Date: 28-03-24  Time: 15:09 pm

Author Topic: Temporary lack of power  (Read 2725 times)

Skippernick

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Temporary lack of power
« on: 19 January 2020, 12:15:05 pm »
This is from Friday.
Went to work on the bike 35 miles away, fired first time after 3 weeks and nothing unusual. It got a clean over Christmas but wasn't warmed up to dry out. Felt the exhaust was a bit noisy but seeing as I still run original pipes not too concerned.
The bike sat in the rain all day at work and it was cold, started first time but then stalled as I pulled away up the hill, restarted fine and off I went. Pulled onto the main road which is a quick acceleration due to the brow of a hill and then after 300 meters slowed for a 30 zone, all good so far.
A mile or so the 30 changes to 40 and I roll on in top gear but the bike judders and won't pull, do it a couple of times and drop a couple of gears but the same, but at a constant throttle its fine, or a very gradual increase in speed. After another couple of miles pull over and rev the bike in neutral and revs fine. I set off again and all is well, pulls fine in all gears and the exhaust note seems to have changed.
Was this a misfire, a dropped cylinder due to the cold and wet? Is there a chance that it was running like that all morning and that was the throaty noise I assumed was a holey exhaust and is it ok to run with a dropped cylinder?


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Nick
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bandit

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #1 on: 19 January 2020, 12:29:23 pm »
Sounds like a misfire to me probably caused by damp as you said not running bike after washing it.

Skippernick

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #2 on: 19 January 2020, 12:40:33 pm »
Would a misfire last for an hours ride?
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bandit

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #3 on: 19 January 2020, 01:24:48 pm »
If water gets into the plug caps where the lead screws into it check for a good seal at the rubber boots, it could take a while to dry out, don't forget water can also lay in the plug wells especially if left on the sidestand, make sure the drain holes in the cylinder head are clear so water can escape out the little hole on each side of the cylinder head. Don't think it's a duff sparkplug as it ran o.k in the end but if it happens again changing plugs might help.   
« Last Edit: 19 January 2020, 01:29:48 pm by bandit »

darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #4 on: 19 January 2020, 02:24:26 pm »
I use the choke every time now in winter, just enough to let it tick over at around 2000rpm, just for a couple of minutes, and it warms the bike up much quicker and efficiently.


Spray some WD40 around the plugs, caps and HT leads to prevent damp issues in future.


If you ever do decide to change your plugs, i would highly recommend buying Iridium ones, i find them much better than standard ones. They're a few quid extra but will last longer so are still cost effective.
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darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #5 on: 19 January 2020, 02:35:24 pm »
Another pointer as well, avoid Ebay for spark plugs, i've bought moody ones from there before that started failing after one month.


Use a reputable place like The Green Spark Plug Company.
Iridium ones are CR8EIX
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Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #6 on: 19 January 2020, 03:06:10 pm »
Last few days we've had a first real icy/frosty days of the year, sounds to me like typical carb icing.  Fazers are prone to this if the carb heater system, which runs off the cooling system blocks, nearly always at the small elbow on the carb bodies.  This often occurs when the anti freeze ratio is allowed to drop, cheap anti freeze is used or none is used at some point in it's life, allowing the small elbows corrode and block. 


     
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Skippernick

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #7 on: 19 January 2020, 04:00:46 pm »
Coolant was replaced a year ago with Yamaha stuff, so I'm hoping not that Gnasher!!
Bike was on its side stand in the rain, ill check the drain etc.

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Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #8 on: 19 January 2020, 04:08:20 pm »
That's as it may be but if at some point before you had it or some small debris has got in they will block the small elbow.  These have holes of about 1mm very easily blocked, I've cleaned out or replaced many over the years. 
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Skippernick

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #9 on: 19 January 2020, 05:54:21 pm »
That's as it may be but if at some point before you had it or some small debris has got in they will block the small elbow.  These have holes of about 1mm very easily blocked, I've cleaned out or replaced many over the years.


Ah.
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darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #10 on: 20 January 2020, 06:59:52 am »
Crikey, i never even thought of carb icing, and my bike does suffer from it too.


Even with the carb heater circuit cleared out, once it hits a certain frosty temperature (normally between zero a 5 degrees) my bike will start misbehaving, as it did in the very first winter i rode it. It played up 3 days in a row, one mile from my home and i had to keep stopping the bike in exactly the same place, but after getting it going again i limped the bike to my mechanics where he guessed carb icing and also cleaned the circuit for me and as Gnasher suggests it was blocked.


There are expensive lotions and potions out there to help with this problem, but now i buy a 5 litre container of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol, and have found that just 200ml per full tank of fuel keeps the problem away, without any other side effects whatsoever. I've had the bike 12 or 13 years now.


It only costs just over £15 for 25 tanks worth, so will easily get you through winter if you ride all year round. (all barring snow and ice, i have my limits)


I'm guessing that you don't hear about this issue as much because a lot of people don't use the bike in these much lower temperatures, which is fair enough if you have alternative transport, but i don't so i just deal with it. 


In the colder weather too though, it is worth using the choke to warm up the bike properly for 2 or 3 minutes before you head off, i try to aim for around the 2000rpm mark, which isn't so offensive to upset the neighbours.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2020, 07:06:59 am by darrsi »
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Skippernick

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #11 on: 20 January 2020, 10:12:37 pm »
Yeah to be fair I hadn't warmed her up but then again the problem occurred after a couple of miles of riding. Not using it again until Friday so will keep you posted.



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Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #12 on: 20 January 2020, 10:21:35 pm »
If your bikes carb heater system isn't work correctly or you haven't got any fuel icing additive in the fuel.  It will matter not how you warm up the bike, it will still ice up I'm afraid.


Get the system fixed, when working it's 100% reliable and the bike will not ice.     
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darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #13 on: 21 January 2020, 12:01:59 am »
Could never understand why the pipes of the carb heater circuit weren't made wider?
Or is it something they corrected on later/other bikes?
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Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #14 on: 21 January 2020, 06:30:03 am »
Could never understand why the pipes of the carb heater circuit weren't made wider?
Or is it something they corrected on later/other bikes?


They don't need to be any bigger, or they'd over heat the carb body.  Only a degree or so is required to stop icing any more and the mixture would start to evaporate.  They block mainly because owners don't use the correct anti freeze and/or mixture or none at all, by doing so will cause or encourage corrosion, which over time will block the the elbow.  Other causes are contaminated water, or if you're unlucky paint from the cooling internals can flake off and block them, I've seen this a few times in the past.  Golden rule, test your coolant every year for anti freeze % strength, you don't need to change it, just top it up with neat anti freeze if its lower or under strength.  The only time it's needs draining is when the engine been apart, they tell you to change it as they know most wont check it, it will reduce in strength over time and someone sells you something.  The coolant in my bike was 12 years old still working fine :D [size=78%]        [/size]
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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #15 on: 21 January 2020, 12:54:48 pm »
Changing from conventional antifreeze to new organic acid long life antifreeze can cause deposits to form and these collect in the narrow carb heater pipes.

Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #16 on: 21 January 2020, 06:12:36 pm »
Changing from conventional antifreeze to new organic acid long life antifreeze can cause deposits to form and these collect in the narrow carb heater pipes.



Who told you that  :rollin OAT has been around for almost 40yrs.  All brought on by the need of the car/lorry/bus industry to standardise antifreeze world wide, increase corrosion protection and the increasing use of aluminium heads and iron/steel blocks, still very common in cars/lorries/buses, due to the cost of all aluminium engines.  Iron and steel corroded different rates and ways to aluminium, the latter pretty much dissolves. OAT (non silicate organic) these are mostly orange or yellow, some are blue provide increase life (typically 5yrs) and IAT (silicate) green, blue and red, its the green and blue you'll find in most Jap bikes (2yrs). They can be mixed with themselves, tests show mixing results in slightly more corrosion than keeping them separate. Lastly you've got HOAT or Hybrid OAT these are a mix of silicates and organics, these OAT/HOAT are mostly used by the car/lorry/bus world, most bikes still use IAT.

As I mentioned earlier this life thing, in my opinion/experience I take with a pinch of salt, whats more important is to test the antifreeze % and only top up with antifreeze.  When I say top up that should be like almost never for a healthy engine, if you loosing coolant something is wrong!  I bought my 99 model in 2000, sold it 2011, it had the same antifreeze in it from the factory still in % levels, I can't remember ever topping it up, just testing.

Biggest killer is wrong type water (don't use tap water or softened) and not keeping the 50/50% mix, both will induce corrosion and or degrade the antifreeze protection.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2020, 07:08:59 pm by Gnasher »
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His Dudeness

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #17 on: 21 January 2020, 06:38:13 pm »
I've got a bottle of this stuff. It's supposed to help prevent carb icing. Might be worth a try  https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/fuel-additives/pro-fst/

Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #18 on: 21 January 2020, 07:10:31 pm »
I've got a bottle of this stuff. It's supposed to help prevent carb icing. Might be worth a try  https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/fuel-additives/pro-fst/


It will work, it's just added expense, for something the bike shouldn't be doing if the carb heater system is working.
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Trebus

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #19 on: 21 January 2020, 08:53:40 pm »
Once upon a time I had an XJ600 Diversion. Besides being an absolutely awful bike to ride, it suffered carb icing quite regularly in cold weather. The additive stuff did help to prevent it. I believe it’s actually kerosene so I’m the end got hold of a gallon and added a bit to each tankful. And sold the bike not long after!

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #20 on: 21 January 2020, 09:53:30 pm »
That Silkolene stuff smells like alcohol so it's probably mostly just isopropol alcohol the same as darrsi uses. Even with the heater circuit open I wonder could you still have carb icing because it would take a few miles for the coolant to warm up especially on a cold day.

There's an interesting chart on carb icing https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Icing-chart-1024x699.png
« Last Edit: 21 January 2020, 09:56:05 pm by His Dudeness »

darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #21 on: 22 January 2020, 06:40:00 am »
I've got a bottle of this stuff. It's supposed to help prevent carb icing. Might be worth a try  https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/fuel-additives/pro-fst/


That's exactly the stuff i was on about, being an expensive version, but it doesn't work anywhere near as effective as 99% I.P.Alcohol, and is more costly for one litre than it is for the alternative 5 litres.
This is not something i have done on a whim, i totally researched it all before i tried using pure alcohol, and the reason i did research it was because the Silkolene wasn't really any good so i was looking for another better/cheaper product.


My bike does suffer from carb icing, no ifs or buts about it, even after having the heater circuit cleaned, and i know exactly how the bike behaves when it happens, and also which temperatures, so now i put that 1% ratio (200ml to 20,000ml fuel for my 20 litre tank) in the tank as soon as the colder weather kicks in and i don't have to worry about it whatsoever throughout the rideable winter.
I used to use 300ml every time, but kept lowering it to see the least amount i could get away with, but it burns exactly like petrol and will also absorb any unwanted moisture from your fuel tank and burn it off as fuel as well. Removing this moisture/water also lessens the chance of icing, plus the alcohol lowers the freezing point in the first place.
My cooling system itself has always been spot on, but i do Radflush the system probably every 3 years, and replace the coolant with the yellow bike stuff. Works for me, and i'm happy doing that as part of my own servicing routine.


Something to point out, propeller planes suffer from carb icing too. Just something to ponder over if you ever get to fly in one  :lol [size=78%] [/size]
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darrsi

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #22 on: 22 January 2020, 06:48:48 am »
Please note that there are 2 versions of Isopropyl Alcohol about, a the 99+%, and also a 70% with 30% water version, which is used for cleaning.


Obviously, avoid the one with any water in it, and only use the 99% version.
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Gnasher

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #23 on: 22 January 2020, 07:10:17 am »
My bike does suffer from carb icing, no ifs or buts about it, even after having the heater circuit cleaned


Then it's still blocked or restricted somewhere, either the link pipes or in the carb body galleries.  When operating correctly the bike will 100% not ice, the system is based on systems first used on WW1 aircraft and it's totally effective.   
« Last Edit: 22 January 2020, 05:13:07 pm by Gnasher »
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YamFazFan

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Re: Temporary lack of power
« Reply #24 on: 22 January 2020, 08:07:30 am »


Something to point out, propeller planes suffer from carb icing too. Just something to ponder over if you ever get to fly in one  :lol


Now he tells us :wall

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