's No Deal.The point is to negotiate a deal, not have one dictated. That is the very reason Brexiteers want out of that non-democratic shambles.

I completely agree, but politics was always going to get in the way.


Then it is time for a new kind of politics. One that doesn't exist for its own sake. We in the UK are not the only ones thinking that. Unfortunately, in the US, they felt Trump was the only alternative, and here, we felt Brexit was the only alternative - in the face of the intransigence of our consecutive political classes.


Quote
The EU has its own problems and giving the UK exactly what it demands was never going to happen. 'Negotiate' means to the satisfaction of both sides. If both sides want something completely different, then we have No Deal. A brave move with lots of negative consequences.


But the EU is not negotiating. It is trying to dictate.


Quote
As to the Irish issue, if NI remains in the EU, Scotland will want to as well. They both had similar Remain majorities.


That's what the SNP wants anyway. Is Scotland a net contributor to the UK economy?


BTW, what the foc is going on with the font size around here? Grrrr, bloody Brexit!  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 04:32:49 PM
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   :lol


Good, innit  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 04:56:11 PM
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   :lol


Good, innit  :lol
:lol He won't post on the subject now it's been syphoned off into the custom built thread. He's already tried to shift it back into 'Today's what gets my goat', but no-one would fall for it.
I like it in here. It's a good laugh....most of the time :wall :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 04 November 2018, 05:40:51 PM
I here's me being nice putting a thread up for poor old VNA now he can't get a word in edge ways on his own thread. Still I'm enjoying reading the many and varied observations on Brexit from both sides of the argument. I'm waiting to see if May is a Chamberlin or a Churchill are we going to appease Europe or fight. As for the troubles returning to NI I remember them well, but as for us dealing with them again not sure the squaddies would want to do that and then face persecution (and yes I do mean persecution not prosecution) 40/50 years later when the terrorists are given a get out of jail free card.         
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 05:53:09 PM
As for the troubles returning to NI I remember them well, but as for us dealing with them again not sure the squaddies would want to do that and then face persecution (and yes I do mean persecution not prosecution) 40/50 years later when the terrorists are given a get out of jail free card.       


That's my point Steve: hand it over to the EU, where the majority of the N.I. population wants to be, and wash our hands of the whole sorry mess. Then it would be the EU's responsibility to contain the inevitable violence, and good luck to them frankly. Maybe they can do a better job than we did.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 04 November 2018, 06:04:28 PM
Not many remembering all the redundancies that occured after we joined the EU then! Hundreds of thousnads, across many industries, as companies moved thier business to Europe and we were forced to privatise our state owned enterprises, with only the NHS surviving the cherry picking
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 04 November 2018, 07:19:21 PM
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   :lol


Good, innit  :lol
:lol He won't post on the subject now it's been syphoned off into the custom built thread. He's already tried to shift it back into 'Today's what gets my goat', but no-one would fall for it.
I like it in here. It's a good laugh....most of the time :wall :lol


I could not agree more, in fact it has been very informative reading theses posts and I feel as if I have gained some real insight and understanding, so please try to ignor the piss taking, I just can’t help it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 07:49:35 PM
Quote
and we were forced to privatise our state owned enterprises, with only the NHS surviving the cherry picking
Huh?  :rolleyes I think you will find France and Germany have hung on to most of their state owned enterprises. In fact they are running ours. I think you are mistaking the EU for the Tories who privatised them (telecoms, energy, water, trains - shall I go on?)


As to NI, yes hand it over to the EU, but the bombs will go off here.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 07:51:45 PM
Quote
in fact it has been very informative reading theses posts and I feel as if I have gained some real insight and understanding,
Thank you for the compliment  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 08:04:53 PM


As to NI, yes hand it over to the EU, but the bombs will go off here.


You mean from the Unionists? Well, we will just have to do our best to prevent that, as we do with Islamic extremists in our midst. Plus, with N.I. in EU hands, we can then bring diplomatic (and if required, other kinds of) pressure to bear on the EU to control their unruly, home-grown terrorists.


Also, if the Unionists started to carry out terrorist acts in the UK, what would they hope to achieve? Readmission to the Union? Would they really be so daft as to think they could achieve that by terrorism?
And, if you think that would be the likely scenario, do you really actually want N.I. as a UK responsibility? Knowing that this is why you keep them? Foc that, ungrateful bastards.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 08:11:22 PM
Terrorists are daft by definition. We will have 'betrayed them'.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 08:11:43 PM
I think you are mistaking the EU for the Tories who privatised them (telecoms, energy, water, trains - shall I go on?)
None of the big essential industrys/services should ever have been de-nationalised. I've never agreed with that Conservative Party policy.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 08:15:36 PM
Quote
in fact it has been very informative reading theses posts and I feel as if I have gained some real insight and understanding,
Thank you for the compliment  :lol
I suspect that's a continuation of the piss taking ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 08:44:12 PM
Terrorists are daft by definition. We will have 'betrayed them'.


But if we followed your logic, the terrorists would win. We would simply capitulate to their demands. Personally, I'm a firm believer in not giving in to terrorism, no matter what. There are other things I would not give into either. Like the dictates of the EU.
And here's me with the dodgy back, yet it's the Remainers who are spineless  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 08:45:41 PM
Quote
I suspect that's a continuation of the piss taking [/size]

Yes but........ I like informed debate. This country is divided down the middle like never before. Both left and right are taking both sides of the Brexit choice. As has been said here, people are fed up with their lot and the establishment that enforces it. That's worldwide. Like the industrial revolution, automation is now a significant shift. I for one, cannot understand why we are all still working a 5 day week.
The times they are a'changing.....  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 08:49:48 PM
Quote
But if we followed your logic, the terrorists would win. We would simply capitulate to their demands.
Wasps will leave you alone. What you don't do is prod their nest with a stick  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 08:52:52 PM
Quote
I suspect that's a continuation of the piss taking

Yes but........ I like informed debate. This country is divided down the middle like never before. Both left and right are taking both sides of the Brexit choice. As has been said here, people are fed up with their lot and the establishment that enforces it. That's worldwide. Like the industrial revolution, automation is now a significant shift. I for one, cannot understand why we are all still working a 5 day week.
The times they are a'changing.....  :)



It's interesting to note there has been some (admittedly very limited) discussion about minimum 'wages' for those not in work in the scenario of automation replacing more and more people in the work place. If the trend continues, it will be time to leave behind the stigma of unemployment, and actually embrace it - isn't it, as you suggest, the whole point of automation?
Although, you ask why we are still working a 5 day week - I'm just wishing I could  :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 04 November 2018, 08:54:27 PM
Quote
But if we followed your logic, the terrorists would win. We would simply capitulate to their demands.
Wasps will leave you alone. What you don't do is prod their nest with a stick  :lol


Nope. Bees will leave you alone. Wasps are vindictive little bastards that will sting you without reason  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 08:59:23 PM
Quote
- isn't it, as you suggest, the whole point of automation?
Known as the 'Jetsons Scenario' (if you remember them). We were promised that automation would be so far developed, that life would be all leisure, and we wouldn't have to work at all. We're still waiting.  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 10:27:20 PM

Quote
I suspect that's a continuation of the piss taking

Yes but........ I like informed debate.



I was referring to the tommyardin post not your reply to it ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 November 2018, 10:59:43 PM
Quote
I was referring to the tommyardin post not your reply to it [/size]

Sorry, is that again you piss taking?  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 November 2018, 11:31:35 PM
Quote
I was referring to the tommyardin post not your reply to it

Sorry, is that again you piss taking?  ;)

NO! :wall :lol
I could not agree more, in fact it has been very informative reading theses posts and I feel as if I have gained some real insight and understanding, so please try to ignor the piss taking, I just can’t help it.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 November 2018, 08:53:43 AM

Quote
But I trust that if he's exonerated then the Reamainers are going to accept that result

Of course  :lol I know very well Leave EU wasn't the official Leave campaign, but they were subject to the same Electoral Commission rules as the other campaigns. And it looks very much like they cheated.


I must admit, I would like to see that smug git put away. Best he avoids the showers. There's a big Greek prisoner that would like to have a few words with him :rollin



Blimey you make Judge Jeffries and Matthew Hopkins appear moderate and restrained :lol

You'd have him strapped in the ducking stool and dipped in and out of the river more times than a ducks beak before the NCA had even knocked on the door :lol


Until they've completed their investigations we simply cannot know either way. Like I say, I'd make no predictions whatsoever, but I'll accept their judgment however it turns out.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 05 November 2018, 11:33:19 AM
If found guilty, apply the appropriate punishment. Then let's get on with Brexit. We already know both sides of the campaign were disingenuous. It's no use feigning outrage about it now.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 05 November 2018, 11:58:27 AM
Ah, but only one side (allegedly) actually broke the law :stop
Anyway, he's now a Remainer :)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040630/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Arron-Banks-deal-latest-2016-referendum-vote-Theresa-May (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040630/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Arron-Banks-deal-latest-2016-referendum-vote-Theresa-May)
Re-run anybody?  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 05 November 2018, 01:13:57 PM
Re-run anybody?  :lol


Let's face it, that's all this is about. No one really cares about stupid Aaron Banks.
Dream on!


Besides which, as I have already suggested, he's not on my side, and i'm not on his. He cares about himself, he's wealthy and I'm sure will be just fine in or out of the EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 November 2018, 09:04:56 PM
Re-run anybody?  :lol

I think I may have some good news for you. I'm not sure where I was or what I was doing when it happpened, but I reckon I've somehow missed a second referendum :eek .
Just caught the end of 'Brexit: What the Nation Really Thinks' on channel 4 and they were showing some Leave/Remain results and declaring a Remain victory and asking the panel what they're next move will be now, accompanied by victorious whooping and hollering from the audience. The presenter looked as pleased as punch and could barely contain his joy.

Looks like we're back in after all :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 05 November 2018, 09:15:34 PM
Yeah, I kind of half watched that.
People on both sides made some good points. But much was also missed, and some made as clear as mud.


For instance, "do you think Britain will be better or worse off?"
Well, do you mean in the long or short term? Short term, probably a bit worse off. And that's all most people are thinking about. That's not surprising, because they can't accurately predict even the shortest term it seems.
Long term, depends on what sort of governments we have, what happens in the rest of the world...as much potential as anyone else to be better off.
BUT...that's not the point, is it? The point is, we do want to make our own laws, we do want to decide for ourselves who comes in to the country, we do want to cut our own trade deals around the world.


What this just reinforced is that Remain is about business. It is not about people. If you think business is all there is to the world, sure, campaign to remain. But remember that the tendency is for business to benefit fewer and fewer people. It has had long enough, more than long enough, to prove otherwise, if it were going to do so.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 05 November 2018, 09:59:21 PM
Quote
Looks like we're back in after all

You're right I did miss it. I also missed the Strickly Come Dancing result, which probably has about as much legitimacy  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 09 November 2018, 08:33:05 PM

I saw a thing today about a 16 year old giving a speech about 16 year olds getting the right to vote. I think thats ridiculous because they havnt got a clue and don't pay taxes etc etc. But then I would, I'm an old man.
So considering its been my country for nearly sixty years am I right to think like that? I'm starting to think not, in truth. Its gonna be their country for a lot longer than i'll be alive. Ive had my time, but now im in a minority.
And this is what troubles me about Brexit.
I voted to leave and i'll always want that no matter what the consequences. I hated the way the EU treated us so dismissively before the referendum, and then how much further they have taken it since. I hated the way politicians like blair and Cameron simply disregarded that huge majority of us that just wanted them to listen, instead of dictate what we should think and feel, and then brand us as racist, xenophobic fruitcakes for not toeing their company line and agenda, having concerns they considered beneath them to even think about let alone allow discussion.
I freely admit, I want a Britain that is European, just as it always was a long long time before the common market but that still has its own sovereign identity, makes its own laws, and sets out is own boundaries. A Britain that doesn't kneel down and bow submissively before some jumped up power crazed little eurocrat and his ever increasing demands.
But.
A lot of the young seem to want that. Just as a lot of them want that terrorist loving rascally old racist Corbyn running the country. So who am I to want to stop them? it'll be their generation that reaps the whirlwind.
So now, im pretty blasé about all of it. How can you be any different? even if Brexit goes ahead, it wont be the Brexit that 52% of the country voted for. Nobody will win now, no matter what. Nobody will get what they want. Both sides will lose, because the government and those around them, and us as a nation, didn't rise to meet the challenge. Those days are gone. We are a different breed now. I sincerely believe the young don't want to lead, they just want to follow. Thats their choice, its not fr meto decry it.There was a survey the other day that said that four out of ten young people wouldnt fight for their country now.( Im guessing a lot of that is the lefts belief that it isn't our country at all, its anybodies who wants to live here.)
So when retired officers talk about there worries about us having insufficient boats planes tanks soldiers etc in the military, does it matter any more, given that as a nation it would appear we will never stand up and fight again.
Im not having a pop at the left, im really not. They are just as entitled to their opinions as I am mine.
And im not saying id ever do anything other than stand by the decision I made to vote leave.
but what I am saying, is that if thats what the young want, given that its them that will be here after im gone, perhaps thats what they should have.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 09 November 2018, 08:40:09 PM
ps VNA if you do that thing where you pick out every single sentence from that post and then argue about it, I will personally let down the tyres of every skoda yeti oop north to make sure I get yours.. ;) ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 09 November 2018, 08:45:07 PM
Tbh, I think Brexit is the least of the worries for the coming generations.
Thank foc we don't live forever!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 09 November 2018, 08:45:36 PM
amen to that mate...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 09 November 2018, 08:48:18 PM
I've kept out of this so far. 
Just to prove a point. 

Quote
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

So I totally agree with Tommy :lol

And I was gonna continue to keep out of it, and anyway the title of the thread pisses me off.

But;

Quote
Just as a lot of them want that terrorist loving rascally old racist Corbyn running the country.

What the fuck?  Seriously! 


I dunno what you've been smoking Orgri.  But I can't think of many people who have campaigned against racism and for equality for as long as Mr Corbyn.  Mr Corbyn has spent his whole life campaigning against violence, injustice and war.

Corbyn is one of those rare folks of whom you all complain here does not exist.  He is genuine.  He is not in politics as you say to line his pockets or have a good time.

I mean fuck me, how can you call Mr Corbyn a racist.  Seriously Ogri - get a grip man! :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 09 November 2018, 08:53:17 PM
your absolutely right mate, What the hell was I thinking... ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 09 November 2018, 08:56:56 PM
Quote
your absolutely right mate, What the hell was I thinking... ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/wink.gif[/url])

Ah well.  Thank foc fae that.  Glad we got that sorted oot.   VNA can go back tae sleep again.   :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 November 2018, 01:18:11 AM
Terrorist loving Corbyn? What about that terrorist loving May? Yes that's them - the DUP
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup (https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 November 2018, 08:56:26 AM

I saw a thing today about a 16 year old giving a speech about 16 year olds getting the right to vote. I think thats ridiculous because they havnt got a clue and don't pay taxes etc etc. But then I would, I'm an old man.

In the run up to and since the referendum I heard quite a number of them saying in the media that people over about 40 should be barred from voting.The theory being that the younger voters have got to live with the result for longer and that it's 'Our right to decide our future'


Nothing to do with the fact that older voters tend to vote Leave more and it would be a way of skewing the vote :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 November 2018, 02:41:59 PM
Where did you hear that? I've never heard it.
Anyway, what is a fact is that since the referendum over half a million Leave voters have since died (well that was a waste of their time wasn't it) and more than half a million Remainers have reached voting age.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html)
And from January it will be a clear win for Remain. Can't wait for the new referendum  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 10 November 2018, 02:43:29 PM
..its a brave new world... :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 10 November 2018, 02:50:14 PM
Where did you hear that? I've never heard it.
Anyway, what is a fact is that since the referendum over half a million Leave voters have since died (well that was a waste of their time wasn't it) and more than half a million Remainers have reached voting age.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html)
And from January it will be a clear win for Remain. Can't wait for the new referendum  :D


Unfortunately, the EU referendum isn't next January. Tough old life, eh?  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 10 November 2018, 02:53:30 PM

I think in the spirit of the centenary of the armistice we should all put down our rifles, meet in no mans land, swap chocolate, ( the smokers can swap fags)and have a friendly " kick about" :) :) :)










With Tony Blairs head... ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 November 2018, 04:34:52 PM
Quote
Unfortunately, the EU referendum isn't next January. Tough old life, eh? 

And we won't be leaving the EU in March...... unless May gets a majority in the Commons for her 'deal', which is looking more unlikely by the day  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 10 November 2018, 04:40:08 PM
Jeez, that was a short armistice!  :lol 


Tbh, I wouldn't want to leave on her terms. I think that's one thing more and more from both sides are in agreement with. So leaving with no deal looks ever more likely.


Thankfully, whatever the foc happens, it'll make little to no difference to me.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 November 2018, 05:43:54 PM
I think that would lead to PM resignation, vote of no confidence, General Election, and we're back to square one.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 10 November 2018, 05:57:50 PM
I think that would lead to PM resignation, vote of no confidence, General Election, and we're back to square one.


Daft, innit.


Thankfully, it still won't affect me much  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 November 2018, 11:08:20 PM
The whole idea was daft in the first place. Done to silence the Tory right and UKIP once and for all. Except it massively backfired. All about internal Tory party infighting.


And here we are. A split nation with nobody happy....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 10 November 2018, 11:19:45 PM
thats probably true of most European countries now mate, and of course the USA. Guess its just a natural progression of the human race, twats that we are.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 November 2018, 12:33:07 PM
Quote
The whole idea was daft in the first place. Done to silence the Tory right and UKIP once and for all. Except it massively backfired. All about internal Tory party infighting.


And here we are. A split nation with nobody happy....
Indeed.  Absolute utter selfishness
 It was to pull the significant extreme right wing of the party in line, and yes kill UKIP. Cameron and his buddies didn’t think for one minute what would happen if they lost the subsequent referendum.


Quote
Hundreds of thousands, across many industries, as companies moved thier business to Europe and we were forced to privatise our state-owned enterprises, with only the NHS surviving the cherry picking
This was one of the problems with the EU referendum.  We’d had some 37 odd years of right wing neo liberal governments.  Privatise everything, even schools and hospitals have been partially privatised through the PFI PPP debacles, social and care contracts privatised, our prisons privatised, social housing – everything privatised. The Tory dream of a flexible low wage economy.  Our terms and conditions slashed, pay the employee what you can get away with and maximise profit at every opportunity.  Over three decades of socialism for the rich.


None of it EU policy.  This was all done by the Tories with New Labour carrying on their work.


So no wonder people were and are pissed off.  We’ve been getting screwed for decades, even to the point we now have austerity and food banks for the hungry in nearly every major town across the country.


Given a ball to kick, well even people who had never ever voted before in their life came out registered to vote and kicked that ball hard.

 
Sadly we kicked the wrong ball.  The EU is not to blame for our ills, our own governments screwed us.


BREXIT is simply a continuation of Thatcherism, the extreme right of the Tory Party is getting it’s way.  They are going to finish the job she started, and you and I are going to pay the price.



 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 11 November 2018, 01:11:44 PM
I don't care. I'm with ogri. I want Brexit. Unfortunately for you, I got a vote too. Deal with it.  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 November 2018, 02:51:00 PM
Quote
I don't care. I'm with ogri. I want Brexit. Unfortunately for you, I got a vote too. Deal with it.  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/cheesy.gif[/url])

BREXIT job losses last week;
 Michelin tyres Dundee.  845 jobs to go.
Schaeffler Plymouth and Llanelli.  500 jobs to go.
Guess they will just have to deal with it too.





 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 11 November 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Sorry mate, I have my own problems far worse than just having no job. But I got a vote. I want Brexit. I might cope if we don't get Brexit, but it's not a given.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 November 2018, 09:10:28 AM

Corbyn is one of those rare folks of whom you all complain here does not exist.  He is genuine. 


That's true.


I had to do a double take to make sure, but he genuinely did wear a grey hoodie anorak with the hood hanging out and a red tie for the service of remembrance at The Cenotaph yesterday.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 November 2018, 09:34:47 AM
So? He's also the only one in the group who hasn't sold arms to the Saudis.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 November 2018, 09:53:48 AM

I'm agreeing with VNA. I'm not offering an opinion, merely making an observation.


The bit I don't understand is why he sings the National Anthem. Isn't he a republican?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 November 2018, 11:10:53 AM
He was miming. He was actually singing 'The Red Flag'  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 November 2018, 11:37:09 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 02:34:56 PM
I often see Remainers say that the Brexiteers don't know what it was they were voting for. So, to be clear:


1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.


My question is, is there anyone here who doesn't want those three things for the UK, aside, obviously, from VNA, whose only concern is Scotland, and then only those Scots who agree with him?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Slaninar on 12 November 2018, 04:44:28 PM
I often see Remainers say that the Brexiteers don't know what it was they were voting for. So, to be clear:


1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.


My question is, is there anyone here who doesn't want those three things for the UK, aside, obviously, from VNA, whose only concern is Scotland, and then only those Scots who agree with him?
During the 90s civil wars, my city of 200.000 got around as many refugees. Didn't like the change, even though those people speak the same language. However, the alternative was even worse  - letting them die.
Another example is a sysetms administrator in my country earns up to 1000 euros per month (that's considered a top pay). Without an EU passport, you can't apply for jobs in EU countries, UK, USA and Switzerland (especially) being very tricky. So the world is still a bit like the middle ages - depending on which family you're born into determines pretty much what you can "afford".
On the other hand, let 1.000.000 of my countrymen enter Switzerland and you no longer have Switzerland.
Hence, if you include ethics into making the decision, not just money, it's even harder to be objective and wise. It's all a mess, not black and white. Especially since I think the working class of all the world's countries is opressed by the big capital. Those who started the mess in the middle east are the real problem cause IMO, the real "enemy". People destroying rivers, forrests and other countries, killing people for profit...  So whatever UK chooses, I expect it to get harder and harder to get by on an "average" wage from year to year.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 November 2018, 05:41:54 PM
Quote
1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world

I'll get none of things, because I didn't vote for this government. People forget that the EU is also a democracy, just a larger one. In fact my views and needs are better represented by the EU than the current UK government.
What do Remainers want
1: Be part of a trading block that has the size and power to match the rest of the world
2. Freedom of movement and opportunity for UK nationals throughout Europe
3. Continued peace in Europe
and so much more.....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 06:21:44 PM

What do Remainers want
1: Be part of a trading block that has the size and power to match the rest of the world

My, that'll be a challenge! The rest of the world is a big place ;)



Quote
2. Freedom of movement and opportunity for UK nationals throughout Europe

I'd prefer to live in a country that can provide for its own.

Quote
3. Continued peace in Europe


If that can't be done outside of the EU, then it probably can't be done. At the very least, you'd have to erase all national interests. As long as there are any differences, there will be conflict. So, one language, one culture, one religion, one centre of rule etc etc. The rise of nationalist movements throughout Europe illustrates that these things are unlikely to materialise. Unless you want to try to enforce them on everyone? More likely to cause war imo.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 November 2018, 06:23:43 PM
Quote
1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.

Obviously to have an open free trade market across 28 countries you need to have common laws.  These laws are generally made by consensus.  I’m not aware of having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.  So what are the laws that you so strongly object to?


What we are talking about is free movement across the EU.  So what exactly is the issue?


We already have trade deals across the globe as members of the EU.  After BREXIT we will end up on WTO rules and will have no trade deals.  The EU is our most important single market, and what we have decided to do is make it more difficult to trade with the EU.  I have no idea why BREXITEERS think that the UK, which doesn’t have the clout of the EU, can negotiate better deals than the EU.  Also, other countries around the globe will prioritise the EU over us – and of course the EU will always get a better deal and get it first. 



 
Meanwhile where are we with BREXIT?  Basically, running out of time.  Though at least there is a new more realistic slogan is in town.  Any deal is better than no deal.  Though of course we are potentially about to tear up the best deal of all which is the one we have.


So with time fast running out……….. The government is looking increasingly unable to come to any agreed position.  The DUP will bring down the government if there is a border between the UK and Northern Ireland.  A border between NI and EIRE is not even worth thinking about.  The government won’t call a general election as they would expect to loose it, but they will point to the fixed term act as a means to clinging to power despite not being able to actually govern. 



With a government unable to come up with a deal.  And even if they could, a parliament that is unlikely to accept any deal, the only way out of this mess may be to return to the people.


BREXIT is a nightmare.



 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 07:11:47 PM
Quote
1. To be able to make our own laws without having undesirable/unsuitable ones thrust upon us.
2. To be able to control immigration in a way that suits us.
3. To be able to make our own trade deals around the world.

Obviously to have an open free trade market across 28 countries you need to have common TRADE laws.


FTFY.


Quote
the EU will get a better deal if/when all members finally get around to agreeing with each other, which can take years


FTFY


We were given a vote. The MAJORITY OF VOTERS chose Brexit. The politicians said they would implement the voters' will. In a democracy, that means the will of the MAJORITY.


I'm not against a further vote on the nature of the deal. But such a vote should not include the option of a rerun on the original question - in or out. We voted out. (Yes, yes, I know, Scotland didn't - so vote for Scottish Independence and stop messing about).
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 12 November 2018, 07:15:53 PM
Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EU

Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 November 2018, 07:45:01 PM
 
Quote
Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EU


You can’t have a common market without common rules.  It is not possible.  Simple.
As I have pointed out numerous times, the EU is 28 countries with one single market place.  What we had before was 28 sperate laws, 28 separate customs, 28 separate standards, and so on and so on.  I have no idea why we would not want to be part of that.

And whatever sort of BREXIT we get, though my money has always been on article 50 eventually being binned, we will have to continue to abide with EU rules if we wish to tarde with them.  But we will have no say or influence in those rules.

Quote
Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all. 
You had no right to live, work or retire there.  That’s what we have now.
 

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 November 2018, 07:54:37 PM
 A referendum that should have never taken place. We are a representative democracy. 
Nobody can agree what BREXIT is.  So, nobody can implement what nobody can agree on. 
As the only solution is to reject BREXIT.  Any referendum has to offer the opportunity to ditch BREXIT. 

The majority of people in the UK today clearly dont want BREXIT.
Lets get on with it, have a re-run.  Job done.  Back to normal.
Not to mention binning BREXIT means a stronger economy, a stronger pound, which means cheaper bikes.


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 07:58:31 PM
A referendum that should have never taken place.


In your opinion.


Quote
We are a representative democracy.


We won't be if Brexit is just ditched.



Quote
The majority of people in the UK today clearly dont want BREXIT.


Proof?

Lets not get on with a re-run.  The job was done.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 07:59:40 PM
You had no right to live, work or retire there.  That’s what we have now.


Scotland not good enough for you, eh?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 November 2018, 08:11:48 PM
Quote
Why the need for common laws to trade? We traded with Europe long before we joined the EU
Yes it was called EFTA, based around a common Customs Area. It still exists and Theresa May has ruled us out of it. So yes we can trade with Europe, and pay duties, lose trade, close factories, have Customs controls, queue up with the lorries on the M20, create an Irish border  etc etc etc
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 November 2018, 08:17:13 PM
Quote
Free movement across europe? Weve always had it before we joined the EU. I took several continental holidays in the late 60s, just had to show a passport, thats all.

You had no right to live, work or retire there.  That’s what we have now.
Neither did you have free health care, included roaming charges, bike insurance cover etc etc
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 08:35:17 PM
Tbh, with all we're told we get from EU membership, and them apparently not getting a thing from us, it's a wonder they didn't actually kick us out  :rollin


So they certainly won't let us back in  :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 12 November 2018, 08:42:03 PM

Quite apart from my reasons for voting to leave, I think the EU is falling apart anyhoo, whatever mess we have to sort out now it will be worse for those in it when it collapses.  :)

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 08:45:19 PM
But surely Germoney will pick up the tab for the gap we leave?


Oh no, I forgot...on balance they give us more than we give them. Why on earth would they have us back? This country has nothing to offer the world.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 November 2018, 10:33:49 PM
Quote
So they certainly won't let us back in  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rollin.gif[/url])

For them to let us back in, we would have to first leave.

   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 12 November 2018, 10:53:52 PM
4 months to go. If May's deal is voted against in Parliament, the clock is still ticking.


So why do you think the EU would want us to stay in? What's in it for them?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grahamm on 12 November 2018, 11:17:18 PM
I had to do a double take to make sure, but he genuinely did wear a grey hoodie anorak with the hood hanging out and a red tie for the service of remembrance at The Cenotaph yesterday.

Ah, yes.

Meanwhile, behind him was Tony Blair who should have been investigated at The Hague for war crimes (let alone him having the gall to wear a poppy after sending our troops into Iraq) and beside him was Theresa May who sells British weapons to the Saudis who then use them to bomb buses full of Yemeni children...

But, no, it's Corbyn who is the problem.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 November 2018, 11:55:45 PM
But if Jeremy Corbyn is a republican why would he join in with singing the national anthem?.

It's a perectly valid view to hold. Not everyone supports the monarchy.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 12:01:24 AM
Simply because it's the National Anthem. The words are immaterial.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 08:01:53 AM

Simply because it's the National Anthem. The words are immaterial.


I'd never thought of the words as being immaterial. When I sing God Save The Queen I actually mean it.


Corbyn didn't used to sing it though did he?. Even up until early on in his leadership he wasn't singing it at public events I don't think.


I wonder what changed since then :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 09:16:58 AM
Well as a very large proportion of the population don't believe in God, that's going to be difficult. Do you think the Germans literary meant 'Deutschland uber alles' when they sang it? O hang on a minute....  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 09:31:37 AM

I believe in god and just assumed all the other people singing it did too.


I still can't find an explanation as to why Jeremy Corbin sings The National Anthem now, but didn't previously :rolleyes


Anyone?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 12:08:13 PM
Personally, I couldn't care less. Anyway, what's that got to do with Brexit?  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 01:46:56 PM

Personally, I couldn't care less.


No I expect you don't  :rolleyes lol. I do though. I'll just have to do my own research ;) .


In his first post accompanying the thread title, the OP says it's for other politics as well.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 02:48:43 PM
I still don't care.....


Theresa doesn't know the right moves to 'Dancing Queen', but I don't care about that either  :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 05:10:35 PM
Theresa doesn't know the right moves to 'Dancing Queen'

I'm in agreement with you there. 100%. It's cringe inducing isn't it :o . Do they deliberately make an arse of it, sort of ironic like, or are they really actually trying?. I think the sad truth is that it's most likely the latter :'(

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 November 2018, 05:32:15 PM
 
Quote
But if Jeremy Corbyn is a republican why would he join in with singing the national anthem?.

Perhaps you haven’t noticed but Mr Corbyn is the leader of the opposition and therefore your next Prime Minister in waiting.


Quote
When I sing God Save The Queen I actually mean it.


For focs sake. :eek :eek :eek   



Never sung it, never will sing it.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 05:43:32 PM


Quote
When I sing God Save The Queen I actually mean it.


For focs sake. :eek :eek :eek   
:lol
....and I'm not refering to The Sex Pistols version either ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 13 November 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Whats all the fuss about I heard tonight on the telly that Theresa has it sorted   :rollin :rollin :rollin Is there a widow left open I thought I felt a draft?


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 07:17:41 PM
I still can't find an explanation as to why Jeremy Corbin sings The National Anthem now, but didn't previously :rolleyes

I'll just have to do my own research ;) .

The consensus of opinion is that the reason he never used to sing it was because he's a commited republican and that the explanation as to why he does sing it now is because he came under pressure from his own MP's and Cabinet collegues to do so. Particularly after the 75th anniversary of The Battle Of Britain service.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 November 2018, 08:29:35 PM
 
Quote
The consensus of opinion is that the reason he never used to sing it was because he's a commited republican and that the explanation as to why he does sing it now is because he came under pressure from his own MP's and Cabinet collegues to do so. Particularly after the 75th anniversary of The Battle Of Britain service.




 
I don’t know whether he sang that abominable awful anthem in the past or not, but as I have already pointed out, he is the leader of the opposition, that means he may become the Prime Minister one day.  He has to follow protocol.  Simple.


 
Meanwhile May has stuck a deal with Juncker.  No hard boder in Ireland as we will remain in the customs union.  Now we have to see if the government can agree on it and put it to the parliament.  This is where the real fun starts.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 08:45:02 PM
So...... if we agree terms with the EU that we stay in the Customs Union and most of the Single Market without a backstop (ie without an end date)........... then we might as well........... stay in the EU :)


At least I think that's what Arron Banks said.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 09:06:04 PM
Quote
The consensus of opinion is that the reason he never used to sing it was because he's a commited republican and that the explanation as to why he does sing it now is because he came under pressure from his own MP's and Cabinet collegues to do so. Particularly after the 75th anniversary of The Battle Of Britain service.




 
I don’t know whether he sang that abominable awful anthem in the past or not, but as I have already pointed out, he is the leader of the opposition, that means he may become the Prime Minister one day.  He has to follow protocol.  Simple.
HAS to?. Surely he has a choice?. The impression I get is that he was basically presurised into singing it.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 November 2018, 09:32:03 PM
Protocol - the official procedure or system of rules governing affairs of state or diplomatic occasions.

At offical functions when Mr Corbyn becomes Prime Minister he will be representing the country - not himself.

For example, whilst in the past he has always worn a white poppy on rememberance day, protocol dictates he must now wear a British Legion red poppy.  Once he retires as Prime Minister or as Leader of the Opposition I think you will find he will once again wear a white poppy, unless, that is, performing offical state functions as a former Prime Minister.
The country has to come before the individual when holding such high office.  Like I say simple.





Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 13 November 2018, 10:05:36 PM
Sorry VNA, I think he already promised himself to Diane Abbott  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 10:14:02 PM

Yes simple if you already know that that's the one of the rules of holding such a high office. I didn't, as indicated by my asking the question several times in previous posts.


When I was googling it earlier none of the results said that he had to conform, Ie sing The National Anthem.


Ta you've answered my question :thumbup

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 10:24:33 PM
I still don't care. At the end of the day, whether he sings it or not, what dances Theresa can or cannot do, is unimportant. It's just froth, only worthy of front page news for the tabloids.


In other news May has pulled off a fantastic result.
She's turned the country from a 2 way split - Leavers vs Remainers.......
Into a 3 way split - Hard Brexit vs Soft Brexit vs No Brexit


Unbelievable!  :'(

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 10:51:40 PM

I'm reluctant to say this and it's not with any great enthusiasm at all, but I'm prepared to say I've probably been won over by the arguments.


On the balance of things, as they stand at the moment, I think it would be best to stay in :eek


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 11:07:35 PM
I've just fainted.....  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 November 2018, 11:11:49 PM
Quote
On the balance of things, as they stand at the moment, I think it would be best to stay in ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url])



 :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 11:13:42 PM
Have you ever watched '12 Angry Men'?


We just need to get Hedgetrimmer and Ogri48 turned, and we're there  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 11:26:33 PM

 :lol
That's thrown you hasn't it ;) lol


Well that just shows you the power of persuasion.


And I think it's a good thing that people aren't so intransigent that they aren't prepared to be open to seeing the other side and be prepared to say so.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 November 2018, 11:34:55 PM
OK, in return I agree Corbyn is a communist spy and eats babies  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 November 2018, 11:48:29 PM
Where would we be if nobody ever had a change of mind.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 November 2018, 11:53:34 PM
Have you ever watched '12 Angry Men'?
Only the Tony Hancock version, which is a comedy classic by the way, but not the film. I get your gist though.

Do bear in mind I'm a very reluctant convert, not a fully paid up bells and whistles member of the Remainer gang  ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 November 2018, 08:24:07 AM

I can see this latest deal getting rejected.


I just don't think it's worth all the hassle any more.
Easier to just stay in and put up with it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 November 2018, 09:46:03 AM
'Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you........ Did she die in vain'  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 November 2018, 10:23:17 AM

'Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you........ Did she die in vain'  :D


 :lol It's a classic isn't it. They repeat the radio shows on 4 extra on Monday's at 7pm.


It was the life insurance policy one the other night where he buys the policy from Sid and it's a vet doing the medical (played by Kenneth Williams) :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 November 2018, 10:41:23 AM
Saw '12 Angry Men' in Edinburgh with Arthur Smith as Sid James. Also saw BBC recordings of 'The Lost Hancocks' in London. All classics.


My other favourite lines Radio Ham - 'I've got friends all over the world. None in this country, but all over the world'


And of course the immortal 'A pint, that's very nearly an armful. I'm not walking around with an empty arm for anyone'


The Lad Himself  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 November 2018, 11:53:55 AM

I was mightily impressed by The Lost Hancock's.


I first got into his shows as a kid long after his death.


One of my all time favourite moments is actually an error. It's the bit in The Two Murderers where Sid gets tongue tied and fluffs his lines trying to tell Hancock about 'El Fish & Chippo'.
The pair of them descend into genuine laughter over it. Priceless stuff.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 November 2018, 12:36:15 PM

So...... if we agree terms with the EU that we stay in the Customs Union and most of the Single Market without a backstop (ie without an end date)........... then we might as well........... stay in the EU :)


At least I think that's what Arron Banks said.


They've just been talking about this on the Jeremy Vine show Radio 2.


They reckon this deal is the final one, there will be no other. They say The EU know we won't ever go for a 'No Deal' Brexit.


So yes that's it. Stay In I say.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 14 November 2018, 04:06:24 PM


We just need to get Hedgetrimmer and Ogri48 turned, and we're there  ;)


Sigh.

No, I'm afraid i'm not going to turn now. Rightly or wrongly, I have my principles. Maybe they're dated but I'm too old and focced to change now.
In all honesty, in or out of the EU, I'm focced  :lol
I am a dinosaur, and the first to admit it. I was born and brought up on the history and values of this country, and served 8 years in our armed forces. I'm a patriot at heart. Again, all that for better or worse.
This whole debate is about business, corporations, money. It doesn't matter where these are located at the end of the day - they have their own interests at heart, shareholders and company executives. If us minions benefit from that in any way, it's purely incidental. They will continue to treat the rest with the barest consideration they can get away with. If they can replace people with machines, AI, robots, because that's more efficient, they will have not one second thought about it.

At most, if there were another referendum including the option to remain in the EU, I might withhold my vote. Maybe it is time that the younger generations decided what they want, and us old focs stood aside. It really won't make any difference to me. Being in the EU won't improve my lot any.

Personally, I'd like to have seen a better EU than is currently being pushed forwards, with us at the heart of it. But Merkel and Macron have shown that we would never get that. Even fully inside the EU, the UK was always considered as an outsider. We were told we never understood them. If that was the case, some us certainly don't now, given what has passed between us since the referendum.

But as I said, none of it really matters to me, because none of it is relevant to me anymore.
So if you can get it back, have your EU membership, and enjoy. I don't want it still, not in the way that it was, and appeared to be going.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 05:34:39 PM
 Well looks like it’s going to turn into the nightmarish farce many of us thought it would.
It’s possible the thought, or rather the reality of a No Deal Brexit might pull enough BREXIT Tories back in to get May’s plan though the cabinet (maybe we’ll get a better idea of that deal tomorrow).  Then….
No point blabbing on much more, let’s see what happens.
And if it fails – Labour wants a general election so that they can sort it out – even though they don’t have a plan either. 
A second referendum – in the hope folks vote to stay in as we are would solve everything, but plunge the country into an even deeper crises if folks voted for BREXIT again.
In the meantime, the contingency plans need to be acted on.  The UK needs to start getting it’s stock piles of food, medicines  etc etc in place. 
It’s anybody’s guess now.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 November 2018, 06:41:39 PM
I must say I agree with all 3 of you. Yes, irrespective of the EU,  big business rules. They make or influence all the decisions. Pay their taxes wherever they like. We are merely components, either as producers or consumers.


I also agree that whatever is being proposed for transition, will also become the long-term. BINO - Brexit In Name Only. Both In but Out with a few tweaks and concessions, to make it look good.


I also have no idea what will happen next. May needs to get her proposals through several hurdles - Cabinet, Party, Parliament, the EU itself. Plenty to go wrong. Parliament is going to be the most difficult.


If she doesn't get it all the way through, anybodies guess. Anyway I've stocked up on tins.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 14 November 2018, 06:46:59 PM

fraid ill never change either chaps. im also unashamedly patriotic, believe in god and country etc. I am aware that people like Nick and me are moving to the minority as the older generations die out, but thats ok.
Do you know, I can honestly say, if Corbyn, Abbot and Mcdonnell got in I would believe that our country would be slaughtered for ever. But I can also honestly say if he did I would respect the will of the electorate, and accept it.
Thats all those of us who won the referendum asked really. That the democratic decision be not only respected, but that everybody pulled together to make it work.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 07:09:13 PM
 
Quote
That the democratic decision be not only respected, but that everybody pulled together to make it work.

But that is precisely where the problem lies.


Firstly it is a referendum that should have never happened.  It happened because the Tories offered it as a means to unite their party and kill UKIP – and it worked.  They won the general election.
In terms of making it work,


Putting aside the disastrous campaign (LEAVE – absolute lies REMAIN – absolute fear) – nobody actually knew what BREXIT was – or rather what shape it would take.  That came after the vote – when asked May told us it would be – a red white and blue BREXIT (ie she didn’t have a clue).


She then focced up by going to the electorate – she did so in order to avoid the very situation that she is in now.  But that didn’t work – and as a result she is in the hands of the DUP and parliament as a whole.  And anyway the Tories might be in government – by the skin of their teeth – but they are split and out of control.


But ultimately what you are asking the majority of MP’s in parliament to do OGRI is to vote to implement something that they wholeheartedly and absolutely believe is not in the best interests of their constituents or the country as a whole. 



And then there is Ireland.


David Cameron offered you this referendum cos he knew the country would reject BREXIT.  He was so confident he never even bothered to consider the consequences, should he turn out to be wrong.  Doh!  Doh doh doh doh!


I believe these may well be the first few days of a country in a full-blown crisis.  I hope not, but it’s looking like it.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 07:10:33 PM
Quote
I also have no idea what will happen next.
That's the only thing we can all be sure of.  Nobody has a clue.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 14 November 2018, 07:16:41 PM
Quote
I also have no idea what will happen next.
That's the only thing we can all be sure of.  Nobody has a clue.


 :eek  I think that's the first time I have actually heard Remainers admit this! What's up lads, batteries in your crystal balls run out?  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 07:29:06 PM
 
Quote
:eek  I think that's the first time I have actually heard Remainers admit this! What's up lads, batteries in your crystal balls run out?  :lol


 
But this is exactly what I predicted.  Or rather I predicted that, further down the line, BREXIT will not happen and we will continue as fully paid up members – though obviously that’s what I want – it’s still a strong possibility.  I don’t think BREXIT is possible – of cours, I may be about to find out I am wrong.
Quote
im also unashamedly patriotic, believe in god and country etc.
I don’t see what any of that has to do with it OGRI.  Do God fearing people want their country to be poorer? Do patriots want their patriotic elected representatives to vote against their own conscience and belief, to vote with Boris and Jacob, and against the best interest of their constituents?

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 07:29:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut74Tkz4Eho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut74Tkz4Eho)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 November 2018, 07:48:20 PM
To be fair to May (and I find that very difficult) she was up shit street whatever option /proposal /result she came up with.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 14 November 2018, 07:51:35 PM


Quote
That the democratic decision be not only respected, but that everybody pulled together to make it work.

But that is precisely where the problem lies.


Firstly it is a referendum that should have never happened.  It happened because the Tories offered it as a means to unite their party and kill UKIP – and it worked.  They won the general election.
In terms of making it work,


Putting aside the disastrous campaign (LEAVE – absolute lies REMAIN – absolute fear) – nobody actually knew what BREXIT was – or rather what shape it would take.  That came after the vote – when asked May told us it would be – a red white and blue BREXIT (ie she didn’t have a clue).


She then focced up by going to the electorate – she did so in order to avoid the very situation that she is in now.  But that didn’t work – and as a result she is in the hands of the DUP and parliament as a whole.  And anyway the Tories might be in government – by the skin of their teeth – but they are split and out of control.


But ultimately what you are asking the majority of MP’s in parliament to do OGRI is to vote to implement something that they wholeheartedly and absolutely believe is not in the best interests of their constituents or the country as a whole. 



And then there is Ireland.


David Cameron offered you this referendum cos he knew the country would reject BREXIT.  He was so confident he never even bothered to consider the consequences, should he turn out to be wrong.  Doh!  Doh doh doh doh!


I believe these may well be the first few days of a country in a full-blown crisis.  I hope not, but it’s looking like it.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 14 November 2018, 07:55:14 PM
Quote
That the democratic decision be not only respected, but that everybody pulled together to make it work.

But that is precisely where the problem lies.


Firstly it is a referendum that should have never happened.  It happened because the Tories offered it as a means to unite their party and kill UKIP – and it worked.  They won the general election.
In terms of making it work,


Putting aside the disastrous campaign (LEAVE – absolute lies REMAIN – absolute fear) – nobody actually knew what BREXIT was – or rather what shape it would take.  That came after the vote – when asked May told us it would be – a red white and blue BREXIT (ie she didn’t have a clue).


She then focced up by going to the electorate – she did so in order to avoid the very situation that she is in now.  But that didn’t work – and as a result she is in the hands of the DUP and parliament as a whole.  And anyway the Tories might be in government – by the skin of their teeth – but they are split and out of control.


But ultimately what you are asking the majority of MP’s in parliament to do OGRI is to vote to implement something that they wholeheartedly and absolutely believe is not in the best interests of their constituents or the country as a whole. 



And then there is Ireland.


David Cameron offered you this referendum cos he knew the country would reject BREXIT.  He was so confident he never even bothered to consider the consequences, should he turn out to be wrong.  Doh!  Doh doh doh doh!


I believe these may well be the first few days of a country in a full-blown crisis.  I hope not, but it’s looking like it.
 

but it did happen mate.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 November 2018, 08:39:07 PM
Quote
To be fair to May (and I find that very difficult) she was up shit street whatever option /proposal /result she came up with.
Agree. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 14 November 2018, 10:05:28 PM
truth is fellers, we all got focced. Good job we got our bikes huh ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 November 2018, 10:08:38 AM

I've just fainted.....  :eek


Just to clarify. I've not experienced a Road To Damascus Epiphany or such like.


It's a pragmatic descion. Like I said before, it's a very reluctant one with no great enthusiasm that's based on how things stand at the moment.


They're saying this deal is, and will be, the only one offered. In that case we're better off staying in. At least then we get to keep the good bits such as the EHIC cards etc...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 November 2018, 10:16:02 AM
The whole thing is about pragmatism. Nothing is perfect, and the EU certainly isn't. But to keep the good bits you need to accept the bad bits. Then change it from within.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 15 November 2018, 12:04:46 PM
If the SNP is smart, they will be manoeuvring behind the scenes to back Brexit (they cannot be seen to be doing this). That way, they'll be able to call for another independence referendum, which will go massively in their favour. An independent Scotland will be able to waltz back into the arms of the EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 November 2018, 12:48:11 PM

The whole thing is about pragmatism.


You'd expect it to be so I suppose. The EU is more akin to a cult or a religion to those protesters that were trying to drown out Huw Edwards on The Six O'clock News last night though. I wanted to hear what he'd got to say about the developments that were just breaking as he spoke, but you could barely catch a word he was saying :rolleyes .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 15 November 2018, 01:11:38 PM
Just been listening to prime ministers question time seems to me that no matter whether they are labour or conservative members house, it seems most think this is a bad deal and we are being sold down the river. For those of you in London can some one confirm the Union Jack is still flying over Parliament not a white flag.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 November 2018, 03:08:22 PM
Actually we're off to London this evening. Been told to avoid Parliament Square as Jacob Rees-Mogg has just exploded  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 15 November 2018, 03:31:34 PM
They all seem on a short fuse which ever side of the fence or party they sit, talk about lions led by donkeys god help us as that shower in parliament don't seem to have a clue.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 15 November 2018, 04:39:40 PM
Quote
That the democratic decision be not only respected, but that everybody pulled together to make it work.

But that is precisely where the problem lies.


Firstly it is a referendum that should have never happened.  It happened because the Tories offered it as a means to unite their party and kill UKIP – and it worked.  They won the general election.
In terms of making it work,


Putting aside the disastrous campaign (LEAVE – absolute lies REMAIN – absolute fear) – nobody actually knew what BREXIT was – or rather what shape it would take.  That came after the vote – when asked May told us it would be – a red white and blue BREXIT (ie she didn’t have a clue).


She then focced up by going to the electorate – she did so in order to avoid the very situation that she is in now.  But that didn’t work – and as a result she is in the hands of the DUP and parliament as a whole.  And anyway the Tories might be in government – by the skin of their teeth – but they are split and out of control.


But ultimately what you are asking the majority of MP’s in parliament to do OGRI is to vote to implement something that they wholeheartedly and absolutely believe is not in the best interests of their constituents or the country as a whole. 



And then there is Ireland.


David Cameron offered you this referendum cos he knew the country would reject BREXIT.  He was so confident he never even bothered to consider the consequences, should he turn out to be wrong.  Doh!  Doh doh doh doh!


I believe these may well be the first few days of a country in a full-blown crisis.  I hope not, but it’s looking like it.


Had everyone respected the decision, then things may have turned out differently. As it is, the splits into several factions destroyed any semblance of national unity and its this that has signalled to the EU that we are weak nation, ready to be shafted, our political leaders having no authority, the blairites that have been hiding at the bottom of the pond are ready to resurface and move Corbyn out, Rees Bogg ready to step up when the PM goes. Worst constitutional crisis in living memory. And all because you lost in a perfectly fair ballot, but couldnt accept the result.


Shame on you
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 05:49:44 PM
 
Quote
If the SNP is smart, they will be manoeuvring behind the scenes to back Brexit (they cannot be seen to be doing this).

Well no.  They don’t back BREXIT politically, and in fact 63% of Scots voted to REMAIN.  The single market is essential to Scotland’s economy, and particularly so as Scotland has significant and growing tourism industry which for many years now has relied on seasonal European labour.


Scotland can’t support the customs union deal as we need free movement. 



Quote
That way, they'll be able to call for another independence referendum, which will go massively in their favour.
I wouldn’t be so sure.  It might, it might not.  Certainly, many Scots are well peeved at this BREXIT mess that has been forced upon us by England.  But then there are many within the SNP who want BREXIT, and then there is the tribal aspect of Scottish politics – the Union Jack Waving God Save the Queen Unionists – who will never ever support independence.


I mean how many Tory governments that we didn’t vote for have we endured? 



The SNP would never be forgiven by anybody for gambling our whole economy in the hope of a good indy 2 result.
Quote
An independent Scotland will be able to waltz back into the arms of the EU.
The most important thing for Scotland is the here and now, we can’t afford to leave the Single Market. 


 
But what’s happening right now is though Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to REMAIN in the EU and Scotland desperately wants to at least remain in the single market, the DUP does not.  Northern Ireland will under this deal remain in the customs union but will also remain in much of the single market for goods.  So the DUP gets what it doesn’t want and the SNP doesn’t get what it wants.
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 05:51:37 PM
All the European nations must think we are all absolutely mad. :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 15 November 2018, 06:00:11 PM
All the European nations must think we are all absolutely mad. :lol


They will if we accept May's deal.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 06:21:19 PM
Quote
They will if we accept May's deal.
May is something of a survivor.  But how much longer?
Her government is in ruins, the deal is dead in the water and pariamentary defeat looms.
She sure puts a brave face on it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 15 November 2018, 06:25:38 PM

May is something of a survivor.  But how much longer?
Her government is in ruins, the deal is dead in the water and pariamentary defeat looms.
She sure puts a brave face on it.


What choice does she have? Can you see her coming up with a deal that everyone will be happy with? She must be feeling quite resigned to her fate.
I have come to the conclusion that the UK cannot do an acceptable deal with the EU. The only reason the EU stays in the negotiations must be that they are hoping to gain complete jurisdiction over all the UK's affairs. To me, that will always be unacceptable.


NO DEAL!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: unfazed on 15 November 2018, 06:47:58 PM
All the European nations must think we are all absolutely mad. :lol
Never truer words spoken  :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 06:52:59 PM
Quote
I have come to the conclusion that the UK cannot do an acceptable deal with the EU. The only reason the EU stays in the negotiations must be that they are hoping to gain complete jurisdiction over all the UK's affairs. To me, that will always be unacceptable.

 Don’t be silly.  You still haven’t named what these EU laws are that have supposedly been imposed on us.


Did you know the single market accounts for 25% of global GDP.  And it’s right on our doorstep.  45% of our exports are to the EU.  50% of our imports are from the EU. 



So we are now going to pay the EU 35 billion pounds to make it more difficult for us to do the huge amount of business that we do with them.



I am however increasingly confident, though not 100% sure, that should there be a complete democratic meltdown over BREXIT, that parliament will pull together at the last minute to stop a No Deal BREXIT, but that ultimately will depend on a negotiation with the EU to suspend article 50.


But at the end of the day, don’t blame the EU.  Blame the Tories.  Blame David Cameron.  BREXIT was never a good idea, and as it turns out doesn’t appear to be possible.

 
Quote
Quote from: VNA on Today at 05:51:37 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg287131.html#msg287131[/url])<blockquote>All the European nations must think we are all absolutely mad. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])
</blockquote>Never truer words spoken  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

Is this the UK's biggest ever politcal farce?
   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 15 November 2018, 07:07:02 PM

 
Quote
Quote from: VNA on Today at 05:51:37 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg287131.html#msg287131[/url])<blockquote>All the European nations must think we are all absolutely mad. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])
</blockquote>Never truer words spoken  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])





Sorry fellas, but the views of one chap who wants out of the UK and another who isn't in it in the first place don't carry much weight for me on this one  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 15 November 2018, 07:32:15 PM
I've kept out of this so far. 
Just to prove a point. 

And I was gonna continue to keep out of it, and anyway the title of the thread pisses me off.

But;


So.......What happened to make you sell your principles up the river....Did you become a politician ?  :D


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 07:39:10 PM
Quote
So.......What happened to make you sell your principles up the river....Did you become a politician ?  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/cheesy.gif[/url])

May I quote Tommy again.
Quote
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

Youse lot just love it. ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 November 2018, 08:10:57 PM
Quote
So.......What happened to make you sell your principles up the river....Did you become a politician ?  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/cheesy.gif[/url])

May I quote Tommy again.
Quote
A thread Just for VNA..... fuck off   ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

Youse lot just love it. ;)


It got 'removed ' from the "What Get's My Goat" thread by popular demand....and turns out to be the most popular thread :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 November 2018, 08:23:31 PM
....wish I hadn't had so many sherbets Tuesday evening. Had a moment of alcohol induced benevolence in this thread. Missing joining in the Euro bickering so much :'(
Foc :wall Foc :wall Foc :wall :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 November 2018, 10:27:22 PM
I like this tweet.  Excellant interview that kinda sums things up;
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1063111958579306496
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grahamm on 15 November 2018, 10:57:12 PM
Had everyone respected the decision, then things may have turned out differently.

"If the result of this is 48-52, this isn't over" - Nigel Farage.

Hmm...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 November 2018, 12:07:42 AM
This just about sums it up
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grahamm on 16 November 2018, 12:52:25 AM
This just about sums it up

I'd laugh, but that's exactly what Cameron did: Got us into this situation, said he wouldn't resign, then focced up and walked away leaving others to try to sort out the mess he'd left us with... :(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 16 November 2018, 10:55:15 AM

Cameron just joined a long list of those that resigned of those that did the Blair went to war in Iraq, Brown  pensions. Cameron dropped us in the sh*t and resigned. 
Strikes me what we need is a Prime minister with common sense and some bottle and actually listens to the people of this country, but going through the whole shower of every party that presently inhabit parliament none spring to mind.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 November 2018, 03:48:22 PM
Here's an item from a business column in yesterday's London Evening News, word for word :

'There's still no clarity on whether EU regulators will accept UK made medicines which haven't undergone tests on EU soil. So British firms will have to build testing labs on the continent to carry out replica tests to those done in Britain. AstraZeneca, one of our better prepared multinationals has already built a lab in Sweden to do this (pointless) duplicate work. But have all our other manufacturers? Considering such Brexit measures have cost AZ £40 million it's highly doubtful smaller firms will have done. Such situations are repeated across every industry. '


This isn't Project Fear.  It's not even as if the new jobs will be in the UK. They'll be Swedish.


Welcome to Project Reality.....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 November 2018, 04:05:19 PM
It say's that there's no clarity on whether EU regulators willl accept them. So they might or they might not.
 It then says British firms will have to build testing labs on the continent. Surely they might or they might not?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 November 2018, 04:51:18 PM
But this is for transition, starting end of March 2019.....


What is certain, is that a No Deal result means they will.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 November 2018, 05:16:43 PM
Just been anounced that Amber Rudd is back in the cabinet replacing Esther McVey and the new brexit secretary is Stephen Barclay (no me neither :lol ).
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 16 November 2018, 05:20:37 PM
Here's an item from a business column in yesterday's London Evening News, word for word :

'There's still no clarity on whether EU regulators will accept UK made medicines which haven't undergone tests on EU soil. So British firms will have to build testing labs on the continent to carry out replica tests to those done in Britain. AstraZeneca, one of our better prepared multinationals has already built a lab in Sweden to do this (pointless) duplicate work. But have all our other manufacturers? Considering such Brexit measures have cost AZ £40 million it's highly doubtful smaller firms will have done. Such situations are repeated across every industry. '


This isn't Project Fear.  It's not even as if the new jobs will be in the UK. They'll be Swedish.


Welcome to Project Reality.....


Equally, EU medicines which have not undergone testing in the uk may or not be accepted here, so the european firms will have to build testing labs in the UK. Such situations are repeated across every industry  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 16 November 2018, 05:54:27 PM
 
Quote
So they might or they might not.

Exactly, that’s the whole point YamFazFan.  May has a deal, if accepted there will be relatively smooth transition.


If we crash out, then everything is up in the air.   
Don’t forget the EU is 25% of global GDP.  And it’s on out doorstep.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4PqRpdzNlA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4PqRpdzNlA)

Watch this – note at 15 seconds – “we can choose to leave with no deal, or we can risk no BREXIT at all, or we can choose to unite and choose the best deal that can be negotiated”


Continued full membership of the EU – the best deal of all – is still an option.


Also, Ms May is well aware of this – continued membership of the EU kills the Scottish Indy Ref 2 stone dead, and though the DUP want to leave, they’ll accept it as their electorate voted to remain and it guarantees the future of NI within the UK but with no Irish border.


They just have to plough through this, for a few weeks or whatever, until we all realise that BREXIT just is not really possible.  That is not possible without serious consequences for the whole UK.


The REMAIN majority in the Tory party must now move to kill the BRIXTEERS.


So says VNA.  But really anything can happen now. :\ :\
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 16 November 2018, 08:18:59 PM

Ah its like a plaster mate, just gotta yank the bugger off and let the wound heal.
you know VNA now means Very Nearly Assimilated, right? ;) ;) ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 16 November 2018, 08:40:26 PM
one day we'll all look back on this and laugh. Hopefully.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 16 November 2018, 10:37:21 PM
Or cry.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 November 2018, 11:52:16 PM
Quote
Equally, EU medicines which have not undergone testing in the uk may or not be accepted here, so the european firms will have to build testing labs in the UK. Such situations are repeated across every industry  [/size]

Yes, but with a ratio of 27:1. It all makes perfect sense doesn't it :rolleyes


What is really getting my goat at the moment (to borrow a phrase from elsewhere) is that this is turning into a Tory internal fist fight again. Yes John Major's  'Bastards' are still there trying to wrestle control of the party. While the rest of the country is going up in flames, all they care about is who gets to be leader, which is where this all started
 :groan
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 12:04:55 AM
Quote
one day we'll all look back on this and laugh. Hopefully.         Or cry


It's our children and grandchildren who'll be crying. We'll be dead and despised.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 17 November 2018, 06:52:08 AM
Well it wont be us old ones apparently we are to old to understand what we are doing and just clog up the NHS and care services we've payed for the last 40/50 years
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: NorthWestern on 17 November 2018, 07:49:52 AM
Brexit?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 10:28:31 AM
Quote
one day we'll all look back on this and laugh. Hopefully.         Or cry


It's our children and grandchildren who'll be crying. We'll be dead and despised.
Hopefully we'll live long enought to recieve their thanks. I expect they'll be praising their forebears for having the wisdom and insight to see what a corrupt undemocratic racket the whole thing was.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 10:42:00 AM
Thought while this farce continues, I'll just post pictures

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 17 November 2018, 10:53:00 AM
Sometimes, reading this thread is like watching the history channel, with all its repeats from the whingeing, whining losers of Remain  :lol


The only important thing right now is what does this draft deal actually mean? All the discussion on telly is about the manoeuvring of a bunch of conniving, self-interested politician twats and their careers.


Give us in depth discussion in the media, then give us a vote: This deal or no deal. Remain is a historical artefact.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 10:59:42 AM
Sometimes, reading this thread is like watching the history channel, with all its repeats from the whingeing, whining losers of Remain  :lol

I had a bit of a wobble the other day :o .......but I'm back where I was now :D . Normal service has been resumed ;) . I voted Leave so on reflection I feel it's only right and proper to see it through and honour that 8)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 17 November 2018, 11:04:39 AM
Sometimes, reading this thread is like watching the history channel, with all its repeats from the whingeing, whining losers of Remain  :lol

I had a bit of a wobble the other day :o .......but I'm back where I was now :D . Normal service has been resumed ;) . I voted Leave so on reflection I feel it's only right and proper to see it through and honour that 8)


Are you sure?  :lol


You know that anti-UK chap who has no stake in our future one way or the other will be along to tell you you're mad soon?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 11:11:38 AM
Sometimes, reading this thread is like watching the history channel, with all its repeats from the whingeing, whining losers of Remain  :lol

I had a bit of a wobble the other day :o .......but I'm back where I was now :D . Normal service has been resumed ;) . I voted Leave so on reflection I feel it's only right and proper to see it through and honour that 8)


Are you sure?  :lol


I'm sure I voted Leave. I was the first one in the queue that morning. I'd camped out all night with my sleeping bag and my flask of hot tea :b . I was first and mtread and VNA were second and third respectively. Fortunately the voting percentages evened up a bit during the day :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grahamm on 17 November 2018, 12:03:48 PM
This deal or no deal.

Do you want to jump off the cliff yourself or be pushed?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 17 November 2018, 12:13:39 PM
I voted no in common market vote in the 1970's and my opinion has not change on that. Voted NO, NINE ,NON  to staying in the EU not heard any thing yet to make me change my mind from politician, experts or a certain member north of the border most of it is tainted by bullsh*t or bias one way or the other. Would be good if some experts could spell it out with no bullsh*t or bais. The whole of Brexit has proved the old saying of when do you know when a politician speaking with forked tongues, answer when their mouths are moving. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 17 November 2018, 12:20:17 PM


Do you want to jump off the cliff yourself or be pushed?


Look, I've found another bit. Let me brush some of the mud off. Yes, it's a classic illustration of how some people thought back then.


 :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 01:10:30 PM
Sometimes, reading this thread is like watching the history channel, with all its repeats from the whingeing, whining losers of Remain  :lol

I had a bit of a wobble the other day :o .......but I'm back where I was now :D . Normal service has been resumed ;) . I voted Leave so on reflection I feel it's only right and proper to see it through and honour that 8)


Are you sure?  :lol


I was inebriated Tuesday evening too :o
As soon as I woke up on Wednesday I thought Foc how am I gonna wriggle out of this one and get back in the Leave camp :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 01:11:12 PM
Quote
I had a bit of a wobble the other day [/size] .......but I'm back where I was now  . Normal service has been resumed  . I voted Leave so on reflection I feel it's only right and proper to see it through and honour that



No, you went for Remain last week, and nobody, but nobody is allowed to change their mind. Ever apparently.


Anyway, I've got you all your Xmas present  :)

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 17 November 2018, 01:46:37 PM

I was inebriated Tuesday evening too :o
As soon as I woke up on Wednesday I thought Foc how am I gonna wriggle out of this one and get back in the Leave camp :lol


You'd have to be inebriated to stay in that EU malarkey. Look, they are:


https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1063425437437755393


 :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 17 November 2018, 01:47:45 PM



 nobody is allowed to change their mind. Ever apparently.



Self included? Doh!  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 02:45:28 PM



Anyway, I've got you all your Xmas present  :)



I bet that's not Jean-Claude Juncker's personal mug ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 02:51:53 PM
In the absence of any intelligent conversation on here about the technical details of the government's current proposals for the EU transition period.......... I've decided just to take the piss :lol



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 03:06:06 PM
I've decided just to take the piss :lol

That's the bit I missed the most during my brief foray into 'Remaining' ;) :lol
To be serious for a moment though, as I've spent time on both sides of the argument both for and against I'm able to give a more balanced and reasoned opinion. Therefore my final conclusion on the matter carries more weight than most ;) .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 03:32:52 PM
Don't tell me you know what's in the box!

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 04:04:32 PM

Don't tell me you know what's in the box!


Some of the millions and millions they've had out of us over the years for next to nothing in return I hope ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 05:03:18 PM
I think this is all the money you'll be getting :)

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 06:22:27 PM
 :lol If they're hanging on to their last 50p how's he paid for that copy of The Sun?. I hope he's taking that shopping trolley back too ;) . Oh don't tell me, there's no need to because there will be nothing left in the shops to buy after Brexit will there :z .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 06:46:20 PM
You think they'll be shops!  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 07:21:39 PM
You think they'll be shops!  :eek
:lol
Therefore my final conclusion on the matter carries more weight than most ;) .
And it is........Leave with no deal :D
Pub tonight so I hadn't better post again this evening. Last time I did that I converted to Remain :'( . The liquor must bring out the European in me :rolleyes . Maybe that's why Junckers is so fanatical about it :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 07:26:31 PM
OK have a good one. You never know, you might bump into a mate down the pub :D



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 November 2018, 08:04:21 PM
I'm a long standing union member who believes in re-nationalising the essential public services/industries, which by the way should never have been privatised in the first place, and that the NHS is safer in the hands of The Labour Party.
Hardly the hallmarks of your typical Tory :rolleyes
Right time for a pint :b .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 08:22:32 PM
Then I'm the same as you..... apart from Jeremy's last bit. I'm with Jeremy on that bit  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 November 2018, 08:22:50 PM
 Look on the bright side, everybody is united on May’s deal.
Those who voted LEAVE hate it as it keeps us tied to a customs union and following EU rules.
Those who voted REMAIN hate it, cos we are just paying 35 billion for a very cheap and nasty version of what we already have.
So yeah LEAVE and REMAINERS are united on the deal. :D
Keep posting the pictures mtread. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 November 2018, 08:24:46 PM
Quote
I'm a long standing union member who believes in re-nationalising the essential public services/industries, which by the way should never have been privatised in the first place,
Tell me about it :\
BREXIT is just about finishing the work that Thatcher started.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 November 2018, 08:39:43 PM
VNA we could play this game with the responses. See who can fill a card first :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 10:51:48 AM
That's handy. :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 10:55:33 AM
Quote
I've decided just to take the piss 


That's the bit I missed the most during my brief foray into 'Remaining'   



You should have stuck with Remain, we've got all the best jokes  :)



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 11:04:55 AM
What I find amazing is that the Tories (aka the government) has now split into 4 factions :


Remainers /People's Voters - Anna Soubry & Co
May's Dealers - May, Hammond etc (some of the cabinet)
Let's amend May's Dealers - Leadsom, Gove etc (some more of the current cabinet)
No Dealers - Moggites


and that doesn't even include the supporting DUP. Who just want to ensure the document excludes any mention of dinosaurs.


You honestly couldn't make it up. Meanwhile here's a reminder of the current map of Europe....

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 11:11:54 AM
Quote
I've decided just to take the piss 


That's the bit I missed the most during my brief foray into 'Remaining'   
You should have stuck with Remain, we've got all the best jokes  :)

I thank god I wore my corset for I fear my sides would have split and I only didn't laugh out loud in case my head fell off :groan

Speaking of jokes, I was so tempted to post.........'REMAIN!' :woot as a wind-up around about midnight last night :lol . Thought better of it in the end though.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 11:14:09 AM
Don't know what happened there. It's put my post inside your quote :rolleyes .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 11:27:28 AM
 
Quote
What I find amazing is that the Tories (aka the government) has now split into 4 factions :
 
 
 Remainers /People's Voters - Anna Soubry & Co
 May's Dealers - May, Hammond etc (some of the cabinet)
 Let's amend May's Dealers - Leadsom, Gove etc (some more of the current cabinet)
 No Dealers - Moggites
 
 
 and that doesn't even include the supporting DUP. Who just want to ensure the document excludes any mention of dinosaurs.
 
 
 You honestly couldn't make it up. Meanwhile here's a reminder of the current map of Europe....

I know I know.  It's unbeliveable.   But it’s even foccing worse than that. :'(


The DUP are the best, there position seems to be - we want same shite as everybody else, we do not under any circumstances want a better deal than the rest of the UK!


Then there is Labour – we won’t accept any deal unless it meets our 6 point test – what the foc! :eek   What the foc is the general public supposed to make of that.  They want a general election that they can’t possible get presumably so they can put forward their 6 point test or we don’t know what the fuck to do manifesto.


Corbyn was elected twice over by the membership, isn’t it about time he gave consideration to the wishes of his membership. 
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 11:30:12 AM
Quote
Don't know what happened there.
That's what David Cameron said on the 24th of June 2016 YamFazFan
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 11:43:25 AM
Quote
Don't know what happened there.

That's what David Cameron said on the 24th of June 2016 YamFazFan


That's what Dominic Raab said when he read the document he'd just drafted  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 12:43:41 PM
Quote
Then there is Labour – we won’t accept any deal unless it meets our 6 point test – what the foc!    What the foc is the general public supposed to make of that.  They want a general election that they can’t possible get presumably so they can put forward their 6 point test or we don’t know what the fuck to do manifesto.



``Never interrupt your enemy when he (she) is making a mistake ''


Napoleon Bonaparte


* mind you, he eventually lost  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 12:59:39 PM
You honestly couldn't make it up.

....and on the subject of quotations, isn't that one of Richard Littlejohn's that he often uses in his excellent Daily Mail column?. Always an unmissable read. Well we get it free with the shopping from Waitrose anyway :lol .

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6395847/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-stuck-middle-EU.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6395847/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-stuck-middle-EU.html)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 01:09:35 PM
If you try a bit harder, Waitrose will give you a proper free newspaper  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 01:16:44 PM
Not sure what you mean by a 'proper free newspaper', but we get The Guardian for wrapping the spud peelings in. You can chuck the whole lot straight on the compost heap then :lol .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 01:23:25 PM
Quote
Richard Littlejohn            excellent                              Daily Mail
Sorry?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 01:29:01 PM
Quote
Not sure what you mean by a 'proper free newspaper', but we get The Guardian for wrapping the spud peelings in. You can chuck the whole lot straight on the compost heap then .



But the Guardian is much more expensive. Have you thought of swapping them around?


https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/)


Having said that, means you can save the Mail for toilet duties  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 02:21:24 PM
That reminds me of Steptoe and Son. They used newspaper in 'The Khazi' didn't they :lol . Another Galton and Simpson classic.

I see Ray died just the other week didn't he. That's the last person associated with Hancock's Half Hour passed away I reckon. The end of an era.




Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 02:38:59 PM
I think they always used newspaper. The outside toilet featured quite a lot. Those were the days  :)


Yes both gone now. What was very sad was Hancock thinking he could go it alone. Didn't recognise the skill of the scriptwriters. The combination of script and delivery.


Saw a very emotional play some years ago 'Hancocks Last Half Hour', set in his hotel bedroom just before he takes his life.


Genius is often flawed.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 02:56:56 PM
Was that the play by Heathcote Williams?. Just looked up a review of it from The Fringe festival.
I remember watching an interview with Galton and Simpson and they said that Hancock had a saying 'We can do better' but apparently he didn't expand on that much. I also read that he was increasingly dissatisfied with his Half Hour character's 'loser' reputation.
Maybe he was worried about getting typecast. That certainly happened to Harry H Corbett didn't it.

I always thought that his peak was in the shows he did with Sid James. They had a chemistry and it's said that they genuinely liked each other in real life. I think he lost a great deal without Sid.
What a sad end on the other side of the world when he died.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 04:03:14 PM
Yes Heathcote Williams, performed by Pip Utton. Seen Pip in lots of one man stuff - Churchill, Hitler and even Thatcher. He is superb.


It was Hancock who of course ditched Sid James. He thought they were becoming a 'double act'. Of course it didn't harm Sid's career much.


Harry H Corbett was of course a classically trained actor, and always thought Steptoe & Son was a bit beneath him. Not sure how he squared that with 'Carry On Screaming'! Wilfred Bramble was a terrible alcoholic.


How these gems ever got made, I'm not sure!


We've had some brilliant writers, Clement and La Frenais, Croft and Perry, John Sullivan etc, but I think Galton and Simpson come out tops.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 04:07:09 PM
In a minute someone is going to come on and tell us to foc off and start a new thread - 'Comedy Greats'  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 04:10:49 PM




Former Australia PM Tony Abbott:


"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get. The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence. But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for.

It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy? A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are. Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers. Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere). UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids.

And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum. As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it. Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015"


Hear, hear!


Don't believe in the UK? The EU is waiting with open arms. Got your passport? Then what's stopping you?  ;) 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 04:30:09 PM
That's why he's the former Australian PM.....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 04:56:43 PM




Former Australia PM Tony Abbott:


"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get. The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence. But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for.

It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy? A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are. Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers. Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere). UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids.

And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum. As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it. Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015"



Stone me!, that's a good letter :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 04:57:55 PM
 
Quote
a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender.


Sounds a bit like - if you don't give us what we want we'll jump off a cliff.



Anyway I think she's already tried pointing a gun at her own heid.  Didn't work. :lol
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 05:24:29 PM

Quote
a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender.


Sounds a bit like - if you don't give us what we want we'll jump off a cliff.



Anyway I think she's already tried pointing a gun at her own heid.  Didn't work. :lol
 

There's that chap who wants nothing to do with the UK again.


That's why he's the former Australian PM.....


mtread, what qualifications and experience do you have that give you more knowledge than him?  ;)  You're a former...what, exactly? :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 18 November 2018, 05:37:35 PM
Perhaps we could ask the European court to help sort this mess out......when they've finished imposing this sort of shit on us......who the fuck do they think they are telling us who we have to house. It's a fucking joke.
Walk away from the lot of them, show a bit of backbone, get your head down and show the world what Great Britain can achieve.
The EU is nothing short of an unelected dictatorship that are acting like the bully boys in a private school.
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
If only we had a leader who kept this in mind when dealing with the fucktards.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155806173051179&id=647266178 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155806173051179&id=647266178)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 05:58:00 PM
 
Quote
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
Sorry – so May should – pull out a loaded gun, point it at her own heid, and shout at Barnier “This is going to seriously wound you!” then pull the trigger!


I see. :eek
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 06:06:07 PM
Quote
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
Sorry – so May should – pull out a loaded gun, point it at her own heid, and shout at Barnier “This is going to seriously wound you!” then pull the trigger!


I see. :eek


And we should listen to you because...?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 November 2018, 06:13:04 PM
Quote
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
Sorry – so May should – pull out a loaded gun, point it at her own heid, and shout at Barnier “This is going to seriously wound you!” then pull the trigger!


I see. :eek
 
Yes it would seriously wound Barnier because her head would be is up his arse just like it has been for 2 years 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 06:14:14 PM
Just heard on the news that Macron is talking about full European sovereignty. So no super state eh? Ok... :rolleyes


Not to mention his previous statement about wanting an EU army to defend against...the U.S.A.?!  :eek
Yes, I can see which way this EU project is going.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 November 2018, 06:22:54 PM
May is going back to Brussels in the week to try and get a better deal, and they will just chuck her back in the channel like they did with Cammoron.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 06:39:04 PM
Perhaps we could ask the European court to help sort this mess out......when they've finished imposing this sort of shit on us......who the fuck do they think they are telling us who we have to house. It's a fucking joke.
Walk away from the lot of them, show a bit of backbone, get your head down and show the world what Great Britain can achieve.
The EU is nothing short of an unelected dictatorship that are acting like the bully boys in a private school.
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
If only we had a leader who kept this in mind when dealing with the fucktards.


Absolutely spot-on dazza  :thumbup


I was waiting to find out more about what this deal would actually mean, but it's now obvious; Germany and France are looking for full European domination, including over the UK. Not militarily yet, perhaps, although some of Macron's rhetoric makes you wonder.
Now, I don't care what the draft deal says, it is time we just walked away from that snake pit.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 06:40:44 PM
 Looks this is roughly what is going to happen.


Our representatives will have to decide whether or not they are going to vote for May’s deal.


It does not look, at the moment, as if they will.


Remember – “We want a red white and blue BREXIT – that is the right BREXIT for the United Kingdom”
Which roughly translates into – not got a clue right now.


But what she did do at that time was meet privately with the captains of British industry, in particular the bosses of certain car manufactures.  They have been given assurances.  In other words, there will not be a No Deal BREXIT.


So the choice is;
May’s deal.
Or suspend article 50. 



May will be meeting Juncker to discuss our future relationship under the deal that is on the table, and further to discuss a possible political melt-down in the UK. Ie contingency plans to avert a NO Deal situation. 
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 06:47:09 PM
Scottish Independence Chap, I'm still waiting for your reply to:




And we should listen to you because...?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 06:58:16 PM
Quote
They know full well us leaving would seriously wound them.
Sorry – so May should – pull out a loaded gun, point it at her own heid, and shout at Barnier “This is going to seriously wound you!” then pull the trigger!


I see. :eek
 
Yes it would seriously wound Barnier because her head would be is up his arse just like it has been for 2 years

 :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 06:58:53 PM
Quote
Now, I don't care what the draft deal says, it is time we just walked away from that snake pit.
I agree ditch the draft deal and cancel article 50 - job done.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 07:19:24 PM
Quote
Now, I don't care what the draft deal says, it is time we just walked away from that snake pit.
I agree ditch the draft deal and cancel any further attempts to make a deal with the EU - job done.


At last, we agree on something  :rollin


Pity, as your view from your anti-UK position counts for less than nothing  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 07:24:39 PM
Scottish Independence Chap, I'm still waiting for your reply to:




And we should listen to you because...?


Are you struggling with this one VNA? What's up, having trouble with the English language?  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 07:41:37 PM
Scottish Independence Chap, I'm still waiting for your reply to:




And we should listen to you because...?


Are you struggling with this one VNA? What's up, having trouble with the English language?  :lol


Why are we waiting
VNA's hesitating


 :rollin


I guess he must be realising the hypocrisy of his position.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 07:45:41 PM
Quote
mtread, what qualifications and experience do you have that give you more knowledge than him?    You're a former...what, exactly?



I'm a retired HM Customs & Excise policy maker,  and law and regulation implementer. That good enough for you?  :b
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 07:52:58 PM
Quote
mtread, what qualifications and experience do you have that give you more knowledge than him?    You're a former...what, exactly?



I'm a retired HM Customs & Excise policy maker,  and law and regulation implementer. That good enough for you?  :b



Retired? Then no, it's not good enough for me, since a former Aussie PM isn't good enough for you  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 November 2018, 07:56:17 PM
Quote
mtread, what qualifications and experience do you have that give you more knowledge than him?    You're a former...what, exactly?



I'm a retired HM Customs & Excise policy maker,  and law and regulation implementer. That good enough for you?  :b



Retired? Then no, it's not good enough for me, since a former Aussie PM isn't good enough for you  :lol
Touché
And yes the irony of that phrase I have not missed - given the conversation  subject
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 07:56:30 PM
Yeah Hedgetrimmer, you don't accept  anything unless it fits your Brexit Brick Wall. Here's your new ballot paper.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 07:58:12 PM
Quote
touché


Hardly....  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 08:02:26 PM
Yeah Hedgetrimmer, you don't accept  anything unless it fits your Brexit Brick Wall.




Mmhmm? And what of your Remain one?  ;)   :wall :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 18 November 2018, 08:08:49 PM
Scottish Independence Chap, I'm still waiting for your reply to:




And we should listen to you because...?


Are you struggling with this one VNA? What's up, having trouble with the English language?  :lol


Why are we waiting
VNA's hesitating


 :rollin


I guess he must be realising the hypocrisy of his position.
You just know he's googling shit so he can come back with a load of pointless anonymous quotes and handpicked unproven  supposed facts along with plethora of eyelid closing waffle. :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 08:10:53 PM
Meanwhile, I'm just continuing to take the piss ;)

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 08:13:18 PM
Meanwhile, I'm just continuing to take the piss ;)


Because that's all you've got left  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 08:14:12 PM
You just know he's googling shit so he can come back with a load of pointless anonymous quotes and handpicked unproven  supposed facts along with plethora of eyelid closing waffle. :lol :lol :lol


Depressing isn't it. Probably thinks we'll all read them too  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 08:26:30 PM
Quote
mtread, what qualifications and experience do you have that give you more knowledge than him?    You're a former...what, exactly?



I'm a retired HM Customs & Excise policy maker,  and law and regulation implementer. That good enough for you?  :b



Retired? Then no, it's not good enough for me, since a former Aussie PM isn't good enough for you  :lol

 I was thinking oh no Hedgetrimmer's focced :'( , then the genius reply saves the day  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 08:35:48 PM

 I was thinking oh no Hedgetrimmer's focced :'( , then the genius reply saves the day  :lol


You're not likely to be focced in this argument when you're on the side of democracy, YamFazFan.
It seems ze Germans along with the French are getting ready to enforce their vision of ze fourth Reich on the rest of Europe. Hopefully, just by political means this time, but it still illustrates their dislike of democracy.
It doesn't seem long ago we were getting a hammering for our old empire, and enforcing our way on others around the world. But now, suddenly, it's ok if the Franco-German "visionaries" want to do it to the rest of Europe. History shows us too that expansionism knows no bounds.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 08:58:07 PM
Quote
You're not likely to be focced in this argument when you're on the side of democracy,
I take it you'd be quite happy with another referendum then? Just to reinforce the Leave vote of course? After all,  you've got nothing to lose....

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 09:00:20 PM
Quote
You're not likely to be focced in this argument when you're on the side of democracy, YamFazFan.
It seems ze Germans along with the French are getting ready to enforce their vision of ze fourth Reich on the rest of Europe. Hopefully, just by political means this time, but it still illustrates their dislike of democracy.
It doesn't seem long ago we were getting a hammering for our old empire, and enforcing our way on others around the world. But now, suddenly, it's ok if the Franco-German "visionaries" want to do it to the rest of Europe. History shows us too that expansionism knows no bounds.
Help ma boab!
 Presumably you are in with the fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists of UKIP.   :eek :eek
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 November 2018, 09:01:32 PM
 Mtread, if possible, and seeing as you have some experience and expertise in this area, could you explain to the forum, briefly and in layman’s terms, what is likely to happen after 29th march 2019 if the UK were to crash out of the EU with no deal? 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 10:03:43 PM


 I was thinking oh no Hedgetrimmer's focced :'( , then the genius reply saves the day  :lol


You're not likely to be focced in this argument when you're on the side of democracy, YamFazFan.


Undeniably true :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 November 2018, 10:14:32 PM

Mtread, if possible, and seeing as you have some experience and expertise in this area, could you explain to the forum, briefly and in layman’s terms, what is likely to happen after 29th march 2019 if the UK were to crash out of the EU with no deal?


You're only asking mtread because you know he's going to give an answer you agree with :lol


He might well have expertise in those areas he's stated, but that's no guarantee of an unbiased opinion ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 18 November 2018, 10:25:09 PM
Help ma boab!
 Presumably you are in with the fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists of UKIP.   :eek :eek


You can presume what you like - ready to invoke Godwin yet?  :rolleyes 
Are you now going to tell us why we should listen to you at all? Considering your anti-UK stance?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 November 2018, 11:58:44 PM
Quote
You're only asking mtread because you know he's going to give an answer you agree with He might well have expertise in those areas he's stated, but that's no guarantee of an unbiased opinion




The purely technical unbiased view is that we leave without a 'transitional period'. We immediately go onto what is called '3rd Country' terms and trade with the EU as an outside country. Because we haven't joined EFTA or the EEA we would be subject to Customs controls for freight and passengers at all border points. Under EU rules we haven't agreed terms with any other countries, so by 29 March we will have no trade agreements at all, with anybody. I doubt there has been much if any preparation for this.


That's just the Customs side. Similar issues with fishing, agricultural policy, medicines, air traffic, residency rights etc etc etc.


What the consequences of all that is, short term and long term, I'll let you think about.


Has anybody here read the current draft withdrawal agreement? I have, otherwise I'd be relying on other people's biased opinions, or what's written on the side of a bus.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 12:02:54 AM
Back to the bias. So Brexiteers, which one is it?



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 12:07:11 AM
You can presume what you like - ready to invoke Godwin yet?  :rolleyes   
I had to look that up. I'd never heard of that term before and had no idea what it meant.
They refer to it as 'Godwin's Law' on Wikipedia. Interesting. I can understand the context that you've used it in now. I was aware of people using what I now know as 'Godwin's' previously, but didn't know that there was a recognised definition of it.
I'd just interpreted it as sore losers making a desperate attempt to kill an argument they'd lost ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 19 November 2018, 08:27:54 AM

There's an easy answer to this Brexit/remain problem. Give the English people a referendum on remaining in the UK or being an independent country same as the Scottish had' or at least let us have equal  rights to the Scottish, welsh and Ulster our own assembly, so we don't have to listen to to bias and whinning from them.












 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 10:18:24 AM



Has anybody here read the current draft withdrawal agreement? I have, otherwise I'd be relying on other people's biased opinions, or what's written on the side of a bus.



What all 585 pages? :eek . I'd laugh if you got to the end and the last page was missing ;) :lol .



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 10:25:07 AM
Good one. Somebody probably lit a fag with it or something  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 10:29:35 AM
I've been thinking about this long and hard overnight and had a bit of an epiphany. Looking at all the pros and cons, and all the suggestions on here, particularly Dazza's detailed analysis of Article 24 of the Withdrawal Agreement, and the effect on seasonal EU workers in the agricultural sector, and I'm finally persuaded we ought to Leave :'(














































































.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 10:57:52 AM

Good one. Somebody probably lit a fag with it or something  ;)



I knew you'd spot that one. Couldn't resist it ;) .


Everyone else is thinking 'what the foc are they on about?'  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 11:04:11 AM

I've been thinking about this long and hard overnight and had a bit of an epiphany. Looking at all the pros and cons, and all the suggestions on here, particularly Dazza's detailed analysis of Article 24 of the Withdrawal Agreement, and the effect on seasonal EU workers in the agricultural sector, and I'm finally persuaded we ought to Leave :'(














































































.


I'm sure I own the copyright © to some of that text :rolleyes :lol


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 11:18:48 AM
Quote
I knew you'd spot that one. Couldn't resist it .Everyone else is thinking 'what the foc are they on about?' 



Yep, that skinny bloke for a start. He could have gone without any hardship whatsoever.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 11:40:23 AM
Quote
I'm sure I own the copyright © to some of that text [/size] 



OK, so you could always try suing me............ in the European Courts  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grahamm on 19 November 2018, 12:18:31 PM
I just did a search for "brexit what will happen under WTO rules", here's the first seven results:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872)
https://theconversation.com/no-deal-seven-reasons-why-a-wto-only-brexit-would-be-bad-for-britain-102009 (https://theconversation.com/no-deal-seven-reasons-why-a-wto-only-brexit-would-be-bad-for-britain-102009)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-leave-no-deal-what-happens-eu-talks-david-davis-a8460416.html)
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-option/ (http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-option/)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/17/the-guardian-view-on-brexit-and-trade-the-wto-is-not-a-safety-net (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/17/the-guardian-view-on-brexit-and-trade-the-wto-is-not-a-safety-net)
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-deal/no-deal-brexit-what-it-might-mean-for-britain-idUSKBN1KS1E2 (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-deal/no-deal-brexit-what-it-might-mean-for-britain-idUSKBN1KS1E2)
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/01/09/why-the-wto-option-for-brexit-will-prove-tricky (https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/01/09/why-the-wto-option-for-brexit-will-prove-tricky)
Can't say I see many positive views there.
Still, I'm sure Jacob Rees-Mogg is right that in 50 years everything will be great...
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 01:40:35 PM

Quote
I'm sure I own the copyright © to some of that text  



OK, so you could always try suing me............ in the European Courts  :lol



Hmmm maybe not. I'd had a few too many light ales down at The Hand and Racket that night :o
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 03:01:08 PM
Well stone me. And you a blood doner too  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 19 November 2018, 03:37:30 PM
We should treat VNA and mtread with the contempt they deserve and should totally ignore their pathetic ramblings. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 04:05:05 PM
Ha. Sounds like someone who has lost the argument to me :)



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 04:23:55 PM

We should treat VNA and mtread with the contempt they deserve and should totally ignore their pathetic ramblings.


That's a bit harsh isn't it? :rolleyes .


You devised the thread so that folk who disliked it being in the What Gets My Goat one didn't have to suffer the distress of reading any of the content.


I'm glad you did. It's currently my favourite thread on here :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 19 November 2018, 04:51:46 PM
We should treat VNA and mtread with the contempt they deserve and should totally ignore their pathetic ramblings.
The moment VNA described everyone who voted UKIP as a closet racist tells you everything you need to know about the man.
I was going to say he has no understanding of what a racist actually is but that would be untrue..... He only has to look in the mirror and go back and study some of his previous rants on this thread and others to know what a real racist sounds and looks like.
He hates the English and it shows.


This is how I see things.....
I don't pretend to understand the complexities of the whole situation, I would bet good money to say that nobody does.
However, I would liken it to being in a toxic relationship where your identity and personal wellbeing is being eroded away. As well as being a financial drain, you find you are having to do things you don't want to or agree with because your toxic partner and their associates are ganging up on you and think they know best.
You know you need to break free  but the thought of the uncertainty is keeping you from making the break.
You think about all the financial implications of leaving and know for a time you may well be worse off.
BUT......you have to think about the long term plan and getting your personal wellbeing and independence back.
If there's something that they don't like they protest with no regard to how it effects you ( operation stack)
You throw a party and they invite all their freeloading friends who want to eat your food and drink your beer.
Some of them even want to steal from you and tap into your generosity.
Most of them contribute and they are welcome but.......
A small minority want to fucking stab you and set fire to your house and you are powerless because your toxic partner is dictating what you have to put up with.
Fuck, some of them even want to rape and drug my underage daughter !
Bottom line is, I don't have to be a fucking expert to see what is happening to our once great country, I just need to have the courage make the break and take my happiness back.
If that's makes me a racist VNA, them I'm happy to accept your meaningless label.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 04:59:11 PM
Quote
I don't pretend to understand the complexities of the whole situation, I would bet good money to say that nobody does.


Hopefully somebody does, otherwise we are in real real trouble :eek


On your other point, obviously true, but reminds me of a phrase I've seen quoted - '' Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers ''
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 19 November 2018, 05:03:46 PM
Do you ? Honestly ?
And seriously mtread, as soon as you spout the racist card you lose credibility.
It's not racist to want control of your destiny.
I've experienced racism first hand....In Scotland, Wales, Ireland and on the continent. All against the English.
As a nation we've always welcomed other nationalities and I'm certainly not a racist.
Of course they exist, everywhere. Some are even disguised as liberals and left wingers.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 05:19:23 PM
I agree with what you say. But you haven't understood what I said. Read it again.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 19 November 2018, 05:28:48 PM
I agree with what you say. But you haven't understood what I said. Read it again.
I don't need to read it again to disagree with it.
The claim that all racists are brexiteers couldn't be further from the truth..... Just ask VNA  :lol
(That was tongue in cheek btw)

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 05:57:06 PM
And seriously dazza,  as soon as you spout the racist card you lose Credibility :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 19 November 2018, 06:04:43 PM
 :lol  Knew that was coming  :b
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 19 November 2018, 06:07:36 PM
Quote
The purely technical unbiased view is that we leave without a 'transitional period'. We immediately go onto what is called '3rd Country' terms and trade with the EU as an outside country. Because we haven't joined EFTA or the EEA we would be subject to Customs controls for freight and passengers at all border points. Under EU rules we haven't agreed terms with any other countries, so by 29 March we will have no trade agreements at all, with anybody. I doubt there has been much if any preparation for this.
 
 
That's just the Customs side. Similar issues with fishing, agricultural policy, medicines, air traffic, residency rights etc etc etc.
 
 
What the consequences of all that is, short term and long term, I'll let you think about.
 
 
Has anybody here read the current draft withdrawal agreement? I have, otherwise I'd be relying on other people's biased opinions, or what's written on the side of a bus.
OK. 
So, say the UK crashes out of the UK on the 29th of march 2019.  And say I have a small to medium manufacturing company (I don’t) making say fuel pumps for the auto industry.  I’ve got a number of contracts and one very nice one with a French car maker.  So twice a week I send a big truck full of fuel pumps to France.  I have an ongoing order, x number of pumps per week, top quality and must be delivered on time.  So it’s pretty simple, I send the pumps as asked, and they transfer the funds once a month to the company accounts.  We’re in the single market so it’s no different, apart from the exchange rate, than selling in the UK.  So easy.
My company has had informal reassurance through the industry that No Deal will not happen.  We’ve been told May has given private assurances to the big industry bosses.  Nothing to worry about really.   Competition is stiff and margins are tight, but all is OK. 
Shock horror we crash out of the EU.
I send truck as usual on the 30th of March.  I’ve done exactly as I’ve been doing for years.
So what will happen?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 07:44:42 PM
OK. 
So, say the UK crashes out of the UK on the 29th of march 2019.  And say I have a small to medium manufacturing company (I don’t) making say fuel pumps for the auto industry.  I’ve got a number of contracts and one very nice one with a French car maker.  So twice a week I send a big truck full of fuel pumps to France.  I have an ongoing order, x number of pumps per week, top quality and must be delivered on time.  So it’s pretty simple, I send the pumps as asked, and they transfer the funds once a month to the company accounts.  We’re in the single market so it’s no different, apart from the exchange rate, than selling in the UK.  So easy.
My company has had informal reassurance through the industry that No Deal will not happen.  We’ve been told May has given private assurances to the big industry bosses.  Nothing to worry about really.   Competition is stiff and margins are tight, but all is OK. 
Shock horror we crash out of the EU.
I send truck as usual on the 30th of March.  I’ve done exactly as I’ve been doing for years.
So what will happen?

Ha I've spotted the fatal flaw in your exemplar ;) .
You state that said fuel pumps are top quality.........what are they doing going into French cars then? :lol . It was all very credible up to that point :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: unfazed on 19 November 2018, 08:39:22 PM
This thread is better than watching the news about Brexit  :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 November 2018, 09:56:13 PM
Agree. Well, better than watching the BBC 'news' about it :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 11:55:47 PM
OK here's a more straightforward example




Under Article 13 of the draft transition agreement between UK and EU:


''Union citizens and United Kingdom nationals shall have the right to reside in the host State
under the limitations and conditions''

As I said I've read it :)


So under a No Deal scenario,  that will not apply and from the 30th March when we leave the EU with no deal, all UK citizens living in EU countries lose their right to residency, and can be sent home.


Everybody happy with that? Or didn't you realise?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 19 November 2018, 11:58:28 PM
And just to stimulate discussion, here's today's picture :)



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 07:53:47 AM

OK here's a more straightforward example




Under Article 13 of the draft transition agreement between UK and EU:


''Union citizens and United Kingdom nationals shall have the right to reside in the host State
under the limitations and conditions''

As I said I've read it :)


So under a No Deal scenario,  that will not apply and from the 30th March when we leave the EU with no deal, all UK citizens living in EU countries lose their right to residency, and can be sent home.


Everybody happy with that? Or didn't you realise?


Doesn't bother me. I've got no intention of living anywhere else.


I'd imagine that they'd come up with some sort of similar residency deal to the one in the draft agreement after we leave with no deal.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 08:59:06 AM

I like the picture by the way. Here's an alternative version of the script...






'Who are we?'......'Remainers!'


'What do we want?'......'A fourth referendum!'


'When do we want it?'.....'After we've lost the second and third!'


 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 10:18:02 AM
Quote
Doesn't bother me. I've got no intention of living anywhere else.


So you're quite happy to explain to the Forum members on here living in the EU why you want them sent home then? Typical selfish Brexiteer.




Quote
I'd imagine that they'd come up with some sort of similar residency deal [/size]
[size=78%] [/size]
[/size][size=78%]You imagine! What do you think has been going on for the last two and a half years covering residency and everything else that's important. It's called a deal, which is clearly what you lot don't want.[/size]

Honestly, does the attention span of Brexiteers not go beyond what's written on a bus. :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 11:33:33 AM

We don't want the deal that's currently on offer no.


I don't want those forum members sent home. I'm not bothered either way. It's nice to go on holiday but actually living abroad has never appealed to me one iota, so I have zero interest in the matter.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 11:51:57 AM
But that is the inevitable consequence of not having a deal with the EU by 29th March. It is what you do want.  :rolleyes



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 11:56:49 AM
Hang on a minute, I'll just check what's written on the bus.....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 20 November 2018, 12:15:24 PM
I wonder how many UK nationals living in the EU voted Leave
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 12:20:56 PM

I wonder how many UK nationals living in the EU voted Leave


I'd laugh if it's loads of them and they've basically just signed their own deportation orders :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 12:27:42 PM
No one need be deported if both sides are sensible about it. Except those living in a country illegally. The sooner they are deported, the better. One thing about May's deal that is good is that those living and working here already can stay. Thereafter, those wishing to come here must fit the UK's requirements, which are not unreasonable, and is a sensible thing to do.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 20 November 2018, 12:29:51 PM
Yes, they're all going to be deported and their properties bulldozed. :rolleyes
Exactly the sort of scaremongering we've been bombarded with throughout.
This isn't the Gaza strip we're talking about.
Please don't tell me you actually believe that'll happen.  :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 12:44:13 PM
Quote
I wonder how many UK nationals living in the EU voted Leave


None. If they weren't on the electoral roll in the UK, they didn't get a vote


Quote
Please don't tell me you actually believe that'll happen.  [/size]


What is it about 'No Deal' that you don't understand? So you like playing 'chicken' then?

The EU have made it clear that the current (agreed) deal can't be amended. We can't pick and choose what we want from it.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 12:52:48 PM

Hang on a minute, I'll just check what's written on the bus.....


I've just seen that bus!. Some remoaners bought it. It's now got a slogan on the side warning that UK nationals houses will be bulldozed and they'll get deported :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 12:53:08 PM
Quote
One thing about May's deal that is good is that those living and working here already can stay. Thereafter, those wishing to come here must fit the UK's requirements, which are not unreasonable, and is a sensible thing to do.


Again, factually wrong. When the transition deal starts on 30th March any other EU nationals can still come and stay and work during the transition period. After that these also can stay permanently if they've lived here for 5 years. Oh and they can bring their relatives to stay permanently. It's all in Article 13.  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 20 November 2018, 12:54:37 PM
Quote
I wonder how many UK nationals living in the EU voted Leave

None. If they weren't on the electoral roll in the UK, they didn't get a vote

So out of all of those that did have a vote - I wonder how many voted for brexit.
Quote
The EU have made it clear that the current (agreed) deal can't be amended.
Well of course they will say that wont they. That's called negotiating- something that May and the other morons have not got a clue how to do.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 12:58:02 PM
Hang on a minute! Who's withdrawn a post I've just replied to?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 01:08:01 PM
Quote
So out of all of those that did have a vote - I wonder how many voted for brexit.


Gibraltar (which did have a vote) is probably a good indicator - 96% Remain 4% Leave.


Now who's laughing  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 20 November 2018, 01:15:06 PM
Quote
So out of all of those that did have a vote - I wonder how many voted for brexit.

Gibraltar (which did have a vote) is probably a good indicator - 96% Remain 4% Leave.


So you're quite happy to explain to the Forum members on here living in the EU why you want them sent home then? Typical selfish Brexiteer.
 
So the Brexiteers are selfish but all those that voted to remain are not selfish.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 01:39:54 PM
Quote
One thing about May's deal that is good is that those living and working here already can stay. Thereafter, those wishing to come here must fit the UK's requirements, which are not unreasonable, and is a sensible thing to do.


Again, factually wrong. When the transition deal starts on 30th March any other EU nationals can still come and stay and work during the transition period. After that these also can stay permanently if they've lived here for 5 years. Oh and they can bring their relatives to stay permanently. It's all in Article 13.  :D


That's ok, because I want this deal to be rejected in Parliament, which it will be. Under a no deal exit, which is the only other option the EU will accept, we can decide for ourselves who stays and who comes in. It won't matter to you, because if Brexit goes through, you'll move to the EU. Everybody happy!  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 01:40:55 PM
Quote
So the Brexiteers are selfish but all those that voted to remain are not selfish.


Well done, you've got it at last  :)


Remainers want Forum members to live wherever they choose.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 01:47:06 PM

Quote
I wonder how many UK nationals living in the EU voted Leave


None. If they weren't on the electoral roll in the UK, they didn't get a vote



Why is there a full stop after the word 'None'?.


I've just looked it up. If they'd appeared on the electoral role within the previous 15 years then they were eligible to vote.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 01:54:43 PM
Quote
That's ok, because I want this deal to be rejected in Parliament,
Well at least that's one thing we want the same :\


Quote
we can decide for ourselves who stays and who comes in.
And so can the entire EU, or is that concept too difficult to grasp?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 01:58:04 PM

Remainers want Forum members to live wherever they choose.


I have no qualms about where you live  :)


But why would you stay in a country that, having left the EU, has, by your own admission, nothing left to offer you?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 02:03:16 PM
Quote
I've just seen that bus!. Some remoaners bought it. It's now got a slogan on the side warning that UK nationals houses will be bulldozed and they'll get deported

Blimey, don't you Brexiteers have any funny pictures of your own? Where's all that home grown talent you keep banging on about
 :rolleyes
Here's the last piss take for today
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 02:05:44 PM
Quote
That's ok, because I want this deal to be rejected in Parliament,
Well at least that's one thing we want the same :\


 Which doesn't make any sense going on the things you have previously said, such as the EU represents you better than the UK. This deal will give you remain in all but name. You don't want the UK to be able to make its own decisions about anything - under this agreement, we won't be able to.


Quote
Quote
we can decide for ourselves who stays and who comes in.
And so can the entire EU, or is that concept too difficult to grasp?


The EU wants to take in anyone from anywhere in the world who shouts "refugee!" loudly enough, without making any checks before admitting them. It then wants to tell us how many of those people we should blindly accept. You see sense in that. I don't. It also wants us to take in economic migrants who do not have the qualifications we need, when our infrastructure is crumbling and those born here can't get access to the services they need as it is.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 20 November 2018, 02:09:06 PM
I personally can't wait till they start ethnically cleansing us from Europe. It's going to be so much fun smashing things up over here.
Mtread, seriously, get a grip on reality. :lol 
This is scaremongering to the highest degree and typical bully boy tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hcmGG6VUsU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hcmGG6VUsU)



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 04:39:14 PM

Blimey, don't you Brexiteers have any funny pictures of your own?



Yes :rollin :rollin :rollin



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 05:05:43 PM
Quote
But why would you stay in a country that, having left the EU, has, by your own admission, nothing left to offer you?
You are obviously missing the irony of your statement there  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 05:57:13 PM
 
Quote
'What do we want?'......'A fourth referendum!'

You might get a second referendum, and here’s the question.
Do you wish to accept the BREXIT deal and leave the EU.OrDo you wish to cancel and article 50 and remain in the EU.
 
Quote
No one need be deported if both sides are sensible about it. Except those living in a country illegally.
Hedgetrimmer - You just don’t get it. :wall   UK nationals living abroad become as you say ‘illegal’ in the event of a NO DEAL BREXIT. 
Quote
So out of all of those that did have a vote - I wonder how many voted for brexit.
I can tell you what we voted for here in Scotland if that helps you fazersharp.  We voted overwhelmingly to REMAIN!
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 06:08:48 PM
Quote
But why would you stay in a country that, having left the EU, has, by your own admission, nothing left to offer you?
You are obviously missing the irony of your statement there  :rolleyes


Perhaps. Care to explain it to me?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 06:19:08 PM
 
Quote
The EU wants to take in anyone from anywhere in the world who shouts "refugee!" loudly enough, without making any checks before admitting them. It then wants to tell us how many of those people we should blindly accept. You see sense in that. I don't. It also wants us to take in economic migrants who do not have the qualifications we need, when our infrastructure is crumbling and those born here can't get access to the services they need as it is.

What I don’t see sense in is our wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.  What I don’t see sense in is funding Islamic fundamentalists around the world just as wee have done in Syria.  What I don’t see sense in is selling arms to sick Wahhabist nutters in Saudia Arbaia who not only use them to kill civilans in Yemen but happen to think nothing of murdering guests to their foreign consulates.


Anybody who shouts refugee indeed.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 06:26:53 PM
Mtread,
Please see my post #373
 It's the 31st of march now.  My driver tells me he's stuck in a truck park in Kent and nobody is moving.  He also mentioned something about other drivers talking about customs forms.  Meanwhile if I don't get this truck to France in the next day I'll loose my contract to one of my many European competitors.

There's also rumours all the car production lines in England are grinding to a hault.

How do I now export my goods as an external country to the EU?
Help! :eek :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 06:43:59 PM
Quote
Perhaps. Care to explain it to me?


I thought it was blindingly obvious, but :


1. You've presumably not moved to a non-EU country in the last 26 years since the Maastrict Treaty, despite hating it, but more importantly
2. It's your selfish opinion that would prevent me from living in an EU country, even if I wanted to


Assuming you get your way of course
 :b

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 06:46:52 PM

2. It's your selfish opinion that would prevent me from living in an EU country, even if I wanted to




This could be sorted if the EU had the will. It is up to us and them, no one else.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 06:55:58 PM
quote] How do I now export my goods as an external country to the EU?Help! 
1. You wait
2. You wait some more
3. Keep waiting
4. You get to the front of the queue
5. You go on the ferry /tunnel
6. The nice French Douane man tells you to wait in a queue
7. You wait some more
8. You get to the front of the queue
9. The not so nice French Douane man rummages your lorry looking for illicit foodstuffs, dangerous non EC approved stuff etc etc
10. You pay lots of duties and VAT
11. You set off
12. You get flagged down again at the Dutch border
13. Repeat 6 - 9
14. Likewise the German, Czech etc borders until you get to your destination
15. Your stuff in the lorry starts to smell real bad
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 07:00:15 PM
Quote
This could be sorted if the EU had the will. It is up to us and them, no one else.


Sorry, I thought 'No deal' was No Deal. You can't have 'The bits of the deal I want, but not the rest'


(Continues banging head on the wall)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 07:09:52 PM
 Shit.  So I’ll loose the contract cos



1.  I can’t meet their delivery terms now.  And;
2.  They’ve rejected my price adjustment cos of the taxes.  It’s simpler and now cheaper for them to buy their pumps within the EU.  I’m focced.


I’ve just lost all my EU contracts.
Plus, I’m losing UK contacts as their production lines grind to a halt.
In fact, my business is rapidly going bust.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 07:16:19 PM
Quote
This could be sorted if the EU had the will. It is up to us and them, no one else.


Sorry, I thought 'No deal' was No Deal. You can't have 'The bits of the deal I want, but not the rest'


If that's the way the EU wants it, then fine.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 07:46:14 PM
No Deal is not an option. 

It is not going to happen.
Article 50 being shredded is a more likely outcome than No Deal.
And at the end of the day the best deal is the deal we already have.
Plus it maintains the Good Friday Agreement and sees Indy Ref 2 consigned to the bin.
The referendum is not binding.  BREXIT is increasingly looking impossible (what some of us have known all along) and yup we are indeed a represntative democracy.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 07:54:29 PM
Quote
If that's the way the EU wants it, then fine.


The word 'Deal' suggests agreement between two or more parties.


I'll be sending out dictionaries for Xmas  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 08:02:51 PM
quote] Shit.  So I’ll loose the contract cos [/size]1.  I can’t meet their delivery terms now.  And;2.  They’ve rejected my price adjustment cos of the taxes.  It’s simpler and now cheaper for them to buy their pumps within the EU.  I’m focced.I’ve just lost all my EU contracts.Plus, I’m losing UK contacts as their production lines grind to a halt.In fact, my business is rapidly going bust.


O no. I've completely missed out a stage. I'd be sacked if I hadn't retired!  ;)


4a. Present your Export documentation to the UK Border Force officer to claim back duties and VAT.
4b. Wait while UKBF checks through your goods to make sure you are not overclaiming.


If it's across the Irish Land Border, there's an extra one too


4c. Step outside while somebody in a balaclava sets fire to your lorry
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 08:12:46 PM
Quote
4a. Present your Export documentation to the UK Border Force officer to claim back duties and VAT.
4b. Wait while UKBF checks through your goods to make sure you are not overclaiming.


If it's across the Irish Land Border, there's an extra one too


4c. Step outside while somebody in a balaclava sets fire to your lorry

But nobody has a clue about any of that stuff anymore.So we all need to employ people to put the system in place and do the paperwork, keep records etc etc.  That's a massive burden on industry.
Then we'll need to employ thousands of customs officers - or well maybe not as the UK will quickly go bust.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 08:44:06 PM
 Other reasons why NO DEAL is not an option are;


Aside from it destroying our economy.
Trashing our currency.
Downgrading our credit rating.


 
Well the UK will be seen as untrustworthy.  We will have been seen to walk away from our commitments.
It sends a signal to the world the UK cannot be trusted.  That the UK is a country that reneges on commitment and contract. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 08:54:01 PM
What is likely to happen next if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal but The Government wins a subsequent confidence vote?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 09:18:43 PM
Quote
If that's the way the EU wants it, then fine.


The word 'Deal' suggests agreement between two or more parties.


I'll be sending out dictionaries for Xmas  :)


You see, that's where your argument fails. No deal means that we aren't bound by EU rules anymore. Therefore, if we want to to say EU citizens living and working here can stay, we can. But we can also say that to only the ones who benefit us by being here. Or to whoever we decide we want to. That's the point of no deal that seems to be going straight over your head. We will have the sovereignty over our own land to do as we see fit, for our benefit. Then, if the EU still wants to chuck UK citizens out, we'll see (more of) their true colours.


The EU says it has things to lose by us leaving. After a no deal exit, it will then be up to them to demonstrate if they mean that, or they want nothing more to do with us. You Remainers only see the extremes of everything. Perhaps that is why the EU suits you so much. If the EU then wants to negotiate common ground in various things sensibly, i.e. they give up this idea that they can just dictate to us, then we'll see a new relationship develop.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 09:20:01 PM
What is likely to happen next if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal but The Government wins a subsequent confidence vote?.


Then it's likely that on March 29th we will leave with no deal, as the EU will refuse any further negotiations.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 09:34:39 PM
 
Quote
What is likely to happen next if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal but The Government wins a subsequent confidence vote?.

Your question is irrelevant because I cannot see how, as things stand right now, how the government could loose a vote of no -confidence.  Therefore there will not be a vote of no-confidence. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 20 November 2018, 09:40:17 PM
What is likely to happen next if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal but The Government wins a subsequent confidence vote?.


Then it's likely that on March 29th we will leave with no deal, as the EU will refuse any further negotiations.

Right no deal it is then. That's that one sorted. I'm positive we'll be fine. We had all this doomsday scenario stuff just before The Millenium didn't we and nothing happened. The EU will miss us more than we miss them :D . Well they'll miss our cash anyway :lol .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 20 November 2018, 09:49:50 PM
The EU will miss us more than we miss them :D . Well they'll miss our cash anyway :lol .


That, at the end of the day, is all they're interested in us for. Or more specifically, the financial powerhouse called London.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 20 November 2018, 09:56:59 PM
 But as I’ve pointed out there will not be a vote of no confidence.


It is likely that May’s deal will be voted down. 
Not sure what happens then.


But I think cross party emergency talks will be held, along with emergency talks with the EU.
There might be very minor adjustments to May’s deal.
If parliament fail to pass the deal again, there will be a referendum.


A No Deal option will be ruled out by parliamentary vote.


So, if, and I say if, there is s second referendum (if emergency cross party talks fail) then the question will be;


May’s deal
Or
Tear up article 50.
This second referendum will be binding.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 20 November 2018, 10:20:30 PM
 One for you VNA.
I know you're going to hate it because he refers to "Englishmen"  :lol
[size=78%]https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2413308192062759&id=129617873765147 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2413308192062759&id=129617873765147)[/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 11:29:02 PM
quote] What is likely to happen next if Parliament rejects the Brexit deal but The Government wins a subsequent confidence vote?.


Then it's likely that on March 29th we will leave with no deal, as the EU will refuse any further negotiations.


That is one option. The other is to postpone the March 29 Article 50 deadline while other options are looked at. The EU have said they might be willing to do that.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 11:39:11 PM
Quote


Blimey, don't you Brexiteers have any funny pictures of your own?




Yes   



[size=0.85em][/size]
[size=0.85em]


Glad you like that one  :) That's the 700, 000 who marched in London. The 2nd biggest march since the Iraq war one.
Not sure how many were at Nigel's 'Leave Means Leave' do in, where was it, oh yes Harrogate. Perhaps you could remind us  :lol [/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 20 November 2018, 11:50:31 PM
Quote
We had all this doomsday scenario stuff just before The Millenium didn't we and nothing happened.  [/size] .

Now from all I've read on here that is the biggest piece of bollocks I've heard.  As someone who led major projects during 5 years of preparation for the year 2000, I can tell you it was planning and effort by many thousands of people that avoided a domesday scenario.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 21 November 2018, 04:50:49 AM
https://www.facebook.com/1292186199/posts/10213279380241005/ (https://www.facebook.com/1292186199/posts/10213279380241005/)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 21 November 2018, 06:15:36 AM
Quote
We had all this doomsday scenario stuff just before The Millenium didn't we and nothing happened.  .
Now from all I've read on here that is the biggest piece of bollocks I've heard. 

I don't know whether to take that as an insult or a compliment :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 21 November 2018, 08:10:06 AM

What I don’t see sense in is our wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.  What I don’t see sense in is funding Islamic fundamentalists around the world just as wee have done in Syria.  What I don’t see sense in is selling arms to sick Wahhabist nutters in Saudia Arbaia who not only use them to kill civilans in Yemen but happen to think nothing of murdering guests to their foreign consulates.

I don't think many will disagree with you there. But all of that happened when we were IN the EU. So by wanting to stay in the EU you are voting for more of the same. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 21 November 2018, 08:20:11 AM

As someone who led major projects during 5 years of preparation for the year 2000


I couldn't interest you in coming out of retirement to lead another major one for the year 2019 could I?.


You've only got about 4 months this time though :lol .


'Your Country Needs You!' as someone once famously said. ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 21 November 2018, 09:49:18 AM
....it could be your finest h-h-h-half hour :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 21 November 2018, 08:31:40 PM
Sorry for the delay lads. I've been at the NEC bike show all day. Wanted to see the likes of Ducati, Moto Guzzi, BMW and KTM etc before they're banned from entering /can't be bothered to turn up. The good news is that their spaces are going to be taken up by Royal Enfield in our desire to go back to the 1950s and 60s :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 21 November 2018, 08:38:00 PM
Quote
I couldn't interest you in coming out of retirement to lead another major one for the year 2019 could I?.You've only got about 4 months this time though  .

Yep OK I'll do it. My fee will be £350 million a week you were going to give to the NHS (apparently). Converted to Euros of course. I don't want to be out of pocket.
Of course like most IT projects it will slip. I can't say how long, but certainly long enough to have another referendum  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 21 November 2018, 10:49:18 PM
Quote
I know you're going to hate it because he refers to "Englishmen"  :lol
[size=78%]https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2413308192062759&id=129617873765147[/size (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2413308192062759&id=129617873765147%5b/size)]
[/size]
[size=78%]
Bit of a rant from an excitable Englishman.
 [/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 21 November 2018, 10:58:39 PM
   
Quote
As someone who led major projects during 5 years of preparation for the year 2000
 
 
 
I couldn't interest you in coming out of retirement to lead another major one for the year 2019 could I?.
 
 
You've only got about 4 months this time though :lol .
 
 
'Your Country Needs You!' as someone once famously said. ;)

YamFazFan, there are only a couple of weeks left in order to get this deal in place.  Any deal has to go through due process etc.  So we are literally running out of time for the end of march.
 
 
And you need to remember this is a transitional deal, which enables a smooth transition from EU members to becoming non-members.



 
What lies ahead is years of negotiations and legal wrangling.  We are as much as any other country the architects of the EU.  Everything we do is integrated with the EU.   And it has always been a one way project. 



 
The expectation is to have a final agreement in place by 2022.  I suspect that is wildly optimistic.


 
 
And you know something, I still don’t what it is that BREXITEERS are unhappy about.  What are these dreadful laws that have been ‘forced’ upon us?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 09:25:27 AM

Quote from: mtread link=topic=24678.msg287530#msg287530 date=1542757151

[size=x-small
[/size]Not sure how many were at Nigel's 'Leave Means Leave' do in, where was it, oh yes Harrogate. Perhaps you could remind us  :lol




The venue holds 2000 and it was approximately 2 thirds full apparently.


It was part of a tour of different venues and it was ticketed. I'd like to see how many remoaners had turned up to the London march if they'd had to pay to get in :lol .


Besides which you're always going to attract more remoaners to these things. They've more of a gripe and they desperately want to reverse the democratic decision.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 09:31:38 AM
It's done that quote inserting thing again :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 10:02:32 AM
Quote
The venue holds 2000 and it was approximately 2 thirds full apparently.[/size]It was part of a tour of different venues and it was ticketed. I'd like to see how many remoaners had turned up to the London march if they'd had to pay to get in  .Besides which you're always going to attract more remoaners to these things. They've more of a gripe and they desperately want to reverse the democratic decision.



So 666 (that's ominous isn't it) didn't turn up. Or they were probably out busy setting fire to mosques or something....


PS you just need to get your brackets in the right place
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 10:18:47 AM
..... and anyway, why would somebody want to pay to hear Farage? Is he that hard up? Hasn't he got his MEP salary to look forward to... (oops forgot). Hasn't he got his party leader's salary to enjoy.... (oops forgot again)  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 10:32:05 AM

Yeah I usually get the brackets right. Mess it up sometimes when there's a pic removed in the quote or something :rolleyes .


The other bit of that reply is just plain daft. I can't respond to nonsense like that.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 10:57:35 AM
I don't know whether to take that as an insult or a compliment  
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 11:15:16 AM
OK so let's seriously analyse the current situation then.
Doesn't look like the Moggies can get the 48 letters together, so Theresa stays.
She's got to get her draft deal through the EU, then Parliament
The EU may be difficult, and Parliament even more so. The Moggies, DUP and the opposition are likely to vote against or abstain.
Apart from the Moggies they've all made clear they will not allow a 'No Deal' result.
So other options will be provided - postponement, amendments to the deal, new referendum etc. We don't know.


The deal is of course 'business as usual' for the next 2 years (or more).  Then they sort out the future arrangements which it is clear will involve some sort of permanent Customs Union with the EU. That will also come with conditions.  May is of course a Remainer after all.


So, if 'No Deal' is off the cards, and the only  choices are Draft Deal followed by Permanent Deal with more conditions, or Remain in the EU as it, what do you vote?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 11:45:55 AM

I don't know whether to take that as an insult or a compliment  


I'm not into insulting people and it's definitely not a compliment so maybe there's a third option :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 11:54:03 AM
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly? A simple yes or no will do.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Quote
[size=78%]I'm into insulting people and it's definitely not a compliment so maybe there's a third option[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size][/size]
[size=78%]
I think it's called 'ignore the bait'. It's been flying in the opposite direction for some time. [/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 12:10:34 PM
Quote
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly? A simple yes or no will do.
No, did you? So let's hear your prediction what happens now.  :pokefun
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 12:16:09 PM
Quote
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly? A simple yes or no will do.
No, did you? So let's hear your prediction what happens now.  :pokefun


As I said, a simple one-word answer would have sufficed  ;)


Why do you think you got it wrong?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 12:25:47 PM
Oops that was embarrassing :o . I missed the NOT out of  ' I'm not into insulting people'. Just modified the post. Changes the meaning somewhat lol.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 12:27:35 PM
Quote
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly?

 I did and here it is as predicted on 24th October 2014..
 
Yep --what they going do - throw us out which would save us bothering to organise a referendum which would see us leave.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 12:44:43 PM
Quote
As I said, a simple one-word answer would have sufficed  Why do you think you got it wrong?

Whereas you are not answering my question at all  :)
 I got it wrong for similar reasons Farage got it wrong. He thought Remain had won too. In fact he demanded another Referendum.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 12:47:19 PM
Quote
Oops that was embarrassing . I missed the NOT out of  ' I'm not into insulting people'.

I guessed as much  :lol
Next thing you'll know, you be putting your X in the wrong box  :b
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 12:51:25 PM
Quote
As I said, a simple one-word answer would have sufficed  Why do you think you got it wrong?

Whereas you are not answering my question at all  :) 

I didn't attempt to make a prediction.

Quote
I got it wrong for similar reasons Farage got it wrong. He thought Remain had won too. In fact he demanded another Referendum.




See, you do have something in common with Farage  :pokefun :lol


What were the reasons Farage got it wrong?


Btw, I don't much care for him either.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 01:44:10 PM

Quote
Oops that was embarrassing . I missed the NOT out of  ' I'm not into insulting people'.

I guessed as much  :lol
Next thing you'll know, you be putting your X in the wrong box  :b



It's posting on a smart phone mtread. Everything's tiny, the cursor jumps all over the place then freezes, you can't see where peoples quote brackets are, you need finger tips no bigger than match heads :'(


Or maybe it's just my phone :o


Only posting on laptop from now on. Everything works properly on that 8)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 02:06:22 PM
Quote
I didn't attempt to make a prediction.


Because?


Quote
Btw, I don't much care for him either.[/size][size=78%] [/size][size=78%][/size]
[size=78%][/size][size=78%][/size][size=78%]Seems I've got more in common with you [/size] :eek



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 02:07:35 PM
O no, I've caught some horrible [brackets] disease off YamFazFan  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 02:32:22 PM

 :rollin
O no, I've caught some horrible [brackets] disease off YamFazFan  :eek


 :rollin :rollin


I'll administer a metaphorical punch up the bracket to myself ;) :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 02:37:43 PM
Please, no punch ups on municipal property  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 02:38:19 PM
Quote
I didn't attempt to make a prediction.


Because?


I suppose because I didn't think I knew who would win.

Quote
Quote
Btw, I don't much care for him either.
Seems I've got more in common with you :eek



It's possible  :)


However:



Whereas you are not answering my question at all  :)
 



i.e why do you think Farage (and therefore yourself) predicted the outcome of the EU referendum incorrectly?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 04:37:16 PM
Please, no punch ups on municipal property  ;)
:lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 22 November 2018, 06:07:35 PM
 
Quote
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly? A simple yes or no will do.

Can I answer this one too?  Please? :D   Can I go back to 2014? :D   Remember the 2014 referendum. :)


I stayed up all night for the 2014 one.  Sure I wanted a YES result, and everybody around me thought it was in the bag but I knew it was very unlikely.   And yup early on during the night the clues started coming that all was not well.  I figured anything above 40% was a result, a victory in fact and something to take forwards.  So whilst I was disappointed, and surrounded by folks who appeared to want to top themselves, I was also pleasantly surprised by 45%, almost half the country felt the way I did.  I still think it was a stunning result.  Was a strange night.


2016?  The polls said it was safe.  But I have to say I had a bad feeling in the closing days of the campaign.  Didn’t stay up.  But I do remember again having that bad feeling as I stood in the kitchen in front of the radio, pausing, slightly scared to turn it on.  Then foc foc foc foc foc!


At least there was something positive to take from 2014. 



If the current situation is not resolved, and Scotland does not maintain continued single market access, the Scottish parliament has the justification to hold a second Indy referendum.  There is a potential majority in the parliament to do this, with or without Westminster’s permission.


But which is more import.  Binning BREXIT and continued full EU membership comes before Independence.  I do not want to see the UK economy trashed. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 06:17:48 PM
Quote
mtread, did you predict the result of the EU referendum correctly? A simple yes or no will do.

Can I answer this one too?  Please? :D   Can I go back to 2014? :D   Remember the 2014 referendum. :)


I stayed up all night for the 2014 one.  Sure I wanted a YES result, and everybody around me thought it was in the bag but I knew it was very unlikely.   And yup early on during the night the clues started coming that all was not well.  I figured anything above 40% was a result, a victory in fact and something to take forwards.  So whilst I was disappointed, and surrounded by folks who appeared to want to top themselves, I was also pleasantly surprised by 45%, almost half the country felt the way I did.  I still think it was a stunning result.  Was a strange night.


2016?  The polls said it was safe.  But I have to say I had a bad feeling in the closing days of the campaign.  Didn’t stay up.  But I do remember again having that bad feeling as I stood in the kitchen in front of the radio, pausing, slightly scared to turn it on.  Then foc foc foc foc foc!
Its all well and good predicting things on the night whilst watching the results come in, but I correctly predicted the EU vote result 2 years before it actually happened. And even before a vote was even announced.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 22 November 2018, 06:22:33 PM
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=311541259664825&id=406437063156178
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 22 November 2018, 06:37:58 PM
 
Quote
Its all well and good predicting things on the night whilst watching the results come in, but I correctly predicted the EU vote result 2 years before it actually happened. And even before a vote was even announced.
Well OK, 2014, I knew from the start it was very unlikely.  I did not expect a win.  Like I say, to me, 45% felt like something of a victory, a well earnt result.


2016.  It should have been OK.  But I always had a bad feeling.   If you like, my brain was telling me that there was nothing to worry about, but I had this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach
 
Calling it on the night before the first results come in is what counts.  Campaigns are hugely important. 



Some polls had us down at 25% in 2014.  Some in Better Together couldn't wait to get out there and start their campaign - they talked of ‘mopping up the wounded’ and consigning talk of Scottish Independence to history.  With 4 weeks to go they were shitting themselves and almost lost it.


2016, and the mainstream political players ran a similar campaign to what they ran in 2014 in Scotland.  Fear, fear, fear and more fear. They had learned nothing from 2014, and this time they lost it.


The two things that really bothered me about 2016 was the shit REMAIN campaign.  A crap campaign whilst LEAVE was left to peddle their fantasy.  At least a fantasy is positive.  That and Corbyn’s 7/10 = I mean for Focs sake. 



So you can guess 2 years out, but you can’t call it.  So yeah your guess was correct Fazersharp.

 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 06:44:48 PM
that'll be the "shit" remain campaign the gov spent millions on of our money to send a leaflet to every house to tell us to stay then mate  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 22 November 2018, 06:52:34 PM
Quote
that'll be the "shit" remain campaign the gov spent millions on of our money to send a leaflet to every house to tell us to stay then mate  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])

Yup. :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 07:00:01 PM
I honestly think that helped the "leave" vote mate, as most of us don't like being told what to do by politicians (or indeed pop stars and American presidents)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 22 November 2018, 07:39:01 PM
 I honestly think that helped the "leave" vote mate, as most of us don't like being told what to do by politicians (or indeed pop stars and American presidents)
 
Precisely.  Absolutely totally agree.   Make your campaign positive, and don’t tell people what to do.


I still personally feel there are questions to be answered in relation to the LEAVE campaign.  The definition of a lie is a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive.  An intentional untruth.  Their whole camapign was a lie.


But aside from that this was a campaign, on the part of REMAIN, that they should not have lost.  And they didn’t loose it, they just fucking threw it away. 



At this point I feel the need to go back over to “What Gets My Goat!”      AAAAAAAAAAAGH.


Still seriously, it might not happen, and it may even be almost impossible.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 07:40:25 PM
Quote
that'll be the "shit" remain campaign the gov spent millions on of our money to send a leaflet to every house to tell us to stay then mate 

Unlike one of the Leave campaigns, which illegally spent money of course
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 07:44:28 PM
tbh it wasn't tax payers money, so hey ho. I didn't pay income tax for Cameron to spend it on a campaign I didn't want or ask for. That put a lot o peoples (mine included) backs up straightaway. if they had spent it on a balanced argument, perhaps they wouldn't have lost
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 07:44:36 PM
Quote
Whereas you are not answering my question at all   
 



i.e why do you think Farage (and therefore yourself) predicted the outcome of the EU referendum incorrectly?

You can't answer a question with another question.
My question (still unanswered by anybody) is what do you think is going to happen next?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 07:48:56 PM
Quote
tbh it wasn't tax payers money, so hey ho.
Well Arron Banks won't even tell us where the £8 million came from. Strong suggestion is that it came from the Russian Government. Which is of course illegal. But that's OK then?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 07:52:50 PM
im not one for condemning on "strong suggestions". So, yes :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 08:32:15 PM
Quote
At this point I feel the need to go back over to “What Gets My Goat!”      AAAAAAAAAAAGH.
Me too. I'm getting bored with this.
As the Big Yin says 'there'll never be peace, while they're still pissing in our Bovril, and we're still shitting in their shoes'
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 08:34:58 PM
Quote
Whereas you are not answering my question at all   
 



i.e why do you think Farage (and therefore yourself) predicted the outcome of the EU referendum incorrectly?

You can't answer a question with another question.
My question (still unanswered by anybody) is what do you think is going to happen next?

Italeave and Czech-out will happen next
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 22 November 2018, 09:00:34 PM
Quote
Me too. I'm getting bored with this.


Thing is, if we don’t wise up and bin it…………


What the BREXITEERS don’t realise (the ring leaders do) is that this will go on for years.  It will probably take at least ten years to complete BREXIT.  And we have at least 3 years of trying to get a permanent position in place, and if we fail we get stuck with May’s deal, that is if she can actually get it through parliament and the Spanish don’t veto it.


So, and as you already know mtread, if we are all already bored with it, we need to all understand this is just the first two years of many many years.


And at the end of the day – it’s all about the Tory party.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 09:23:51 PM

shall we leave it now fellers?
I think weve all had enough... ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 22 November 2018, 09:26:52 PM
Yes, let's bury it.......After I've offloaded this.... :lol


My brother and Dad have both bought properties in the Romanian mountains.  The local Romanians they have met have nothing but contempt for the EU.
Since they joined everything has gone up in price affecting everyone.
Their way of life is being affected by EU bullshit and red tape so they say.
The country may well be getting a hand out but it doesn't filter down to the bottom of the food chain.


I agree with Fazersharp, us leaving will unsettle the EU as other nations will follow suit.
This is why(and it's so foccing obvious) that they are making it as difficult as possible for us to leave.
I've seen first hand how our standard of living has been eroded by cheap labour.
I've seen groups of Eastern Europeans sleeping in a camper vans outside a building site.
No bills to pay, family to support(over here at least) rent or mortgage to fork out.
No wonder they can undercut our daily rates.
One was telling me how, for €50 000 he'd built his own home in Romania.
I say home but it was more like a mansion.
When he told me what the square meterage was it was roughly 4 of my brothers house......And gardens !
This was just the building.
Don't pay tax, set up limited companies, never in one place for too long or even in the country to get nailed by the taxman.
Monies all going back home.
This is the reality, this is why I have my opinion.
Obviously, other people have different experiences leading to different opinions.
I'm just fed up with the bullshit, I'm being forced to get rid of a perfectly good car and buy  an ULEZ compliant car when the technology is there to produce any type of fuel from the atmosphere which emits no pollutants.
It's all about money and control and if the Earth stopped spinning, I'd opt to get off.  :D



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 09:40:49 PM

shall we leave it now fellers?
I think weve all had enough... ;)


Sorry ogri, we'll all stop forcing you to look at this thread now  :lol


If you want me out of it, that's simple. MONEY!  :b
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 22 November 2018, 09:55:53 PM

 :lol :lol :lol :lol
ive gone back to rowing with the old ball and chain, at least I get make up sex after that.,
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 10:13:03 PM

Well Arron Banks won't even tell us where the £8 million came from.


Have a little patience. The NCA investigation is ongoing. Don't know when they're expected to conclude, but until then we just don't know do we. I don't for sure.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 11:04:46 PM
Here is a prediction worth remembering.  :lol

  

If we are out of the EU within 2 years, or even close, I'll buy everybody a pint :-)


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 22 November 2018, 11:30:50 PM

You can't answer a question with another question.

I did answer your question. I said I didn't attempt to predict the outcome of the EU referendum. Answered your question about why I didn't, too.
Quote
My question (still unanswered by anybody) is what do you think is going to happen next?


Oh, that question. No idea.


Right, now we've got that out of the way, why do you think Farage got his prediction (and therefore you got yours) wrong?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 22 November 2018, 11:36:27 PM
Here is a prediction worth remembering.  :lol

  
If we are out of the EU within 2 years, or even close, I'll buy everybody a pint :-)
It looks like we're all going thirsty then :\ . To be fair that prediction wasn't inaccurate was it?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 22 November 2018, 11:40:01 PM
Quote
If we are out of the EU within 2 years, or even close, I'll buy everybody a pint :-)
Blimey, did I say that?  :) How long did it take you to dig that one out :)
Well it depends what we mean by 'out'. Looking at the 26 pages of waffle May released this afternoon it could mean anything.


I mean, a pint. That's nearly an armful  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 11:48:56 PM
Quote
If we are out of the EU within 2 years, or even close, I'll buy everybody a pint :-)
Blimey, did I say that?  :) How long did it take you to dig that one out :)
Well it depends what we mean by 'out'. Looking at the 26 pages of waffle May released this afternoon it could mean anything.


I mean, a pint. That's nearly an armful  ;)
FINE - I will have a waffle with my pint please
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 22 November 2018, 11:50:12 PM
Quote
Blimey, did I say that?  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url]) How long did it take you to dig that one out ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])

 I came across it when I was looking for my earliest CORRECT prediction of the brexit result, which I did in Oct 2014. But your pint promise was in 2016 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 23 November 2018, 12:06:15 AM
July 2016 in fact, which is fortunately more than 2 years ago  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 23 November 2018, 12:06:40 AM
But your pint promise was in 2016
Yes and 'within 2 years, or even close' has passed since then hasn't it?. So the prediction is accurate.

I'm still 'Leave' by the way, but I'm a stickler for these type of things :lol
...sorry 'within 2 years, or even close'. Same thing....well not the same thing...'within' isn't over is it :lol

...corrected the first sentance now, ignore the last correction :lol
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 23 November 2018, 12:19:18 AM
But your pint promise was in 2016
Yes and 'within 2 years, or even close' has passed since then hasn't it?. So the prediction is accurate.

I'm still 'Leave' by the way, but I'm a stickler for these type of things :lol
...sorry 'within 2 years, or even close'. Same thing....well not the same thing...'within' isn't over is it :lol

...corrected the first sentance now, ignore the last correction :lol
 
So am I getting my pint or not  :crazy
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 23 November 2018, 12:23:54 AM
Didn't I make it clear?. The answers no :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 23 November 2018, 06:10:03 PM
Quote
Quote from: VNA on 20 November 2018, 06:19:08 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg287505.html#msg287505[/url])<blockquote>
What I don’t see sense in is our wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.  What I don’t see sense in is funding Islamic fundamentalists around the world just as wee have done in Syria.  What I don’t see sense in is selling arms to sick Wahhabist nutters in Saudia Arbaia who not only use them to kill civilans in Yemen but happen to think nothing of murdering guests to their foreign consulates.

</blockquote>I don't think many will disagree with you there. But all of that happened when we were IN the EU. So by wanting to stay in the EU you are voting for more of the same. 

It was our parliament that voted to go into Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.  It is our government that arms murderous Wahhabist Saudi regeime.
 You may remember the American phrase “Cheese eating surrender Monkeys”
Most EU countries had the good sense to stay well clear of our Iraq and other adventures. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 23 November 2018, 06:23:18 PM
 
Quote
My brother and Dad have both bought properties in the Romanian mountains.
If there is a No Deal Brexit they may have a problem there.
 
Quote
I agree with Fazersharp, us leaving will unsettle the EU as other nations will follow suit.
It is far from clear at the moment that will be leaving, never mind any other country trying.
Quote
This is why(and it's so foccing obvious) that they are making it as difficult as possible for us to leave.
The main problem for BREXIT is the Irish border.  Their member EIRE is not surprisingly insisting that the Good Friday Agreement is respected.  The EU is simpy standing up for it’s members as surely you would expect it to.
Quote
I've seen groups of Eastern Europeans sleeping in a camper vans outside a building site.
I would agree that it has been a big mistake to allow succession countries full freedom of movement across the EU.  It was the UK’s choice not to restrict movement.
But I think we are also dealing with dodgy builders here.  Who is employing these people?  Are they following EU and UK employment laws.  I somewhat doubt it.
Quote
I'm being forced to get rid of a perfectly good car and buy  an ULEZ compliant car
ULEZ is local legislation.  It is not EU legislation.  I agree it’s targets those who can least afford to pay, but it is not EU policy.
Quote
when the technology is there to produce any type of fuel from the atmosphere which emits no pollutants.
I suspect you’d still need to buy a new motor. ;)
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 23 November 2018, 07:07:39 PM
I know full well the ULEZ is nothing to do with the EU VNA. I mentioned it as just another gripe I've got with today's hack offs.
As for buying a new motor to run this fuel. Not according to this man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb_8DJF6Hp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb_8DJF6Hp0)


As for employers following employment law. Surely you're joking, aren't you?
These people are self employed, hence not paying their fair share of tax and contributions through outlawed unbrella companies and the likes.
There was a massive plasterboard factory opened up near me a few years ago....KNAUF I think it is.
Do you know that vacancies were advertised abroad both in Europe and Eastern Europe before they were available in our local job centre.
How the fuck is this right ?
As for my Dad and Brother. What they going to do, take away their homes, refuse them entry and move the bulldozers in ?
 :rollin :rollin
This brings me back to my clip of the ITalian job.....WE can all play that game and to be honest if you honestly believe that'll happen you really have no business calling us Brexiteers gullible.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 23 November 2018, 07:35:47 PM
 Not come across that before Carbon Engineering fuel before Dazza.
It does sound interesting.
Though it takes a lot of energy to produce – electricity.
And when he talks of carbon storage – I’m far from convinced CO2 storage could ever work.  Though that's an optional extra.

There’s an article here - https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/science/this-gasoline-is-made-of-carbon-sucked-from-the-air.aspx (https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/science/this-gasoline-is-made-of-carbon-sucked-from-the-air.aspx)
It’s certainly interesting. 



One thing is for sure we are fast running out of time to stop climate change.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 23 November 2018, 09:55:19 PM
One thing is for sure we are fast running out of time to stop climate change.


Well, that's one thing it's got in common with a BREXIT deal.


Why we aren't jumping on this technology, only the authors of the Barcelona declaration knows. Anything to take away the hold Saudi Arabia has got over us has only got to be a positive thing for all our futures.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 24 November 2018, 09:14:20 PM
 
Quote
Why we aren't jumping on this technology, only the authors of the Barcelona declaration knows. Anything to take away the hold Saudi Arabia has got over us has only got to be a positive thing for all our futures.

I think such technology may be part of the solution.  One issue is how much energy does it actually take to make a gallon of fuel.  And the problem with the internal combustion engine is that it is extremely inefficient.  So I suspect the electric car will be the better long term solution, but of course infrastructure for electric cars is still pretty dire – whilst petrol stations are plentiful.


I also suspect that using this technology to reduce Co2 levels in the atmosphere – ie carbon capture – will probably remain pie in the sky. 



But meanwhile BREXIT;

Spain is now onboard.   The EU is now set to agree May’s BREXIT deal.  The deal is now set.


However, the DUP has come out and stated that they will reject the deal and vote against it.
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings, but I think it’s fair to say that May cannot get her deal through parliament.
So the question is where to now.  And bearing in mind that NO DEAL is not an option.  NO DEAL is more or less off the table.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 24 November 2018, 09:48:48 PM
Pedro Sánchez was just grand standing and paying to his domestic audience.

And I wonder how many people realise that Spain has its own "Gibralter" almost exactly the same -Ceuta (any one heard it this) its 18 miles across the sea from gibralter and is in North Africa in  Morocco who lays its own claim to it and want it back but Spain has no intention of giving it up.A case of the Spanish tomato calling the English Strawberry red, something like that.Our negotiators should just tell Spain to vamos or say "cough - Ceuta" and watch them callate.   
  
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 24 November 2018, 10:54:35 PM
Can't help thinking that an obvious solution is for the EU to offer an emendment to our membership.Something they maybe should have offered when Cameron originally came to them.Some restrictions on freedom of movement within our current membership might be enougth to satifie enougth people to bury BREXIT.
As of course we are at risk of being stuck in never ending BREXIT negotiations.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 01:04:07 PM
Why does Theresa May have to let parliament vote on her deal?. Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
Surely we should be asked whether or not to accept either May's Brexit deal or a no deal Brexit?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 01:30:50 PM
 
Quote
Why does Theresa May have to let parliament vote on her deal?
It’s because the UK is a parliamentary democracy.  All legislation has to be approved by parliament.  May has tried to by-pass parliament but the supreme court ruled against her.
Quote
Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
You mean the official opposition.  The Labour party can’t get a general election.  If there was a vote of no confidence in the government, the DUP would either vote with the Tory party or sit on the fence.  Either way Labour cannot call a general election.
 
Quote
Surely we should be asked whether or not to accept either May's Brexit deal or a no deal Brexit?.
Parliament will not accept, will not allow a no deal BREXIT.  The new saying is that any deal is better than No Deal.
As parliament is essentially log jammed, a second referendum is a possible way forward.  However, the question would be;


Do you wish to accept the governments terms for BREXIT.
Or
Do you wish to remain in the EU.


 
Bear in mind that May’s deal leaves the UK in essentially the same position as Turkey.  They have a customs agreement but they have no say in EU trading law, standards or legislation.


To sum up;


Nobody but a handful of BREXITEER nutters at Westminster think a No Deal BREXIT is a good idea.  So it is not going to happen.
You will struggle to find anybody who will state that May’s deal is a better deal than the deal we already have.
The best option is to remain.


It May now be a matter of whether the British public are willing to press the self-destruct button for a second time and reduce our standing in the world to that of Turkey.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 01:55:11 PM
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.

 
We will take back control of our borders, by putting an end to the free movement of people once and for all."Instead of an immigration system based on where a person comes from, we will build one based on the skills and talents a person has to offer.
"We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.


In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
We will be out of EU programmes that do not work in our interests: out of the Common Agricultural Policy that has failed our farmers, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy that has failed our coastal communities.
Instead, we will be able to design a system of agricultural support that works for us, and we will be an independent coastal state once again, with full control over our waters.


EU citizens who have built their lives in the United Kingdom will have their rights protected, as will UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.
"A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.
"Because our European friends will always be our allies in the fight against terrorism and organised crime, the deal will ensure that security co-operation will continue, so we can keep our people safe.
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.











Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 03:53:52 PM
So labour + Tory rebels vote down 'May's Deal' Brexit...
Then Labour + Tory rebels from the other camp vote down a 'No Deal' Brexit...
Then we have another referendum and it's the same result. Another Leave win...
And the whole thing goes round and round ad infinitum....
Parliament should just listen to their constituants and vote out >: .


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 04:02:27 PM
Quote
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.
We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.
We already have control of our money.  We vetoed the Euro.  Meanwhile we need to pay 35 billion to begin to leave.


Quote
In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
Every piece of EU legislation has been negotiated and approved by the UK.  Never at any time during our membership have we lost sovereignty.  But we will now.  Under this deal we have to continue to comply with the customs unions rules whilst having to say whatsoever in any changes to them.


As far as I am aware May’s agreement allows us to leave the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy, but the reality is that negotiations to do so will only take place once May’s deal is in place.  Remember this is an interim deal.


Quote
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.


Not whilst we are still on the customs union we won’t.  You might get there by 2022 if you are lucky. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 04:02:35 PM
Quote
Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
You mean the official opposition. 
Yeah that's them :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 04:07:12 PM
 YamFazYam, I think you would be lucky to get three dozen MP’s to vote for a No Deal BREXIT.  A no deal BREXIT would literally bring the UK economy to a grinding halt.


So therefore you will never be offered a say on NO DEAL.  Pretty much everybody is agreed now that NO DEAL is not an option.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 05:50:09 PM
So when parliament rejects May's deal we have another referendum. If the result is again Leave we have to go through it all again and again until we vote 'Remain' and parliament votes that through.
Great >: . That's democracy in action >: .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 25 November 2018, 05:54:23 PM
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.

 
We will take back control of our borders, by putting an end to the free movement of people once and for all."Instead of an immigration system based on where a person comes from, we will build one based on the skills and talents a person has to offer.
"We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.


In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
We will be out of EU programmes that do not work in our interests: out of the Common Agricultural Policy that has failed our farmers, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy that has failed our coastal communities.
Instead, we will be able to design a system of agricultural support that works for us, and we will be an independent coastal state once again, with full control over our waters.


EU citizens who have built their lives in the United Kingdom will have their rights protected, as will UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.
"A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.
"Because our European friends will always be our allies in the fight against terrorism and organised crime, the deal will ensure that security co-operation will continue, so we can keep our people safe.
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.


OOOh, yes please  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 06:32:21 PM
 
Quote
So when parliament rejects May's deal we have another referendum. If the result is again Leave we have to go through it all again and again until we vote 'Remain' and parliament votes that through.
 Great ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url]):" title="mad" class="smiley" width="16" height="16">. That's democracy in action ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url]):" title="mad" class="smiley" width="16" height="16">.

 
No that will not happen.
It possible that parliament will approve May’s deal (the transitional deal) but right now it seems unlikely.
It’s difficult to say what happens from there.


There could be further negotiation, though the EU appears to be saying very firmly that that will not be an option.


Again, pretty much everybody agrees that NO DEAL is not an option.  The EU won’t that say that right now, but the reality is though it wouldn’t hurt them anything as much as it would hurt us, they simply don’t want to go there either. 



A general election is possible but again seems very unlikely – I just can’t see it all.  Nor do I see it solving anything.  Plus the march BREXIT date would have to be suspended.  And if Labour win it is still highly unlikely the EU would enter into further negotiation.


If parliament can’t decide then a referendum is an option.   But how many times do I have to say it – NO DEAL IS NOT AN OPTION – you will be offered May’s interim deal or continued full EU membership (which all the experts agree is the best deal we can get) 
Further second referendum would have to be legally binding.  It will be final.


And don’t forget even if somehow May’s deal goes through, you are looking at many years of negotiation before you truly achieve BREXIT. 
And at the end of the day the UK can never fully leave the EU because Northern Ireland must remain as part of the single market.


The truth is BREXIT never was possible and never will be possible.  Or it is only possible with a United Ireland and an Independent Scotland.
In other words a true BREXIT would mean the end of the United Kingdom and Great Britain. 



So achieve BREXIT you need to first shoot yourself in the left foot, then do the right before finally shooting yourself point blank in the heid.
But hey, lets see what happens.  And maybe one day our government can stop doing BREXIT and return to running the country.


So what's it all about?  It's about the Tory party.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 06:52:41 PM
Further second referendum would have to be legally binding.  It will be final.

Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 07:28:49 PM
 The current deal is nothing more than an interim agreement that facilitates the beginning of negotiating a final settled agreement. 
Dominic Raab has said of the deal that he negotiated – “Well, I’m not going to advocate staying in the EU but if you just presented me terms, this deal or EU membership – we’d effectively be bound by the same rules without a control or voice over them – yes, I think this would be even worse than that”
Dominic Raab has resigned over the deal he negotiated.  That’s spectacular.
We are now on our third BREXIT secretary.
Quote
Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.
YES! 
The 2014 Independence referendum was a legally binding referendum.  Scotland voted NO so nothing happened.  But if the result was YES we would have been legally bound by the result and Scotland would by now have become an Independent nation. 
The 2016 EU referendum was a consultative referendum.  In effect the government was asking the people their position.  The result was leave.  Parliament then voted to trigger article 50.  As far as I am concerned Labour lost its bottle.  Parliament was under no legal obligation to trigger article 50.
That allowed a date to be set and a deal to be negotiated.
As we are a representative democracy, our representatives, whom we have elected to represent us, must now vote on the deal.  The supreme court has overruled May’s attempts to by pass this stage.
You cannot expect your representatives to vote through something which is clearly not in the interests of their constituents or the country as a whole.  And everybody agrees this is a shit deal.
So one possible way forward is a second referendum.  It would be May’s deal or ditch BREXIT.   Parliament will never accept NO DEAL.
Making it legally binding, would mean it has to be acted on.
In effect you are passing the parliamentary vote to the people.
It would then be up to the people to decide if they really wish to force their elected representatives to embark on mission impossible. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 25 November 2018, 07:38:39 PM
[size=0px]You cannot expect your representatives to vote through something which is clearly not in the interests of their constituents or the country as a whole.[/size]


[/size][size=0px]Thats what politicians do. All the time. Now i know youre just a wind up merchant
[/size][size=0px]

[/size]
[/size]
[/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 07:46:12 PM
 What I don’t get is what do people want from BREXIT.


OK so an end to freedom of movement and alternative arrangement to the common fisheries policy.
Irrespective of whether one agrees with these aims or not they are understandable. I get it.

 
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us.  We never lost sovereignty by joining the EU. 
The EU imposing law on us is a myth.


However, under May’s deal we now loose sovereignty.  The 27 EU countries can amend the customs union and we will have no say.  They can adjust CE standards etc and we have no say.  And so on and so on.
We have no say and no veto.
And we can never get out of it because of the NI backstop which is binding.


I genuinely do not understand why anybody would want to do this.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 07:47:45 PM
Quote
Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.
YES! 
:lol

So one possible way forward is a second referendum.  It would be May’s deal or ditch BREXIT.   Parliament will never accept NO DEAL.
Making it legally binding, would mean it has to be acted on.
In effect you are passing the parliamentary vote to the people.
It would then be up to the people to decide if they really wish to force their elected representatives to embark on mission impossible. 

But if the result of that second leagally binding referendum was 'Remain' (ditch Brexit), then surely the electorate who voted Leave in the first one will be going bonkers?!. They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
Surely no government would ever risk such a thing.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 07:58:29 PM
Just heard a replay of Mar talking to Blair and Mar said that Jo cox was killed as a result of Brexit  :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek Really !
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 08:01:17 PM
What I don’t get is what do people want from BREXIT.
OK so an end to freedom of movement and alternative arrangement to the common fisheries policy.
Irrespective of whether one agrees with these aims or not they are understandable. I get it.

FINALLY  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 08:04:28 PM
 
Quote
But if the result of that second leagally binding referendum was 'Remain' (ditch Brexit), then surely the electorate who voted Leave in the first one will be going bonkers?!. They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
 Surely no government would ever risk such a thing.


 
So the argument is that the people who voted for LEAVE can now see the deal.  When we voted in 2016 nobody had any idea of what BREXIT would look like.  The truth is we still have no idea, and in fact it’s clear that it may not be possible at all.


So parliament could now go to the people and ask them – this is what it looks like – what do you want us to do?
They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
I would hope not.  But maybe.  And anyway they will be the same people who have been blaming the EU for the actions of successive UK governments that they have elected. 



Remember this was never offered to the people for the good of the people.  And if I can quote Agricola;
Quote
That’s what politicians do. All the time.
Or rather it’s what Tory politicians are prepared to do to win an election.  They gambled the future health of the UK economy on an election.  Remember Tories exist for no other reason than to rule.


Agricola – at the end of the day – we elect them.  Wait for it…………………………………


We’ll get the government we deserve. :lol
And we might even get the BREXIT we deserve too. :eek
 

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 08:05:42 PM
Quote
FINALLY  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url])
No I've always got that.
But is that it?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 08:10:23 PM
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens next with the vote in parliament. I suppose the whips are out for this vote are they?. I don't agree with that. It's a joke. Makes a mockery of democracy.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 08:11:11 PM
Quote
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us. 
The EU imposing law on us is a myth.The 27 EU countries can amend the customs union and we will have no say. 
What is a Myth is that we actually really have any say in the EU. If we did then Camoron would of ben able to get us some concessions and there would of been no need for Brexit.But instead the EU treated him and the British people with an arrogant contempt.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 08:12:59 PM
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 08:16:05 PM
Quote
There could be further negotiation, though the EU appears to be saying very firmly that that will not be an option.
Well they would say that wouldn't they - its called negotiating 


Quote
Again, pretty much everybody agrees that NO DEAL is not an option.  The EU won’t that say that right now, but the reality is though it wouldn’t hurt them anything as much as it would hurt us, they simply don’t want to go there either. 
Er I think not getting their 39 billion under a no deal might make them wince a little 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 08:21:47 PM
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us.
You really believe that.
Im sure Grease also negotiated, im sure Italy is negotiating how to be told they must re do their budget. 
Negotiated  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 25 November 2018, 08:24:25 PM
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us.
Would love to see the evidence of this statement.
It's a fact that the EU has "imposed" over 52000 laws on us since 1990
Yep, you're definitely on a wind up
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 08:31:01 PM
They call it 'Qualified Majority Voting' don't they?.
Ie: the UK can vote against something, but still be forced to implement it because it was out voted by the other member states.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 25 November 2018, 08:42:22 PM
Quote
Im sure Grease also negotiated,
Don't think Olivia Newton John could do much negotiating in those tight trousers  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 25 November 2018, 08:49:08 PM

In other words a true BREXIT would mean the end of the United Kingdom and Great Britain. 
 
Why do you present that as a dooms day Armageddon to make an anti Brexit point and yet that is EXACTLY what you want to happen with your quest for scottish independence.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 09:06:04 PM
 
Quote
They call it 'Qualified Majority Voting' don't they?.
 Ie: the UK can vote against something, but still be forced to implement it because it was out voted by the other member states.


 
The EU operates on the principle of consensus, it makes every effort to keep every country on board with every piece of legislation.
Minor issues can be voted on after negotiation by 'Qualified Majority Voting. 
The UK can veto any legislation if it can get three other countries on board.
On key major decisions the UK can alone VETO legislation.


https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/ (https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/)






 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 10:10:45 PM
Quote
Why do you present that as a dooms day Armageddon to make an anti Brexit point and yet that is EXACTLY what you want to happen with your quest for scottish independence.   
The priority has to be full single market membership. 



Look I voted for Independence?  Why?


Because I have never voted Tory in my life.  My country hasn’t voted Tory since the 50’s  And the Tory party of the 50’s is not the Tory party we have today.  The Tory party has steadily moved to the right over many decades.


So, Scotland doesn’t vote Tory and Scotland voted decisively to remain in the EU.  In fact, only half the countries that make up the UK voted to leave.


The Scottish parliament will continue to seek and obtain powers, and some sort of settled position will eventually be reached.  That may be full Independence or eventual fiscal autonomy.


Many of us in Scotland want the government we deserve – the governments we vote for, not government imposed on us by another country.


I’m not a rose tinted, or some sort of patriotic nationalist, it’s simply a matter of building the country and the future that we vote for.  England and Scotland sadly continue to grow apart.  That’s a shame but it’s just a fact of life.


We want our country to be the best it can be.  But nor do we want to see our most important trading partner shoot itself in both feet then blow it’s heid clean aff.  How would that be good for our economy?


There are some in Scotland who see BREXIT as an opportunity for Independence.  There are some in the governing party the SNP who also think the same.  We have our equivalents of Boris, Moog, IDS, Redwood etc, but like in England they are a minority. 



So the priority in Scotland is economic, not trashing our economy and future wealth in the hope, and it is only a hope, of independence growing from the smoking remains.
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 10:19:23 PM
 
Quote
It's a fact that the EU has "imposed" over 52000 laws on us since 1990

Really!? :rolleyes
So what are these objectional laws and how do they negatively impact on us?
 
You know I sometimes wonder if the real problem is that England has never got over the loss of it’s empire.  English people are still dreaming of the days they ruled the world.  Consensus, compromise and co-operation are maybe just not the English way. :pokefun


The EU is 28 countries, with numerous languages, 28 sovereign governments, 28 legal systems,  - all trading freely and unrestricted within a single market.  It is quite an achievement. :)


Inevitably that means bureaucracy, however it is nothing like the unsurmountable bureaucracy involved in trying to trade with 28 separate markets. :(
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 November 2018, 10:24:13 PM
If the UK has such power and influence as you say over it's law making within the EU, then it won't make any difference if we come out will it :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 25 November 2018, 10:28:44 PM
1. Google it
2. Google it
3. Google it
4. Google it
5. Google it
6. Google it
7. Google it
8. Google it
9. Google it
10. Google it
I could do this 52000 or more times but would be simpler if you googled it like I did. :D
And nowhere did I say they're all objectionable and negatively impact us.
That's you adding your own slant to it to suit your agenda.
You may add the poking fun symbol but you really come across as having a problem the the English.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 25 November 2018, 10:46:28 PM
 
Quote
You may add the poking fun symbol but you really come across as having a problem the the English.

No, not at all.  I do have a problem with English politics.  It’s simple – you guys get the governments you deserve :lol – I want that opportunity too. :D
Or perhaps English folks don’t like Independent minded Scots;


Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,and like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the King.  :pokefun
 
My whole voting life has been under Tory governments.  And before you say New Labour, well it was just Maggie’s biggest achievement.
 
Quote
I could do this 52000 or more times but would be simpler if you googled it like I did. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/02/clip_image001.gif[/url])

 And nowhere did I say they're all objectionable and negatively impact us.

OK, but you surely you don’t want to leave the EU because you love it’s rules?  So what are these objectional laws – the ones you dislike and why?
Or is this all about freedom of movement, and fishing?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 25 November 2018, 11:09:03 PM
It doesn't really matter, because it's becoming clearer and clearer that there won't be a 'No Deal' Brexit. So it's either 'May's Brexit' or 'No Brexit'. Either way, we'll be bound to the EU for years to come :D

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 26 November 2018, 05:15:31 AM

No, not at all.  I do have a problem with English politics.  It’s simple – you guys get the governments you deserve :lol – I want that opportunity too. :D
Or perhaps English folks don’t like Independent minded Scots


Ok, you must get it then. We want to be in control of our own destiny, just like you do.
This is me having to explain things over and over.
Didn't you get my analogy of a toxic partner dictating to you....Of course you did so why are you still asking the same question about what Brexiteers want.
I've also previously explained that everyone, depending on their own experiences voted to leave for their own reasons.
You can imply that we are uneducated, thick, misinformed or racist but we voted out because of what we saw, felt and what was affecting us.
Do I give a fuck if the price of German cars go up.... No, even though I drive one. I'll buy Japenese or pay the extra. I really couldn't give two fucks.


 
OK, but you surely you don’t want to leave the EU because you love it’s rules?  So what are these objectional laws – the ones you dislike and why?
Or is this all about freedom of movement, and fishing?
And if you for one moment think I'm going to trawl through 52741 laws that the EU has imposed on us since 1990 you been drinking too much of that Scottish whiskey. :lol


It's quite plain and simple, and I can only speak for myself.... The EU is undemocratic, we didn't vote them in, we can't vote them out...... That, right there is the main reason I voted to leave.


My Great Grandad served in world war 1 and was wounded by machine gun in the leg. Luckily he survived.
My Grandad served in World war 2 in the desert under Monty. He never spoke about it right up to the day he died.
I'm not going to go into detail about my service because it's not important.


I don't believe in God but If I ever met up with them again after this life is over, I want to look them in the eye, knowing I didn't just vote to hand power over to the very nation they fought against for us.
There are many of us Englishmen who feel the same and will never change our minds.


I've served with Scots, proud Scots, good men, solid men. Men who were not only proud of being Scottish but we're also proud of being British.
I know this, you don't represent all Scottish.
I bet the fishermen would see you as  a Judas.


The best thing for all is that you just accept.... We had the vote, it didn't go your way, that's it,deal with it and move on.
Get behind it and let's all make the most of any opportunities that come from it.
Stop being the voice of doom and gloom.
You wanted an independent Scotland... I don't blame you but that didn't go your way either........
It's all starting to make sense now why you cant let it go...... Don't hate us, don't hate English politics, it's all corrupt, it's all a load of bollocks. We all know that and we know there's nothing we can do about it.
We all just make the best of what we've got.
What we don't want or need is the EU thinking they know best for us too.... Because they don't,they don't give a fuck either.... Look at all the riots going on in France at the moment.
All up in arms over taxation.
The influx of Moslem men sexually assaulting German women... How do you think that's going end.
Europe is a pressure cooker waiting to explode, surely you can see that.
I'm out of this thread now, it's obvious where I stand and why.
You just need to accept you didn't get the result you wanted.
If it had gone the other way, I for one would've just accepted and got on with it.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 26 November 2018, 07:16:16 AM

Perhaps the English should be given a referendum so we could become an independent country again. Scotland would not need another one then they would be on their own.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 26 November 2018, 10:11:54 AM

When there's been a referendum on the matter (Leave EU), the MP's should respect the majority view of the voters within their constituency area and vote accordingly as a formality. Why should one person make out they know better than the thousands who voted otherwise?.


I can see this whole thing ending up reversed and us being locked into the EU forever.


I'm never voting ever again in any election/referendum if that happens.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 26 November 2018, 05:26:04 PM

...yep it's started. All they're talking about on the radio now is having another referendum after they've wrecked May's deal and getting the Leave result reversed :wall
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 26 November 2018, 05:58:59 PM
Quote
VNA;     

OK, but you surely you don’t want to leave the EU because you love it’s rules?  So what are these objectional laws – the ones you dislike and why?

Quote
Dazza;
 And if you for one moment think I'm going to trawl through 52741 laws that the EU has imposed on us since 1990 you been drinking too much of that Scottish whiskey. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])
 
 
 It's quite plain and simple, and I can only speak for myself.... The EU is undemocratic, we didn't vote them in, we can't vote them out...... That, right there is the main reason I voted to leave.
 
 
 My Great Grandad served in world war 1 and was wounded by machine gun in the leg. Luckily he survived.
 My Grandad served in World war 2 in the desert under Monty. He never spoke about it right up to the day he died.
 I'm not going to go into detail about my service because it's not important.
 
 
 I don't believe in God but If I ever met up with them again after this life is over, I want to look them in the eye, knowing I didn't just vote to hand power over to the very nation they fought against for us.
 There are many of us Englishmen who feel the same and will never change our minds.
 
 
 I've served with Scots, proud Scots, good men, solid men. Men who were not only proud of being Scottish but we're also proud of being British.
 I know this, you don't represent all Scottish.
 I bet the fishermen would see you as  a Judas.
 
 
 The best thing for all is that you just accept.... We had the vote, it didn't go your way, that's it,deal with it and move on.
 Get behind it and let's all make the most of any opportunities that come from it.
 Stop being the voice of doom and gloom.
 You wanted an independent Scotland... I don't blame you but that didn't go your way either........
 It's all starting to make sense now why you cant let it go...... Don't hate us, don't hate English politics, it's all corrupt, it's all a load of bollocks. We all know that and we know there's nothing we can do about it.
 We all just make the best of what we've got.
 What we don't want or need is the EU thinking they know best for us too.... Because they don't,they don't give a fuck either.... Look at all the riots going on in France at the moment.
 All up in arms over taxation.
 The influx of Moslem men sexually assaulting German women... How do you think that's going end.
 Europe is a pressure cooker waiting to explode, surely you can see that.
 I'm out of this thread now, it's obvious where I stand and why.
 You just need to accept you didn't get the result you wanted.
 If it had gone the other way, I for one would've just accepted and got on with it.

Sae thas naw, ye didnae ken?  Thought so.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 26 November 2018, 06:18:10 PM
 
Quote
When there's been a referendum on the matter (Leave EU), the MP's should respect the majority view of the voters within their constituency area and vote accordingly as a formality. Why should one person make out they know better than the thousands who voted otherwise?.

We’ve been over that.  It was a consultative referendum.  Nobody had a clue what BREXIT would mean in reality.  We now have a proposed deal.  MP’s do not have to accept any old deal that is put before them.
 
Quote
I'm never voting ever again in any election/referendum if that happens.
Good.  More power to my vote. :D
 
Look the reality is as full members of the EU we are part of process.  We have a say in everything the EU does.  We are part of the democratic process.  Any piece of legislation can be voted down by 3 member states objecting in agreement.  And on major decisions we have a veto.  Under the EU we are a sovereign state.


This interim deal keeps us in the customs union allowing us free trade with the EU for the duration of the transition.  But it takes us out of any negotiations relating to the running of the single market and customs union, and obviously we loose our veto.  We will no longer be a sovereign state as long as we remain under May’s deal.  And of course for the pleasure of loosing our sovereignty we pay 35 billion quid :eek


We will remain locked into the customs union for ever and a day until we come up with a solution to the Irish border.  To date nobody has come up with a workable solution.  So not only do we have no say in the running of the customs union but the EU will hold us locked into it.  Hence we will no longer be a sovereign state.


Quote
I bet the fishermen would see you as  a Judas.
I think that is how many see the Prime Minister Dazza.  We will continue to abide by the common fisheries policy until such time as we can negotiate a new policy.  That is a new policy that the EU will accept.  It will ultimately be their decision not ours.


Same goes for everything else.  This is an interim deal to facilitate the real BREXIT negotiations. 



So are there any positives?  Well yes one – that is if, if, if, parliament ultimate sings this off.  Once we realise our mistake, and that is that we are no longer a sovereign nation and we are stuck in a temporary position indefinitely – we will be able to re-negotiate full membership in order to regain our sovereignty.  However our terms will have to be acceptable to the 27 existing members.



We will never achieve the deal we currently have.  May's deal is shite.






 


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 26 November 2018, 09:05:22 PM
Ok lets have another referendum but the questions HAVE to include a No Deal exit as well as May's deal or stay.I voted to leave - I didn't vote for a deal - I didn't vote to give the EU 39 billion, none of that was on the ballot paper.And there should be NO debates in the run up from either side about the the pros and cons and lies and projects of fear or buses or gov printed pamphlets. It should be based on what we have learnt over the past 18 months and witnessed.

 If a no deal leave is on the ballot paper that is what most people will vote for - my prediction. We leave - the EU does not pass go they do not collect 39Billion. We then negotiate the bits we want how ever long the politicians want to take pissing about doing it, but we do it from a position of out and holding all the cash.

 By the way has anyone seen an itemised bill from the EU for the 39 billion.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 26 November 2018, 09:39:34 PM
Quote
Ok lets have another referendum but the questions HAVE to include a No Deal exit as well as May's deal or stay.I voted to leave - I didn't vote for a deal - I didn't vote to give the EU 39 billion, none of that was on the ballot paper.And there should be NO debates in the run up from either side about the the pros and cons and lies and projects of fear or buses or gov printed pamphlets. It should be based on what we have learnt over the past 18 months and witnessed.If a no deal leave is on the ballot paper that is what most people will vote for - my prediction. We leave - the EU does not pass go they do not collect 39Billion. We then negotiate the bits we want how ever long the politicians want to take pissing about doing it, but we do it from a position of out and holding all the cash.
Has anyone seen an itemised bill from the EU for the 39 billion.
I partially agree with you.  Nobody knew what BREXIT would actually mean at the time of the referendum (though please remember the referendum is actually about the Tory party).  Now we do.  Or rather we know what the interim deal is.


As for NO DEAL, I do not think parliament would ever put that to the people.  It’s not an option.  The BREXITEERS will eventually have to accept that.


Quote
And there should be NO debates in the run up from either side about the the pros and cons and lies and projects of fear or buses or gov printed pamphlets.
You can’t do that.  It would be undemocratic.  Illegal in fact.



Quote
Has anyone seen an itemised bill from the EU for the 39 billion.
It is simply to fulfil our contractual obligations.  Remember we are fully paid up members who are in fact tearing up our contract and getting divorced.  So we have already approved and committed to expenditure, projects etc etc  before June 2016. 



And if you NO DEAL – our credit rating will be effected.  If you NO DEAL and don’t pay, our credit rating will be trashed and our reputation around the globe damaged.  Sadly we have no choice but to pay.


To be honest, we just have to sit back and see what happens at this point.  I don’t think May’s deal will be voted through parliament (I could of course be wrong) and if it does indeed not pass, well it’s just a guessing game as to what happens next.  A second referendum is just one of a number of possible options.  This is a very serious UK political crises now. 



Seriously as for NO DEAL.  It’s just not going to happen.  No idea what the bookies are offering on that, if they will even offer odds on it.  I really do genuinely think it’s that low a possibility. 



To get that you would have to elect the fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists – ie UKIP – whom I get the feeling barely exists now. :eek :) :lol   
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 26 November 2018, 10:31:53 PM
To get that you would have to elect the closet racists – ie UKIP – 
 
Whilst we are on the subject the remainers had the audacity to point at Mogs crew and call them Dads Army - all old WHITE men. Have they not seen the main Brussels bureaucrats all old WHITE men giving out their demands for quotas on migrants that countries must take, where is the diversity in the EU high command where are all the women and people of colour. I would hazard a guess that there are more people of colour in UKIP than in the corridors of Brussels.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 26 November 2018, 10:39:09 PM
Quote
Quote from: VNA on Today at 09:39:34 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg287926.html#msg287926[/url])To get that you would have to elect the closet racists – ie UKIP – 



Whoa,

Selective quoting is OK, but that's actually altering what I said. 

Focs sake don't forget the fruitcakes and loonies.
Quote
Have they not seen the main Brussels bureaucrats all old WHITE men giving out their demands for quotas on migrants that countries must take, where is the diversity in the EU high command where are all the women and people of colour.

The answer is - we elected them. :lol


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 26 November 2018, 10:57:56 PM
What we're getting now (and not just on here) is a lot of Brexiteers moaning (Bremoaning?) because they are not going to get the particular version of Brexit they wanted - to just walk away immediately, pay nothing, expect the world to come beating at our door. They assume that everybody who voted Leave wanted exactly the same as them, when clearly that wasn't the case. Many wanted an EFTA /EEA type deal 'just like Norway and Switzerland who are doing so well'. But now No Deal Brexiteers try to hijack the 52% majority vote.


Well the good news is it's not going to happen. As VNA says we don't know what's next, but that's not it.


Then of course there's the current criminal investigation of Arron Banks and the indication of illegal foreign funding. They're not going to let him off the hook.


At least all of the 48% Remainers agreed fully on what they were voting for and what they were going to get as a result.


So I'm feeling more confident by the day. This is going only in one direction.


Bollocks To Brexit  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 27 November 2018, 07:47:38 AM

I don't remember there being any talk about deals when the referendum took place, just Remain or Leave. I assumed we'd just hand in our membership card so to speak and come right out :rolleyes .


I agree, it does appear to be only going in one direction. That's the bit that worries me.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 27 November 2018, 09:34:56 AM
Quote
Brexiteers moaning (Bremoaning?)
That's rubbish it doesn't work. Bregret was a good one and worked when the remainers were trying to create a narrative that a lot of brexiteers now regret voting leave, funny that one did not catch on and they have given up on that tact. 
 
At least all of the 48% Remainers agreed fully on what they were voting for and what they were going to get as a result.

I don't think that is correct as there was a lot who did not like the EU as it was but thought that they could change the EU to their liking from within. The leavers voted leave because they knew dam well that aint going to happen. Camoron proved that when he went to the EU with his begging bowl --- they just spat in it and threw him in the Channel.These are the kind of people in charge of the EU project.I would be quite happy to go back to how it all started - as a group of trading nations, without an EU army, EU laws,integrated tax and VAT. Thank the British people that Blair/Brown dare not put forward a referendum on joining the euro cause they knew how that would end.     
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 10:01:11 AM
If you have free seamless trade in a single market, then you have to have harmonised taxation including VAT. And O yes, I do know what I'm talking about  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 10:31:32 AM
Quote
Brexiteers moaning (Bremoaning?)

That's rubbish it doesn't work.
OK 'Brexshiteers' then. That one stuck, if you excuse the pun  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 27 November 2018, 10:50:54 AM
If you have free seamless trade in a single market, then you have to have harmonised taxation including VAT. And O yes, I do know what I'm talking about  :D
I never realised that the UK had to introduce VAT in order to join and I also did not realise that 18% all that VAT we raise goes to the EU.
Well that's even better then - leave the EU fully and every item with VAT will be 20% cheaper.
So if VAT is harmonised how come its at different rates and on different products across the EU
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 27 November 2018, 11:23:33 AM

Mrs May has challenged Corbyn to a live TV Brexit debate prior to the Commons vote.


Probably be on the BBC with a studio audience full of Remainers that keep constantly booing/whooping so May can hardly get a word in and chaired by Victoria Derbyshire I expect :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 11:53:58 AM
Quote
I never realised that the UK had to introduce VAT in order to join and I also did not realise that 18% all that VAT we raise goes to the EU.Well that's even better then - leave the EU fully and every item with VAT will be 20% cheaper.So if VAT is harmonised how come its at different rates and on different products across the EU

The proportion of VAT we pay over to the EU is a major part of the 'membership fee' The so called £350 million a week '. All EU states pay the same proportional contribution. Its the way of making sure' bigger 'countries pay more than the smaller ones.
As to every item being 20% cheaper, I don't think your arithmetic quite works. Perhaps you could show your workings?  ;)
All VAT in the EU is harmonised within boundaries, plus or minus certain percentages. Also what you can charge VAT on, and what you don't. EU 6th VAT directive.
It's to ensure that when you buy (say) Yamaha parts from Germany, you pay German VAT rather than have to reclaim it and pay UK VAT as an import.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 27 November 2018, 12:27:53 PM
Quote
I never realised that the UK had to introduce VAT in order to join and I also did not realise that 18% all that VAT we raise goes to the EU.Well that's even better then - leave the EU fully and every item with VAT will be 20% cheaper.So if VAT is harmonised how come its at different rates and on different products across the EU

The proportion of VAT we pay over to the EU is a major part of the 'membership fee' The so called £350 million a week '. All EU states pay the same proportional contribution. Its the way of making sure' bigger 'countries pay more than the smaller ones.
As to every item being 20% cheaper, I don't think your arithmetic quite works. Perhaps you could show your workings?  ;)
All VAT in the EU is harmonised within boundaries, plus or minus certain percentages. Also what you can charge VAT on, and what you don't. EU 6th VAT directive.
It's to ensure that when you buy (say) Yamaha parts from Germany, you pay German VAT rather than have to reclaim it and pay UK VAT as an import.



And that sounds like a load of EU fudge doesnt. Fact is, VAT membership contributions should disappear upon leaving, so the boundary harmonised plus or minus charge it on what you like reclaim or not percentage should disappera from our tax burden :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 27 November 2018, 06:30:27 PM
 
Quote
What we're getting now (and not just on here) is a lot of Brexiteers moaning (Bremoaning?) because they are not going to get the particular version of Brexit they wanted - to just walk away immediately, pay nothing, expect the world to come beating at our door. They assume that everybody who voted Leave wanted exactly the same as them, when clearly that wasn't the case. Many wanted an EFTA /EEA type deal 'just like Norway and Switzerland who are doing so well'. But now No Deal Brexiteers try to hijack the 52% majority vote.
 
 
 Well the good news is it's not going to happen. As VNA says we don't know what's next, but that's not it.
 
 
 Then of course there's the current criminal investigation of Arron Banks and the indication of illegal foreign funding. They're not going to let him off the hook.
 
 
 At least all of the 48% Remainers agreed fully on what they were voting for and what they were going to get as a result.
 
 
 So I'm feeling more confident by the day. This is going only in one direction.
 
 
 Bollocks To Brexit  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])

 
That’s an excellent post mtread.   :)



There is another aspect that I feel the country needs to consider moving forwards.  The official LEAVE campaign portrayed BREXIT as turning the UK into a land of milk and honey.  They made out that that EU took 350 million pounds a week from the UK and that we received nothing in return.  They further stated that we could simply leave and we would then have 350 million pounds a week more to spend on the NHS.  The whole campaign was based on lies.  The people fronting this campaign openly lied.   One definition of a lie is - a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.



If currently under our legal system there is no possibility of prosecuting those who led that campaign (eg Johnston and Gove), then the question surely needs to be asked if we should review our laws in light of the BREXIT referendum and the LEAVE campaign.


As for this only going in one direction – yes I hope so for the sake of the whole UK and the future prosperity of this Union.  However I remain somewhat concerned that the main opposition, that indeed facilitated BREXIT by voting through article 50, still seems unable to decide what their next move should be.  BREXIT should already be dead and buried, but right now, though on life support, it is still breathing.  BREXIT is still a threat to the future of the United Kingdom.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 27 November 2018, 06:38:07 PM
 
Quote
I never realised that the UK had to introduce VAT in order to join
Fazersharp, VAT replaced the UK’s purchase tax.  And it was definitely a step in the right direction. 


 
Mrs May has challenged Corbyn to a live TV Brexit debate prior to the Commons vote.
YamFazFan, Yes apparently “Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have agreed to take part in a live TV debate on Brexit before MPs vote on the deal.”   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46355299 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46355299)


I presume that Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland will also be represented.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 07:15:03 PM
Quote
As to every item being 20% cheaper, I don't think your arithmetic quite works. Perhaps you could show your workings? 

Fazersharp still waiting to see your calculations, or is this just another Leave Lie?  :pokefun
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: slimwilly on 27 November 2018, 07:48:58 PM
Haha,, soon we will, gave BREXIT, March,,,bring it on then we can get our act together
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 27 November 2018, 07:54:12 PM
Quote
As to every item being 20% cheaper, I don't think your arithmetic quite works. Perhaps you could show your workings? 

Fazersharp still waiting to see your calculations, or is this just another Leave Lie?  :pokefun

Ok everything being 18% cheaper
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 08:21:36 PM
No you are still misleading everybody. It isn't 18% of the price. It is (on average) 18% of the VAT collected. So that's 18% of the (maximum) 20% of the price. Which makes things at best 3.6% cheaper. Of course we then get EU subsidies.


Is that too complicated, or just another pro Brexit lie?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 27 November 2018, 08:54:57 PM
No you are still misleading everybody. It isn't 18% of the price. It is (on average) 18% of the VAT collected. So that's 18% of the (maximum) 20% of the price. Which makes things at best 3.6% cheaper. Of course we then get EU subsidies.

Is that too complicated, or just another pro Brexit lie?
3.6% it is then.
 You mean the EU subsidies that they kindly give us from our own money that we have already paid to them, of which they decide where it has to be spent.
And that is what the bus was saying, at the moment we send the money £250million after rebates to the EU every week £350 million Gross lets fund the NHS instead all the bus was saying is getting back control so we can spend it on what we want I seriously do not believe most brexiters took the bus slogan literally.
The remainers love to think so as they can weaponise it in their arguments. They like to think the brexiteers are so stupid that they believed every word on the bus. The whole lies were said thing has been done to death its boring- both sides were guilty of it - er surprise ! -- they were politicians. I think the British public saw through all of it.       
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 27 November 2018, 10:23:31 PM
Well that's another piece of Brexit misinformation corrected then :lol
Actually I'd like to see the source of your original figure, as it doesn't match what I've seen.
If we look at some real facts https://select-statistics.co.uk/blog/much-eu-cost-uk/ it shows that the UK pays into the EU less per person than most of the major EU economies. Less than Netherlands, Belgium etc, and even less than Spain and Ireland.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 27 November 2018, 10:39:56 PM
 
Quote
The remainers love to think so as they can weaponise it in their arguments. They like to think the brexiteers are so stupid that they believed every word on the bus. The whole lies were said thing has been done to death its boring- both sides were guilty of it - er surprise ! -- they were politicians. I think the British public saw through all of it.   
This is just meaningless waffle.  Waffle because either you are avoiding, or are in fact, unable to address the substance. 

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 28 November 2018, 09:34:45 AM
Quote
The remainers love to think so as they can weaponise it in their arguments.
An interesting turn of phrase. I'll translate it as 'using real facts to prove a point'  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 09:49:04 AM

Just been listening to the Nicky Campbell phone-in show on Radio 5 Live.


It's crystal clear that the majority of Remainers have absolutely no interest or respect for democracy, just an obsession with permanently overturning the referendum result by any means possible.


They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.


It will be a very brave (stupid) government that reverses the democratic decision of over 17 million people.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 28 November 2018, 11:05:06 AM
Quote
It will be a very brave (stupid) government that reverses the democratic decision of over 17 million people.
Except presumably, with another referendum?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 28 November 2018, 11:19:52 AM
Quote
It will be a very brave (stupid) government that reverses the democratic decision of over 17 million people.
Except presumably, with another referendum?
I say bring it on - lets do it all again but there must be a no deal - revert to WTO rules as an option.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 28 November 2018, 11:29:31 AM
I'd be happy with that.


If May's deal is rejected, which it probably will be, then a referendum should be Remain as is /Leave No Deal WTO.


With the public now informed, the result should be binding.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 28 November 2018, 12:16:27 PM
Let it be as binding as the remainers want the last one to be. Or better still let just book the third Tuesday every June for an IN/OUT of the EU referendum till we get a 100% majority either way.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 12:20:28 PM

No second referendum. We voted LEAVE.


If there's a vote it should be a choice between May's Deal or No Deal.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 12:50:52 PM

I say bring it on - lets do it all again


We don't have to keep on proving that we can win.


Remain are hoping that through voter fatigue etc...they can scrape even a 1% majority and declare the matter settled forever.


They won't be calling for a best of three in that case you can rest assured of that. Same as if they'd won the first one, they wouldn't in a million years have agreed to a second.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 28 November 2018, 01:58:05 PM

No second referendum. We voted LEAVE.
If there's a vote it should be a choice between May's Deal or No Deal.

If we don't include the stay option - then when the vote is won to leave with no deal they will never give up..

Vote vote and more votes I think we should have them all the time and for everything. Forget smart meters and instead fit every home with a voting console, we can then do away with the house of commons and the lords and turn them both into hotels.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 04:44:10 PM

No second referendum. We voted LEAVE.
If there's a vote it should be a choice between May's Deal or No Deal.

If we don't include the stay option - then when the vote is won to leave with no deal they will never give up..
If the vote is won to leave with no deal in that scenario. What if it's not and they win it by the same margin that Leave won the first one?.All of a sudden it'll be a 'convincing victory' and we'll stuck in that rotten to the core institution forever.
Even if Leave won again they'll never 'give up'. They're like the worshippers of some discredited cult religion.

No we've had the referendum. Leave won. It's over. There should be no talk of another, only how we leave.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 05:38:50 PM
Quote
No second referendum. We voted LEAVE.
If there's a vote it should be a choice between May's Deal or No Deal.
Fazersharp, So clearly you accept that people didn’t really know what BREXIT was when they voted for it.
 
Quote
No we've had the referendum. Leave won. It's over. There should be no talk of another, only how we leave.

You just do not get it YamFazYam.  It may not be possible.  Right now it looks like parliament will vote down May’s deal.  If May survives that, and I think she will, she will come back for a another go, she will then exert the maximum possible pressure on the house to vote it through.  Call it project fear for Westminster – and she will pull all the stops out.  If that then fails, well we have a full-blown parliamentary crisis. 
The question is how you get out of that.
And I would suggest to you, for all the talk at the moment of NO DEAL – perhaps you should forget it.  May’s deal might get through, but parliament in the event of a looming NO DEAL will act and stop it.
And remember May’s deal means we give up our sovereignty and enter into an agreement in which we accept rules will be imposed on us by others, and further there is no way out of it without the agreement of the EU.






 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 28 November 2018, 05:47:48 PM
Quote
No second referendum. We voted LEAVE.
If there's a vote it should be a choice between May's Deal or No Deal.
Fazersharp, So clearly you accept that people didn’t really know what BREXIT was when they voted for it.
 
Not me that one -wrong quote - come back later when you have had a wee -dram or 2.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 06:52:55 PM
Fazersharp, sorry bud :o
I'm quoting you quoting YamFazFan but addressing yourself :o
Doh Doh Doh! :o
Sorry.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 28 November 2018, 07:53:49 PM
So the EU is a black hole, sucking us in ever further, from which we can never escape, no matter what the consequences for the nation

I dont swallow that. Sure, things might be tough, but weve had tough before. In my lifetime, weve rebuilt our nation, without any help from those quitters in europe, who are an ungrateful bunch of milksops, who'll be banging on our door with their hands up again when the red army comes rolling across the plains

Just sayin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 08:48:21 PM
Quote
So the EU is a black hole, sucking us in ever further, from which we can never escape, no matter what the consequences for the nation
In a word NO!
 Every expert analysis demonstrates that we will be poorer under May’s deal, and considerably poorer again under a NO DEAL scenario.
 
In other words we benefit greatly from our full membership of the EU.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 08:52:33 PM
There's more to life than just money.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 28 November 2018, 09:29:11 PM
Quote
So the EU is a black hole, sucking us in ever further, from which we can never escape, no matter what the consequences for the nation
In a word NO!
 Every expert analysis demonstrates that we will be poorer under May’s deal, and considerably poorer again under a NO DEAL scenario.
 
In other words we benefit greatly from our full membership of the EU


Thats easy to say
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
Prior to EU membership, we had a steel industry, fishing industry, agricultural industry, textile industry, footwear industry.
Prior to EU membership, if I wanted to change my job, I simply walked out of one on a Friday, and into another on the following Monday.
Prior to EU membership, food shopping meant a short walk to the town main street to buy fresh food products grown/reared within spitting distance, not from the other side of the world in refrigerated container ships.
Water, energy and transport were all under national control, with forward planning, and serving the public that owned them
If I wanted, I could walk into my doctors surgery and get to see the doc the same day
As a general rule, I could buy anything from the local high street
Harmonisation of working time directives meant that my employer could change my terms and conditions at a moments notice without my agreement, increase my hours, force me to work weekend shifts including nights at no extra pay
There was a place in the local school for every child in that catchment area
The streets were swept on a weekly basis
Petrol didn't rot my cars fuel system
Criminals were sent jail
The nation wasn't full of people addicted to online bingo#
24 hour drinking wasn't needed, you could get enough before they shut at 1030
The streets weren't covered in fast food packaging, vomit, drug paraphernalia, dog shit, homeless people
British people were tough in the face of adversity
I could walk home from the pub without fear of being battered into the A&E dept on my LOCAL hospital and spending 3 days on a trolley
My girlfriend could walk home from the pub without fear of being stalked and or molested bu someone who was living here illegally


I'm stopping here


So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 28 November 2018, 10:29:15 PM
Funny how all these predictions of the UK being this much or that much worse off have suddenly hit the headlines today. BofE for instance. And this would be the same BofE that didn't predict the 2008 financial crash?  :rolleyes
Governments own figures project for 15 years. So I guess in 1993, they should have been able to predict the 2008 financial crash too?  :rolleyes


In 15 years, I wonder if there'll even be an EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 10:38:36 PM
 
Quote
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
That’s incorrect, as I’ve pointed out before VAT replaced the purchase tax in the UK.
Quote
So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Agricola you continue to blame the EU for the policies of successive UK governments, and it appears local councils too. :eek
You were given a ball to kick, and like many others you kicked it hard.  But I’m afraid you’ve kicked the wrong ball.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 10:51:35 PM

I presume that Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland will also be represented.


And also a prominent 'Leave' conservative as both Theresa May and Corbyn were Remainers at the time of the referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 11:11:02 PM
Quote
Funny how all these predictions of the UK being this much or that much worse off have suddenly hit the headlines today. BofE for instance. And this would be the same BofE that didn't predict the 2008 financial crash?  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url])
Governments own figures project for 15 years. So I guess in 1993, they should have been able to predict the 2008 financial crash too?  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url])

 Err no.  These are financial forecasts not predictions. 
There is nothing new here.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 11:16:55 PM
Quote
And also a prominent 'Leave' conservative as both Theresa May and Corbyn were Remainers at the time of the referendum.
Boy.  That’s quite a thought.  The Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition from within her party perhaps?
The idea of such a farce sums up nicely where we find ourselves as a result of the 2016 referendum.
Perhaps it should be broadcast all across Europe so they can all wet themselves watching Great Britain make a rip roaring James Hunt of itself.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 28 November 2018, 11:41:04 PM
I suggest Jacob Rees-mogg. A well balanced debate would be good :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 11:43:01 PM
Aye, well, it is after all about the Tory party.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 28 November 2018, 11:46:44 PM
Just to make one thing clear, VAT is not an EU invention. It existed before the EU, and many Non-EU countries have also adopted VAT systems. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 28 November 2018, 11:54:15 PM
Quote
I suggest Jacob Rees-mogg. A well balanced debate would be good ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])

Yeah lets just make it a Tory debate.
The live TV Tory BREXIT debate.
Theresa May, Great Britain’s Prime Minister representing her deal, the only deal – May’s BREXIT.
For a NO DEAL BREXIT I give you multi-millionaire, hedge fund manager Jacob Rees-mogg.
For ditch article 50 and REMAIN in the EU, I give you lead No Deal BREXITEER’s Boris Johnston’s brother Jo Johnston.
Roll up roll up.  Come and watch the Tory party tear itself apart.  Roll up roll up come and see the great English fools.   Roll up roll up - lets all laugth at Great Britain. :lol 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 12:12:29 AM
Apparently the Liberal Party (12 MP's) and the Green Party (1 MP) wish to be included in the debate.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 09:35:34 AM
Or we could have the (failed 7 times) non MP bore Farage  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 29 November 2018, 09:53:11 AM
Quote
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
That’s incorrect, as I’ve pointed out before VAT replaced the purchase tax in the UK.
Quote
So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Agricola you continue to blame the EU for the policies of successive UK governments, and it appears local councils too. :eek
You were given a ball to kick, and like many others you kicked it hard.  But I’m afraid you’ve kicked the wrong ball.


So tell me how Im better off in the EU then
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 29 November 2018, 09:57:38 AM
Two items from our local news bulletins this morning. Vernon Coker MP, pleading in parliament for the govt to act on the nationwide scourge of violent (knife and gun attacks) crime, and the erection of anti terrorist barriers around the streets of the city to prevent terrorists ramming cars into pedestrians. We never had either of those before the EU
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 10:17:14 AM

Or we could have the (failed 7 times) non MP bore Farage  :lol


I've always liked Nigel Farage. He speaks a lot of sense, but I doubt he'll make it onto the panel.


If it's on Channel four or the BBC I expect it'll comprise of about 7 prominant Remainers and Mrs May.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 10:19:29 AM
Quote
We never had either of those before the EU
Are you just making this stuff up  :rolleyes
We never had 'Strictly Come Dancing' before the EU either.......
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 10:22:06 AM
Quote
If it's on Channel four or the BBC I expect it'll comprise of about 7 prominant Remainers and Mrs May.
But that's 8 prominent Remainers  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 10:53:16 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 29 November 2018, 12:37:28 PM
Quote
We never had either of those before the EU
Are you just making this stuff up  :rolleyes
We never had 'Strictly Come Dancing' before the EU either.......


Sadly not
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 29 November 2018, 01:37:51 PM
Just to make one thing clear, VAT is not an EU invention. It existed before the EU, and many Non-EU countries have also adopted VAT systems. 
Google tells me this.

  Was VAT introduced by the EU?
  VAT was originally a French idea, started in the 1950s. Britain introduced it as part of its condition of joining the European Economic Community. All countries joining the EEC had to replace their indirect taxes with the VAT.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 29 November 2018, 01:52:23 PM
Funny how all these predictions of the UK being this much or that much worse off have suddenly hit the headlines today. BofE for instance. And this would be the same BofE that didn't predict the 2008 financial crash?  :rolleyes
Governments own figures project for 15 years. So I guess in 1993, they should have been able to predict the 2008 financial crash too?  :rolleyes
In 15 years, I wonder if there'll even be an EU.
What they don't realise is that it doesn't matter because those who voted leave either didnt believe the project fear and even if they did they don't care and see it as a risk or price worth paying in the long run.   
 That is I think one of the problems with a lot of remainers - all they are worried about is their own pocket. Useless Carney with his failed forward guidance proves he knows nothing. He says house prices will fall - well that's great isn't it so people can get on the housing ladder, this house price scaremongering is clearly aimed at the older generation who have houses and just so happened to be the most leave voters. Interest rate have to rise anyway regardless of any brexit. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 29 November 2018, 01:54:37 PM
Or we could have the (failed 7 times) non MP bore Farage  :lol
Look at some utube of Sir Nigel Farage in action in the European parliament, and the way they treat him is pretty much how they feel about the UK. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 01:59:18 PM
That's when he's at his brilliant best ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 02:02:42 PM


We never had 'Strictly Come Dancing' before the EU either.......


Sadly not




What, sadly we didn't have Strictly then?!. I'd say opinion is equally divided on that subject too :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 29 November 2018, 06:27:04 PM
 
Quote
What they don't realise is that it doesn't matter because those who voted leave either didnt believe the project fear and even if they did they don't care and see it as a risk or price worth paying in the long run.   


They may yet not believe it, but it’s already happening.  The UK has the third slowest year on year GDP growth in the EU.  And the pound has slumped 14% against the Euro since the BREXIT vote.  Standard and Poor have downgraded our credit rating.  This is just basically just at the thought of BREXIT.


And if BREXITEERS don’t care about money, well what was the 350-million-pound bus about?


So where do the BREXITEERS think the money from for the NHS is going to come from with a NO DEAL BREXIT throwing us into a recession way deeper than even the financial crises of 2008?




 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: john roche on 29 November 2018, 06:29:21 PM
If there's a no deal Brexit other countries will know we're desperate for trade deals. They hold all the cards and we'll just have to accept what's on offer





Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 29 November 2018, 06:56:02 PM

the bottom line is those of us who voted to leave got shafted.
if the country and the government had held their nerve and got a good deal, it would have been fine.
but you have to hand it to the remainers (including Teresa may), they played a blinder.
Make such a piss poor jo of it all that we either come out worse or have another referendum which obviously will now go the way of remain, given that we know no one in power will fight for what we actually wanted. Add in weve been humiliated by the EU, and had two years of being slated for our racism/xenophobia/stupidity etc and its a remainers victory over democracy.
and you know what? mttreadand vna are right. I was stupid. For ever believing there was a chance the powers that be would see it through properly. oh well hey.
I for one will never vote again, nor care whos in power both here and amongst our EU overlords.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 07:34:35 PM
Quote
Quote from: mtread on 28 November 2018, 11:46:44 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288050.html#msg288050[/url])[/size]Just to make one thing clear, VAT is not an EU invention. It existed before the EU, and many Non-EU countries have also adopted VAT systems. 


Google tells me this.  Was VAT introduced by the EU?  VAT was originally a French idea, started in the 1950s. Britain introduced it as part of its condition of joining the European Economic Community. All countries joining the EEC had to replace their indirect taxes with the VAT.

I think you'll find that fits with what I said, except I didn't have to Google it  ;)
Yes all EU states have to have a VAT, and it has to be within a set of limits. That's to ensure frictionless trade between member states. As I said before, that's why it's easy to buy Yamaha parts from Germany.
The VAT method is acknowledged as an efficient (believe it or not) way of taxing consumption. It's used all over the world, including countries like Mongolia. As far as I'm aware they are not in the EU....
If anybody says that by leaving the EU we will be cancelling VAT, they are talking bollocks.
VAT accounts for nearly a fifth of all UK government revenues. Far more than Purchase Tax ever did. If we didn't have VAT, the tax would be collected in some other way. Or they could just go on cutting the NHS, Police, Defense etc etc
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 07:40:40 PM
Quote
Or we could have the (failed 7 times) non MP bore Farage   


Look at some utube of Sir Nigel Farage in action in the European parliament, and the way they treat him is pretty much how they feel about the UK.
Farage hardly ever turns up. He has one of the worst attendance records (Google it) ;)
When he is there, it's just to grandstand for the cameras and to get on YouTube.
Yet Europe (we) still pays the useless lump.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 29 November 2018, 07:48:52 PM
 
Quote
the bottom line is those of us who voted to leave got shafted.
 if the country and the government had held their nerve and got a good deal, it would have been fine.
 but you have to hand it to the remainers (including Teresa may), they played a blinder.
 Make such a piss poor jo of it all that we either come out worse or have another referendum which obviously will now go the way of remain, given that we know no one in power will fight for what we actually wanted. Add in weve been humiliated by the EU, and had two years of being slated for our racism/xenophobia/stupidity etc and its a remainers victory over democracy.
 and you know what? mttreadand vna are right. I was stupid. For ever believing there was a chance the powers that be would see it through properly. oh well hey.
 I for one will never vote again, nor care whos in power both here and amongst our EU overlords.

Naw Ogri.  You were unwittingly voting to be shafted.


The EU currently represents 25% of global GDP.  And guess what it is right on our door step.  Further it is one single free trading market.  Currently as full members we have full unrestricted access to that market.


What BREXIT aims to do is to make it harder, more difficult and also more expensive to access that massive market.


Trade deals are about countries moving closer together in order to increase trade by making the flow of goods easier and simpler.


BREXIT is the opposite of a normal trade deal.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 29 November 2018, 07:58:44 PM
Quote
. Useless Carney with his failed forward guidance proves he knows nothing
You mean Mark Carney who graduated from Harvard with a degree with high honours in economics, before postgraduate studies at Oxford where he received masters and doctoral degrees. Then of course Goldman Sachs and the Bank of Canada before his current job.
Where are the Leave 'experts'  coming up with convincing forecasts and figures? I certainly haven't seen any. Although I do believe Farage has a handful of O levels.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 09:17:07 PM

the bottom line is those of us who voted to leave got shafted.
if the country and the government had held their nerve and got a good deal, it would have been fine.
but you have to hand it to the remainers (including Teresa may), they played a blinder.
Make such a piss poor jo of it all that we either come out worse or have another referendum which obviously will now go the way of remain, given that we know no one in power will fight for what we actually wanted. Add in weve been humiliated by the EU, and had two years of being slated for our racism/xenophobia/stupidity etc and its a remainers victory over democracy.
and you know what? mttreadand vna are right. I was stupid. For ever believing there was a chance the powers that be would see it through properly. oh well hey.
I for one will never vote again, nor care whos in power both here and amongst our EU overlords.
Keep your chin up. I had a little wobble a couple of weeks ago, but I got over it thank goodness. Although in my defence I had imbibed a few too many light ales at the time ;) .
I admit the situation doesn't look good, but it's not all over yet, as much as they'd like it to be.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 29 November 2018, 09:40:57 PM
VNA you must be so conflicted because on one hand you are using brexit as a leverage tool to back up your fight for scotish independence, so if we brexit you can carry on using the "England dragging scotland out of the EU" chestnut. Yet you are backing remain and if you win that one then you put yourself one more step away from scottish independence.   
No wonder you are Virtually Nearly always Angry.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 29 November 2018, 09:41:09 PM
Quote
Keep your chin up. I had a little wobble a couple of weeks ago, but I got over it thank goodness. Although in my defence I had imbibed a few too many light ales at the time ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/wink.gif[/url]) .
I admit the situation doesn't look good, but it's not all over yet, as much as they'd like it to be.

 Indeed the situation looks pretty grim.  Though there is a possibility of the UK returning to service as normal, and therefore continuing it’s frictionless free trade with the biggest single free market in the world, the threat of BREXIT still looms.


May’s deal means the UK will no longer be a sovereign state, and growth and the performance of our economy will be slower than as a full EU member.


A NO DEAL, will in effect be worse than the 2008 financial crash and subsequent recession of which we are only just now putting being us.
We’ve already had one lost economic decade, a NO DEAL could easily lead to three lost decades. 
With the pound crashing you could potentially see the cost of motorcycle such as Yamaha’s MT10, £9999.00 before the BREXT referendum, easily end up costing 14 or 15K.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 29 November 2018, 09:47:54 PM
Fazersharp, sorry bud :o
I'm quoting you quoting YamFazFan but addressing yourself :o
Doh Doh Doh! :o
Sorry.

That's alright I understand. I know that after a day managing the lairds estate that you cant wait to come home to your croft to a wee dram and a log fire and rip into the forum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 09:49:24 PM
With the pound crashing you could potentially see the cost of motorcycle such as Yamaha’s MT10, £9999.00 before the BREXT referendum, easily end up costing 14 or 15K.
I don't want an MT10. I want to buy a big two-stroke like we had in the good old days 8) .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 29 November 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Quote
VNA you must be so conflicted because on one hand you are using brexit as a leverage tool to back up your fight for scotish independence, so if we brexit you can carry on using the "England dragging scotland out of the EU" chestnut. Yet you are backing remain and if you win that one then you put yourself one more step away from scottish independence.   
No wonder you are Virtually Nearly always Angry.
Fazersharp,

 The priority is to REMAIN in the EU.  If there is a second referendum, I will be voting to tear up article 50.  Sadly, yes this will solve the current sore of major material change, and means that it will be very difficult indeed for Scotland to continue to insist on a second Scottish Independence Referendum at this time.


As a famous former American president once said – It’s the economy stupid.


Quote
No wonder you are Virtually Nearly always Angry.
Please if you wish to address me in full, it’s Very Nasty Andy :evil   I abbreviated it when the forum moved from YUKU to it’s current host.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 November 2018, 10:04:41 PM
Believe it or not YamFazFan actually stands for...YouAintMakingFolkAveZestForAnotherrefereNdum ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 29 November 2018, 11:24:09 PM
Quote
. Useless Carney with his failed forward guidance proves he knows nothing
You mean Mark Carney who graduated from Harvard with a degree with high honours in economics, before postgraduate studies at Oxford where he received masters and doctoral degrees. Then of course Goldman Sachs and the Bank of Canada before his current job.
Where are the Leave 'experts'  coming up with convincing forecasts and figures?


Pfft. The world has lost count of how many times he has u-turned on his forecasts.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 12:39:12 AM
So........ where's the Leave experts and their forecasts then?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 30 November 2018, 10:09:22 AM

Why would Leave need to be making any forecasts?. They won the referendum and we should be getting on with honouring that.


I can fully understand why Remain are engaging in 'Project Fear #2'. They're desperate to stop Brexit and overturn the democratic result because it didn't go their way.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 30 November 2018, 12:36:36 PM
So........ where's the Leave experts and their forecasts then?



Forecasts and predictions are for Remainers who have nothing better to do. Leavers just want to get out and get on with running our country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 30 November 2018, 01:26:00 PM
Mark Carn-do-maths has quietly shelved his "forward guidance" briefs.Here is a list of words used by Carn-do and his side kicks in his news conference.
 Probability
Possibility
Likely
Assumption
Balance
Suggest
Forecast
Potential
Deviation
Dynamic
Could
Path
Scenario
Differing
Judge
Case study
Concrete
Think
Eventual
Adjustment
Leverage
Determination
adjustment
Path

All you have to do to be an economist is to always use these words - preferably all of them and you can talk for 30 mins without actually saying anything at all. Its like listening to a charlatan clairvoyant asking vague questions until they hit on something.  I have zero respect for economists especially when the BBC interview that convicted jailed fraudster Viki. 


 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 01:54:52 PM
He's got a doctorate in Economics for christsake. They don't dish those out for nothing.


There are no Leave forecasts because they know the results are very bad. Either that or they have trouble with 2+2. So they just criticise to deflect the truth.


Here's part of Carney's entry from Wikipedia. I suppose that's all lies too?  :b



''The epoch-making feature of his tenure as Governor of the Bank of Canada remains the decision to cut the overnight rate by 50 basis points in March 2008, only one month after his appointment. While the European Central Bank delivered a rate increase in July 2008, Carney anticipated the leveraged-loan crisis would trigger global contagion. When policy rates in Canada hit the effective lower-bound, the central bank combatted the crisis with the non-standard monetary tool: "conditional commitment" in April 2009 to hold the policy rate for at least one year, in a boost to domestic credit conditions and market confidence. Output and employment began to recover from mid-2009, in part thanks to monetary stimulus. The Canadian economy outperformed those of its G7 peers during the crisis, and Canada was the first G7 nation to have both its GDP and employment recover to pre-crisis level''

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 30 November 2018, 02:12:02 PM
Sounds just like when Gordon Brown took all the credit for the boom times.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 30 November 2018, 02:24:16 PM

There are no Leave forecasts because they know the results are very bad. Either that or they have trouble with 2+2. So they just criticise to deflect the truth.

If you listen to his news conference this week he doesn't say anything good or bad, the words I have posted are all from that conference, and- just like all economist speak they are  careful so they never say anything definite - just like a clairvoyant bulshitting giving vague responses that can cover everything.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 30 November 2018, 02:34:01 PM
He's got a doctorate in Economics for christsake. They don't dish those out for nothing.


There are no Leave forecasts because they know the results are very bad. Either that or they have trouble with 2+2. So they just criticise to deflect the truth.


Here's part of Carney's entry from Wikipedia. I suppose that's all lies too?  :b



''The epoch-making feature of his tenure as Governor of the Bank of Canada remains the decision to cut the overnight rate by 50 basis points in March 2008, only one month after his appointment. While the European Central Bank delivered a rate increase in July 2008, Carney anticipated the leveraged-loan crisis would trigger global contagion. When policy rates in Canada hit the effective lower-bound, the central bank combatted the crisis with the non-standard monetary tool: "conditional commitment" in April 2009 to hold the policy rate for at least one year, in a boost to domestic credit conditions and market confidence. Output and employment began to recover from mid-2009, in part thanks to monetary stimulus. The Canadian economy outperformed those of its G7 peers during the crisis, and Canada was the first G7 nation to have both its GDP and employment recover to pre-crisis level''


Even a broken clock is right twice a day  ;)


His average however isn't very good. Not least his forecast of instant disaster immediately following the referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 30 November 2018, 02:38:45 PM
He's got a doctorate in Economics for christsake. They don't dish those out for nothing.


There are no Leave forecasts because they know the results are very bad. Either that or they have trouble with 2+2. So they just criticise to deflect the truth.


Here's part of Carney's entry from Wikipedia. I suppose that's all lies too?  :b



''The epoch-making feature of his tenure as Governor of the Bank of Canada remains the decision to cut the overnight rate by 50 basis points in March 2008, only one month after his appointment. While the European Central Bank delivered a rate increase in July 2008, Carney anticipated the leveraged-loan crisis would trigger global contagion. When policy rates in Canada hit the effective lower-bound, the central bank combatted the crisis with the non-standard monetary tool: "conditional commitment" in April 2009 to hold the policy rate for at least one year, in a boost to domestic credit conditions and market confidence. Output and employment began to recover from mid-2009, in part thanks to monetary stimulus. The Canadian economy outperformed those of its G7 peers during the crisis, and Canada was the first G7 nation to have both its GDP and employment recover to pre-crisis level''


Even a broken clock is right twice a day  ;)


His average however isn't very good. Not least his forecast of instant disaster immediately following the referendum.
He said what he was told to just like Obama who gave the game away by saying "the UK would be back of the queue" - when an American would not say queue - they would of said "line". Scripted and written for him and not off the cuff.       
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 02:46:08 PM
Quote
His average however isn't very good. Not least his forecast of instant disaster immediately following the referendum.

What you mean the £ isn't at a 31 year low against the $ ! Thank goodness :rolleyes


Here's the Bank of England 's forecast he was referring to. The news is Bad, Very Bad or Crisis. Stop pretending otherwise.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 30 November 2018, 02:58:21 PM
Quote
His average however isn't very good. Not least his forecast of instant disaster immediately following the referendum.

What you mean the £ isn't at a 31 year low against the $ ! Thank goodness :rolleyes


Here's the Bank of England 's forecast he was referring to. The news is Bad, Very Bad or Crisis. Stop pretending otherwise.


And there they are all in that BBC picture, 5 of the words that I said they always use.
   Could
forecast
 think
 scenarios
 Different

 Plus one more that I did not list because they did not use it in the conference but it is one that they also always use "trend"
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 04:43:29 PM
But you've also missed out


Fall
Disruptive
Disorderly


Plus some lines


Still waiting for the positive Leave forecasts that suggest this is all wrong  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 30 November 2018, 05:41:19 PM



Still waiting for the positive Leave forecasts that suggest this is all wrong  :rolleyes


Forecasts and predictions are for Remainers who have nothing better to do. Leavers just want to get out and get on with running our country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 06:10:30 PM
Quote
His average however isn't very good. Not least his forecast of instant disaster immediately following the referendum.
His forecast before the referendum for a LEAVE result was rougthly increased risk of a technical recession, a significant drop in the value of the pound and an increase in inflation.
So his forecast turned out to be correct.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 06:13:32 PM
Quote
So........ where's the Leave experts and their forecasts then?
Johnston and Gove.  They painted it on the side of a bus.  Since proven to be a lie.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 30 November 2018, 07:51:37 PM
So........ where's the Leave experts and their forecasts then?
Here's one for you to trash  :D
Fuck, was trying to stay out of this bullshit  :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 08:02:40 PM
From the London School of economics,  http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/#Author (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/#Author)

Method a la Minford
There are basically two steps in Minford’s analysis. First, he assumes that feed from EU trade protectionism, prices paid by UK consumers for manufacturing and agricultural goods would fall by 10 per cent under ‘Britain Alone’. Second, he feeds this fall in trade costs into his ‘Liverpool model’ to come up with a GDP increase of 4 per cent.
The 10 per cent number does not come from looking at the actual level of tariffs, which are only around 3 per cent. Rather, it comes from looking at the differences in guesstimated producer price levels between the UK and some other countries using data that is 14 years out of date, and arguing that these higher prices are entirely due to EU trade barriers.
This is really far-fetched. Cross-country price differences are due to a number of factors, particularly different tastes and quality. For example, say Europeans put a higher premium on high-quality clothing compared with Americans. It will look like Europeans are paying more for their clothes, but in reality, the higher average prices simply reflect a different mix of purchases (Deaton, 2014). He ends up comparing apples with a bunch of Boris Johnson shaped bananas across countries.
Minford misunderstands the nature of regulations and product standards. The idea of the Single Market is to have common rules so that a product sold in one EU country can also be sold in any other. If there are 28 different sets of rules governing the sale of a good, it will be harder to sell these products across all EU countries. Minford sees the harmonisation of regulations as a pernicious plot by vested interests to raise prices. But playing by a common set of rules is what has helped increase trade and competition in the Single Market.
It is true that tougher European standards for product safety and quality keep out some trade. For example, if after Brexit the UK reduced the levels of safety in children’s toys to those sold in the Chinese mainland, the average price of children’s toys would surely fall. But this is because the safety standards would deteriorate – quality adjusted prices would not change much. It is hard to believe that parents would welcome this kind of saving.
How Minford defies the laws of gravityTrade flows between nations increase as the economic size and average wealth of each country’s grows, and decrease with rising costs of trade between them caused by import tariffs, transport costs and other trade barriers. This is an empirical regularity called the ‘gravity’ relationship and it is the statistical bedrock of modern trade models.
Minford uses a 1970s style trade model in which all firms in an industry everywhere in the world produce the same goods and competition is perfect. There is no product differentiation – a German-made car is identical to a Chinese-made car. Importantly, trade does not follow the gravity equation – everyone simply buys from the lowest cost producer.
As a consequence, after Brexit, the UK does not care about the tariff barriers exporters face in accessing the EU Single Market as they can sell as much as they like anywhere in the world. The fact that France is closer than Fiji essentially makes no difference in the Minford world: there is just one fictional world market into which all goods can be effortlessly sold.
If this sounds crazy, that’s because it is crazy. In reality, the UK will still continue to trade extensively with the EU as our closest geographical neighbours. It’s just that the higher trade barriers mean that we will do less of it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 08:04:47 PM
When assesing Minford view you may wish to pay particular attention to;
Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.
As I have said all along, it's us ordinary people that will pay the price of BREXIT.  And as we have seen some already have.
BREXIT is bonkers.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 09:45:12 PM
Quote
Forecasts and predictions are for Remainers who have nothing better to do. Leavers just want to get out and get on with running our country.
Leavers don't do forecasts and predictions because they believe 'getting back control' means we should all pay for it with more austerity.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Hedgetrimmer on 30 November 2018, 10:14:27 PM


Leavers don't do forecasts and predictions because they believe 'getting back control' means we should all pay for it with more austerity.

Leavers just want to get out and get on with running our country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 10:29:38 PM
Quote
Quote from: mtread on Today at 09:45:12 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288167.html#msg288167[/url])<blockquote>
Leavers don't do forecasts and predictions because they believe 'getting back control' means we should all pay for it with more austerity.
</blockquote>
Quote from: Hedgetrimmer on Today at 12:36:36 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288128.html#msg288128[/url])Leavers just want to get out and get on with running our country.


Quote
Quote<blockquote>Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.</blockquote>
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 30 November 2018, 10:34:32 PM
 There is another factor that Minford ignores.  Whilst he (wrongly LSE says) dismisses the importance of trading with your nearest partners, he ignores the increasing importance of trading with your nearest partners that an increasing awareness of global warming will bring.
 
Inevitably in the near future there will be a global move to reduce unnecessary transport and in particular the unnecessary transportation of goods.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 30 November 2018, 11:36:51 PM
Anyway..... There won't be a 'No Deal Brexit'. From the end of March we'll remain aligned with the EU in some deal. Taking their instructions, paying our contribution. To borrow a phrase from elsewhere, 'You've lost, get over it'  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 12:27:17 AM
 I just hope that, that deal is a temporary suspension of the march deadline.  A suspension of the deadline that will allow for article 50 eventually to be revoked.


Do you really want to follow the best minority economic view of Professor Patrick Minford, who chairs and leads the Eurosceptic Economists for Free Trade who advocated a NO DEAL BEXIT;


Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.
Do you feel like you'll be a winner in a NO DEAL BREXIT?   

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 01 December 2018, 08:34:35 AM
So you're better informed, more independant minded and a greater expert on these matters than this Minford bloke? :rolleyes .



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: nedworthy on 01 December 2018, 08:57:45 AM
You can’t assume Minford is impartial, as. Prof of Economics it is more than likely he has a philosophical angle , just like Keynes did and most others do. So his independence , and therefore information should be viewed in that light.. You might also question his analysis in relation to where his research funding comes  from - this is the BAT approach of giving researchers millions of pounds to ‘prove’ tobacco doesn’t cause cancer 🤣.
Never ever underestimate the Tory parties ability to connive, manipulate and cut deals to stay in power .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 01 December 2018, 11:06:18 AM
You can’t assume Minford is impartial
....or that VNA is impartial.
Never ever underestimate the Tory parties ability to connive, manipulate and cut deals to stay in power .
....or Corbyn's ability to do so in order to get in power.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 12:10:02 PM
Quote
So you're better informed, more independant minded and a greater expert on these matters than this Minford bloke? ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url]) .

Ah I see nobody is allowed an opinion other than YamFazFan. :eek
 There are fundamental areas where I disagree with Minford.  For example why you would walk away from the EU single market (and it is a single market – it trades internally almost as one country) when it represents 25% of global GDP.  The argument is you do so in order to make independent deals with the remaining 75% of GDP.  But it’s spread across 168 countries right round the globe.  That's a shit load of Bureaucracy.



Another fundamental disagreement I have is…..  Well hopefully some day well get over BREXIT, because there is a far bigger global problem which makes squabbles over BREXIT seem somewhat insignificant, and that’s Global Warming.  We need to reduce or cease unenvironmentally friendly global trade.  For example, why is there New Zealand lamb in my supermarket, when sheep farming is a major industry in Scotland.  Exporting our lamb whilst importing New Zealand lamb is environmentally stupid – it’s big CO2 emissions for no gain.



Finally even if Minford is right about the UK becoming richer in a NO DEAL scenario, he agrees with those of us who wish to protect our manufacturing jobs (say for example Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mini, Jaguar etc in the automotive industry) whom may walk in the event of a NO DEAL (remember they have had a personal reassurance from the PM that this will not happen).  Minford states that UK manufacturing will be eliminated.


So you have to ask yourself, is a Minford NO DEAL BREXIT really what you want.


So tell me YamFazFan do you want to see UK manufacturing eliminated? 

 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 01 December 2018, 01:08:58 PM
Quote
So you're better informed, more independant minded and a greater expert on these matters than this Minford bloke? ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url]) .

Ah I see nobody is allowed an opinion other than YamFazFan. :eek

My apologies, I didn't realise it was just opinion and not fact. You sounded like you categorically knew better than him ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 01:19:04 PM
We as ordinary punters read or listen to the experts then make up our minds.  We make up our minds as to which expert makes the most sense. 

From the London School of Economics - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/#Author (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/#Author)

Quote
Summing up
Alternative economic models have different advantages and drawbacks and are suited for different purposes. Unfortunately, Minford’s model is inconsistent with two basic facts about international trade: first, that trade satisfies the gravity equation; and second, that the EU has been trade-creating, not simply a tool for trade diversion.
This implies that the model will give very unreliable predictions of the consequences of Brexit for trade and living standards. When we analyse the same scenario considered by Minford using a more realistic assessment of how UK ‘unilateral trade liberalisation’ could actually work, we find (alongside just about everyone else) that Brexit still leads to a decline in UK living standards.
Minford’s ‘Liverpool model’ with its 1970s vintage of perfect markets everywhere has a bad track record when it comes to policy analysis. For example, in 1997 the model ([url]http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo971203/debtext/71203-39.htm[/url]) predicted that the proposed national minimum wage would mean millions more unemployed. Subsequent evaluations of the minimum wage have shown that the actual effect was rather less – zero, in fact (Metcalf ([url]http://hussonet.free.fr/dp0781.pdf[/url]), 2008).
Like the other 1970s hit, we Won’t Get Fooled Again.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 01:24:56 PM
 Remaining in the EU will kick the SNP and others call for a second Independence referendum into the long grass.


The Tories have been accusing Nicola Sturgeon of playing BREXIT for a second referendum.


Yet in the last week or so the SNP have come out and backed the so called ‘People’s Vote’. 



So ask yourself why would they do this?


And can I come back to the one thing I think Minford is absolutely right about;


Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.


So tell me YamFazFan do you want to see UK manufacturing eliminated?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 01 December 2018, 02:12:51 PM



And can I come back to the one thing I think Minford is absolutely right about;


Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.

I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 01 December 2018, 02:15:11 PM
Keep thinking Mitford, as in the sisters :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 02:23:22 PM
It's not just Minford though is it.
Listen to Tim Martin and take a look what he's already done in his chain of Wetherspoons..
He's stopped selling European beers and wines and his prices have come down.
If we all made a conscious effort to boycott European goods, buy British where possible.
Be seen to putting public spaces and parts of gardens aside for allotment to grow our own it would send a clear message to the Facists they we are serious about BREXIT and preparing for a no deal.
That way we may get them back to the negotiating table.
It's called calling their bluff and preparing for every scenario.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpoliticaluk.co.uk%2F2018%2F11%2Fwhetherspoons-boss-wins-support-from-audience-as-he-lists-no-deal-brexit-benefits%2F&h=AT2qdkG5Ho0S9aISUQERw66HEbb84saWyRMp2Y5nMNdwol5vTx5Dm3iVWOIX2ajh6GIVTYXOSJ0JaelOMouwLdJM9mtpoLvfoNxqB9jwpMcapLtsXWnXnM8irj4&s=1
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 01 December 2018, 03:24:29 PM
Quote
He's stopped selling European beers and wines and his prices have come down.
No he hasn't and no they haven't. I think he's still selling some Guinness, and I wonder where that's brewed? He's replaced some beers and wines with inferior products  :b
I'd check the term 'fascist' in the dictionary if I were you.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 03:40:23 PM
Quote
Be seen to putting public spaces and parts of gardens aside for allotment to grow our own it
Aye sadly it could come to that.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 03:42:16 PM
Quote
He's stopped selling European beers and wines and his prices have come down.
So what do you think will happen to his prices when the pound is worth 80p to the dollar?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 01 December 2018, 05:22:24 PM
So what do you think will happen to his prices when the pound is worth 80p to the dollar?

Lets see where you have the proof for that one then. - Or it it another remain goblin, to coin a phrase about unicorns thrown at leavers.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 05:39:39 PM
[[size=78%]quote author=mtread link=topic=24678.msg288203#msg288203 date=1543677869][/size]

Quote
He's stopped selling European beers and wines and his prices have come down.
[size=78%]No he hasn't and no they haven't. I think he's still selling some Guinness, and I wonder where that's brewed? He's replaced some beers and wines with inferior products  :b  I'd check the term 'fascist' in the dictionary if I were you.


Sorry, didn't realise you were a beer and wine quality expert too  :b
Some of our wines and beers are on par with what is produced in Europe and is considered to be some of the best in the world.
The wine I make is better, stronger and tastier than all that EU crap....FACT.....hic  :lol


With conditions and soil in the south east suiting the vineyards which are sprouting up all over the place.
But your missing the point.... It's about becoming as self sufficient as possible and sending the message to the protectionism racket that is the EU.
Their bullies and you stand up to bullies.
My sisters run a living museum with a house that has been decorated and furnished in the 1940's era.
They run open days with re-enactors and educate the local children about the world wars with school visits.
The garden has a large area, next to the Anderson shelter, set aside as allotment growing fresh fruit and veg all year round.
Don't you remember the saying"Dig for victory" sadly we are in danger of losing this British bulldog spirit of getting on with it. Something which the Brexiteers have not.
Again it's about sending the message across.
All these so called experts have their own agenda otherwise they'd all be saying the same but their not.
It's about how you see things and who you chose to believe (if any).
That's why it's been so devicive


And if you want to mislead people about Wetherspoons policy they should read this
Just because it may be lesser well known and British doesn't mean it's inferior quality, that's just trash talk.




https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/wetherspoon-pubs-to-stop-selling-eu-produced-drinks-in-run-up-to-brexit-37008191.html (https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/wetherspoon-pubs-to-stop-selling-eu-produced-drinks-in-run-up-to-brexit-37008191.html)

[/size]
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 01 December 2018, 05:59:28 PM
Quote
But your missing the point....
No I'm not. I'm correcting what you said. He's not replacing ALL European beers and wines, just a few.
As for being an 'expert', I think I was brewing beer and making wine while you were still in short trousers :b


And as for replacing Champagne. Who on earth would buy Champagne in a Wetherspoons  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 01 December 2018, 06:07:56 PM
Having said that, we in the UK make some of the best beer in the world. But so do the Belgians and the Germans. I'd just like to have a choice.


As for 'Digging for Victory' I hope you like swedes and turnips  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 06:18:18 PM
Quote
Wetherspoon has four pubs in suburban Dublin and one in Cork.
:lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 06:18:57 PM
Quote
It also has two undeveloped sites in Carlow and Waterford and plans to purchase more sites around Ireland.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 06:51:53 PM


Quote
But your missing the point....
No I'm not. I'm correcting what you said. He's not replacing ALL European beers and wines, just a few.
As for being an 'expert', I think I was brewing beer and making wine while you were still in short trousers :b


And as for replacing Champagne. Who on earth would buy Champagne in a Wetherspoons  :rollin
So you are an expert then  :rolleyes


Well, that's it for tonight....it's been fun but I'm off to get showered and
down Wetherspoons for some British Champagne and inferior quality beers ......Oh hang on a minute, didn't you do a UTurn on that one :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 07:15:26 PM
Quote
I'm off to get showered and down Wetherspoons for some British Champagne
I think I can say with some certainty that you never be able to find, never mind taste, British Champagne! :lol
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 07:24:13 PM
Ok then, how about sparkling wine :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 07:31:04 PM
 
Quote
Ok then, how about sparkling wine ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

Sorry I thought you were a bloke.  Enjoy. :D   Personally I drink beer and whisky in the pub. ;)     
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 01 December 2018, 07:37:06 PM
Getting a bit petty now I think. And if I have to dig for victory, then Ill do it. Some of our small breweries are turning out fabulous beers, so the EU can keep its bland tasteless lagers. If we are no longer able to get bratwurst, Gorgonzola, or Belgian chocolate, so what. In the grand scheme of things, they don't matter. If house prices tumble, great news for all those poor buggers that couldn't previously afford to buy a home. If the pound falls, it'll recover, it always has. Life will go on, and rather than the pigs ear parliament over the water churning out compromises which leave half of em unhappy all the time, dictating what national governments can and cant spend their own money on, we''l be back in control of our own destiny and stand or fall by it. If the Scots want to go their own way, let them go, be interesting to see Sturgeon with the begging bowl in Brussels, in the queue behind Romania/Bulgaria etc, with absolutely no say in matters

Oh, and by the way " TREASON" - the crime of showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government. :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 07:40:35 PM

Quote
Ok then, how about sparkling wine ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

Sorry I thought you were a bloke.  Enjoy. :D   Personally I drink beer and whisky in the pub. ;)     






Don't fucking lie.....You're Scottish.....You'd drink anything if someone else was buying. :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 01 December 2018, 07:44:02 PM
Getting a bit petty now I think. And if I have to dig for victory, then Ill do it. Some of our small breweries are turning out fabulous beers, so the EU can keep its bland tasteless lagers. If we are no longer able to get bratwurst, Gorgonzola, or Belgian chocolate, so what. In the grand scheme of things, they don't matter. If house prices tumble, great news for all those poor buggers that couldn't previously afford to buy a home. If the pound falls, it'll recover, it always has. Life will go on, and rather than the pigs ear parliament over the water churning out compromises which leave half of em unhappy all the time, dictating what national governments can and cant spend their own money on, we''l be back in control of our own destiny and stand or fall by it. If the Scots want to go their own way, let them go, be interesting to see Sturgeon with the begging bowl in Brussels, in the queue behind Romania/Bulgaria etc, with absolutely no say in matters

Oh, and by the way " TREASON" - the crime of showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government. :)


^^^^
Yep...This





Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 01 December 2018, 07:45:09 PM
Anyway VNA
On one hand you talk about sheep and exporting/ importing being bad for the environment but on the other you seem to take umbridge with Witherspoon doing the right thing by the environment by only using UK beer/ sparkling wine. You want your wine/beer and drink it.What about all that yellow whisky stuff scotland sends to Japan, surely there is no need for all those air miles when saki tastes just as bad, so the Japanese may as well just stick to drinking that.  :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 01 December 2018, 07:57:28 PM
If the Scots want to go their own way, let them go
:agree Totally--- forget a scot referendum it should be an English referendum if we want to kick the scots out.For one, it would make the weather forecast much better as we would not have to sit through pointless forecasts that have to cover right up to Lerwick.

 AND I want back the hour of daylight that scotland steals from us every October. ---Just so the farmers can see their sheep in the mornings so they they can catch them and send to New Zealand.     
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 10:12:41 PM
 
Quote
On one hand you talk about sheep and exporting/ importing being bad for the environment but on the other you seem to take umbridge with Witherspoon doing the right thing by the environment by only using UK beer/ sparkling wine.

If I remember correctly Tim Martin plans to replace European wines with Australian, Chilean etc.  I’m a big fan local and UK beers.  And I thank England for leading the way in the promotion of real ale.  Thank-you England for bringing back real beer :)


 
Quote
What about all that yellow whisky stuff scotland sends to Japan, surely there is no need for all those air miles when saki tastes just as bad, so the Japanese may as well just stick to drinking that.


 
I’m not against global trade, it’s just there’s a need to think carefully now about what we import/export.  I mean do we really need apples from Argentina?  Does it really make sense to air freight fresh veg?
I think there will always be an international trade in certain drinks.  Scottish Whisky is second to none.  Though the Japanese are keeping us on our toes, they make some fine whisky themselves.
Quote
AND I want back the hour of daylight that scotland steals from us every October. ---Just so the farmers can see their sheep in the mornings so they they can catch them and send to New Zealand.     
Nothing to do with us.  Nothing to do with farming either.  Was supposed to be about the school kids walking to school in daylight.  The sooner they keep us on summer time all year round the better.  At the moment round my way the sun rises at 08.25 and sets at 15.49 – the day is 7hrs 23 minutes long and we’ve still 30 minutes to loose.  Foccing murder.



 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 01 December 2018, 11:14:23 PM
Quote
so the EU can keep its bland tasteless lagers. If we are no longer able to get bratwurst, Gorgonzola, or Belgian chocolate, so what. In the grand scheme of things, they don't matter.


Belgian Trappist Dubble and Tripel, French Chimay Bleu, German purity laws and Schwarzbier. Spanish Chorizo, Italian Prosciutto, Olive Oil, etc etc.


Oh I forgot, you're from Up North  :(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 01 December 2018, 11:32:09 PM
Quote
Belgian Trappist Dubble and Tripel, French Chimay Bleu, German purity laws and Schwarzbier.
The Belgians are serious beer nuts.  Don't forget Czech beer.
And Port, where is Tim going to find an alternative tae Port.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 01 December 2018, 11:39:47 PM
I think when Fazersharp spelt Wetherspoons as 'Witherspoons' he got it spot on  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 02 December 2018, 12:06:21 AM
Quote
forget a scot referendum it should be an English referendum
Well as London produces 22% of the UK GDP, we're thinking of getting rid of the rest of England  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grayo on 02 December 2018, 05:29:31 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTLhM9kM/FB-IMG-1542572911122.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/T51gJyTH)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 02 December 2018, 09:04:27 PM
I can't see any image Grayo,
 Anyway, I’m still struggling to figure out what it is you BREXITEERS want.


The one thing I can come up with is control of our borders,


Yet, the latest figures show that net migration from the EU has fallen to 74,000.  Non-EU net immigration is 248,000


So the claim that leaving the EU will drastically curb immigration is false.  What will do is impact on our economy.



Note also that under directive 2004/38 EU migrants only have a right to residence in a member state for 3 months.  After that they need to have one of three things in order to continue to stay – A job – A job lined up – or be able to demonstrate that they have the means to support themselves. 

So we already have the means to control EU movement.




 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 03 December 2018, 07:09:23 PM
Quote
Belgian Trappist Dubble and Tripel, French Chimay Bleu, German purity laws and Schwarzbier.
The Belgians are serious beer nuts.  Don't forget Czech beer.
And Port, where is Tim going to find an alternative tae Port.

I equally don't think that too much port is drunk in W-Spoons either. And we brew a very good Trappist beer right here in the uk.
Czech beer - we will just then have to wait for Staropramen and Pilsner Urquell until a Czech-Out which is on the cards once we show that it can be done. Urquell is much nicer than most of the boring German wheat beers. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 03 December 2018, 10:56:49 PM


Note also that under directive 2004/38 EU migrants only have a right to residence in a member state for 3 months.  After that they need to have one of three things in order to continue to stay – A job – A job lined up – or be able to demonstrate that they have the means to support themselves. 

So we already have the means to control EU movement.


What happens if they don't fulfil those conditions?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 12:04:59 AM
Quote
until a Czech-Out which is on the cards once we show that it can be done.
Don't you believe it. I go to the Czech Republic and Slovakia every year. The EU are giving them too much money for them to want to leave
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 04 December 2018, 11:31:20 AM
Quote
until a Czech-Out which is on the cards once we show that it can be done.
Don't you believe it. I go to the Czech Republic and Slovakia every year. The EU are giving them too much money for them to want to leave
The more I find out the less I want to be in.
On a side note I thought that the Staropramen served in the bars was not as tasty as it is here for some reason but it was cheap but then again via the EU I am subsidising it anyway. Here I am tasting standard / cloudy and dark, did not bother with the one that is all froth.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 04:38:37 PM
If you get away from Prague you'd rarely pay more than the equivalent of £1for half a litre. Likewise Slovakia. They also have lots of breweries, not just the few we get here. I like the dark ones best.
As to prices, they've always been cheap, even pre EU. Part of the communist philosophy. Give the population cheap alcohol and tobacco, and they won't notice everything else that's bad.
Then of course there's Scandinavia, with a slightly different approach  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 05:49:41 PM
 
Quote
What happens if they don't fulfil those conditions?
They do not have a right to remain.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 05:59:32 PM
 
Quote
Well as London produces 22% of the UK GDP, we're thinking of getting rid of the rest of England  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])

 
That might be a plan.  Under Professor Minford’s (the economist the BREXITEERS love) forecast the UK will in financial terms have something of an economic boost under a NO DEAL BREXIT.  However, it will be the financial sector that according to him be given a massive boost, whilst as he says the bulk of UK manufacturing will be devastated.


So, you could have a situation where London accounts for 35-40% of GDP while the north of England is laid to waste.  Think of the north under a NO DEAL becoming akin to the rust belt of the USA.


 On the other hand, a few years down the line you might see London, just as we are seeing today in Paris, being torn down once all those in the north, and in fact the vast majority of ordinary people, realise that they have been conned.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 06:11:35 PM
Quote
What happens if they don't fulfil those conditions?
They do not have a right to remain.

Does that mean they are sent back to the member state that they came from?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 06:14:16 PM
Quote
Does that mean they are sent back to the member state that they came from?.
What it means is that they are no longer in the country legally.  They can be removed.
So I am at a loss as to what the big advantage of BREXIT is.
In fact there are no positives to May's DEAL, and no positives to NO DEAL.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 06:19:54 PM
Quote
Does that mean they are sent back to the member state that they came from?.
What it means is that they are no longer in the country legally.  They can be removed.
Are they all removed?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Grayo on 04 December 2018, 06:36:30 PM
Don't know what happened to my image so I'll try again.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 06:46:54 PM
European Court of Justice Attorney General has said Brexit is reversible in law, after Scottish legal challenge.

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1070012341335572481
We now have a way out of this mess.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 04 December 2018, 07:04:33 PM
More news

 The Corbin May TV debate is off
 Macron backs down on fuel tax
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 07:06:08 PM
And we will see the full legal advice that the government didn't want us to know. So the truth will be out
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46446694 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46446694)
I believe the BBC said this is the first time ever a government has been held in contempt of Parliament  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 07:07:55 PM
Yup that's a shocker. 
This is an absolute disaster.We need to ditch BREXIT and get our parliament back to running the UK.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 07:09:20 PM
Quote
Macron backs down on fuel tax
Well he's only postponed it for now, but who knows. Interesting in that what he wanted to do was equalise Petrol and Diesel Excise duty, which is what the UK has done for many years
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 07:12:20 PM
Don't know what happened to my image so I'll try again.
We've seen that nonsense thing before :z . I think mtread's already posted it
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 07:12:32 PM
Remain is on a roll  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 07:14:29 PM
Quote
I think mtread's already posted it
That is true, but I've got loads more  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 07:18:19 PM
We need to ditch BREXIT
Just watching parliament live. That's what quite a few MP's are saying. I'm amazed how many of them don't appear to know that there's been a referendum or the result of it :eek . Shocking really. You wouldn't think that there was anyone left in the UK who didn't know.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 07:20:09 PM
Remain is on a roll  :lol
I'm not swallowing that ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 07:20:39 PM
What is it that you want YamFazFan,
You never answered my question;
Quote
Quote<blockquote>Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.</blockquote>

So tell me YamFazFan do you want to see UK manufacturing eliminated?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 07:39:15 PM
What is it that you want YamFazFan,
You never answered my question;
Quote
Quote<blockquote>Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.</blockquote>

So tell me YamFazFan do you want to see UK manufacturing eliminated?



And can I come back to the one thing I think Minford is absolutely right about;


Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.

I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 04 December 2018, 08:14:39 PM
Quote
That's what quite a few MP's are saying. I'm amazed how many of them don't appear to know that there's been a referendum or the result of it . Shocking really. You wouldn't think that there was anyone left in the UK who didn't know.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 08:52:44 PM
 
Quote
I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.

So what you are doing is taking an economic model and cherry picking the bits you like and dismissing those you don’t. 



Ah, if only life could be like that.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 08:58:54 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtmGL0JWoAAAjQB.jpg)(https://twitter.com/cartoon4sale?lang=en)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 04 December 2018, 09:08:46 PM
Quote
I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.

So what you are doing is taking an economic model and cherry picking the bits you like and dismissing those you don’t. 
Isn't that what you did too :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 04 December 2018, 09:20:28 PM
Quote
Isn't that what you did too ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/rolleyes.gif[/url])

Umm, no.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 08:30:58 AM
Quote
I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.

So what you are doing is taking an economic model and cherry picking the bits you like and dismissing those you don’t. 



Ah, if only life could be like that.

 

And can I come back to the one thing I think Minford is absolutely right about;


Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 05 December 2018, 11:33:58 AM
Im not weakening. I do not want to remain in an organisation that we can never leave, makes our laws, and has to appease 27 other groups before it can get any agreement. We need to tackle some very serious internal problems as an orderly society is slipping further away from us day by day. Constantly having to have one eye on whats happening in that spiders web of self interested despots, some of whom wish us great harm, is a distraction and a financial burden upon us.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 05 December 2018, 11:58:01 AM
.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 05 December 2018, 12:02:44 PM
And there's more.....

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 05 December 2018, 12:33:02 PM

 I don't care if its 1 law - its one too many.   

 And there are laws and there are "laws"Here are some facts for your dis- information propaganda.
   
According to the House of Commons Library (http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP10-62/RP10-62.pdf), which itself concedes that there is no completely accurate way to make the calculation, between 1993 and 2014 Parliament passed 945 Acts of which 231 implemented EU obligations of some sort.
It also passed 33,160 Statutory Instruments, 4,283 of which implemented EU obligations. Add both of these together and divide by the total number of laws passed, and you get the 13% figure.
But that's not really an accurate figure because most EU regulations don't require new UK laws. They can be implemented in the UK without new legislation, for example by simply changing administrative rules.  So, the 13% figure doesn't take into account EU regulations that don't need additional UK legislation to be brought into force.
If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply in the UK implemented EU obligations.
Robert Oxley from Vote Leave says, "If you stacked the entire EU rule book it would be higher than Nelson's column. That's an incredible amount of paperwork which British businesses, British employers, all the people who have to comply with this legislation have to deal with.  It is cost and time added on to their businesses."
But some put the figure far lower, at around 13%. So who is right?
In a nutshell it's somewhere in-between the two - let's look at why.
To try to work out the proportion of UK law derived from EU law, you need to define what you mean by UK law and EU law, understand how they relate to one another, and only then "do the math".
So, what is meant by UK law? That's tricky because the devolved legislatures in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all pass laws that apply only in their nations, and not all laws passed at Westminster apply to the entire UK.
Essentially, there are two main kinds of UK law. Acts of Parliament, also known as statutes, and statutory instruments, which flesh out how a statute will work.
There are also two main types of EU law. There are EU regulations, most of which apply automatically in all 28 EU member states - so most EU regulations are part of UK law.
Then there are EU directives, which set out an aim for member states to achieve. They don't specify how to achieve it, but directives have to be implemented by a national law. The UK normally does this through a statutory instrument.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 05 December 2018, 01:07:13 PM
Quote
If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply in the UK implemented EU obligations.
I find that difficult to believe. What's your source? As pointed out, the 14% figure is research in the House of Commons Library
Quote
Robert Oxley from Vote Leave says, [/size]"If you stacked the entire EU rule book it would be higher than Nelson's colum
Which is of course typical Vote Leave hyperbole...

[/size][size=78%] [/size]


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 05 December 2018, 02:00:13 PM
Quote
If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply in the UK implemented EU obligations.
I find that difficult to believe. What's your source? As pointed out, the 14% figure is research in the House of Commons Library
Quote
Robert Oxley from Vote Leave says, [/size]"If you stacked the entire EU rule book it would be higher than Nelson's colum
Which is of course typical Vote Leave hyperbole...

[/size][size=78%] [/size]



Here you go -enjoy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 05 December 2018, 02:57:33 PM
Quietly re-assembling the suspension on the fazer in the garage, with the radio on (proper mantime). A cross section of MPs discussing Brexit. Astonishingly, (well, not really) all pushing the so called peoples vote (their vote really) the best question came from a fellow oop north, who simply asked, if you get your peoples vote, what would you do if you lost again?

Followed by bluster and completely failing to answer.

Given the all of the forecasts predicted a majority to remain at the referendum, which all proved wrong, what would you do if you lost again?

Still whinge?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 04:54:14 PM
It's the possibility of Remain winning a second referendum that you need to really worry about. Does anyone seriously think it wouldn't be as close either way as the first one was?
Leave will have had to win twice. Remain only have to win once. That's why they're so keen to have another crack at it ;)

If there were a second, the result would be binding. Say Remain win by 52% to 48%. That's the same as the margin Leave won by in the first referendum so it's a draw over the two rounds, but only the second one counts and then we're stuck in that rotten to the core institution forever.
They'd be as ungracious in victory as they are in defeat. They would be rubbing Leaver's noses right in it.
If Remain lost again I dread to think how low they would stoop in an attempt to overturn the democratic result again.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 06:08:18 PM
Quote
Quote from: VNA on 04 December 2018, 08:52:44 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288378.html#msg288378[/url])
Quote
I think Minford is absolutely wrong about that.

 So what you are doing is taking an economic model and cherry picking the bits you like and dismissing those you don’t. 
 
 
 
 Ah, if only life could be like that.
 
 

Quote from: VNA on 01 December 2018, 01:24:56 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288193.html#msg288193[/url])

 And can I come back to the one thing I think Minford is absolutely right about; 

Quote
Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the ‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality.

I’m not promoting Minford's view.  I am not cherry picking it,  I am criticising it.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 06:26:59 PM
 
Quote
It's the possibility of Remain winning a second referendum that you need to really worry about. Does anyone seriously think it wouldn't be as close either way as the first one was?
 Leave will have had to win twice. Remain only have to win once. That's why they're so keen to have another crack at it ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/file:///C:/Users/garet/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/url])
 
 If there were a second, the result would be binding. Say Remain win by 52% to 48%. That's the same as the margin Leave won by in the first referendum so it's a draw over the two rounds, but only the second one counts and then we're stuck in that rotten to the core institution forever.
 They'd be as ungracious in victory as they are in defeat. They would be rubbing Leaver's noses right in it.
 If Remain lost again I dread to think how low they would stoop in an attempt to overturn the democratic result again.

 
I wouldn’t get too excited about a second referendum.  It is only one option.  Though it has become a viable option.


One of the key moments yesterday was the ruling by the European Court of Justice’s advocate general;
Quote
The formal legal recommendation cites Britain's "sovereignty" in treaty-making matters and says withdrawal "may be revoked at any time" during the negotiating period, as long as it is done in good faith.

So what does that mean?  I think in practise it means that NO DEAL is now buried.  I think it also means that May’s deal is dead.  May has tried everything she can to block this advice.  Why?  Because without an exit she can hold a gun to MP’s heads and state, it’s my deal or NO DEAL.


Tory MPs now know that they can vote down May’s deal without the fear of a NO DEAL BREXIT occurring by default.  All MP’s now know it is safe to vote this deal down.


So what could happen is…..  May’s deal is voted down.  May might try again (perhaps doubtful as she may lose spectacularly in the first vote) but it could be voted down a second time.  May will be left with no credibility and the government will be at war with itself as the clock ticks slowly to Armageddon and a NO DEAL BREXIT.


But the government will not risk NO DEAL.  There are only a few dozen MP’s who are in favour of NO DEAL.  Parliament now has the power to call a vote on article 50.


NO DEAL will not happen because the parliament will stop it.  As a sovereign state, as a representative democracy, out MP’s have the power to act to stop such a disaster.


Our democracy is alive and well. :D
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 06:47:28 PM

Our democracy is alive and well. :D


They'd be as ungracious in victory as they are in defeat. They would be rubbing Leaver's noses right in it.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 06:51:34 PM
If such a scenario does indeed arise.
It's not a matter of victory, simply a matter of saving our country from itself.
It is clear that at some point this nonsense has to be nipped in the bud.
At the end of the day it was and is about the Tory party.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 06:56:45 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtqlImsWoAEzp-q.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 07:00:56 PM
This site is on the blink I reckon. That's another blank post just appeared (VNA 6:56:45pm). There's others in seperate threads. Logging in isn't straightforward anymore, unintended quotes appear in posts, paragraph gaps dissapear..........
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 07:02:10 PM
......or is it just me?? :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 07:06:13 PM
Looks fine tae me.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 05 December 2018, 08:11:22 PM
I can see your pic in post #722 on a mobile phone, but on laptop it just appears as an edit message or a blank in this mode.
The quote text in your post #718 is too miniscule to read on both devices.
It must be just me. I give up :rolleyes .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 08:15:33 PM
 Oh and talking of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists;
 
Well has anybody seen Nigel recently?  I couldn’t believe it yesterday when I saw the short report on the BBC concerning his resignation from UKIP.  Apparently over some little prick called Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon being taken on by UKIP as an ‘advisor’.
 
You know when I saw that a week or so ago on Twitter, I actually thought it was piss taking or fake news or something.  I didn’t pay any attention to it.  Even I didn’t think UKIP was that extreme, or for that matter stupid.
 
So it’s now fruitcakes loonies and racists.  I think we can drop the closet bit. :lol

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 05 December 2018, 09:28:03 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtrKTJbW0AAkneZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 12:37:58 AM
Quote
Here you go -enjoy.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105)
The article you quote goes on to say:
''So, does that mean that the Brexiteers are right?Not according to many expert lawyers and academics. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, some EU regulations, like those governing tobacco and olive oil production, are agreed by all member states but don't actually affect us at all because we don't have those industries here.
We also adopt some EU regulations that simply codify existing UK law at a European level. In other words, we would have that law anyway. But perhaps the biggest way in which it is said the 62% is inflated is because it includes within it what are known as non-legislative EU regulations, which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law.''

Well Fazersharp, you seem to have well and truly shot yourself in the foot there  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 12:44:01 AM
Quote
I can see your pic in post #722 on a mobile phone, but on laptop it just appears as an edit message or a blank in this mode.The quote text in your post #718 is too miniscule to read on both devices.It must be just me. I give up  .

Bloody EU!  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 12:46:52 AM
Here's Boris after yesterday's debate in Parliament

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 12:08:56 PM
Quote
Here you go -enjoy.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105)
The article you quote goes on to say:
''So, does that mean that the Brexiteers are right?Not according to many expert lawyers and academics. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, some EU regulations, like those governing tobacco and olive oil production, are agreed by all member states but don't actually affect us at all because we don't have those industries here.
We also adopt some EU regulations that simply codify existing UK law at a European level. In other words, we would have that law anyway. But perhaps the biggest way in which it is said the 62% is inflated is because it includes within it what are known as non-legislative EU regulations, which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law.''

Quote
Well Fazersharp, you seem to have well and truly shot yourself in the foot there  :lol
Err - no. all you have done is back up exactly what I said, which was   
Quote
And there are laws and there are "laws"
  you backed me up with this bit
Quote
includes within it what are known as non-legislative EU regulations, which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law.''
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 01:02:56 PM
All of which means ( according to many expert lawyers and academics) that the Brixiteers have got it wrong and it's nowhere near 62%?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 01:44:38 PM
All of which means ( according to many expert lawyers and academics) that the Brixiteers have got it wrong and it's nowhere near 62%?
Laws and "laws" if you want to be pedantic about it to try and debunk figures then go ahead.
Lets word it differently for you.
62% of UK laws and non-legislative regulations come from the EU
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 06 December 2018, 02:04:44 PM
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=513143645859870&id=166361507446533
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 02:10:16 PM
Quote
62% of UK laws and non-legislative regulations come from the EU
Including those on Tobacco and Olive growing. The BBC examination is making the point that the 62% is totally misleading. They are the ones being pedantic. 62% is Leave's own version of 'Project Fraud'.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 02:45:18 PM
I still haven't got a clue as to the 'laws' you object to?
And how those 'laws' are impacting on your life.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 03:04:58 PM
I still haven't got a clue as to the 'laws' you object to?
And how those 'laws' are impacting on your life.

This --- coming from someone who wants an independent scotlanl REALLY !  :rolleyes do you not see the irony.

If you claim to not understand then there is no point explaining it to you because you wouldn't understand that either.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 03:35:38 PM
Give us examples of the laws you object to.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 03:38:18 PM
Here's one -- Daylight running lights
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 03:38:26 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtuHQVbWoAAo46o.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 03:40:07 PM
Quote
Daylight running lights
You want to leave the EU becuase of daylight running lights?
I mean what the  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 03:41:26 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtuHQVbWoAAo46o.jpg)
An out of work plumber --- :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 03:43:18 PM
Quote
Daylight running lights
You want to leave the EU becuase of daylight running lights?
I mean what the  :eek
You asked for one - I gave you one.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 03:51:27 PM
Yesterday ----- Macron backs down on fuel tax

 Like I said on 4th December
 
Macron backs down on fuel tax
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 06 December 2018, 03:52:22 PM
Abnormal curvature of bananas :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 04:08:20 PM
Quote
Abnormal curvature of bananas

Quote
A Brussels ban on bendy bananas is one of the EU’s most persistent myths.
Bananas have always been classified by quality and size for international trade. Because the standards, set by individual governments and the industry, were confusing, the European Commission was asked to draw up new rules.
Commission regulation 2257/94 decreed ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm[/url]) that bananas in general should be “free from malformation or abnormal curvature”. Those sold as “extra class” must be perfect, “class 1” can have “slight defects of shape” and “class 2” can have full-scale “defects of shape”.
Nothing is banned under the regulation, which sets grading rules requested by industry to make sure importers – including UK wholesalers and supermarkets – know exactly what they will be getting when they order abox of bananas.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/boris-johnson-launches-the-vote-leave-battlebus-in-cornwall)
So another myth.
You will note that this piece of legislation was requested by the fruit and veg industry itself.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 04:09:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtuw_oLWwAAYA6r.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 04:11:22 PM
Google, google, google --- and then debunk DRL then
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 04:12:46 PM
 So, so far the BREXITEER foccers reasons for leaving the EU are
1.        Day light running lights
2.       Curved bananas
3.       Dazza’a Great Grandfather got shot in the leg by a German 100 years ago.
 
Anything else?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 04:21:56 PM
So, so far the BREXITEER foccers reasons for leaving the EU are
1.        Day light running lights
2.       Curved bananas
3.       Dazza’a Great Grandfather got shot in the leg by a German 100 years ago.
 
Anything else?
 
:z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 04:28:35 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtl7q-QX4AAQYdo.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 04:36:51 PM
So here's the possibe options as we stand today.
Note - this may all change at a moments notice. :lol


May’s deal passes A political shock: Theresa May squeaks over the line after convincing Brexiteers that it was her deal or no Brexit — and Remainers that it was her deal or a no-deal Brexit. The DUP then rains on May’s parade. Seething over the backstop, it declares that the confidence and supply agreement is over for good. This scenario could involve delaying the initial vote in the hope this gives MPs time to come around.

It passes on a second vote Theresa May’s deal fails to pass first time round by 50 votes. Insisting Nothing Has Changed, the Prime Minister flies to an EU council meeting the following day where she wins some ‘clarifications’ for wavering MPs. The markets start to get jittery about no deal and sterling falls. Nervous MPs begrudgingly vote the deal through. Ministers refer to this as the TARP method, in reference to the market panic which helped the US government push its 2008 bank bailout through Congress.

 EEA membership When the withdrawal agreement returns for a second vote, MPs add an amendment instructing the government to negotiate a Norway-style Brexit which would see the UK enter the EEA — the thinking being that this avoids the perils of the backstop. Remain-minded cabinet members support this safer option, as do a chunk of Tory MPs, Labour MPs and the DUP, because Northern Ireland would not be treated differently. May’s position becomes untenable as EEA membership means the continuation of freedom of movement: her one remaining Brexit red line.

 Early election The Prime Minister’s deal loses by more than 100 votes. As civil war breaks out in the Tory party (again), Labour makes its play for an early election and tries to defeat the government in a confidence motion. Angered over the backstop, the DUP say they will vote with opposition MPs unless the Tories agree to change tack. May refuses, the motion passes and the Commons has 14 days to approve a new government — perhaps the Tories led by a DUP-friendly leader like Boris Johnson. However, any Tory Brexiteer promising to ditch the backstop and pursue a hard Brexit loses the backing of pro-Remain Tories like Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve. The country goes to the polls.

Second referendum There is no consensus on a way forward. MPs ask whether the only way to break the deadlock is to go back to the people. Cross-party MPs tied to the People’s Vote campaign say they will vote for the government’s deal on the condition it is put to a public vote — with Remain on the ballot paper. Brexiteers ponder whether the only way left to get a proper Brexit is to win another referendum. Desperate to break the impasse, May says she will take her deal to a vote. Fights ensue over what the question should be. Article 50 is suspended to make time for a second referendum.

 No-deal Brexit The government’s Brexit deal is rejected across the House. MPs then spend the next eight weeks bickering about the varying merits of EEA membership, a second referendum and revoking Article 50. May faces a challenge over her leadership from MPs who blame her for the mess. No consensus can be found, the clock ticks on and time runs out: the UK leaves on WTO terms. A belated attempt at a negotiated no deal gets under way to allow planes to fly, citizens to travel and goods to flow between the UK and the Continent.

No Brexit After May’s historic defeat, the letters go in and Theresa May loses a confidence vote. Concluding this is not a time for partisan politics, cross-party MPs come together and form a government of ‘national unity’. Their first step? To revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit — at least until an alternative plan is decided.


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/war-gaming-the-brexit-vote-seven-scenarios-for-what-happens-next/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/war-gaming-the-brexit-vote-seven-scenarios-for-what-happens-next/)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 06 December 2018, 04:57:57 PM
So, so far the BREXITEER foccers reasons for leaving the EU are
1.        Day light running lights
2.       Curved bananas
3.       Dazza’a Great Grandfather got shot in the leg by a German 100 years ago.
 
Anything else?
And that just goes to prove what kind of person you are.
You can trivialise it if you like. He was lucky to survive.
Do you know what sort of an injury a high velocity round causes.
He almost lost his leg and was lucky not to lose his life.
I think only you would stoop as low as to try and make a personal comment towards my Great Grandfather.
There are plenty of other things you could have mentioned to make your point.


I'm not going to rise to the provocation because it's just the Internet and to be honest I feel quite sorry for you.
Anyone who carries as much VeNom As you do and obviously takes great delight in insulting people and calling everyone they don't agree with racists can't be very happy.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 05:01:58 PM
Quote
And that just goes to prove what kind of person you are.
You can trivialise it if you like. He was lucky to survive.
Do you know what sort of an injury a high velocity round causes.
He almost lost his leg and was lucky not to lose his life.
I think only you would stoop as low as to try and make a personal comment towards my Great Grandfather.
There are plenty of other things you could have mentioned to make your point.
You did state it was one reason you wanted to leave the EU.
Quote
Anyone who carries as much VeNom As you do and obviously takes great delight in insulting people and calling everyone they don't agree with racists can't be very happy.
Really :eek :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 05:05:07 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtb5EkmW0AEZnR5.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 07:13:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtwPM-1XQAAb_oM.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 09:19:35 PM
Daylight Running Lights. If the EU make them compulsory for new cars,  do you really think we wouldn't if we left the EU? Are motor manufacturers really going to the expense of  making special editions without them just for the UK?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 09:25:22 PM
Quote
Yesterday ----- Macron backs down on fuel tax
You mean the same equalisation of diesel and petrol duties we have had in the UK for the last 40 odd years?
Also worth pointing out Fuel Duties are nothing to do with the EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 09:27:53 PM
Daylight Running Lights. If the EU make them compulsory for new cars,  do you really think we wouldn't if we left the EU? Are motor manufacturers really going to the expense of  making special editions without them just for the UK?
No of course not  :rolleyes I was asked for a law I did not like and I gave one.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 09:48:06 PM
Quote
Yesterday ----- Macron backs down on fuel tax
Also worth pointing out Fuel Duties are nothing to do with the EU.
Never said they were anything to do with the EU - no wonder you didn't understand what the bus said.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 06 December 2018, 10:14:49 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtwPM-1XQAAb_oM.jpg)


I bet all of the sailors mutinied when they found out that he'd drunk that barrel of rum dry ;) . Mind you credit where it's due, he's done well to hold that plank steady considering  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 06 December 2018, 10:29:21 PM
Quote
No of course not  I was asked for a law I did not like and I gave one.

There are lots of UK laws I'm not too keen on!



Quote
Never said they were anything to do with the EU - no wonder you didn't understand what the bus said.

But this is a Brexit thread, so you did a thread  :hijack    and I understood the bus lie perfectly  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 10:33:48 PM
Quote
No of course not  I was asked for a law I did not like and I gave one.

There are lots of UK laws I'm not too keen on!
Agreed - BUT you can vote out the politicians who made them in this country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 10:38:16 PM
Quote
Never said they were anything to do with the EU - no wonder you didn't understand what the bus said.

But this is a Brexit thread, so you did a thread  :hijack    and I understood the bus lie perfectly  :lol

I was going to make a point about laws - EU and in general that it seems only the UK that takes them and abides by them, Doesn't matter EU - or local, if the French don't like em -------they dot get em.The UK has to do what they are told whilst the French do what they like. The French farmers just the same - as is the fishermen.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 06 December 2018, 10:56:08 PM

Quote from: mtread link=topic=24678.msg288523#msg288523 date=[font=verdana
But this is a Brexit thread, so you did a thread  :hijack  [/font]



'and other politics' it said in steve 10562cc's OP :deal
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 06 December 2018, 11:01:19 PM
Quotes brackets disease strikes again :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 11:18:29 PM
What is the aim of all of these Goebbels-esk propaganda cartoons is it just to name call, wind up, insult every leave voter. Surely the remainers efforts would be better spent trying to gather support for their cause and even try to reverse leave voters opinions rather than mocking the leavers, all you are doing is entrenching the leavers views. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 06 December 2018, 11:26:31 PM
Here is my prediction.May's deal will be voted down.
Borris will mount a leadership challenge.
Nigel Farage will become a Lord/knight and enter the government.Borris wins the PM after saying he will call for an election.Labour will agree to one being called
Conservative party will win with the help of Lord Farage.No deal Brexit.We negotiate into the parts of the EU we want from a position of strength.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 06 December 2018, 11:43:01 PM
Oh My!
This is the first time i have visited this thread for a while now, and, I see it has gone down hill quite rapidly, not that it was very upmarket from in inception. as it was a post for VNA  :eek :eek :eek :lol :lol :lol .

We can pontificate as much as we like, having this opinion and that opinion, but alas it will be done unto you, whether you like it or not.

Do you honestly think that you as a British person (No matter what colour skin you have, even if your from North of the Border and your pale blue) have any more rights or are listened to in this country, than say nationals, Filipinos or Nepalese do in Dubai?
We will be shafted by those in power whether its Theresa, Jeremy or any of the other selfish grabbing bastards that are at the helm. After all we all expected to contribute to Sir Peter Viggers the cost of a £1,645 floating duck-house
Or just to sight another of our ministers that are looking after our and the country's interests, Kitty Ussher this woman resigned as a Treasury minister after avoiding a £17,000 tax bill on the sale of her home.
T
here are different rules for different folk.
Fuck you Jack I'm all right!  :eek

How is that for a hijack? or is that a fuck you hijack?  :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 11:56:05 PM
Borris will mount a leadership challenge.

Boris tae the rescue :eek

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2eOkSWWQAApHj-.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 06 December 2018, 11:57:37 PM
Quote
not that it was very upmarket from in inception. as it was a post for VNA  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url]) .
Cheeky bastard :foc
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 12:13:49 AM
What is the aim of all of these Goebbels-esk propaganda cartoons is it just to name call, wind up, insult every leave voter. Surely the remainers efforts would be better spent trying to gather support for their cause and even try to reverse leave voters opinions rather than mocking the leavers, all you are doing is entrenching the leavers views.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that 'Leave' had lost the referendum wouldn't you?.
'Remain' are now the ones acting victorious and Leave defensive. Obviously that's not how it should be but Remain are full of confidence, even in defeat, because they know that they have the force of the establishment on their side attempting to make every effort to reverse the referendum result. Who can blame Remain for being optimistic?. Not me. I'd be very surprised if we come out. Over 17 million votes and 52% to 48% probably isn't going to sway it ufortunately :\ .
If it had been 52% to Remain it would have been declared a clear victory, end of debate no doubt.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 12:23:42 AM
Quote
What is the aim of all of these Goebbels-esk propaganda cartoons is it just to name call, wind up, insult every leave voter. Surely the remainers efforts would be better spent trying to gather support for their cause and even try to reverse leave voters opinions rather than mocking the leavers, all you are doing is entrenching the leavers views.
OK

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 12:35:26 AM
Quote
Agreed - BUT you can vote out the politicians who made them in this country.
But no you can't. You can vote for one MP, one (or perhaps two) local councillors. If your candidate is elected and in opposition, you don't get what you want.
What's the difference with the EU? You vote for your candidate as an MEP. If they win, they have a vote in the European Parliament. If you don't like what your MEP is doing, you can vote them out. If your MEP joins with others to resist an EU proposal, then it won't happen.
Does anybody here actually bother to vote in the European Parliament elections?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 12:48:15 AM
Quote
Who can blame Remain for being optimistic?. Not me. I'd be very surprised if we come out.
I think you're right, but not without another referendum. If the result is something like 60:40 or above  Remain they will use that to overturn the 48:52.
My betting though is a delay on the March deadline followed by a renegotiated deal keeping all of the UK in the Customs Union and the Single Market. What NI is getting, but for all of the UK. A sort of Norway deal and not far removed from Theresa's current offerring, and closer to Labour's 6 tests. Shuts up the DUP too. UK then can say it has formally left the EU, but still takes most of the rules. Does mean though that in future UK can withdraw any time it likes. Theresa's escape plan.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 08:15:35 AM


What's the difference with the EU?


You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 10:34:53 AM
Quote
You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.
You can't vote for the Civil Servants who propose, write and implement the UK legislation that UK members of Parliament vote on. Who do you think prepared the Withdrawal Bill? MPs just sign stuff off.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 11:02:47 AM

MPs just sign stuff off.


Nonsense.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 11:10:55 AM

MPs just sign stuff off.


In that case they can just sign off Brexit ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 12:07:08 PM
Quote
MPs just sign stuff off.Nonsense.
Been there, done it. I think you're over estimating the abilities of our 'leaders'  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 12:46:16 PM
You've been an MP?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 01:00:08 PM
Quote
You've been an MP?
No. It was either become a blood donor or join the Young Conservatives  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 01:11:32 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 07 December 2018, 01:50:12 PM
Quote
You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.
You can't vote for the Civil Servants who propose, write and implement the UK legislation that UK members of Parliament vote on. Who do you think prepared the Withdrawal Bill? MPs just sign stuff off.
That's another thing, I have been watching the BBC doc about the foreign office and got the distinct that all the civil servants - permanent secretaries - ambassadors, all want to stay in the EU and therefore maintain the status quo keeping themselves in a cushy little job with nice pensions. All out of the direct gaze of the public.
Politicians however need to have one eye on what the voters think         
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 07 December 2018, 02:45:51 PM
I never had any objection to free movement within the EU. Its all those that get in from outside, the spongers, the thieves, the disease carriers, the terrorists, those that have abandoned their wives and children, that get here, are declared illegal and disappear to work in the black economy, then want to change our society to reflect their interests. In general, I found those from Poland/Chez republic very well mannered, polite and good workers
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 03:50:33 PM
Quote
That's another thing, I have been watching the BBC doc about the foreign office and got the distinct that all the civil servants - permanent secretaries - ambassadors, all want to stay in the EU and therefore maintain the status quo keeping themselves in a cushy little job with nice pensions. All out of the direct gaze of the public.Politicians however need to have one eye on what the voters think         

I've been watching it too. Another way of looking at it is that ministers come and go (especially with this lot), and don't care what mess they leave. Just look at Boris. And of course they've got their private sector interests to keep them cosy. Civil Servants want continuity and stability, because they will have to clear the mess up.
BTW MPs get better pensions than Civil Servants, and dear Nigel Farage will be getting a better pension than both.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 07 December 2018, 05:44:49 PM
 
Quote
You can't vote either in or out the unelected members of The European Commission who propose the legislation that the MEP's vote on.

You can’t vote in or out your Prime Minister.  You can’t vote in or out government ministers.  So by your logic our government and our PM are unelected.
 
Quote
I never had any objection to free movement within the EU.

As I said before - Note also that under directive 2004/38 EU migrants only have a right to residence in a member state for 3 months.  After that they need to have one of three things in order to continue to stay – A job – A job lined up – or be able to demonstrate that they have the means to support themselves. 
 
 So we already have the means to control EU movement.  Freedom of movement is a non-issue.
 
Quote
Its all those that get in from outside, the spongers, the thieves, the disease carriers, the terrorists, those that have abandoned their wives and children, that get here, are declared illegal and disappear to work in the black economy, then want to change our society to reflect their interests.
Whilst I disagree most strongly at your general description of immigrants from outside the EU Agricola, I would point out again that leaving the EU will make no difference to non-EU immigration.   I would further point out that our illegal wars, proxy wars and weapons sales have contributed massively to UK immigration.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 07 December 2018, 05:49:15 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtK9d3GXgAAg3VR.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 07 December 2018, 06:31:03 PM
Civil Servants want continuity and stability
Sir Humphrey Appleby :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 07 December 2018, 08:05:41 PM
Quote
Sir Humphrey Appleby

Versus Jim Hacker - I rest my case  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 09 December 2018, 09:50:01 PM
Setting aside any in or out bias. I am wondering if Mays plan will actually be voted down, all the talk about the maths and numbers doth speak to loudly me think  and I wonder if members are saying they will vote it down but actually have no plans to. Or is number 10 over playing the against vote so that when there is an against vote - but not as overwhelming as being predicted it can be used as- and played as a victory.The problem with politicians is that they are all politicians.I think it should be like jury service and you are called up as a citizen and member of the public to do a stint in the commons.Look out the white paper on Fazers paying no road tax or insurance and free petrol when I do my turn.And then after that I will get a very nice rotating door job at Yam __________________ oh my god I have become an actual politician  :eek         
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 09 December 2018, 11:05:35 PM
There are clearly all sorts of tactics going on. If she thinks she is going to lose, she will have a plan B, but won't reveal until she has lost. I can't see how she can get her deal through. With all the opposition parties voting against (for various reasons) + the DUP + both the Tory Remainers and the Tory Hard Brexiteers, it's an impossibility. I can't see many being persuaded at the last minute. We'll know plan B by Wednesday.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: celticdog on 10 December 2018, 08:38:51 AM
Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 10 December 2018, 02:20:54 PM
Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.


 :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 04:02:56 PM

We'll know plan B by Wednesday.


...or even by Monday ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 04:13:45 PM
Plan? What plan....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 04:51:59 PM

Plan? What plan....


Just watching Parliament Live.


Here's the Remain MP's plan for uniting a deeply divided nation...keep voting until the result is Remain :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 04:58:16 PM

Plan? What plan....


She's postponed tomorrow's vote while she goes back to The EU to appeal to them to be a bit more reasonable. Good luck with that one.


Bring on the No Deal :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 10 December 2018, 05:10:07 PM
Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.

excellent post :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 05:32:30 PM

Worst case scenario for me is that we have a re run of the brexit vote and we end up remaining. The EU more or less forced Ireland and Denmark to re-run elections as they didn't get the result they wanted.
That's my and others peoples biggest criticism of the EU- it's fundamentally undemocratic. Forget the racist xenophobia and the economic downturn rhetoric it's all a smokescreen. The UK is a tolerant society and still will be after brexit. I'm not sure it's the same in other places, fascism is on the rise- we need to be on our guard. Also, there are plenty of countries in the EU who have economies that are tanking- PIGS- Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. They don't want us to leave in case others do similar. This cartel has had it's day imho.

excellent post :thumbup


+1 :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 06:14:37 PM
Amazing that this morning her ministers were saying that there would be a vote tomorrow.
Yes good luck on renegotiating with Europe (particularly the Irish). Even if she does, she's still got to get it through Parliament.
Bring on the People's Vote (version 2).

Meanwhile the £ goes down, down, down....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 06:21:02 PM
Woman who keeps changing her mind refuses to give UK chance to change its mind......
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 10 December 2018, 07:30:31 PM
She will get thrown back in the channel just like Cam-moron did when he went cap in hand to ask for some scraps to try and prevent a referendum in the first place. Given that and the way the UK has been treated during the negotiations.These remainers that say people voted leave to kick the political class ok then the leavers have now got even more reason to kick. For 18 months leavers have been called racist, wanglangers, stupid, thick, old, gamon, how do you remainers think the leavers will react to all of that abuse - I say bring it on lets do it again. But if we do it again and a no deal (leave on WTO ) is not on the ballot along with no brexit then I will be opening a yellow vest shop.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 07:41:26 PM

Woman who keeps changing her mind


She's in good company. Lots of those MP's now trying to reverse Brexit voted for both the referendum and to trigger Article 50.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 08:05:33 PM
Quote
For 18 months leavers have been called racist, wanglangers, stupid, thick, old, gamon, how do you remainers think the leavers will react to all of that abuse - I say bring it on lets do it again. But if we do it again and a no deal (leave on WTO ) is not on the ballot along with no brexit then I will be opening a yellow vest shop.
For 18 months Remainers have been given just as much abuse. I totally agree, bring it on with only  No Deal /No Brexit on the paper. I think we both agree May's deal, and particularly her tactics for promoting it are shocking.  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 10 December 2018, 08:06:55 PM
She will get thrown back in the channel just like Cam-moron did when he went cap in hand to ask for some scraps to try and prevent a referendum in the first place. Given that and the way the UK has been treated during the negotiations.These remainers that say people voted leave to kick the political class ok then the leavers have now got even more reason to kick. For 18 months leavers have been called racist, wanglangers, stupid, thick, old, gamon, how do you remainers think the leavers will react to all of that abuse - I say bring it on lets do it again. But if we do it again and a no deal (leave on WTO ) is not on the ballot along with no brexit then I will be opening a yellow vest shop.

another good post. And if the remainers get their way and our political class bottle it completely and take us crawling back to the EU on our hands and knees, how do They honestly think we would get treated from that point on? 
All we would need then s another election and Corbyn getting in and we would have the full set.
A nation belittled and treated with contempt by the rest of Europe, led by a man who despises it and its people even more than they do.
bring it on..
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 08:31:09 PM

I totally agree, bring it on with only  No Deal /No Brexit on the paper.


I totally disagree. If we can't achieve a satisfactory deal, then it's leave with No Deal.


No second referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 10:01:52 PM
But that won't happen. Parliament will reject it. The only alternative will be to cancel Article 50.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 10 December 2018, 10:34:46 PM

It's difficult to predict what can or will happen at the moment, the situation is changing fast now.


The country is totally divided on the issue, but if you're interested in these things you can't say it's not more than a little compelling to observe whichever way you lean on the matter :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 10 December 2018, 10:58:51 PM

For 18 months Remainers have been given just as much abuse. I totally agree, bring it on with only  No Deal /No Brexit on the paper. 
Here are the words been used just on this thread to describe those people who voted leave 
 Stupid
 English fools
Wanglanders
Racist
War mongers
Loonies
Fruitcakes
Liars
Silly
Pig headed
Bonkers
Crazy
Thick
Excitable
Selfish
Dinosaurs
Waffle
Small children
Nobs
Looney toons
Clueless
Xenophobic
Islamophobic
Way to go - remainers, great way to persuade leave voters to change their mind. People do not liked being talked down to by you or the EU and it will be reflected so in a vote.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 11:42:00 PM
Quote
It's difficult to predict what can or will happen at the moment, the situation is changing fast now.
The country is totally divided on the issue, but if you're interested in these things you can't say it's not more than a little compelling to observe whichever way you lean on the matter

Totally agree. Watching the news tonight in astonishment. Politicians twisting and turning. Hilarious reaction to minister Alan Duncan told by Kuenssberg that May had cancelled the vote. Not often seen a politician lost for words.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 10 December 2018, 11:54:26 PM
Quote
Way to go - remainers, great way to persuade leave voters to change their mind. People do not liked being talked down to by you or the EU and it will be reflected so in a vote.
The only person on here accused of being racist was VNA  :rolleyes  and even that was a joke
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Robbie8666 on 11 December 2018, 07:27:59 AM

For 18 months Remainers have been given just as much abuse. I totally agree, bring it on with only  No Deal /No Brexit on the paper. 
Here are the words been used just on this thread to describe those people who voted leave 
 Stupid
 English fools
Wanglanders
Racist
War mongers
Loonies
Fruitcakes
Liars
Silly
Pig headed
Bonkers
Crazy
Thick
Excitable
Selfish
Dinosaurs
Waffle
Small children
Nobs
Looney toons
Clueless
Xenophobic
Islamophobic
Way to go - remainers, great way to persuade leave voters to change their mind. People do not liked being talked down to by you or the EU and it will be reflected so in a vote.

I got 19/23 :) guess which way I voted hahaha
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 09:26:23 AM

S

I got 19/23 :) guess which way I voted hahaha


Hmmm that's really helped Leave's cause no end :rolleyes .

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 09:30:33 AM

Usually you hear Donald Tusk's surname pronounced 'Toosk'.


In The Commons yesterday one of the MP's kept pronouncing it as it looks, Ie as in elephants tusk.


I bet he hates that :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 11 December 2018, 09:35:29 AM
I always pronounce Nigel's name as Faraaarge. Makes him sound more foreign  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 10:20:01 AM

One of the features writers on The Daily Mail is Alice Smellie. You'd have to change that wouldn't you?!. I can just imagine all the sniggering when asked...'Surname please?'.


Cue a totally unrelated, 'trendy', right-on, left wing dig about The Mail :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 10:27:16 AM
...apologies if there's any Smellies on here by the way ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 11 December 2018, 11:47:05 AM
Found on F/Book
https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/512950682524090/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTg5Njk3MzM5OToxOTY5NzU4MzUzMzI2MTgy/?multi_permalinks=1969012416734109&notif_id=1544442451016594&notif_t=group_highlights (https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/512950682524090/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTg5Njk3MzM5OToxOTY5NzU4MzUzMzI2MTgy/?multi_permalinks=1969012416734109&notif_id=1544442451016594&notif_t=group_highlights)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 11 December 2018, 11:53:03 AM
Quote
Way to go - remainers, great way to persuade leave voters to change their mind. People do not liked being talked down to by you or the EU and it will be reflected so in a vote.

The only person on here accused of being racist was VNA  :rolleyes  and even that was a joke


Than let me remind you.


On your other point, obviously true, but reminds me of a phrase I've seen quoted - '' Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers ''

Oh and talking of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists; 
So it’s now fruitcakes loonies and racists.  I think we can drop the closet bit. :lol
 


Quote
The venue holds 2000 and it was approximately 2 thirds full apparently.It was part of a tour of different venues and it was ticketed. I'd like to see how many remoaners had turned up to the London march if they'd had to pay to get in  .Besides which you're always going to attract more remoaners to these things. They've more of a gripe and they desperately want to reverse the democratic decision.


So 666 (that's ominous isn't it) didn't turn up. Or they were probably out busy setting fire to mosques or something....
And a reminder of a couple of propaganda posters for you.

(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24678.0;attach=34056;image)(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24678.0;attach=33801;image)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 11 December 2018, 12:22:46 PM
Quote
One of the features writers on The Daily Mail is Alice Smellie. You'd have to change that wouldn't you?!. I can just imagine all the sniggering when asked...'Surname please?'.
I always fancied Carol Smillie. Is that close enough? :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 12:25:42 PM


I always fancied Carol Smillie.


I still do :b
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 11 December 2018, 12:28:53 PM
Quote
Than let me remind you.
Don't need reminding, and nobody on here has (seriously) been accused. As I said, I've not yet met a racist who voted Remain, but I've met and know lots of Brexiteers who are most certainly not racist.
I think the fact that  UKIP (the only party promoting Leave pre referendum) has appointed Stephen Yaxley Lennon (a known racist) as an advisor, indicates their latest direction.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 01:50:08 PM
That's finished them as far as I'm concerned. Beyond stupidity. It's almost unbelievable. Of all the people to appoint. You really couldn't make it up. Is this new leader some sort of plant, like a double-agent, working to destroy the party from inside out?. Madness.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 11 December 2018, 02:58:35 PM
What I am finding funny is the self - important news presenters getting ratty about being drowned out by the demonstrators now that they have set up their outdoor studio on collage green, they are attracting every kind of protest you can think of and not just brexit ones.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 11 December 2018, 03:47:04 PM
I think since Farage stood down it's been a disaster. A succession of unprofessional leaders. Not a patch on him. I disagree with him, but I admire him.
As to the demonstrators in Parliament Square, hilarious to see the longer and longer poles they are using to get their placards in shot  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 11 December 2018, 04:07:54 PM
I think since Farage stood down it's been a disaster. A succession of unprofessional leaders. Not a patch on him. I disagree with him, but I admire him.
As to the demonstrators in Parliament Square, hilarious to see the longer and longer poles they are using to get their placards in shot  :lol
I think they have clearly studied the live transmissions and get the length and position just right. I want to see Kay Burliegh loose it and go down there and smack someone (she loves herself)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 11 December 2018, 04:24:36 PM
Like yourselves I used to think Tommy Robinson was linked to racism but then I educated myself and stopped believing the propaganda and realised in fact it's nothing to do with racism. It's about an extreme ideology that belongs in the Stone Age that is the purge of modern society and a danger to our children's innocence and safety.
But again, it's the old racist label that prevents anyone wanting to be seen to be associated or supportive of a morally right cause.
The reason they want him silenced goes much deeper than you can ever imagine.
If you've ever heard of John Wedger, the police whistleblower, you may understand.
If you want to understand what really is going on please take some time to watch these two links.
The first is a speech at Oxford university where Tommy explains how the EDL was formed and why.
A movement he has distanced himself from after it was hijacked by right wing extremists which of course some were probably racists.
I'm not saying I agree with everything but the fact remains that there is an Islamic culture problem in this country that needs to be open for discussion so that it can be addressed.
Putting reporting bans on anything the establishment doesn't want the public to know just goes to show how information managed we all are in this country.
The second is the international tribunal where John Wedger lays bare the complete corruption that is our establishment and police service.
Watch and make your own minds up before you start screaming racist at everything and everyone you don't agree with or understand.


Sorry... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvUXxw_USGs#)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTklfGY3fmk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTklfGY3fmk)


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 11 December 2018, 05:22:18 PM
I think since Farage stood down it's been a disaster. A succession of unprofessional leaders. Not a patch on him. I disagree with him, but I admire him.
As to the demonstrators in Parliament Square, hilarious to see the longer and longer poles they are using to get their placards in shot  :lol


Theres something to admire a bout a man whouses his own money for a cause he passionately belives in.


I think his loss from the stage has highlighted the complete absence from our political scene of Statesmen. There are none now. The Labour Party is not what is once was, taken over by the middle classes and just waiting the opportunity to rid itself of its current leader, whence all the old Blairites will crawl out from under the stones. You mark my words. Perhaps the loss of statesmen can be attributed to our membership of the Eu, since we have become just one of a club twenty eight on the world stage, unable to shape our own destiny, control our own economy, control our own borders. If it is to be a hard Brexit, then bring it on, the British people have faced hard times before. If it is to be a hard Brexit, then let us do our utmost to ensure that its as hard as it can be for those who have sought to put us at a disadvantage for expressing a desire to leave their organisation. The next time the Europeans need our help to save them from themselves, we should consider turning away and maintaining our links and relations with those free nations who share our views, our standards, our history. The world is bigger than the EU, evolving, nations emerging. The Chinese recognise it, filling spaces we vacated. We face challenges in the not too distant future as the climate may be changing with adverse impacts affecting our daily lives. Water companies will need to invest significant sums to ensure continuity of supplies nationwide, we may require nationalisation as the privatised companies are unlikely to be willing to divert profits to do so. Similar action may well be required in the power generation field. The EU does not approve of state owned enterprises, seeing them as distorting internal markets. Its unlikely the Prime Minister will be able to offer Parliament enough to secure the current Brexit Agreement in January, a second referendum is likely to create unrest on the streets unseen since the thirties. A hard Brexit now appears the likely outcome
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 05:28:57 PM
I think since Farage stood down it's been a disaster. A succession of unprofessional leaders. Not a patch on him. I disagree with him, but I admire him.
As to the demonstrators in Parliament Square, hilarious to see the longer and longer poles they are using to get their placards in shot  :lol


Theres something to admire a bout a man whouses his own money for a cause he passionately belives in.


I think his loss from the stage has highlighted the complete absence from our political scene of Statesmen. There are none now. The Labour Party is not what is once was, taken over by the middle classes and just waiting the opportunity to rid itself of its current leader, whence all the old Blairites will crawl out from under the stones. You mark my words. Perhaps the loss of statesmen can be attributed to our membership of the Eu, since we have become just one of a club twenty eight on the world stage, unable to shape our own destiny, control our own economy, control our own borders. If it is to be a hard Brexit, then bring it on, the British people have faced hard times before. If it is to be a hard Brexit, then let us do our utmost to ensure that its as hard as it can be for those who have sought to put us at a disadvantage for expressing a desire to leave their organisation. The next time the Europeans need our help to save them from themselves, we should consider turning away and maintaining our links and relations with those free nations who share our views, our standards, our history. The world is bigger than the EU, evolving, nations emerging. The Chinese recognise it, filling spaces we vacated. We face challenges in the not too distant future as the climate may be changing with adverse impacts affecting our daily lives. Water companies will need to invest significant sums to ensure continuity of supplies nationwide, we may require nationalisation as the privatised companies are unlikely to be willing to divert profits to do so. Similar action may well be required in the power generation field. The EU does not approve of state owned enterprises, seeing them as distorting internal markets. Its unlikely the Prime Minister will be able to offer Parliament enough to secure the current Brexit Agreement in January, a second referendum is likely to create unrest on the streets unseen since the thirties. A hard Brexit now appears the likely outcome
Good post.
No concessions Mrs May can secure from the EU (and she'll be lucky to get anything at all) will ever be enough for the fanatical Remainers. Only a complete reversal of Brexit will satisfy them.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 December 2018, 06:02:04 PM
What I am finding funny is the self - important news presenters getting ratty about being drowned out by the demonstrators now that they have set up their outdoor studio on collage green, they are attracting every kind of protest you can think of and not just brexit ones.
The only ones I ever hear over Huw Edwards are Remainiacs demanding Brexit be overturned. I suspect that's exactly why the BBC are interviewing out there.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 December 2018, 06:35:43 PM
Quote
Oh and talking of fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists;
So it’s now fruitcakes loonies and racists.  I think we can drop the closet bit. :lol

Well first of all you are again quoting me out of context.  The context is;
Quote
Well has anybody seen Nigel recently?  I couldn’t believe it yesterday when I saw the short report on the BBC concerning his resignation from UKIP.  Apparently over some little prick called Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon being taken on by UKIP as an ‘advisor’.
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon isn’t just a mere repugnant racist, but he is in fact a fascist.  The fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists is a well known quote from David Cameron.  So yes UKIP is out of the closet, and I’m afraid I fail to see what is racist about calling racists racist.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 December 2018, 07:06:40 PM
 
Quote
A nation belittled and treated with contempt by the rest of Europe
Oh dear oh dear, the poor old UK being bullied by the other 27.   Yup they have all united together to bully us.  It’s all their fault.


 
Nothing to do with us, as one of the main architects of the EU, suddenly spitting the dummy out and wanting to walk away.  And of course, we are demanding no penalty and the fully benefits of the EU whilst tearing up our contribution.  The UK in short wants to have it’s cake and eat it.


The whole thing is embarrassing.  The UK is making a fool of itself on the European and international stage.  We are fast becoming a joke, and a joke with no government.


 As for the options.  Well one of the options being touted is the Norway deal, which we are told is still on the table - European Free Trade Association (Efta).  But it’s looking increasingly unlikely – Norway is looking to find a way of blocking us.


According to Heidi Nordby Lunde, a leading Norwegian politican, allowing Britain into a Norway style deal with the EU is like having an
Quote
“abusive partner spiking the drinks and inviting them to a Christmas party”. 
She goes on to say that it isn’t in Norway’s interest to have Britain as partners in their deal;
Quote
“I think you would mess it all up for us, the way you have messed it all up for yourselves”
So it’s not just the EU that is loosing it patience with us.  A great many countries round the globe think we have lost the plot – and the truth is we have.  We are seen as the petty little villain no-one wants to be in the same room with. 



Meanwhile Tory MP Priti Patel suggested that reports that there could be food shortages in Ireland come a NO DEAL BREXIT should have been used a leverage against Dublin during negotiations over the backstop.  How low can we sink?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 December 2018, 07:10:10 PM
Ach time fae some funnies;
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuFATw6WkAE_MzH.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 11 December 2018, 07:10:56 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuEy4C-W4AAcEra.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 11 December 2018, 11:02:10 PM
Quote
A nation belittled and treated with contempt by the rest of Europe

Oh dear oh dear, the poor old UK being bullied by the other 27.   Yup they have all united together to bully us.  It’s all their fault.


I didn't once use the word bully.
you did. Twice.
freudian slip mate?



 



 

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 12:17:41 AM
Farage is at least an honourable man. When he got what he campaigned for he stood down.
Stephen Waxy-Lemon is a racist criminal c*nt who should be locked up and the key thrown away.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 09:15:32 AM

Confidence vote in May's leadership tonight.


NO second referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 10:22:13 AM
.... and no exit at the end of March either, if they have to elect a new leader.
Here's the latest odds :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 10:51:34 AM

Tory Brexiters demand new leadership vote insisting ‘the will of the MPs’ has changed since 2016.


A spokesperson for the 1922 committee said, “The last vote was over two years ago, and a lot has changed in that time. We voted at the time for what we thought was going to happen, but it hasn’t turned out that way – so we get to change our minds and vote again. That’s how democracy works you see. Theresa promised us things that in hindsight were never deliverable, and that is an affront to the democratic principles we all work under in parliament. She must be held accountable, and those of us that fell for her mistruths should be given the opportunity to change our minds. Theresa must go. If our MPs are unable to change their minds, then this nation ceases to be a democracy.”


 :rollin



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 11:29:08 AM

I disagree with them holding this no-confidence vote. She should be allowed to continue her talks re the deal without all this distraction. If the deal fails, then No Deal it is :) . If that's made perfectly clear to the EU it should focus their minds a little. They have a habit of making last minute deals and resolutions.

NO second referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 11:49:15 AM
The EU hold all the cards. They are laughing at us.
Theresa was meant to be meeting Leo Varadkar today to discuss the backstop and border. Meeting now cancelled.
Yet another example of Tories putting their party above the interests of the country.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 12:09:25 PM

Of course The Labour Party never put party before country do they? :lol .


I hope she wins by a clear margin tonight, then she can carry on where she left off tomorrow.


What time is the vote?.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 12 December 2018, 12:14:12 PM

Stephen Waxy-Lemon is a racist criminal c*nt who should be locked up and the key thrown away.
That's a genius idea.
So without any grounds, you would illegally imprison  him indefinitely.
So, tell me what despicable crime has he committed to get such a sentence ?
I'm sure you have proof of his racism or are you just repeating the rhetoric of the great unwashed and MSM.
Maybe speaking the truth is a crime in your books.
This is actually an interesting social experiment.
Perhaps the Fascist is closer to home than you thought. :rollin


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 01:17:38 PM
How about convicted of mortgage fraud. How about convicted of travelling on a false passport. How about the pending prosecution for contempt of court.
He's scum.
I suggest again, you look up the definition of 'fascist'.


Oh and your very small writing just about sums up what you've said  :lol

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 01:22:56 PM
Quote
I hope she wins by a clear margin tonight, then she can carry on where she left off tomorrow.What time is the vote?.

So do I. 6-8, result by 9
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 12 December 2018, 02:20:40 PM
How about convicted of mortgage fraud. How about convicted of travelling on a false passport. How about the pending prosecution for contempt of court.
He's scum.
I suggest again, you look up the definition of 'fascist'.


Oh and your very small writing just about sums up what you've said  :lol

 Not everything is black and white and not everything you hear is necessarily true.
Let's get the facts right before you just repeat stuff.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIlPT87KzDk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIlPT87KzDk)





Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 02:39:56 PM
Yeah yeah whatever.........  :rolleyes


Just for your information, I ate out at a halal restaurant last night, and I'm still alive.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 02:51:40 PM
Quote
Of course The Labour Party never put party before country do they?

No, its not their turn  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 04:39:15 PM
Quote
Of course The Labour Party never put party before country do they?

No, its not their turn  ;)

Thank foc for that :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 04:44:10 PM
The EU hold all the cards. They are laughing at us.
I should think they are, the money they've had out of us :rolleyes .
They'd be crying if we came out properly.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 05:32:23 PM
Quote
How about convicted of mortgage fraud. How about convicted of travelling on a false passport. How about the pending prosecution for contempt of court.
He's scum.
I suggest again, you look up the definition of 'fascist'.
Indeed.
 
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon,
Convictions for drugs offenses and assault. 
Jailed in 2005 for assaulting an off-duty policeman.
Convicted in 2011 of leading a brawl involving 100 ‘football fans’.
2012 held on the charge of having entered the United States illegally on a false passport and sentenced to 10mnths in the UK.
2012 sentenced to 18mnths for mortgage fraud.
Member of the BNP.
Founding member of the fascist EDF.
 He is a violent, racist, fascist thieving piece of shit.  Absolute utter foccing scum.

 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 06:08:13 PM
Oh I should mention that Stephen Christopher Yaxley's pseudonym is taken from a prominent member of the "Men In Gear" (MIG) football hooligan crew, which follows Luton Town Football Club.[16] The member named Tommy Robinson wrote two books about his 25 years of hooliganism.
Says it all really.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 06:25:40 PM
Yeah I'd heard it was taken from a football yob. Why though, and what's the significance of this particular one?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon,Convictions for drugs offenses and assault.  Jailed in 2005 for assaulting an off-duty policeman.Convicted in 2011 of leading a brawl involving 100 ‘football fans’.2012 held on the charge of having entered the United States illegally on a false passport and sentenced to 10mnths in the UK.2012 sentenced to 18mnths for mortgage fraud.Member of the BNP.Founding member of the fascist EDF. He is a violent, racist, fascist thieving piece of shit.  Absolute utter foccing scum

I believe he has YouTube videos explaining all these away....  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 12 December 2018, 07:49:58 PM
Waxy-Lemon  :lol that is funny though.
 But the establishment has for a long time wanted him out of the picture they don't like it when people speak an unauthorized narrative that "they" think will harm cohesion.(stand by fazersharp for the reply "like -blah-blah"--- pick an extreme example to make a one off point  :z :z :z :z :z ) 
If you believe half the stuff you are told by the establishment left or right then good for you - carry on watching I'm a celebrity and have a nice life.
FYI I don't believe in just about anything I am told by the political class.I have come to my conclusions through my own experience and my judgment has seen me well for the last x- number of years. (that and BEER)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: tommyardin on 12 December 2018, 07:56:38 PM
Waxy-Lemon  :lol that is funny though.
 But the establishment has for a long time wanted him out of the picture they don't like it when people speak an unauthorized narrative that "they" think will harm cohesion.(stand by fazersharp for the reply "like -blah-blah"--- pick an extreme example to make a one off point  :z :z :z :z :z ) 
If you believe half the stuff you are told by the establishment then good for you - carry on watching I'm a celebrity and have a nice life.
FYI I don't believe in just about anything I am told by the political class.I have come to my conclusions through my own experience and my judgment has seen me well for the last x- number of years. (that and BEER)


But mostly beer
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 08:00:50 PM
Um I wouldn't watch 'Celebrity' if you paid me, and I'm quite capable of spotting what is and isn't the truth.
He is guilty by his own actions, and is a racist violent thug who is intent on creating division where it doesn't exist. You are right though, society doesn't want them.
Those who try to defend him are either deluded or his supporters.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 12 December 2018, 08:09:01 PM
I am neither deluded or a supporter.
I don't judge a man by his past. It's what they do at the present which counts.
No one ever talks about the charity work or help for homeless veterans he's involved with.
Like I said, I don't agree with everything which includes any involvement with BNP or EDL (although I understand why it was formed) or football hooliganism but someone has got to look out for vulnerable underage children and the threat extremists pose to them,
Something he's been trying to do for many years.
This is the reason I won't jump on the bash Tommy bandwagon.

A lot of people have got skeletons in the cupboard but having such a high profile it's inevitable these are going to be brought up and used against you.

The fact remains is you would see this man locked up indefinitely, that's just an extreme and inhumane statement and would be a worse crime than anything he's ever done.
Think about that, you'd lock him up forever without just cause and throw away the key you said
That's just a stupid thing to say from a supposed liberal minded member of society.
God help anyone who's made mistakes in the past if everyone thought like you.


You say there is no division. That statement couldn't be further from the truth.
Remember, we are not talking about peaceful Muslims here.
These are radical extremists, the division couldn't be any further apart.














Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 08:19:11 PM
Votings closed. She's got it in the bag ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 09:05:08 PM
May wins. 200 votes for, 117 against.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 09:25:34 PM
Quote
You say there is no division. That statement couldn't be further from the truth.Remember, we are not talking about peaceful Muslims here.These are radical extremists, the division couldn't be any further apart.



So you've changed it from 'he's innocent' to 'it's all behind him'. I'll put you down as deluded then.
There are radical right wing extremists. Those who killed Jo Cox and Makram Ali were inspired by Yaxley - Lennon and his supporters.


Actually, I'm not even going to debate this piece of shit with you.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 09:28:56 PM
Quote
May wins. 200 votes for, 117 against.
Just seen Rees - Mogg on the telly. Not much really changes. We've just lost another day.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 12 December 2018, 09:36:16 PM
Um I wouldn't watch 'Celebrity' if you paid me,
Then indeed you have proved yourself to be part of the champagne socialist elite ------------ I would totally watch it it you paid me.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 12 December 2018, 09:39:47 PM
Um I wouldn't watch 'Celebrity' if you paid me,
Then indeed you have proved yourself to be part of the champagne socialist elite ------------ I would totally watch it it you paid me.
But on the other hand I would pay to see Mogg get angry. That man dose not blink. If only Moggy was more faragey and knocked some heads together. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 09:40:41 PM
Quote
I am neither deluded or a supporter.
I don't judge a man by his past. It's what they do at the present which counts.
No one ever talks about the charity work or help for homeless veterans he's involved with.
Like I said, I don't agree with everything which includes any involvement with BNP or EDL (although I understand why it was formed) or football hooliganism but someone has got to look out for vulnerable underage children and the threat extremists pose to them,
Something he's been trying to do for many years.
This is the reason I won't jump on the bash Tommy bandwagon.

A lot of people have got skeletons in the cupboard but having such a high profile it's inevitable these are going to be brought up and used against you.

The fact remains is you would see this man locked up indefinitely, that's just an extreme and inhumane statement and would be a worse crime than anything he's ever done.
Think about that, you'd lock him up forever without just cause and throw away the key you said
That's just a stupid thing to say from a supposed liberal minded member of society.
God help anyone who's made mistakes in the past if everyone thought like you.


You say there is no division. That statement couldn't be further from the truth.
Remember, we are not talking about peaceful Muslims here.
These are radical extremists, the division couldn't be any further apart.
Fuck him he's scum.
And fuck knows what the Oxford Union were thinking of.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 12 December 2018, 10:04:14 PM
Quote
May wins. 200 votes for, 117 against.
Just seen Rees - Mogg on the telly. Not much really changes. We've just lost another day.

Yep a waste of everyones time really :\
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 12 December 2018, 10:18:45 PM
Quote
Then indeed you have proved yourself to be part of the champagne socialist elite ------------ I would totally watch it it you paid me.
No, you're just poor. Probably lost your last 30 bob in a card game scam  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 10:31:31 PM
Quote
Then indeed you have proved yourself to be part of the champagne socialist elite ------------ I would totally watch it it you paid me.
I’m all for champagne socialism.  Everybody should have the right to drink champagne every day! :lol
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 10:36:17 PM
 As for Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, it’s interesting to note that your great man continues to be proudly known by his pseudonym Tommy Robinson, and in doing so he celebrates thuggery and violence.


 
Dazza, you might also want to consider that your Great Grandfather fought to free us from people like Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 12 December 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Time fae a funny,
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuPcB7PX4AIvoBT.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 12 December 2018, 10:39:00 PM
Actually,  he was known as a Tommy too  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 13 December 2018, 06:03:46 AM

Fuck him he's scum.
And fuck knows what the Oxford Union were thinking of.
Well, apparently that's how some people make informed opinions by sitting quietly and listening to the other side of the story. Who'd have thought it.
Interesting to hear the hecklers outside calling him a fascist and racist and trying their best to silence him.
Guess they already had their opinions of him based on what they'd been told or read.
I'll leave this touchy subject alone now but will say this.
It's funny how yet again anyone with a different view point gets called names, I think deluded was the latest one.
We're all entitled to have our own opinions and view points and given the choice I would rather be one of the people sitting quietly inside listening than the other group outside shouting abuse.
Give everyone a chance I say and don't be too quick to judge.
I said before, nothing is ever black and white. There are many shades of grey in between.


And as for my Great Grandad and Grandad fighting against people like Tommy Robinson or Stephen Laxley Lennon or what ever his name is.
He was never the enemy.
The real enemy are the establishment and police involved in the cover up of prolific sex trafficking of vulnerable teenagers and children and those who have set out to destroy John  Wedger.... Time  will tell it's probably the same people that are responsible for wanting to silence TR.







Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 December 2018, 07:47:24 AM

If The EU are at all reasonable or sensible they'll try to accommodate Mrs May's requirements to give her deal a chance of getting through Parliament now.


I don't hold out much hope of that though :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 December 2018, 10:25:40 AM
Quote
If The EU are at all reasonable or sensible they'll try to accommodate Mrs May's requirements to give her deal a chance of getting through Parliament now.
I don't hold out much hope of that though

I'm not sure what more they can do. According to the UK it's all about the 'backstop', which is just about putting off the exit. What the EU are saying is for the UK to ditch it unilaterally would cause a (later) 'no deal' /hard border exit, if that's what we want. It's totally up to the UK. Nothing for the EU to concede.
This is all about May trying to convince Parliament that there is something to be gained. The numbers still don't add up. When she goes back to Parliament after Xmas and fails to get her deal through, Labour will call for a no confidence vote. The DUP will have given up on her and she may well lose that. Article 50 postponed, General Election.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 December 2018, 10:28:00 AM

Time fae a funny,
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuPcB7PX4AIvoBT.jpg)


Well get on with it then :rolleyes . We're still waiting fae the funny.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 December 2018, 10:42:44 AM
OK I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 December 2018, 11:01:33 AM

That's Juncker's breakfast isn't it?. Well, minus the 'food' :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 December 2018, 11:05:59 AM

I've got a good one...."This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide".
 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 13 December 2018, 11:52:48 AM
You've forgotten to add   ''....... if only we could work out what that is ''  :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 December 2018, 02:08:37 PM
Quote
Well get on with it then :rolleyes . We're still waiting fae the funny.
 
Perhaps you are having a sense of humour failure YamFazFan.
I’ll see if I can help;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuTTSiVXcAADw3v.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 13 December 2018, 04:58:53 PM
Quote
Well get on with it then :rolleyes . We're still waiting fae the funny.
 
Perhaps you are having a sense of humour failure YamFazFan.
I’ll see if I can help;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuTTSiVXcAADw3v.jpg)
No. Ta for trying, but it's still not revived my sense of humour :\ .
Try a funny from the other side. See if that works ;) .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 December 2018, 06:11:34 PM
Quote
No. Ta for trying, but it's still not revived my sense of humour ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/undecided.gif[/url]) .
Try a funny from the other side. See if that works ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/wink.gif[/url]) .

Well go on then........give us a laugth.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 13 December 2018, 06:12:31 PM
Meanwhile;

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuS3W5rX4AEoOe1.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 December 2018, 06:13:59 AM

It's clear that The EU want May's deal to fail. They're hoping that there's going to be a second referendum and The UK goes crawling back to them with Its tail between its legs.


We should just come out with No Deal now.


NO second referendum.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: celticdog on 14 December 2018, 07:44:57 AM

It's clear that The EU want May's deal to fail. They're hoping that there's going to be a second referendum and The UK goes crawling back to them with Its tail between its legs.


We should just come out with No Deal now.


NO second referendum.


Yes, time to call their bluff. If they've made it clear there is no more negotiation time to walk away, there's a lot that can happen between now and the 29th of March 2019.
May and her advisers need to learn how to play hardball with these Jokers.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 December 2018, 10:39:07 AM

I see The Blair Creature is calling for a second referendum now. Bet Remain are glad they've got him on the team :lol .


Why do Remainers keep saying that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for?. They voted Remain. How would they know :rolleyes .
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 December 2018, 12:11:40 PM
Because Remainers knew exactly what they were voting for. Unfortunately the question `Leave ' should have been amended to' Leave and then what?  '. It didn't say' Leave with no deal'. Parliament won't pass a No Deal exit however much people squeal.
The blame for this rejection is purely on May not the EU. She knew where they stood. It was just a delaying tactic to avoid the defeat in Parliament.
My prediction is still
1 Defeat for her deal in Parliament
2. Labour calls No Confidence vote in Parliament
3. She loses
4. Article 50 Postponed
All she's done is delay it until after the new year. Just watch.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 12:39:03 PM
As predicted they have thrown May back in the channel just like they did with Cam-moron and not only that they slapped her in the face as they pushed her.You cannot negotiate with these people while you have promised them 35b.
 NO DEAL we will leave on WTO rules and we negotiate from that position - they get NO 35b and if they want any of it then they will have to give us what we want for every £ of it. 

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 14 December 2018, 01:51:29 PM
Because Remainers knew exactly what they were voting for. Unfortunately the question `Leave ' should have been amended to' Leave and then what?  '. It didn't say' Leave with no deal'. Parliament won't pass a No Deal exit however much people squeal.
The blame for this rejection is purely on May not the EU. She knew where they stood. It was just a delaying tactic to avoid the defeat in Parliament.
My prediction is still
1 Defeat for her deal in Parliament
2. Labour calls No Confidence vote in Parliament
3. She loses
4. Article 50 Postponed
All she's done is delay it until after the new year. Just watch.

I disagree completely. We knew what we wanted just as much as remainers did. Your taking this whole argument back to "we voted to remain because we are clever. you voted to leave because you are stupid/racist etc etc". why don't you just say it straight out? BTW Most of us who voted to leave don't give a monkeys what it takes to get out. we voted to get out and thats pretty much it. Whatever my reasons, or anybody elses who voted to leave are, they are exactly that. My reasons. Ill stand by them whatever the outcome. Not because Im stupid/racist/xenophobic etc. But because I had a vote like everybody else, and I used it as I thought best.
Thats been one of the biggest differences between the remain/leave argument. Leavers have attacked the EU. Remainers have attacked Leavers. Its as though remainers have some sort of massive sense of self righteous entitlement to adopt the high ground. You should really look at how that worked out for the EU.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 14 December 2018, 05:46:00 PM
Agree wholeheartedly with Ogri/fazersharp/yamfazfa/celticdog. Time to walk away. The EU seeks to see us as unsuccessful, as a warning to those other states who may at some point consider leaving. I we switch to WTO trade, then so be it. I voted out, not because I'm stupid and don't understand politics or economics, but because I believe it would be better for us as a nation. I still do.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 06:27:49 PM
 
Quote
My reasons. Ill stand by them whatever the outcome.
But like most other BREXITEERS you haven’t given any reasons.  I mean so far we have;
 
BREXITEER foccers reasons for leaving the EU are
1.        Day light running lights
2.       Curved bananas
3.       Dazza’a Great Grandfather got shot in the leg by a German 100 years ago.
 


And at the end of the day this is still all about the Tories.  The referendum was offered on the basis of killing UKIP and wining an election.
I watched a bit of Question Time last night.  And what I saw was two Tory MP’s fighting with each other on the UK’s most popular politics programme.


Meanwhile May has just seemingly discovered that what she has been telling us all for the last fortnight is in fact true.  After over 2 years of negotiating a deal – she got a deal – 27 countries and May agreed it – and May told us this is the deal.  Yup it still is the deal.


Quote
I we switch to WTO trade, then so be it. I voted out, not because I'm stupid and don't understand politics or economics, but because I believe it would be better for us as a nation.
You believe it would be better?  In what way?  The Bank of England forecasts a financial crises worse than that of 2008 in the event of a NO DEAL BREXIT.  An economic crash.  A fall in GDP of around 8%.  7.5% rise in unemployment.


 
But then you can all spout on about a NO DEAL BREXIT all you want, when the reality is that parliament will act to stop it.  There are only 2 or 3 dozen MP’s that would entertain a NO DEAL BREXIT.  So forget NO DEAL – it will not happen.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 14 December 2018, 06:40:48 PM
Here is my prediction....


Scotland is going to break away from the mainland and drift up towards the Arctic ( where it belongs) and on certain nights, when atmospheric conditions are just right, you can just make out the squeaky little voice of VNA banging on about how thick all Brexiteers are whilst he's being haunted by my Great Grandad jabbing him in the arse with his bayonet.


Tommy Robinson is going to move up the ranks in UKIP and become prime minister.


And mtread is going to be sentenced to life imprisonment in solitary confinement without parole(effectively throwing away the key) for daring to suggest the new facist prime minister should be locked up indefinitely.


Meanwhile under WTO rules  the UK is doing very nicely thank you but as usual, we the people will just continue to be free range humans on a tax farm. :D



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 06:49:03 PM
 
Quote
My prediction is still
 1 Defeat for her deal in Parliament
 2. Labour calls No Confidence vote in Parliament
 3. She loses
 4. Article 50 Postponed
 All she's done is delay it until after the new year. Just watch.

 
You may be right, however what happens after that?

The DUP would have to vote against the government.  Even if the government is voted down, they have two weeks to call a second vote – two weeks to strike a deal with the DUP.


Even if the government fails, a general election throws the country into turmoil.  There is also a saying that Juncker always gets what he wants.  I think it would be extraordinary, but there is a the risk that the EU would refuse to suspend article 50 (I think they will be happy to do so) – this would then force MP’s to call an emergency vote to cancel article 50 therefore binning BREXIT.


I don’t see that working out in the long term.  It’s like the Tories changing the Prime Minister – new face – same problem.  A general election – new government – same problem.   

 
I think we are heading for a temporary cross-party government.  Or at least a cross party committee to solve BREXIT. 



So vote of No Confidence (won with Labour doing a deal with the DUP) – article 50 suspended – a cross party committee set up with the DUP holding a guarantee that the Good Friday Agreement will not be undermined in any shape or form.


And hopefully a New Deal based around single market membership.

 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 06:54:07 PM
Time fae another funny :lol

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuUXMeTWoAEsJGb.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 14 December 2018, 07:31:54 PM
Quote
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
That’s incorrect, as I’ve pointed out before VAT replaced the purchase tax in the UK.
Quote
So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Agricola you continue to blame the EU for the policies of successive UK governments, and it appears local councils too. :eek
You were given a ball to kick, and like many others you kicked it hard.  But I’m afraid you’ve kicked the wrong ball.


So tell me how Im better off in the EU then


Still waiting
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 07:41:15 PM
You believe it would be better?  In what way?  The Bank of England forecasts a financial crises worse than that of 2008 in the event of a NO DEAL BREXIT.  An economic crash.  A fall in GDP of around 8%.  7.5% rise in unemployment.
 
You still don't get it do you, we don't care if we are poorer (in financial terms ) in the short term. And this is why that scaremongering is does not work, the people who have voted to leave mostly have lost jobs before - have faced hardship and got through it. The remainers on the other hand don't want their comfortable lives with jobs for life to change -they have never experienced tough times, a lot of the issues that people voted to leave for simply never touch their comfy lives and they want to stay in the EU purely for their own personal pockets.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 08:03:17 PM
 
Quote
You still don't get it do you, we don't care if we are poorer (in financial terms ) in the short term.  And this is why that scaremongering is does not work, the people who have voted to leave mostly have lost jobs before - have faced hardship and got through it.

So you want to trash the economy, create a financial crises, create mass unemployment, increase the wealth gap, impose poverty on millions, and for what?  No I don't get it.  Turkeys voting for Christmas.

 
And apparently because you don’t like daylight running lights and graded bananas, both of which will still be with us after we ‘leave’ (if we leave). :eek :eek
That sure makes sense Fazersharp. :'(
Quote
The remainers on the other hand don't want their comfortable lives with jobs for life to change -they have never experienced tough times
I think you mean Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris, David Davis, Gove, Leadsom and so forth.  They will not face any hardship whatsoever.  They will prosper at your expense.  This is simply the continuation of the project Thatcher started in 1979.  Remember 4 million unemployed?
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 08:18:49 PM
 
Quote
The remainers on the other hand don't want their comfortable lives with jobs for life to change -they have never experienced tough times
I think you mean Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris, David Davis, Gove, Leadsom and so forth. 
From this very forum
Quote
I want to stay in because it's best for me personally.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 08:21:15 PM
Who are you quoting, and what is your point?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 08:21:46 PM
Say no more really
 
I'm Scottish first, European second and if push comes to shove I'll reluctantly admit to being British.  Certainly the EU acts as a buffer against the more extreme Tory policies. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 08:23:22 PM
Who are you quoting, and what is your point?
I am not going to name them because they have not posted for a while and they are not here to reply
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 08:29:42 PM
 
So you want to trash the economy, create a financial crises, create mass unemployment, increase the wealth gap, impose poverty on millions, because you don’t like daylight running lights and graded bananas
:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :z
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 08:31:30 PM
Quote
Say no more really
 Quote from: VNA on 28 February 2016, 07:46:52 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,19420.msg225464.html#msg225464[/url]) I'm Scottish first, European second and if push comes to shove I'll reluctantly admit to being British.  Certainly the EU acts as a buffer against the more extreme Tory policies. 

Precisely, which is why the more extreme right wing Tories wish rid of the EU.  How many times do I need to say so.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: VNA on Today at 08:03:17 PM (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288916.html#msg288916)
Quote
<blockquote> 
Quote<blockquote>The remainers on the other hand don't want their comfortable lives with jobs for life to change -they have never experienced tough times</blockquote>I think you mean Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris, David Davis, Gove, Leadsom and so forth. 
</blockquote>From this very forum
Quote<blockquote>I want to stay in because it's best for me personally.</blockquote>


Quote
Quote from: VNA on Today at 08:21:15 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288918.html#msg288918[/url])<blockquote>Who are you quoting, and what is your point?
</blockquote>I am not going to name them because they have not posted for a while and they are not here to reply

So not a quote then.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: celticdog on 14 December 2018, 08:35:16 PM
Some charts- It's official, Scotland is definitely British and the UK needs to move into a new bubble!

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 08:37:34 PM
Certainly the EU acts as a buffer against the more extreme Tory policies. which is why the more extreme right wing Tories wish rid of the EU.  How many times do I need to say so.
So VNA wants to stay in the EU to protect himself from the big bad nasty Westminster.
 There we have it finally-- the big reason VNA wants to stay in the EU.
 As I said remainders want to stay purely for their own personal reasons. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Dudeofrude on 14 December 2018, 08:46:52 PM
https://youtu.be/1NpExkViy6M
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 09:02:48 PM
Quote
So VNA wants to stay in the EU to protect himself from the big bad nasty Westminster.
 There we have it finally-- the big reason VNA wants to stay in the EU.
 As I said remainders want to stay purely for their own personal reasons. 

I think I’ve made it clear throughout this thread why it is in the best interests of the UK to REMAIN in the EU.  EU employment laws and legislation are just one of many reasons for REMAINING.


 
So far we have had two, apparently compelling, reasons to LEAVE – daylight running lights and legislation relating the grading of bananas.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 09:06:20 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuZlGQhX4AAfCZ8.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 09:13:56 PM

I think I’ve made it clear throughout this thread why it is in the best interests of the UK to REMAIN in the EU.  EU employment laws and legislation are just one of many reasons for REMAINING.

So what's stopping us adopting all the laws that we chose to keep. We leave - we take on all the laws as is and as we go we are then free to keep/amend/ delete/add new as we see fit.

  On a side note there is just no winding you up is there --- I gave it my best shot - but nothing, is it the scotish cold or the whisky that has frozen your trigger.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 09:33:30 PM
Quote
So what's stopping us adopting all the laws that we chose to keep. We leave - we take on all the laws as is and as we go we are then free to keep/amend/ delete/add new as we see fit.
Many of those laws have already been dilluted by New Labour or Tory vetos.  The Tories will bin the lot.  The Tories believe in a low wage economy and a hire and fire culture.  The BREXITEERS in the Tory party represent the extreme right of Tory ideology.
Quote
On a side note there is just no winding you up is there --- I gave it my best shot - but nothing, is it the scotish cold or the whisky that has frozen your trigger.   
Sorry I missed that - didn't even notice.   Your habit of miss-quoting me is annoying - but it's the internet - I'm not going to get bothered about it.
But seriously BREXIT really pisses me off.  Why?  Foccing why?  Can we just not stop this madness :'(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 14 December 2018, 09:44:16 PM
Your habit of miss-quoting me is annoying
Thanks for the tip  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 09:57:12 PM
 
Quote
Quote from: VNA on Today at 09:33:30 PM ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,24678.msg288931.html#msg288931[/url])<blockquote> Your habit of miss-quoting me is annoying
</blockquote> Thanks for the tip  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/wink.gif[/url])


See there you go again.

Not bothered.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 14 December 2018, 10:26:41 PM
Quote
So VNA wants to stay in the EU to protect himself from the big bad nasty Westminster.
 There we have it finally-- the big reason VNA wants to stay in the EU.
 As I said remainders want to stay purely for their own personal reasons. 

I think I’ve made it clear throughout this thread that I am a massive Knobhead and really should stay away from the keyboard. I just can't help myself, I'm a troll and I know it but when I said  why it is in the best interests of the UK to REMAIN in the EU I really meant Scotland and my own personal circumstances. Some will say   EU employment laws and legislation are just one of many reasons for REMAINING but the reality is they're not worth the paper they are written on because temporary, zero hours contracts which many of  the UK citizens are on makes a mockery of EU employment laws.


 
So far we have had two, apparently compelling, reasons to LEAVE – daylight running lights and legislation relating the grading of bananas.


Don't forget about my Great Grandad
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 December 2018, 10:39:41 PM
Quote
Your taking this whole argument back to "we voted to remain because we are clever. you voted to leave because you are stupid/racist etc etc". why don't you just say it straight out?
What a pathetic rediculous statement  :rolleyes  by the way it's 'You're'  :)


Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 14 December 2018, 10:40:26 PM
Quote
Don't forget about my Great Grandad
Sorry Dazza.  Was thinking about Fazersharp's reasons there.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 14 December 2018, 11:27:22 PM
Two pieces of EU legislation which I presume you are happy to do away with :
1.EU motor insurance regulations direct that your UK motorcycle insurance automatically covers you for 3rd party liability in any other EU country, without paying an extra premium
2. Your mobile phone roaming charges cover all EU countries. So 'roam like home' includes voice, sms and data.
All benefits from  being part of the 'single market', which we will lose.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 15 December 2018, 12:04:19 AM
Two pieces of EU legislation which I presume you are happy to do away with :
1.EU motor insurance regulations direct that your UK motorcycle insurance automatically covers you for 3rd party liability in any other EU country, without paying an extra premium
2. Your mobile phone roaming charges cover all EU countries. So 'roam like home' includes voice, sms and data.
All benefits from  being part of the 'single market', which we will lose.

 You can dump the 3rd party only - almost useless, better to pay extra and get something worth while which I would of thought that anyone who is travelling to the EU would do anyway. Its not like its really useful for those times that you find your self in the Eu by accident  :rolleyes . And do you actually think that premiums are not loaded to add the cover- we do pay extra but we have no choice to or not. 
Roaming - yes we will keep that one.
And that's my point we don't have to throw it all out, we keep what is good and useful and correct for our country and amend others to suit us and keep others. Our choice.   
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 15 December 2018, 12:10:32 AM

Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!
Because a Norway type deal was not on the ballot paper - that's how he knows people did not vote for it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 15 December 2018, 02:44:47 AM
Interesting article in the Washington post by Henry Olsen worth a read unless your from north of the border or an ex customs and excise worker
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: bludclot on 15 December 2018, 06:56:05 AM

Quote
Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!


There's a mistake there - 28% of the population voted to leave. I think your quoted 52% refers to those that voted?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 December 2018, 07:32:24 AM


Quote
Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!


There's a mistake there - 28% of the population voted to leave. I think your quoted 52% refers to those that voted?


what percentage of the population voted Remain?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 15 December 2018, 10:48:19 AM
Quote
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
That’s incorrect, as I’ve pointed out before VAT replaced the purchase tax in the UK.
Quote
So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Agricola you continue to blame the EU for the policies of successive UK governments, and it appears local councils too. :eek
You were given a ball to kick, and like many others you kicked it hard.  But I’m afraid you’ve kicked the wrong ball.



So tell me how Im better off in the EU then


Still waiting


Still waiting
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 December 2018, 11:14:33 AM

All the talk now is of a second referendum as the only way to break the deadlock.


They're saying that if the result is Leave again we're back were we are now and Parliament will still reject it.


If the result is Remain they'll accept it and we stay in forever more.







Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 11:33:19 AM
Quote
All the talk now is of a second referendum as the only way to break the deadlock.
 
 
They're saying that if the result is Leave again we're back were we are now and Parliament will still reject it.
 
 
If the result is Remain they'll accept it and we stay in forever more.

There are a few problems with a referendum.  The first is time.  We can’t hold a carefully considered referendum and meet the march deadline.


The second is the question.  My suggestion is – May’s Deal or Cancel article 50.  My reasoning is that May’s deal is the only deal on the table (so we are told), and though it will cost the UK economically it’s the not the hellish prospect that NO DEAL is.  However, there are almost endless options for the question, and the question at the end of the day has to satisfy the public.  And while I can understand those who call for NO DEAL on the voting slip, will parliament whom is overwhelmingly opposed to NO DEAL agree to risk such a disaster?


3.   As for parliament rejecting the result.  If the question is agreed and the legislation passed to make the result legally binding – well that is that.  Whatever people decide must be enacted.
 
That’s why I think a cross party committee is a better and more likely solution. 
Deadlock is indeed where we are right now.  It’s where we were always going to end up following the LEAVE result in 2016.  David Cameron opened one big focc off can o worms. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 December 2018, 02:57:58 PM

I've got a bad feeling about all this. I can see us Leavers getting robbed of our victory :( .



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 03:51:32 PM
Quote
Because a Norway type deal was not on the ballot paper - that's how he knows people did not vote for it.
Neither was 'No Deal' although you all seem to think it was......
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 04:01:59 PM
Quote
All the talk now is of a second referendum as the only way to break the deadlock.They're saying that if the result is Leave again we're back were we are now and Parliament will still reject it.If the result is Remain they'll accept it and we stay in forever more.

Interesting article in the Guardian today (yeah I know left wing elitist rag blah blah). As you say, another referendum cannot be Remain/Leave as we would be no further forward. If it's a two choice referendum it's either got to be No Deal/Theresa's Deal, Theresa's deal /Remain or No deal /Remain. So something would have to be eliminated making one lot unhappy.
The other option they suggested was putting 3 on the paper, and allow a second preference vote. The worry with that is we all end up with Theresa's deal  :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 15 December 2018, 04:04:38 PM
Has anyone seen the vid of junker yesterday ruffling up a Woman's hair. What ever happened to "me too" Now if that was Borris who did that it would be called a sexual assault and there would be calls for him to be sacked. How come Junker has not been sacked ----- oh wait a minute, no one can.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 04:11:26 PM
Quote
Has anyone seen the vid of junker yesterday ruffling up a Woman's hair. What ever happened to "me too" Now if that was Borris who did that it would be called a sexual assault and there would be calls for him to be sacked.
No I've got better things to do. Was it Theresa?  :D Actually, if it was Boris it would be a sexual assault. Incidentally, where is Boris? He's gone very quiet lately. Sulking because he can't make a leadership challenge for another 12 months?  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 04:22:43 PM
Actually, while we're on the subject of sexual assaults, interesting to see that two Tory MPs who had the whip suspended because of allegations of sexual misconduct were suddenly 'unsuspended' just so they could take part of the 'confidence' vote for May. So it just goes to show that within the Tory party,  morals take second place to power.  :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 15 December 2018, 04:42:20 PM
Here you are
 Sorry... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIV-WIctcCQ#)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 04:57:46 PM
I just see white, and it's not even snowing (yet)  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 December 2018, 05:44:38 PM
Uh oh. Sounds like you know who's been sampling the VSOP with a bit too much enthusiasm again ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 05:45:45 PM
VSOP! That's European isn't it?  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 06:28:01 PM
Quote
Interesting article in the Guardian today (yeah I know left wing elitist rag blah blah). As you say, another referendum cannot be Remain/Leave as we would be no further forward. If it's a two choice referendum it's either got to be No Deal/Theresa's Deal, Theresa's deal /Remain or No deal /Remain. So something would have to be eliminated making one lot unhappy.
The other option they suggested was putting 3 on the paper, and allow a second preference vote. The worry with that is we all end up with Theresa's deal  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif[/url])
But the priority of parliament is to avoid a NO DEAL BREXIT.


Bearing in mind that;
1.       The 2016 referendum should have never been put to the people.
2.       That May tried to by-pass parliament with her deal.
3.       Further May tried to block parliament’s right to stop the whole process.
 
 
Therefore, surely, parliament must now take control.  Otherwise arguably our democracy appears to be failing.
I think we will increasingly hear of a cross party initiative over the next few days.  This may either happen by consensus or via the brutal mechanism of a no confidence vote. 
 
I think the 2 overall priorities will be;
1.       There cannot be a NO DEAL BREXIT
2.       The Good Friday Agreement must not be undermined in any shape or form.
 
Plus, initially somewhat privately across the Labour, Tories and Lib Dems (what’s left of them) the third objective will be to squash any call for a second Independence referendum.
 
If the three priorities can be agreed, then it’s not difficult to see where we end up.
 
Plus parliament will have asserted it’s power, uncertainty nipped in the bud and our economy can begin to move forwards again.  Unrest in NI averted and the integrity of the UK secured for some years to come.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 06:39:57 PM
 Talking of consensus.


What the English don’t seem to realise, and certainly the English press don’t, and indeed despite a number of coalitions in our UK history, is that a lack of majority is not the end of the world.
 
Our government here in Scotland is a minority government (apart from one term when the SNP did the impossible and won a majority).  The current SNP government cannot pass legislation without the support of others. 



Many countries right round the world operate on this basis. 



What Westminster, now needs to do, is what it thinks is not possible, but which in fact is the norm for so many countries across the globe.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 06:54:06 PM
But 'Westminster'  is already a minority government. They are only in power by forming a coalition with the Dinosaur Unionist Party  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 07:11:21 PM
Quote
But 'Westminster'  is already a minority government. They are only in power by forming a coalition with the Dinosaur Unionist Party  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])

 Well yes, sort of.  Not a coalition as the 2010 – 2015 was.  But a Tory majority via a confidence and supply agreement with the DUP.  Bought and paid for as it happens.
 
But still the idea of a true minority government operating on an issue by issue basis seeking cross party support is seen as impossible in England.
 
First past the post and an obsession with majority is partly to blame for creating this whole mess.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 15 December 2018, 07:28:58 PM
In reply, I give you the Italians....  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 08:11:24 PM
The Italian system almost makes the EU seem simple.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 December 2018, 09:13:54 PM

I was amazed that they actually gave us a referendum. Amazed that the result was Leave. Amazed that they said they'd honour that decision.


Not in the least bit amazed that it increasingly looks like it's was all for nothing. So disappointing if that happens. What will it mean for democracy?. It will alienate so many people from it. I know the Remainers would be whooping with joy, but what a hollow 'victory'.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 15 December 2018, 10:13:02 PM
 
Quote
I was amazed that they actually gave us a referendum.
It was done to win an election.
Quote
Amazed that the result was Leave.
David Cameron never considered for one second, he would loose it.  If he had, he would have never offered it in the first place. 
Quote
Amazed that they said they'd honour that decision.
What else could they do?
But I still don’t know what it is you think you have won, or what it is you want. 
Quote
Not in the least bit amazed that it increasingly looks like it's was all for nothing. So disappointing if that happens. What will it mean for democracy?. It will alienate so many people from it. I know the Remainers would be whooping with joy, but what a hollow 'victory'.
All for nothing?  What do you mean?  It’s about the Tory party.  And haven't you noticed it has claimed two Prime Ministers (May will have to go at some point), we are on our third BREXIT secretary, the cabinet has a revolving door, and we are now effectively  without government. 



Victory?  Who is winning?  What is the prize :eek   Nobody is winning in this.  And foc help us if the right-wing establishment elite represented by Mogg and others wins – as they will be the only ‘winners’.


At the end of the day we are a representative democracy.  See my post 938, it is time for our democracy to act. 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 08:05:53 AM
I see Mrs May has put The Blair Creature in his place. Well said woman :thumbup
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 December 2018, 10:31:51 AM
We probably all agree on this.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 16 December 2018, 11:20:43 AM
Agreed.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 12:19:09 PM

We probably all agree on this.


Sorry to disappoint you but....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 12:21:19 PM

We probably all agree on this.


On second thoughts yes I agree bearing in mind that we're probably going to get robbed of our Leave victory.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 December 2018, 12:33:19 PM
For different reasons....


You - 2nd referendum
Us - No Deal


 :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 16 December 2018, 12:51:28 PM
Quote
On second thoughts yes I agree bearing in mind that we're probably going to get robbed of our Leave victory.
On the plus side, a million or so folks will get to keep their jobs :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 04:17:54 PM

Quote
On second thoughts yes I agree bearing in mind that we're probably going to get robbed of our Leave victory.
On the plus side, a million or so folks will get to keep their jobs :)


Do we really employ THAT many people in Brussels?!! :eek
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 04:23:33 PM

For different reasons....


You - 2nd referendum
Us - No Deal


 :)


Yep. That's about the size of it.


I reckon that twister S.James sold us this Brexit. Typical. Probably spent about 1s/9d on it :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 16 December 2018, 04:40:07 PM
Saw this posted on FB by another Foccer, makes sense to me.
I also read somewhere that Britain coming out of the EU would be the equivalent of 9 or 11 medium sized countries leaving at the same time.
It's a disaster for the EU, they're just playing hard ball and it's time we did.



Finally some sense  Offering the obvious and what should be  final solution
 and it apparently comes from down under


Former Australian PM Tony Abbott...


"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.


Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.


The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.


But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?


A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.


Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.


Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.


Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.


Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.


Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).


UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.


As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 16 December 2018, 06:08:10 PM
Quote
Saw this posted on FB by another Foccer, makes sense to me.
I also read somewhere that Britain coming out of the EU would be the equivalent of 9 or 11 medium sized countries leaving at the same time.
It's a disaster for the EU, they're just playing hard ball and it's time we did.



Finally some sense  Offering the obvious and what should be  final solution
 and it apparently comes from down under


Former Australian PM Tony Abbott...


"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.


Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.


The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.


But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?


A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.


Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.


Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.


Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.


Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.


Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).


UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.


As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015   « Last Edit: Today at 04:50:45 PM » ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=posthistory;topic=24678.0;msg=289014[/url])

Not again. :rolleyes

Anyway, we all know NO DEAL is not an option.  Ain't gonna happen.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 06:41:01 PM
I think your throttle response is a bit slow there dazza. Pretty sure hedgetrimmer's already posted that, or most of it, in this thread.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 16 December 2018, 06:48:30 PM
Quote
Not again. :rolleyes

 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 16 December 2018, 07:20:46 PM
Ive not seen that before. But I'll drink to it. Well said that man, there is no such thing as "No Deal". Isnt that what some of us have been saying here?
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 December 2018, 07:56:53 PM
Dazza déjà vu :lol


Oh and Tony Abbott is still an arse  ;)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 16 December 2018, 08:19:17 PM
I think your throttle response is a bit slow there dazza. Pretty sure hedgetrimmer's already posted that, or most of it, in this thread.
Yes I know, but I thought if VNA can keep asking the same question over and over again and ignoring what has already been answered previously then we should start posting the same things over and over again.  :D
Plus, there are some people who probably haven't seen it because this thread has become so long, not everyone has read everything ( or can remember ......VNA  :pokefun [size=78%])[/size] :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 16 December 2018, 08:28:48 PM
Yes it's all getting a bit 'samey'  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 December 2018, 02:39:18 AM

Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that the referendum was yet to take place.


People keep going over and over the same pre-referendum arguments. Leave won. There's no need to keep on making the case for it. That part is over.


The bit I'd be most concerned about right now is the attempts being made by the Remaniacs to reverse it.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 09:45:45 AM
Latest talk in the papers is for trying to get a consensus in Parliament for a Norway type deal. Which is of course 'Leave' but remaining in the Customs Union, Single Market and Free Movement. But it's a 'Leave' and therefore 'what the people voted for' :)


Still too much about solving the problems within the Tory party, rather than doing what's best for the country (whatever that is).
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 17 December 2018, 09:56:43 AM
I can see there being civil unrest across the country.
It's spreading across Europe.
I see the French lawyers have joined in and the people in Brussels have started to stir.
People are seeing the EU for what it is......
Still unsure how tyrannical and undemocratic it is and how we'll be better off out.
This is an interesting outlook on things.




https://vimeo.com/169341443

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 December 2018, 10:06:52 AM

If Brexit gets overturned and we end up staying in The EU this issue is going to go on for eternity, except it'll be intensified by a multiple of about one hundred.


Does anyone seriously think that over 17 million people who have been diddled out of Brexit are just going to shrug their shoulders and accept that without complaint?. The Remainers must be stark, staring bonkers if they think that's going to happen.



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 10:18:48 AM
Quote
I can see there being civil unrest across the country.
It's spreading across Europe.
I see the French lawyers have joined in and the people in Brussels have started to stir.
People are seeing the EU for what it is......
They are not protesting against the EU.  They are protesting against their governments.
Which is what we should have done.  What we are doing is trying to blame the EU for the action of sucessive UK governments.
Though we may well see civil unrest if the UK leaves the EU in a NO DEAL scenario.  That is perhaps when finally those who voted to LEAVE will understand that once again they have been conned.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 10:34:43 AM
As I said above 'Leave' but closely aligned.


If people think we are heading for a 'No Deal' version of Leave, they must be stark raving bonkers.

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 10:43:23 AM
Quote
I see the French lawyers have joined in and the people in Brussels have started to stir.
The 'people in Brussels' were demonstrating against the Belgian government's adoption of a UN resolution, nothing to do with the EU. But it's always easy to blame them for everything isn't it?
Also there was a counter demonstration. This country is just as split, and I wouldn't fancy the chances of a load of old blokes against the youth of today  :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 December 2018, 11:05:59 AM

Funny how the solution to the split in this country always seems to come back to overturning Brexit and remaining in The EU :rolleyes


Remain don't give a fig about 'healing' any split. They just want to reverse democracy at any cost and then rub the Leavers noses right in it.


Like I said previously, they'd be as ungracious in victory as they are in defeat.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 11:17:46 AM
Nor do Leave if they don't support a Norway style Leave.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 December 2018, 01:29:52 PM

Don't remember voting for anything to do with Norway. That sounds like yet another Remainiac ruse to try to thwart democracy to me :rolleyes


When I voted Leave I assumed it meant a No Deal type exit.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 17 December 2018, 01:34:07 PM
The 'people in Brussels' were demonstrating against the Belgian government's adoption of a UN resolution 
The unnamed "UN resolution"
Is ---The Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration which was signed by leaders from a 164 countries in Marrakech. A number of European states, including Austria, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Slovakia, refused to formally adopt the pact, which is meant to streamline and smooth international mass migration..


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 17 December 2018, 01:36:43 PM
Quote
I can see there being civil unrest across the country.
It's spreading across Europe.
I see the French lawyers have joined in and the people in Brussels have started to stir.
People are seeing the EU for what it is......
They are not protesting against the EU.  They are protesting against their governments.
Which is what we should have done.  What we are doing is trying to blame the EU for the action of sucessive UK governments.
Though we may well see civil unrest if the UK leaves the EU in a NO DEAL scenario.  That is perhaps when finally those who voted to LEAVE will understand that once again they have been conned.


Hahaha....The French, Germans and Belgains....They are the EU....You're not grasping this are you




https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1772408416214872&id=657015324686799










Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 17 December 2018, 01:41:10 PM
Quote
I see the French lawyers have joined in and the people in Brussels have started to stir.
The 'people in Brussels' were demonstrating against the Belgian government's adoption of a UN resolution, nothing to do with the EU. But it's always easy to blame them for everything isn't it?
Also there was a counter demonstration. This country is just as split, and I wouldn't fancy the chances of a load of old blokes against the youth of today  :lol


As Fazersharp says, this was a migration pact enforced by the UN.....and who's the architect behind that ....that's right ....


https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fvoiceofeurope.com%2F2018%2F12%2Fthey-lied-the-un-migration-pact-is-legally-binding-and-could-be-valid-for-all-countries%2F&h=AT2orRNvjGLKXOB4uPjwL_SJwBWe-6Elt5TlWS2x1TUl4dtdej6FhBhUXfTGNqAEU68DhbrI-w0GmiEFVgLN5lX0Nkpp6KmdSNHpEzpLanI5spxFbjl8_lzXrxgmTUQ5JTwDIto&s=1





Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 02:17:21 PM
Quote
When I voted Leave I assumed it meant a No Deal type exit.
Well that's one. What about the other 16.9999999999999999 million? :) p
Quote
Hahaha....The French, Germans and Belgains....They are the EU....You're not grasping this are you .
:)
So are Austria, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Slovakia. If you don't understand the concept of the EU, no wonder you vote against it :rolleyes
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 17 December 2018, 02:24:37 PM
Quote
Well that's one. What about the other 16.9999999999999999 million? ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url]) p
Quote
Make that 2


Quote
Hahaha....The French, Germans and Belgains....They are the EU....You're not grasping this are you .
:)
So are Austria, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Slovakia. If you don't understand the concept of the EU, no wonder you vote against it :rolleyes

Well in that case somebody also needs to explain the concept of the EU to Austria, Hungary, Italy, Poland and Slovakia cause they ain't playin.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: steve 10562cc on 17 December 2018, 03:28:27 PM
Make that 3
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 05:10:58 PM
OK what about the other 16.9999999997 million then :lol
I see Cameron is interfering!

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 08:11:22 PM
Quote
When I voted Leave I assumed it meant a No Deal type exit.

Quote
Make that 2

Quote
Make that 3

Maist like youse wherenae peyin attention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY)




Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 17 December 2018, 08:15:22 PM
MAKE THAT 4. And Im beginning to tire a tad at the assumption that I didnt know what I was voting for. I did. And I would do the same again.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 17 December 2018, 08:17:47 PM
Quote
Prior to EU membership, i never had to pay 20% tax on anything i bought
That’s incorrect, as I’ve pointed out before VAT replaced the purchase tax in the UK.
Quote
So tell me again, how I'm better off in the EU
Agricola you continue to blame the EU for the policies of successive UK governments, and it appears local councils too. :eek
You were given a ball to kick, and like many others you kicked it hard.  But I’m afraid you’ve kicked the wrong ball.



So tell me how Im better off in the EU then


Still waiting


Still waiting


Still waiting
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 17 December 2018, 08:20:53 PM
Maist like youse wherenae peyin attention.
Where can I buy a scottish keyboard from like the one you have   :pokefun
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 17 December 2018, 08:54:01 PM
MAKE THAT 4. And Im beginning to tire a tad at the assumption that I didnt know what I was voting for. I did. And I would do the same again.

make that five. and me too.... :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 09:00:56 PM
Quote
Quote
 
    When I voted Leave I assumed it meant a No Deal type exit.
 
 
Quote
 
    Make that 2
 
 
Quote
 
    Make that 3
 
MAKE THAT 4. And Im beginning to tire a tad at the assumption that I didnt know what I was voting for. I did. And I would do the same again.
make that five. and me too.... :)
So you guys, you now tells us, voted for a NO DEAL BREXIT. 
But NO DEAL was not on the voting slip.
And nor did the LEAVE campaign advocate it.
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 17 December 2018, 09:02:57 PM
Quote
Your taking this whole argument back to "we voted to remain because we are clever. you voted to leave because you are stupid/racist etc etc". why don't you just say it straight out?
What a pathetic rediculous statement  :rolleyes  by the way it's 'You're'  :)


Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!

Although obviously with the caveat that if a leaver says it hes trying to speak for everybody and its utter arrogance, whereas if a remainer suggests his version of what everyone was or wasn't thinking when they voted leave it its totally okely dokely...  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 09:03:56 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupJtdSX4AELQqY.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Quote
Again I say, how do you know all of those who voted Leave wanted a 'No Deal' version? What gives you the right to speak for 52% of the population? How do you know that none of them wanted to leave but with a Norway type deal? What utter arrogance!

A lot of em voted for what the LEAVE campaign campaigned for.  This;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 17 December 2018, 09:09:15 PM
I didn't say they didn't mate.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 09:28:07 PM
So there we are.  Voting to LEAVE does not = NO DEAL.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 17 December 2018, 09:44:09 PM
Let's play top trumps :D


 https://youtu.be/GfjH8k3O_ZM
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 10:02:44 PM
 So I think we can all see that voting LEAVE does not necessarily mean leaving the EU without a deal – ie a NO DEAL BREXIT.


And remember the EU is an economic union.


The UK is a sovereign union.


So not only does voting leave not necessarily mean leaving the single market, it was only England and Wales that voted to LEAVE.


Two countries in this union voted to REMAIN.


So we can safely say that two countries in the union, along with ¾ of our united parliament are absolutely solidly against NO DEAL.


And of those who talk of victory,  Well, I’d say it best to be wary of defeating your own. 



 Be carefu whit ye hark fae.
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 17 December 2018, 10:06:33 PM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupJtdSX4AELQqY.jpg)


Don't expect that booze to last very long at that party once the bloke in the middle gets in his stride :lol



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 17 December 2018, 10:15:45 PM
 :D :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 17 December 2018, 10:28:20 PM
Quote
So I think we can all see that voting LEAVE does not necessarily mean leaving the EU without a deal – ie a NO DEAL BREXIT.
I think I've been saying that for about 20 posts. What is it that Leavers don't get? There was only one version of Remain. It was crystal clear.
What is also absolutely clear....... is that this government or parliament, will not allow a No Deal to go through.


So tough on all 5 of you  :rollin
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 17 December 2018, 10:55:03 PM
Quote
I think I've been saying that for about 20 posts.
I know.  I know. :D
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: dazza on 18 December 2018, 05:08:32 AM
 :rolleyes  Get a room you two.....


This is how the more rational and realistic MEP's think....Someone who understands the British better it seems than both of you.
If they were all as understanding and eloquent as him, we wouldn't have voted out.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=524551098021286&id=438456536486382 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=524551098021286&id=438456536486382)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 December 2018, 09:40:16 AM

:rolleyes  Get a room you two.....



 :lol
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 December 2018, 09:46:02 AM

Maist like youse wherenae peyin attention.
Where can I buy a scottish keyboard from like the one you have   :pokefun


Mac Keyboards?.


Sorry I'll get my coat  :o
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 09:51:30 AM
Quote
Sorry I'll get my coat  [/size]

A Mackintosh no doubt  :)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: ogri48 on 18 December 2018, 01:00:16 PM

ok.
its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.


Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.


On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.


"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"


Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"


So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all



Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Flooky on 18 December 2018, 01:21:05 PM
That is exactly it for me, win lose or draw we shouls all respect the result..ignore it at our peril (whayever our feeling )

ok.
its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.


Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.


On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.


"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"


Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"


So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 01:21:37 PM
Quote
Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.
Nobody ever called Brexiteers impudent or racist. The only person I've called racist is Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and I stand by that 100%.
Yes I'm a democrat, so much so that I believe people can change their minds, as they do every 5 years when we elect new MPs that form a new government. The electorate today would not be the same electorate as 2016.
The last referendum was tainted with lies, illegal foreign money and did not make clear what would come after a Leave result.
As to Cameron, do you really believe what politicians say? He was convinced he was going to win.


What is important now is to get us out of this stalemate. May's method is to delay to the brink so her deal becomes the only viable option left.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: Flooky on 18 December 2018, 01:23:27 PM
cant even type now ! but you know what I mean, non of us want to feel that our opinions are ignored..I think if it doesn't go ahead it will kick off..big style.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 01:28:24 PM
Whatever happens, a large proportion of the population will be ignored. That's the trouble with referendums. That's why we elect governments to decide for us.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 December 2018, 01:48:51 PM
Well said ogri.When it is thrown upon leavers "you didn't all vote for the same version of leave" I wonder how many remain voters actually fully agree with the whole EU concept, I think they all want different versions of an EU. I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU.

Remainers talk about leavers being deluded but leavers are not deluded they can see and understand with perfect clarity what the remainers cannot, which is the EU will not change their course it will forever keep marching on with the EU project, they think that by being in it they can influence it which is the most deluded concept of all. 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 December 2018, 01:54:36 PM
Quote
Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.
Nobody ever called Brexiteers impudent or racist.
:eek Yes you have most definitely called leavers racist
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 02:52:59 PM
Quote
I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU.
No the EU isn't perfect. All those examples you've given either haven't happened or we have opted out of.
Quote
Yes you have most definitely called leavers racist

Where?
What concerns me is that the only ones threatening violence on the streets if they don't get what they want, are Leavers :eek


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 December 2018, 03:35:45 PM

Quote
Yes you have most definitely called leavers racist

Where?
Right here Brexit specs in these you posted
Brexit specs excludes brown hues. Berxiteer bingo, muslamic ray guns,immigrants,Im not a racist -but, they dont speak English,
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24678.0;attach=34056;image)(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24678.0;attach=33801;image)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 December 2018, 03:46:01 PM
Quote
I dont think any of them agree that the EU is perfect. How many want an EU army how many want to join the euro how many want ever increasing political integration and ever more laws being drawn up by the EU.
No the EU isn't perfect. All those examples you've given either haven't happened or we have opted out of.
The EU direction is clear and has been stated so as a goal. If the referendum is overturned and we end up staying in how much longer after that do you think we will still be able to "opt out" of elements, by staying in the whole EU project will be re- energised and accelerated so those bits you say are not perfect will only get worse.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 03:48:04 PM
Not me. Someone else created those. I just found them on Facebook and posted the images :lol


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 03:55:50 PM
Quote
The EU direction is clear and has been stated so as a goal. If the referendum is overturned and we end up staying in how much longer after that do you think we will still be able to "opt out" of elements, by staying in the whole EU project will be re- energised and accelerated so those bits you say are not perfect will only get worse.
I think that's an exaggeration. The EU army is a proposal made by some member states, not a goal. All 27 states would have to agree.
So, according to your last statement we should have voted Remain to consolidate our opt out rights? Anyway, if we rescind Article 50, technically we won't have left at all. There is no clamour for anybody to join the Euro. They've has their fingers burnt with Greece and Ireland.


Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: fazersharp on 18 December 2018, 04:56:53 PM
Not me. Someone else created those. I just found them on Facebook and posted the images :lol
I am sure that are lots of people in solitary confinement who would of loved to be able to use that excuse in their defence 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 05:52:11 PM
.... and I'm sure there have been lots of people wrongly locked up because of the actions of others....
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 05:56:03 PM
So the latest, May pretends to be looking at a No Deal result, and Rees-Mogg supports May.


It's all about saving the Tories  :(
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 December 2018, 06:28:42 PM
 
Quote
ok.
 its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
 lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
 lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
 And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.

Dear oh dear Ogri.
I think we have already in this thread established that the EU is actually a democratic union.
Rhetoric is all well and good.  But 40 odd pages in and we are still hearing off the EU “gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in” yet so far when pressed the foc u BREXITEERS have come up with;
Daylight running lights
Graded bananas
Oh and lets not forget Dazza’a great grandfather.
Quote
Lets go so far as to assume that they are right about everything, and the 17.4 million who voted to leave are impudent, racist, etc etc all the other names that have been thrown at us.
Stephen Yaxley Lennon rightly got called out as a fascist and racist.   Indeed Nigel Farage tore up his UKIP membership card in disgust at his appointment.
Quote
Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
Yup in order to kill UKIP and win and election he gambled on our EU membership – membership that he himself believes is of great importance to our union.  What an ass.
 
Quote
So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all
Firstly, I don’t believe we should allow the Tory party to wreck this nation.
Secondly, I don’t believe people voted for unemployment and more food banks.
Thirdly – two countries in this union voted to REMAIN.  My country voted decisively to REMAIN, I fully expect the Scottish Parliament and our representatives at Westminster to fight to REMAIN in the EU.  If you believe in democracy you’ll understand and respect that.
Fourthly – BREXIT was not defined in the referendum.  Yes the race card was played, the central message of being 350 million a week better off was a blatant lie and illegal foreign money was used in the campaign.


So aye some off us are mighty pissed off at this English Tory mess.  Right now the UK is adrift at sea with nobody at the helm. 
 
 
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: VNA on 18 December 2018, 06:30:53 PM
It must time fae another funny :lol

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupnzUxWwAA7JTI.jpg)
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: mtread on 18 December 2018, 07:46:40 PM
Perhaps the No Deal Brexiteers could answer these simple questions :

Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: YamFazFan on 18 December 2018, 07:51:09 PM



On Nov 10th, 2015, David Cameron, the leader of the governing party said this.


"this is a huge decision for our country., perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.And it will be the final decision...When the British people speak, their voice will be respected, not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation, and another referendum"


Now, perhaps it was wrong for Cameron to allow the common people to decide their future. But he did it.
And now, whether remainers like it or not, when they talk about about wanting another referendum, or "more democracy", they are fundamentally lying, they want less democracy, not more. How can you possibly argue against that? And if the government now went aginst that, how could we ever trust politicians again, or indeed ever call ourselves a democratic country.
The very nature of democracy is that "you do not confuse your own personal prejudices with divine wisdom, and if you lose, you accept your defeat with good grace"


So i'll only ask this and with the greatest of respect...Mt tread/VNA...are you not democrats? I mean if your not, obviously thats fine, each to their own, I was just sincerely wondering, thats all


Brilliant post. My thoughts entirely.
Title: Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
Post by: agricola on 18 December 2018, 09:14:43 PM
Quote
ok.
 its an emotive issue on both sides, so lets try and take that out of it.
 lets assume my reason for leaving isn't valid, along with whatever every other leavers reason was.
 lets assume mt tread and vna are right to say because remain had a certainty to it that leave didn't, we should have abandoned what we really wanted to do, and voted to stay in a corrupt (just in our view obviously) system, ruled by people we didn't vote for, who gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in.
 And that instead of "dying on our feet rather than living on our knees" (again just our opinions obviously), we should have stayed on our knees.

Dear oh dear Ogri.
I think we have already in this thread established that the EU is actually a democratic union.
Rhetoric is all well and good.  But 40 odd pages in and we are still hearing off the EU “gradually encroached upon every aspect of our lives with rules we had no say in” yet so far when pressed the foc u BREXITEERS have come up with;
Daylight running lights
Graded bananas
Oh and lets not forget Dazza’a great grandfather.