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General => General => Topic started by: steve 10562cc on 06 October 2018, 07:26:09 am

Title: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 06 October 2018, 07:26:09 am
 Why is it when ever there's a programme or article in the press it's about the Uk waste/litter that finish's up in the seas, and for the record I think it no plastic should be in the sea's it should be recycled or if it can't be, not used at all. Why is it though these programmes/articles fail to show/blame the countries that's beaches/ river banks are covered knee deep in waste of all kind, especially plastic waste and try to lay the guilt trip on us. There's 2 of us in our house hold and we fill 2 large recycling bins for every 2 weeks for collection. Most of the people on the estate I live on also put out 1 or 2 full bins for every fortnight collection and a green waste bin. We had to ask for a second recycling bin so don't know how families manage with one, because it's not common knowledge you can ask for a second recycling bin. I get annoyed by the way these eco warriors always blame an easy target who for the main are trying there best to recycle, and don't lay the blame where it belongs and most of it does not belong on the shoulders of the UK population.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Dudeofrude on 06 October 2018, 08:23:07 am
Because we're one of the only countries full of softy eco twats that will get up in arms about it. Go to the middle of Africa or India and ask them about plastic waste and see if they give a shit
 It's the same with carbon emissions, go to hong kong and breathe in the lovely smog then ask them how much they pay in Vehicle emissions duty 🙄
Our governments shafts us for £120 a year to drive a piddly little 1 litre shoe with wheels yet the yanks version of an eco friendly car is a v6!

The thing about all this that really pisses me off is the fact they blame us (the average joe) when in fact we do exactly as we should. We put all our recycling in our little tubs, wash out the jars, fold the cardboard then some sumbag council run company throws it in a river or buries it in the ground.
At the end of the day we don't make all this plastic crap that ends up in the sea..... penny pinching companies do because it's cheap.

We used to get drinks in glass bottles, now they're plastic, we used to have paper bags... etc etc
Why does fruit and veg need to come in plastic wrappers? Or eggs or meat?

Instead of taxing us and making us do all the work the government needs to clamp down on the millionaire company bosses and make them sacrifice a little profit for the sake of the planet!
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 06 October 2018, 09:42:06 am
I put my hands up to this one, I am guilty. I save up all my plastic and drive 80 miles to the nearest coast and chuck it in the sea. I then wait a couple of weeks and I can see it washed up on a beautiful Caribbean island with a very bronzed looking eco warrior in  bermuda shorts who flew there on a big jet just so they can point at it.     
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: darrsi on 06 October 2018, 10:11:55 am
My guvnor ordered me 150 antenna's for our transmitter kits last week, imagine plastic aerials about 4" long about the width of a pencil.
Now you'd think they'd come loose in a Jiffy bag or the like, but no, this dirty great box arrived then once opened there were several more cardboard boxes inside.
Not even guessing what was inside i opened up one of the smaller cardboard boxes then found 10 x 5" square silver plastic bags with ONE aerial each inside.
This is a non perishable item that not only would be fine to lob in a Jiffy bag, but surely it would lower production costs and also labour to cut out all the extra baggage? 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Bretty on 06 October 2018, 10:36:27 am
It is funny. Put what you want in whatever bin you want. You're local council probably just incinerates the lot and sells you back the electricity generated!


They use the "illegal levels of nitrogen" in london to justify congestion charging.. then build incinerators all around london. It doesn't make any sense to me. They always change the story to suit the agenda.


We also have the biggest sewage treatment works in Europe.. and all the bio material is burnt and sold back in electricity.
Pretty amazing these site probably emit more carbon and nitrogen then anything else you can think of.


Oh well, keep the ecomentalists occupied with plastic bottles, cotton buds, straws and cigarette ends while these sites keep chugging along.


What has the plastic bag tax achieved? I notice the supermarkets are already making the '5p' bags thinner and smaller already. Any idea where the revenue has gone and how many turtles have actually been saved?



Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 06 October 2018, 11:13:14 am
Another thing that bugs me is that we get quoted that the UK throws more into land fill than any other EU country - but the only reason is they dont got any focing holes !
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: slappy on 06 October 2018, 11:39:03 am



What has the plastic bag tax achieved? I notice the supermarkets are already making the '5p' bags thinner and smaller already. Any idea where the revenue has gone and how many turtles have actually been saved?
[/quote


Revenue for the goverment!  Because that is what it is all about, the solution to every problem is to tax it!
Doesn't matter if it is plastic waste, alcohol, tobacco, sugar or anything at all, if it is bad for the environment or your health just tax it because that absolutely and definitely solves the problem every time.


What we need is a "Lily The Pink" invention to solve all the worlds environmental problems :)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 06 October 2018, 11:44:06 am
 
Quote
Why is it though these programmes/articles fail to show/blame the countries that's beaches/ river banks are covered knee deep in waste of all kind, especially plastic waste and try to lay the guilt trip on us.

I’m not sure why you think they are trying to put the blame on ‘us’ as you say.  Though on the other hand surely, we should be thankful for those who are highlighting the issue.  It is absolutely and utterly out of control.  And in turn this will only change through pressure, public pressure, ie – us.
 
Quote
We used to get drinks in glass bottles, now they're plastic, we used to have paper bags... etc etc
Why does fruit and veg need to come in plastic wrappers? Or eggs or meat?

Spot on.  I could have a major rant on “What gets my Goat” about all the pointless useless packaging I come home with every time I visit the supermarket.  But don’t forget it’s packaged this way to sell it to us.  I may hate it, but clearly it sells.
 
As for everybody putting everything nicely into the correct bin.  Well I’ve parked my car in many laybys at the side of trunk roads all over Scotland as I work my way round various hills.  A great many of these laybys resemble mini land fill sites.  Why?
 
So yeah I’m all in favour of these programmes and articles etc… One way or another we’ll get the packaging we deserve. :rolleyes :eek :lol


One thing I hope we see highlighted and see more often – is dump your packaging days.  You do your shop at the supermarket, and then before you pack it in your bags, you unpack it at the till and leave all the unnecessary useless packaging at the till for the supermarket to bin/recycle.



And don’t forget, at the end of the day, it’s not just the wildlife eating plastic, we are now eating it too.
Quote
What has the plastic bag tax achieved?
An 86% reduction in single use bags.
Quote
I notice the supermarkets are already making the '5p' bags thinner and smaller already.
Some supermarkets have done away with them, hopefully all the others will follow.
Quote
how many turtles have actually been saved?
None.  We are still dumping way too much plastic, left right and centre.
 
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 06 October 2018, 11:49:22 am
Quote
Revenue for the goverment!  Because that is what it is all about, the solution to every problem is to tax it!
It’s not a tax, it’s a compulsory charge, retailers are expected to give the money to good causes.
https://www.mygov.scot/carrier-bag-charge/ (https://www.mygov.scot/carrier-bag-charge/)



 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: ogri48 on 06 October 2018, 12:12:03 pm
as a species, it has to be said, we don't deserve to be at the top of the food chain. or even halfway up it..philosophers have been arguing about "what it is to be human" since the ancient greeks. I think we all know, we just don't want to admit it lol
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 06 October 2018, 12:13:18 pm
Aye.  As a species we have evolved to eat our own shit.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: ogri48 on 06 October 2018, 12:14:35 pm
"true that" mate, as the young people say..
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Bretty on 06 October 2018, 01:01:18 pm
Quote
What has the plastic bag tax achieved?
An 86% reduction in single use bags.

Ths is a classic case of making the story fit the agenda.  :rolleyes
In my experience I probably use a 1/5th of the number of "single use" bags I used to. I still sometimes have to buy a "reusable" bag because I've either forgetten or done a convenience shop... but now I have to buy a bag that is 5times thicker and probably takes 10times longer to biodegrade. The nett result is the same as before, the difference is now I'm paying 5p!! How is that the answer?  :rolleyes :lol :b

I used to use the single use bags as bin bags around the house... now I buy an extra roll of bin bags.. :rollin :rollin :rollin

I'm only messing with you. I agree something needs to be done. But there is lower hanging fruit that doesn't involve charging Joe Public.  :\
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 06 October 2018, 02:12:55 pm
 There is a lot of research now being carried out into land fill mining.
For two reasons – the land fill sites are now a serious source of pollution. 
We are going run out many of the precious metals we use in advanced electronics.  We need to dig out all the mobile phones, computers and other devices that have gone to land-fill.
Expect sometime in the future your local land fill to be dug up, processed and recycled. 
Mental.
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Oldgit on 06 October 2018, 05:40:15 pm
Got to agree with Dudeofrude on this issue, we in this country are shat upon at every opperchancity by all our governments, we pay through the nose for everything and allow MP's to tax every furkin thing that we need, and enjoy, plus we subsidise these Bstards life style. Time it was all stopped.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: slappy on 06 October 2018, 06:11:49 pm
Quote
Revenue for the goverment!  Because that is what it is all about, the solution to every problem is to tax it!
It’s not a tax, it’s a compulsory charge, retailers are expected to give the money to good causes.
https://www.mygov.scot/carrier-bag-charge/ (https://www.mygov.scot/carrier-bag-charge/)


It is revenue for the government, the charge includes vat which last year resulted in a nice £17 million earner.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 06 October 2018, 07:35:47 pm
Why is it though these programmes/articles fail to show/blame the countries that's beaches/ river banks are covered knee deep in waste of all kind, especially plastic waste and try to lay the guilt trip on us.


For fear of being accused of racism and causing offence.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 06 October 2018, 08:38:54 pm
I tried to be careful how I put that YamFazFan didn't want to be accused of racism or causing offence. It wont change due to public pressure no politician of any party has ever listened to the great unwashed of this country and carried out their wishes.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 06 October 2018, 08:52:05 pm
Why is it though these programmes/articles fail to show/blame the countries that's beaches/ river banks are covered knee deep in waste of all kind, especially plastic waste and try to lay the guilt trip on us.


For fear of being accused of racism and causing offence.
This is what gets my back up -in those countries they show the piles of plastic that THEY have dumped and then switch it over to how WE should be taxed more to cut our plastic use. Both the BBC and Sky are pumping out the rhetoric - no doubt egged on by the government to condition us to then accept extra taxes.
And if you wanna talk about pointless packaging in supermarkets, the worst offenders are Aldi and Lidil I don't think you can buy any fruit or veg that is not in a plastic bag.Its all pre weighed and bagged up, heaven forbid that the checkout person spends an extra 3 seconds to weigh it before they sling it past the till at 300 mph !         
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: bludclot on 07 October 2018, 10:05:50 am



We have a long way to go.


It's reduce, reuse, recycle. In that order. Please don't think that by filling two recycling bins (for two people in a fortnight? How?) you are being environmentally friendly, better not to bring that material to your residence in the first place i.e. reduce.


I see people in supermarkets - typically pick up a couple of bananas and in the very thin give away plastic bag they go. Why? Last I knew bananas had a protective skin on them already. In the same vein I see cars drive to car park recycling bins... I see average speeds of 80mph on motorways (what's wrong with 56mph and fuel and emissions saving?) I see vehicle use for pleasure, I see motor racing, I see new vehicles being produced, sold and used, I see cheap clothing shops with huge queues at tills, I see fast food packaging everywhere, I see house building when we already have housing numbers sufficient to house everyone (just not necessarily where people want to live) I see shops filled with single use plastic goods for every holiday (halloween currently) I see fireworks every year (any idea just how massively polluting they are?) I could go on. That's just what I see, don't start me on what I hear and feel (heating for cold, air conditioning for hot everywhere, what's with that? We are warm blooded live with it and enjoy ffs).


I can only conclude that this societal structure is not sustainable.


Let's be honest here: We all want to be environmentally friendly, I think that's a given. When we are comfortably well off it's quite easy too. As soon as paying rent/mortgage/bills is under threat the environment (and pretty much everything else) goes out of the window. It's why people rip tusks out of elephants, cut down rain forests and produce plastic novelty items - to pay bills and put food on the family table i.e. be a good provider. It's not so easy to take the moral high ground with en empty belly and hungry children. So... cut to the chase here: the human race has two options: a massive reduction in numbers or scrapping of the monetary system. Either of these should eliminate plastic going into our oceans.


The irony of all this is that living by the 'reduce, reuse, recycle' maxim actually saves loads of money!
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: tommyardin on 07 October 2018, 06:41:16 pm
It is interesting listening to every ones thoughts and opinions on the issue of plastics and other packaging.


Some say Reduce at the till in the supermarket, the problem is that whether you buy that product or not it is packed in plastic, if its not bought it goes into a skip then into landfill plastic and all, if it is purchased the plastic has a better chance of being recycled.
2 wheelie bins a fortnight does seem excessive for two people, but if their council does recycle it all as they say they do then it has to be a good thing.


I honestly think that the problem of plastic and other waste products can only be solved at the factory goods in gates.


A lot of manufactures don't actually give a fuck, it's all about maximum profit for the smallest outlay, profits and shareholders must be appeased, they don't want to hear we have very little profits the financial year but we a very environmentally friendly and have cut down on our carbon footprint by 60%. It also puts the unemployment figures up.


Hedgehogs, red squirrels, water voles, newts, sand lizards, there is a programme on the TV I can hear now as I am typing this drivvle (Country File)  all these animals are at risk because of building and other development including modern farming which is destroying hedge rows and field ditches, and it is called progress.


I am afraid we all are a part of the problem, we want cheaper goods, and that usually means automated packaging plants that use more and more plastics.


More and more plastics are being used in the building trade/construction (High thermal value materials) that will also add to the problem in years to come. :eek


   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 07 October 2018, 08:35:26 pm
Did my bit to save on plastic in the oceans this after noon when I went out for a ride this after noon took a reusable water bottle with me instead of a plastic one, but did use 2 tanks of gas just enjoying the ride so guess I'm not environmentally after all.   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 07 October 2018, 08:51:11 pm
There are (so it would seem)  also health issues with re using plastic water bottles over and over
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 07 October 2018, 08:57:33 pm
Some plastic packaging IS needed, for instance cucumbers, the plastic sleeve prolongs the life, we thought we were saving the planet when we saw a cucumber without plastic but had to bin it after a few days--waste water growing it-waste transport pollution- and so on but at least when I bin it that it degrades quick. But there should be a bio degradable sleeve option.
EDIT- IMO cucumbers are a waste of focin time anyway !       
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: tommyardin on 07 October 2018, 09:18:40 pm
Cant do away with plastic anyway, cast iron fairing on a Fazer? not forgetting infill panels, side panels and lead crash helmets, cork mobile phones and cardboard iPads.


Plastic is here to stay, so get used to it, we just need to manage it better,and until governments worldwide passes legislation to control it we will have to put up with it.
Even recycle centres in different areas can not agree on what can and can not be recycled.   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 08 October 2018, 01:12:28 pm
 
Quote
For fear of being accused of racism and causing offence.
Absolute nonsense.  What evidence do you have for this?  And not to mention many businesses, authority’s, idea of waste management is to ship it abroad.
 
Quote
Some plastic packaging IS needed, for instance cucumbers, the plastic sleeve prolongs the life, we thought we were saving the planet when we saw a cucumber without plastic but had to bin it after a few days
My local supermarket – Morrisons – are telling us they are making a big move to cut packaging.  So paper bags have replaced the free wee plastic bags for loose fruit and veg.  But yeah the shrink wrap has vanished from the cucumbers.  I now get my cucumber home and shrink wrap it in plastic so it won’t go off quick in the fridge.  Doh!  Yet they are still selling tomatoes in plastic boxes.  Oh and why when I need a few floury tatties tae make some soup why do I have to buy 2Kg in a plastic bag.  I’ll have some mash to use some of em up, but a good few will get chucked.  Why is all fruit and veg not loose?


Quote
It wont change due to public pressure no politician of any party has ever listened to the great unwashed of this country and carried out their wishes.
I can assure you if enough people apply pressure to their elected representatives they will respond.  It is a democracy.  And democracy is not just about voting once every 5 years.  But yeah, leave em to it and most likely they will do foc all.  They are there to serve us – make em do their job.
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 08 October 2018, 03:55:56 pm
Trouble is self opinionated people who only see things from their point of view tend to put the backs up of most people.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 08 October 2018, 04:12:13 pm
Quote
Oh and why when I need a few floury tatties tae make some soup why do I have to buy 2Kg in a plastic bag.  I’ll have some mash to use some of em up, but a good few will get chucked.
We always but a sack of spuds from the local garden centre which comes in a paper sack, £6.50 for 12.5kg and keep it in the shed and it lasts weeks. But you can only get them between October and May. And then its new potatoes - as you say, in plastic bags.     
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 08 October 2018, 06:23:18 pm
 There's a weird thing too.  Most of the year I eat new tatties, seeing as these days they are available all year roond (maybe that in itself needs to change).  My supermarket always has loose new tatties.  But I buy em pre-packed cos they are a fraction of the price, and it’s often the same variety from the same region.  Why? 
It’s only when I do something like make soup I need the old ones, and I end up with shit loads of em.
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: dazza on 08 October 2018, 06:57:56 pm
Quote
For fear of being accused of racism and causing offence.

Absolute nonsense.  What evidence do you have for this?  And not to mention many businesses, authority’s, idea of waste management is to ship it abroad.
 
Quote
Some plastic packaging IS needed, for instance cucumbers, the plastic sleeve prolongs the life, we thought we were saving the planet when we saw a cucumber without plastic but had to bin it after a few days

My local supermarket – Morrisons – are telling us they are making a big move to cut packaging.  So paper bags have replaced the free wee plastic bags for loose fruit and veg.  But yeah the shrink wrap has vanished from the cucumbers.  I now get my cucumber home and shrink wrap it in plastic so it won’t go off quick in the fridge.  Doh!  Yet they are still selling tomatoes in plastic boxes.  Oh and why when I need a few floury tatties tae make some soup why do I have to buy 2Kg in a plastic bag.  I’ll have some mash to use some of em up, but a good few will get chucked.  Why is all fruit and veg not loose?


Quote
It wont change due to public pressure no politician of any party has ever listened to the great unwashed of this country and carried out their wishes.

I can assure you if enough people apply pressure to their elected representatives they will respond.  It is a democracy.  And democracy is not just about voting once every 5 years.  But yeah, leave em to it and most likely they will do foc all.  They are there to serve us – make em do their job.

Every time you do this VNA I think of this  :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: agricola on 08 October 2018, 07:31:20 pm
and lets try to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees eh. Just enough to melt the ice caps, then we can get at the underground resources.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: BBROWN1664 on 08 October 2018, 08:31:37 pm
Where I live, the waste collection is becoming a joke.
We get one large (only becasue I complained about the small) recycling bin that is collected once a fortnight. On black bag bin that is emtied weekly and a garden waste bin that if they detect you have been putting kitchen waste (like potatoe peelings) they refuse to empty.
We fill our recycling bin in under two weeks meaning that we actually end up putting stuff in teh black bag bin that we could recycle. I dont want bags and boxes lying around the place so in the bin it goes.
The garden waste bin is now emptied 50 weeks of the year but only every other week meaning I still ahve a sizable pile of garden waste in teh garden I cant get rid of. I cant get rid of it because our local council have deemed vans and trailers to be the spawn of the earth and wont allow them in teh local tip without paying for the priveledge. On top of this, they now close at 4:30pm dueing the week having not opened until 9am (and never on a Thursday) so I cannot get there before/after work and at the weekend, the queue goes way back down the road blocking off the local retail park. You can sit in teh queue, gradually creeping forwards, for 45 minutes for the privieldge of self sorting your rubbish into specific piles.

I dont mind recycling, reusing etc but the problem is not in this country really. The problem you have all seen on the tv is places like india, mexico, etc where the poeple just dont give a foc and their governments dont either. To them, they think very little of dropping another plastic back in teh street or tipping the contents of their engine oil in the local stream becasue thats the way its done there.

We can go as green as we want in this continent, but when the USA, China and the third world are not helping, even if we stopped using plastic and fosil fuel tonight, the problem would still be there and will remain there until the other parts of the world start to do something.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 08 October 2018, 10:48:04 pm
Agree with much of what you say BBROWN1664.

But at the same time we have a policy of dumping our waste on third world and developing countries.  Though some of these countries are now rightly refusing to take our waste.

And of course the biggest part of our recycling bin problem is we have so much darn pointless packaging to stick in there in the first place.

Totally agree it's a global problem.  As for the USA, well Trump is in complete denial of all enviromental issues.  Plus he's renaging on international agreement after agreement.  Trump is a problem for us all.

I would argue, by the way, that China is actually one country that is now, and to some degree has already in the past, taken global warming more seriously than most other countries, and it's now moving to more robustly tackle waste.  China may be a big polluter as a country, by on a single person basis they are one of the least polluting countries in the world.

But regardless of what other countries do, we need to clean up our act.  Cos if nothing else, leading the way on emmisions, plastic use, recycling and waste means we'll have the technology and expertise to sell to other countries when sooner or later they will be screaming out for solutions to a mounting problem.  It's a win win, if we can get it right (big if)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Slaninar on 09 October 2018, 04:51:13 am
My thoughts on this, correct me if I'm missing something.

Ironic/"funny" part: beavers build dams, humans make plastic. Planet loves plastic, we're a part of the planet.  :)  We've been here for a relatively very short time and not that anyone would miss us if we pollute ourselves to death.

Bit more serious: more humans, more polution. Limiting a number of new borns worldwide would get us within a manageable number of people, with more than enough resources and less pollution.

Seriously: We've had a company VW Golf 2 diesel. It ran for over 20 years! As a company car. Used very little fuel. I wonder if that's less eco than modern cars that have filters, but use the same amount of fuel per 100 kms, if not more, due to engine being suffocated with all the exhaust filters. How much pollution does making a new car do? Golf 2 can last for 20-30 years, while modern cars are "phased out" after 5 years, with strong government incentives for new, "eco" cars... Plus Golf 2 runs on filtered, used food frying oil.  :)

Same goes for most other products - capitalism, with consumerism, leads to pollution. People are encouraged to buy more often, new stuff, discouraged from repairing the old. New stuff is designed so it doesn't last long AND so it's expensive to repair. Plus, you have a "free market" with 1000 different variants of the same thing - instead of choosing a most durable, easyest and cleanest to produce models, of high quality, making them in large series.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: BBROWN1664 on 09 October 2018, 09:30:12 am
:agree

The so called old and "dirty" cars tend to be cleaner than new ones when you look at the cradle to grave emmisions for the reasons you have given. the effort/emmisions involved in building them has increased and the effort/cost/emisions to scrap the car has increased. Add in the shorter lifespan of some of these cars now and whilst they may emit less particles per km or whatever, they are not as green as the carrot munchers would like you to believe.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 09 October 2018, 11:49:13 am
 
Quote
The so called old and "dirty" cars tend to be cleaner than new ones when you look at the cradle to grave emmisions for the reasons you have given.
Except the older diesel ones, they visibly spew out diesel particles and soot.  Arguably they need to taken off the road.  But then, the current answer - congestion charges or bans for older diesels - is pretty much directly targeting those who can least afford.  It’s not clever and it’s not right. 



But yeah I ran my last car for over 10 years.  2.0ltr petrol Bora.  Got a Euro 6 diesel now.  I’d say it’s well built and should last even longer than my Bora, but the problem may be if you have a car that suffers ‘technical’ problems, as it gets harder to diagnose and fix some issues.  So far it's run for almost 3 years faultlessly (fingers crossed)


I do think we will see increasing numbers of electric cars on the roads over the next few years.  Still a bit limited in choice, pricey for what you get and the killer for me is range just now.  But for a lot of folks they are going to start ticking boxes.  Exepct them to become a common sight.



Quote
Bit more serious: more humans, more polution. Limiting a number of new borns worldwide would get us within a manageable number of people, with more than enough resources and less pollution.
Population, the big white elephant in the room.  It is though the number one issue.
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Slaninar on 09 October 2018, 01:12:56 pm
Electric cars can help an overpopulated city have a bit less pollution, but the planet as a whole - not so much, if not worse IMO.

My country now gives incentive for "renewable" power sources. So people with money put dams on small, beautiful mountain rivers, and make small power plants. This destroys the mountain rivers/streams, kills all the fast water inhabiting fish (trout I think is the English name). Even affects the surrounding forrests.

Similar thing happens with wind-turbines - haven't seen it for myself, but was told they tend to decimate flocks of birds, who don't see the fins. They even make them with some whistles, to allow birds to notice them, but then you have noise pollution.

Solar panels - they take a lot of room, and have a limited life span - not sure how eco-friendly their production is.

Coal - no need to even explain that.

Nuclear power plants - these seem like the most eco friendly, in terms of pollution per MW produced. As long as there are no disasters and the waste is stored safely and properly.


All those sources are either time, or/and resource limited. Electricity is produced, then converted to charge batteries. Then converted again to run an electric car engine from the batteries. With losses at each transformation (smaller, or larger). OK, when the electric car is run in a busy street it doesn't pollute then and there. It did use pollution to charge the batteries, but that came from hundreds of miles away. It will affect the ecosystem and the climate, probably, but the busy city street will be a bit cleaner, more "eco".

Batteries need to be replaced from time to time, even the rechargeable ones don't last forever. This also creates some waste, and takes effort to re-use what can be re-used, so there's a bit less waste. But there is waste.


Banning private cars, with good quality public transport and bicycle infrastructure are a sensible, long term option. For several reasons. Same, unfortunately, goes for motorcycles as well. Though we needn't fear, common sense is dead and buried. I would expect my son to get to see cars/motorcycles run by humans outlawed, for "safety concerns" though.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: BBROWN1664 on 09 October 2018, 01:32:59 pm
Quote
The so called old and "dirty" cars tend to be cleaner than new ones when you look at the cradle to grave emmisions for the reasons you have given.
Except the older diesel ones, they visibly spew out diesel particles and soot. 


You will probably find the cradle to grave emmisions for these is still lower than your new Euro 6 diesel
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: slappy on 09 October 2018, 05:14:34 pm
The big problem with any electrical vehicle is you have to charge the batteries using electricity. If everybody in the future is running an electric vehicle how much power has to be generated to just to charge all those batteries?
To be green it all has to be done using renewable power supplies, so massive wind farms and solar panel farms etc have to be built, where are they going to build them?  Sticking a few solar panels and a little wind turbine on your garage is not going to do it!
Has there been any studies done into how much power a country like the UK would have to generate if every vehicle was replaced by an electric one?
The grid just about manages to cope when the adverts come on during Coronation Street and everybody sticks the kettle on :)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: tommyardin on 09 October 2018, 07:08:05 pm
FFS Pass me another bullet Betty  :eek   :2guns :car
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: Dudeofrude on 09 October 2018, 07:23:07 pm
Moving on to electric cars doesn't solve anything... just passes the buck. They may not need fossil fuels but the rare earth metals used in the batteries are just another finite resource that will be mined to death until we 'realise' they're running out and will have to move onto the next thing.
Not to mention how much pollution is causeed in the mining and creation of these batteries. I'm sure I watched a documentary on it at some point that stated it was more damaging to the environment creating a single electric car than a normal car would cause in its whole lifetime

I personally say the future in in hydrogen atoms but as far as I've read the tech just can't get off the ground. There are a few companies than have done it successfully and can run cars on water with nothing but harmless vapour coming out the tail pipes..... but the big oil companies are bulldozing anyone that tries to make it into a commercial enterprise
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 09 October 2018, 08:05:29 pm
 Wind turbines will never kill anything like the number of birds say killed by cats each year, or killed on the roads, or pesticides etc etc.  Birds are also generally smart enough to avoid wind turbines.  Not saying there are no birds killed by wind turbines – but in the real world it just simple is not an issue.  I’m not aware of noise pollution issues relating to wind turbines, sure it’s talked about but it’s bull shit.


But anyway, conventional power station is about 40% efficient with a 15-20% transmission loss.  They are crap.  However, crap as they are, charging an electric (electric motors are extremely efficient) car from this energy source is still more efficient than some even more crappier in energy efficient terms – and that’s the cars and motorcycles we are running about in/on.  The internal combustion engine needs to become a thing of the past – it will become dinosaur technology.


Nuclear Power?  Have they sorted out the waste issues at Sellafield yet?  You know the stuff from the first generation of reactors.  Umm no.  It’s like getting power now and pay later. 



Look it doesn’t matter which way you look at it – all energy at some point in the relatively near future has to become renewable. 



Don’t forget that we only have one source of energy at the end of the day and that’s the sun. 



Wind turbines have evolved to become proven cheap technology.  Solar and battery technology is going through that process.  The next leap forward for battery technology should be graphene.  Some folks reckon commercial graphene batteries are just a few years away. It will also solve the range issue.



Slappy has a point. 



Quote
To be green it all has to be done using renewable power supplies, so massive wind farms and solar panel farms etc have to be built, where are they going to build them?  Sticking a few solar panels and a little wind turbine on your garage is not going to do it!


Tidal and wave power too.  All over the fucking place.  We need more hydro schemes and big batteries (graphene again)  to try and store energy.


We need more electricity, but we need energy efficiency just as much.  We all live in energy inefficient houses leading our energy inefficient lives. 



But yeah right now today.  A family wanting a second car?  Lots of people, I think, are going to go electric for the second car.

 
And if nothing happens, if there is no change.  Well forget saving the planet, it’ll be fine, but there will be no more human race.
 
 
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 09 October 2018, 08:35:00 pm
Zero point energy
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: agricola on 10 October 2018, 11:14:01 am
Energy sources are all in the control of companies that run for making profit, from generation to end use. Planning for the future is not going to happen while this remains the case. Same with the water industry. Unaccountable to anyone. National planning is required.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 10 October 2018, 04:05:32 pm
Agree.
Privatisation was a big mistake.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: mtread on 10 October 2018, 06:26:53 pm
I think one factor being missed, is that 'ownership' of vehicles, as we know it, will dissappear. The 'Car Club' principle, together with driverless vehicles, will change things dramatically. You want to go somewhere, and you whistle up a driverless electric taxi. Whether it's just to go shopping, or on holiday, it'll drop you off and pick you up. It'll be a sad day for motorcycling. We might be the last generation to own and ride bikes.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: agricola on 10 October 2018, 07:25:02 pm
I think one factor being missed, is that 'ownership' of vehicles, as we know it, will dissappear. The 'Car Club' principle, together with driverless vehicles, will change things dramatically. You want to go somewhere, and you whistle up a driverless electric taxi. Whether it's just to go shopping, or on holiday, it'll drop you off and pick you up. It'll be a sad day for motorcycling. We might be the last generation to own and ride bikes.


Unlikely. History has shown thus far that govts will use economic measures to change habits: i.e. taxation. Zones which you will have to pay to enter/use/drive through. Local taxation schemes to fund alternative transport infrastructure etc etc. Some areas already have theses schemes, others are sure to follow. They still want us to use the private motor car because it raises massive revenue, as does the oil industry which still wants us to burn fossil fuel, hence melting the ice caps to get at the reserves
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: mtread on 10 October 2018, 10:17:44 pm
Governments will tax whatever is being used. Tax on oil will be replaced by tax on mileage, electricity or whatever. The motorcar replaced the horse and cart in less than 20 years.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 11 October 2018, 12:42:39 am
Quote
They still want us to use the private motor car because it raises massive revenue,
You'll be paying a subscription to have a car available.  As Mtread says anything can be taxed.  Or not taxed.




Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 11 October 2018, 07:16:48 am

Quote
For fear of being accused of racism and causing offence.
Absolute nonsense.  What evidence do you have for this?


The lack of evidence is the proof. No one dares to say anything.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: mtread on 11 October 2018, 09:54:42 am
If I don't have any Bananas, is that evidence that Bananas exist? 😉
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 11 October 2018, 10:40:19 am
Quote
The lack of evidence is the proof.
Guilty as charged your honour! :eek
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 11 October 2018, 10:41:23 am
 
Quote
If I don't have any Bananas, is that evidence that Bananas exist? 😉
Hang on a minute - what about God? 
   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: mtread on 11 October 2018, 10:47:21 am
Of course God exists. I've seen the paintings.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 11 October 2018, 11:16:09 am
I have a painting of a Yeti.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: mtread on 11 October 2018, 11:34:54 am
Andy Warhol painted a banana
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: fazersharp on 11 October 2018, 02:04:14 pm
I have a painting of a Yeti.
Are you sure it is a yetti or were you mistaken because of Gods long flowing yetti-like white beard
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 October 2018, 09:35:00 am
Quote
The lack of evidence is the proof.
Guilty as charged your honour! :eek

But when anyone does provide a link to such an article, or ones on similar issues, even if they're by a recognised publication, you dismiss them as fabrications if they don't support your version of reality :lol



Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 14 October 2018, 10:02:01 am
True or false?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-gyimah-crackdown-on-students-silencing-free-speech-x28jx85fc (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-gyimah-crackdown-on-students-silencing-free-speech-x28jx85fc)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 24 October 2018, 05:55:44 pm
Quote
The European Parliament has voted for a complete ban on a range of single-use plastics across the union in a bid to stop pollution of the oceans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45965605 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45965605)
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 24 October 2018, 09:42:15 pm

It estimates the EU plastic pollution is 150 thousand tonnes, but the global total is 8 million tonnes.
Blimey a bit of effort is also required elsewhere in order to make a significant difference! :eek
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 25 October 2018, 12:14:30 pm
Just an excuse in this country to collect extra taxes. Little snip it I heard or read this week 1 council admitted there is no market any more for recyclable plastics even chine doesn't want it and they had to resort to burning it but it helped to generate energy. So from that is it safe to assume most of the recyclable plastic we put in our recycling bins finishes up in land fill????????? :eek   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: tommyardin on 25 October 2018, 05:49:12 pm
Just an excuse in this country to collect extra taxes. Little snip it I heard or read this week 1 council admitted there is no market any more for recyclable plastics even chine doesn't want it and they had to resort to burning it but it helped to generate energy. So from that is it safe to assume most of the recyclable plastic we put in our recycling bins finishes up in land fill????????? :eek



Certainly a percentage of it goes into land fill but what that percentage is no one is likely to say.

It is like cardboard and other packaging if it is dirty or greasy it goes to land fill sites, it would cost more to salvage it than the material value.

Who you going to believe? Some say recycle other say not.

We as the older generation may never know, but our kids and grandchildren will certainly have to pick up the tab, whether that is a financial tab or having to live in a polluted atmosphere with depleted plastic ridden seas.   
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: YamFazFan on 25 October 2018, 07:26:17 pm
We as the older generation may never know, but our kids and grandchildren will certainly have to pick up the tab, whether that is a financial tab or having to live in a polluted atmosphere with depleted plastic ridden seas.   


They're the worst offenders there is when it comes to littering!.

I've lost count of the number of times you see them slinging all the packaging straight down on the floor once they've consumed the food or drink.

I've never seen a pensioner deliberately drop a single piece.
Title: Re: Plastic waste in seas/oceans
Post by: steve 10562cc on 25 October 2018, 07:38:47 pm
I will continue to fill the recycling bins done my bit then. I have no control over what happens to it next, we can protest, shout, scream, vote for who we believe to be the best of a bad lot, but money talks for greedy, not the needy so those that are in a position of power will do as they please not what's right.