Author Topic: Gen1 Generator (Read 3042 times)

old son · « **on:** 08 October 2016, 06:07:03 pm »

Hi Guys, I have an issue with my 2004 Gen 1. The mulitgauge shows the bike is not charging. The bike broke down in the week and I guessed it was the regulator. I've checked the old one and it appears to check out OK. I had previously changed the connector from the regulator and it now has the upgraded push fit power pole connectors.

My next guess would be a defective generator. I have an old engine in the garage and it has a generator on it so I have spares. What part is likely to be at fault in the generator and how easy is it all to strip and rebuild?

characticus · « **Reply #1 on:** 09 October 2016, 05:45:17 pm »

Do you have a multimeter? Check resistance of stator windings. Should be around 0.3 Ohms between each of the three white wires and no continuity (open circuit) between each white wire and ground. If not then change the stator.

old son · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 October 2016, 07:00:20 am »

Thanks, the generator checks out OK. Definitely not charging. Does anybody have any ideas what the problem could be?

PaulSmith · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 October 2016, 02:26:40 pm »

Quote from: old son on 08 October 2016, 06:07:03 pm

...I had previously changed the ...

The first thing to check is always the bit that you changed. You really do have to give a lot more information on what you tried and what you got if you want help.

For example, what do you mean 'the generator checks out ok'. What is a generator, how did you test it and what were the results?
If you meant the stator, then a static test should show the same small resistance between each of the wires, a dynamic test should show around 30v AC on each of the lines to the reg/rec with the engine at fast idle. The reg/rec should be showing about 14.5 volts on its output side. The battery itself should be tested. Take it out of the bike and leave it for an hour. Healthy is over 12.5v, weak is 11 to 12v. Dead is less then 10v. If it is not full, charge it over night, disconnect the charger and leave it for an hour before testing again. If it is under 12.5v, replace it.

old son · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 October 2016, 03:13:23 pm »

The bike has been running fine since I changed the power pole connectors. These have been inspected and they are tight.

The existing regulator was checked and found to test out OK. It was tested by checking each set of white wires through first the red (then reversed) and then the black (then reversed) all as shown on a you tube clip posted by a company selling rectifiers etc. I bought a new rectifier anyway and fitted that - Exactly the same - not charging.

Battery is about 6 months old - I have already tested the battery, left on the bike for 24 hours after being fully charged and showing 12.6V

The test on the stator (I called it a generator) was the static test and it showed 0.3 ohms between all of the white wires.

What should I check out next please?

characticus · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 October 2016, 09:49:12 pm »

1. Do the dynamic test as recommended by Paul. If you get at least 30v (make sure you use a.c. range on your meter) at fast idle, increasing voltage with revs. You can then more or less assume stator and rotor are ok i.e. the generator is ok.
2. If batteries ok, then its either the rectifier/regulator at fault or the connections between. Can you measure the battery voltage between the red and black wires at the recitifier? The red wire connects to the battery positive and the black wire to ground.

old son · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 October 2016, 07:30:16 am »

Thank you. I'll try the dynamic test.

old son · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 October 2016, 07:28:28 pm »

My dynamic test showed around 22v AC on each of the lines to the reg/rec with the engine at fast idle. Would this voltage drop be enough to cause the problems I have experienced?

characticus · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 October 2016, 07:50:36 pm »

Sounds a bit on the low side. I assume you are measuring with the rectifier disconnected (you should be). The three voltages should be the same, and up around 50V when you rev the bike to 5000rpm. I'd take the cover off and see if any of the coils look black or burned.

old son · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 October 2016, 07:54:45 pm »

Thanks, that will be my next job.

PaulSmith · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 October 2016, 04:11:43 pm »

I still dont know exactly what you mean 'not charging'. And I don't know what the rectifier test you are talking about is. Can you give more details include what voltages and/or current you measured and where. Please run all the tests I suggested and report the results.

An additional test you can try: What is the voltage across the output of the rectifier with the bike running and what is the voltage at the battery terminals. Any significant difference would suggest a fault in the cable or connections between the two. If this voltage is over 13.5v then there is nothing wrong with the charging, but you might have a fault with the multiguage. If you are getting less then 13v at the battery then you do have a fault in your charging system.

old son · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 October 2016, 09:10:40 pm »

The battery is not being charged. When I put a meter across the battery terminals I do not see any increase in voltage when the engine is revved.

I have a second Fazer and I transferred the rectifier onto that to check it was working. The battery on that Fazer increases to around 13.9V when the engine is revved and increased to 14.2V with the rectifier from the Fazer that is not charging. This has confirmed the rectifier is OK.

I measured the voltages of the white leads from the stator with the engine running. I used the connector under the side cover above the foot peg. They are around 22V at tick over and increase to 60V ish when the bike is revved. I did the same on the Fazer that is working and the results were the same.

I took readings of the three white wires going into the rectifier. They were reading the same voltage as I got at the plug under the side cover.

I then connected the three white wires from the stator to the rectifier and measured the red and black coming out of the rectifier and the reading was around 1.8V.

I have checked the fuses in the fuse box under the seat. I also found a 30amp fuse tucked down the side of the battery. That tested OK.

That is as far as I have got, I don't really know what to try next.

characticus · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 October 2016, 10:09:18 pm »

With everything connected are you able to probe the voltages at the rectifier connector? If so what do you get between red and black with the engine stopped and with it running? What is the a.c. voltage between the white wires when everything connected with the engine running.

Did you measure the 1.8v with the rectifier disconnected from the battery - not a good idea, you might damage the rectifier.

old son · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 October 2016, 06:40:54 am »

I will check the voltages as you suggest this evening. I did have the red and black disconnected to the regulator with the engine running. That was how I got the 1.8V.

It's looking like I need an auto electrician to resolve this.

PaulSmith · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 October 2016, 12:36:48 pm »

Quote from: old son on 12 October 2016, 09:10:40 pm

The battery is not being charged. When I put a meter across the battery terminals I do not see any increase in voltage when the engine is revved.

I have a second Fazer and I transferred the rectifier onto that to check it was working. The battery on that Fazer increases to around 13.9V when the engine is revved and increased to 14.2V with the rectifier from the Fazer that is not charging. This has confirmed the rectifier is OK.

I measured the voltages of the white leads from the stator with the engine running. I used the connector under the side cover above the foot peg. They are around 22V at tick over and increase to 60V ish when the bike is revved. I did the same on the Fazer that is working and the results were the same.

I took readings of the three white wires going into the rectifier. They were reading the same voltage as I got at the plug under the side cover.

I then connected the three white wires from the stator to the rectifier and measured the red and black coming out of the rectifier and the reading was around 1.8V.

I have checked the fuses in the fuse box under the seat. I also found a 30amp fuse tucked down the side of the battery. That tested OK.

That is as far as I have got, I don't really know what to try next.

Please! Stop telling us half the storey. don't tell us what you didn't see, tell us what you DID see.

Quote

When I put a meter across the battery terminals I do not see any increase in voltage when the engine is revved.

What voltage DID you see before you revved and what voltage DID you say after you revved?
Have you run the test I asked you to:

Quote

An additional test you can try: What is the voltage across the output of the rectifier with the bike running and what is the voltage at the battery terminals. Any significant difference would suggest a fault in the cable or connections between the two.

It is sounding to me more and more like a cable or connector failure between the rectifier and the battery.

old son · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 October 2016, 01:56:03 pm »

What voltage DID you see before you revved and what voltage DID you say after you revved?

I saw 12.7 V at the battery before I revved and 12.7 V after I revved. That is why I said I did not see any increase in voltage when the engine was revved.

An additional test you can try: What is the voltage across the output of the rectifier with the bike running and what is the voltage at the battery terminals. Any significant difference would suggest a fault in the cable or connections between the two.

I then connected the three white wires from the stator to the rectifier and measured the red and black coming out of the rectifier and the reading was around 1.8V. The battery showed 12.7V

Based on your suggestion it would seem I have a cable or connector failure between the rectifier and the battery. If it is a direct connection between the two I can run some temporary cables to bypass the existing cables and connectors. Can you confirm if this is the case?

PaulSmith · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 October 2016, 06:10:48 pm »

Quote from: old son on 13 October 2016, 01:56:03 pm

An additional test you can try: What is the voltage across the output of the rectifier with the bike running and what is the voltage at the battery terminals. Any significant difference would suggest a fault in the cable or connections between the two.

I then connected the three white wires from the stator to the rectifier and measured the red and black coming out of the rectifier and the reading was around 1.8V. The battery showed 12.7V

Based on your suggestion it would seem I have a cable or connector failure between the rectifier and the battery. If it is a direct connection between the two I can run some temporary cables to bypass the existing cables and connectors. Can you confirm if this is the case?

Quote from: old son

I did have the red and black disconnected to the regulator with the engine running. That was how I got the 1.8V.
Quote
I am sure this is as frustrating for you as it is for us, but... Final test... Engine off, with the regulator connected to the battery, can you measure the voltage at the battery, and the voltage on the red and black of the regulator (do not unplug it!). If these two voltages are not the same, then the regulator is not correctly connect to the battery, you can do a continuity test to see which cable broken. It is a direct connection and you can run temporary cables, but this might not fix your problem.

old son · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 October 2016, 06:30:01 am »

ITS FIXED!!!!!

I spent a couple of hours last night taking all the joints apart and cleaning them up. I also stripped the Power Pole connectors to make sure they were making good connections. The fault was with the black cable from the rectifier and its connection in the Power Pole. The cables are almost as large as the housing they solder into when connecting to the terminal in the Power Pole. There must have been a bad connection here even though it has performed very well for at least six months. I re-soldered the connector, put everything back together and hey presto I now have 14V at the battery with the engine running.

Thank you to everybody who contributed for your help and patience. Its very much appreciated.

tommyardin · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 October 2016, 08:54:05 am »

Quote from: old son on 14 October 2016, 06:30:01 am

ITS FIXED!!!!!

I spent a couple of hours last night taking all the joints apart and cleaning them up. I also stripped the Power Pole connectors to make sure they were making good connections. The fault was with the black cable from the rectifier and its connection in the Power Pole. The cables are almost as large as the housing they solder into when connecting to the terminal in the Power Pole. There must have been a bad connection here even though it has performed very well for at least six months. I re-soldered the connector, put everything back together and hey presto I now have 14V at the battery with the engine running.

Thank you to everybody who contributed for your help and patience. Its very much appreciated.

I have been reading this post with interest, not just because of the electrical issue involved but also the dynamics between those who contributed to the discussion. I am really pleased that you have sorted out your problem Old Son, it is always such a relief when you manage (With Help) to sort out an issue that has been dogging you and seems to have no obvious cause. If it is something that is broken and you can see it, then the answer is obvious replace the offending part but with some electrical problems you can neither see it, smell it or touch or tastes it (Taste it refers to antifreeze in water, smell could refer to that nasty smell you sometimes get from your pants when you nearly over-cook it on that hairpin bend lol!) but I am genuinely pleased it is sorted.

I had a similar problem a couple of years ago with my headlights failing, I would be riding along and then just get thrown into total darkness, headlights out side lights out instrument failure, switch off leave it a short period and switch back on and lights would return along with all the other associated equipment. This issue went on for a long time, I had checked about everything I could think of, ignition switch, light switch, dip switch, connections under the seat, battery connection. It transpired to be a large white multi-pin electrical connector under the left-hand-side fairing infill panel. Rain water or through cleaning the bike had got into this connector and had caused it to corrode internally causing the intermittent fault up front. I cut the wires either side of the multi-pin connector and bared about 15mm from the end of each wire, tinned them and slipped a 50mm length of shrink fit insulation over one of each pair of wires before soldering them together (Make sure the shrink fit is well away from the wires as you solder them) this is a permanent fix and as I do not see any reason in the near future why I would want to undo these wires this seemed the answer to the problem, that was 2 years ago and have had no problems since then.
The wires that go to this white multi-pin connector are all colour coded so there should not be any issues of knowing what goes where, as it is a straight one to one connection, but I always take a photo or two with my mobile before taking anything apart. I under stand that is from the expression 'Belt & Braces'
Good Luck and best wishes Old Son.

tommyardin

old son · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 October 2016, 10:06:49 am »

Electrics are like a black art to me. I need a pointer and I'll play but I soon run out of ideas on what to do next. It seems that many people that know about electrics assume people like me who don't, already know the basics. Most of the time we don't!

I really appreciate anybody who takes the time to help, not only on the technicalities but also bothering to find spare parts they know they have such as a shim Anutz sent me recently and I will always do the same in return.

Thank you also for your input, I'm sure it will encourage others to help where they can.