Date: 28-03-24  Time: 23:13 pm

Author Topic: front brakes  (Read 4286 times)

ghostbiker

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front brakes
« on: 15 October 2011, 12:46:25 pm »
Well since i was 12 or 13 i have had bikes and in all this time i have NEVER changed brake pads lol.
i have done shoes on older bikers i have striped 2 strokes down to nuts and bolts,replaced brake lines, done a fair amount of work on many bikes and on the whole love to work on the fazer.
So affter going out today to give the bike a once over before next weeks track time i found 1 of the front pads has disintergrated. im 90% sure it happened yesterday as the brakes felt a little off on my ride.

So its about time i finaly faced up to my fear and do what most would think as simple.... change me pads :P
Sadly dont have time to order a set in (£20 for a full front koyo set from busters) so had to get from my local spanner. WOW i forgot how expensive he can sometimes be. £40 for a set of Koyo but i need them for early next week and am off to kent on tuesday so had to get them.

Kinda pissed the pad has gone like this, all the other 3 pads are less than half used and a fair war from the wear marker so i assume the one that fell apart was to.

Got me Haynes manual out and will attempt it later, will be a simple pads out pads in i hope as anything more than that and im gunna strugle. so as i sit and relax before getting ready for lots of swearing i thought i would post here..... for no real reason :P



ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #1 on: 15 October 2011, 02:38:48 pm »
There is a reason i never touch brakes  :rolleyes :rolleyes :eek :rolleyes :rolleyes

droped out old pads and was about to replace one side thinking wow this is pish easy when i had the thought..... well if its that easy i will pump out the pistons a little way and just clean them a little, first 2 no problem, pumped them out a little way and toothbrush and pushed back in.
then the next two, pop one pops out.... fluid everywhere.

seemed to push back in with no problems thank god. fitted pads and did other side (not cleaning quite as well) no problems at all.

but as i had fluid leak out (i had no idea it would do that) when the piston poped out i must now have air in the system as no matter how much i pump the leaver i have nothing at all, not even moving the pistons.

Now i assume its just air in the system on the 1 side i poped out. so i think it will be a simple case of bleeding that side and bobs your uncle twice removed.

the problem lol is 1 i have no fluid, 2 i have no hose that fits the nipple, 3 i HATE bleeding brakes and finaly 4.... I REALY hate bleeding brakes lol
no where close to get any fluid or hose so looks like a bus ride when i can be arsed to and have finished swearing :P

devilsyam

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #2 on: 15 October 2011, 05:07:12 pm »
sudda asked id appy done it for ya
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ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #3 on: 15 October 2011, 07:14:38 pm »
well its dark so i given up! lol
i have some brake but not enough and there binding a fair bit to (could be just needs bedding in) . im sure there was fluid on the pads as i could smell it smoking off as i went round the block.
Had allsorts of problems bleeding them as at first every time i lossend the nipple fluid came out the thread but not the nipple. so whiped out the nipple and cleaned it, dabed a little grease on the thread and that sorted that problem. i dont seem to be getting air out anymore but theres little preasure on the leaver (never is much there at the best of times)
i fucking hate brakes lol
was ment to be doing the hoggin the bridge in the mornign (paid for it and the tshirt and badge that need to be picked up on the run) but thats a washout, in to the spanners monday morning if he has room as off to brands tuesday lol

ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #4 on: 16 October 2011, 10:29:50 pm »
Well tried the old "tie the lever to the bar over night" trick and it worked enough to give me some brakes at least., now the pads have setled in a bit the dont seem to be rubbing (and therefore smoking lol)

I havent been happy with the front brakes since i had the bike but they have allways been passable and never had a problem mot time.
had a thread a while ago about how the lever touchs the bar with ease, and now its doing it with total ease. the bike still pulls up "ok" and at low speed if i slam it to the bars it "just" manages to skid/stoppie

Im convinced its not right though and as i wanted to do a track day on wed im not happy enough with them to risk it :(
I realy doubt i can get it in to my local spanner at short notice for the work to be done before tuesday, let alone him having new caliper seals and a master cylinder kit without having to order it in. so looks like im foc-ed :'(


On a brighter note i did nurse it to hoggin the bridge run which was awsome as allways. and i got me T shirt and pin badge :P  :D :lol

GrahamB

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #5 on: 16 October 2011, 11:08:07 pm »
 Feeling your pain. I would have cleaned the pistons without pushing them out any but it's a bit late for that I know. As for bleeding them I normally end up using 2 or 3 different methods. 3-4 quick pumps of the lever before releasing the pressure at the nipple whilst also tapping the brake lines should get "some" resistance at the lever eventually before tying the lever back over night. Just pumping the lever & holding it back with fluid reservoir lid off should bring bubbles to the surface but as you already know, it's a ball ache of a job which takes way too long. Replaced the front hose on my Fazer earlier this year using above method. Lever is rock solid now.  :D I have fitted blue spot front callipers & braided hose to one of my old FZ750s. It was the same story trying to bleed them too.  >:

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #6 on: 17 October 2011, 12:16:34 am »
If you're getting no bubbles out of the bleed nipples then the air could well be in the hoses and the small amount of fluid the lever moves isn't enough to push the bubble down to the callipers. A good way of shifting it is to send it up towards the reservoir, that way gravity helps you rather than hinders.
Carefully squeeze the brake lever with one set of callipers off (and pads out) until the pistons are most of the way out of the cylinders, a bit of wood about 12mm thick and about 30mm wide for them to bump up against is a good way to discourage them from popping out... just keep an eye on them to make sure they extend evenly. Once the pistons are clamping the wood you can stop pumping and gently force the pistons back in, a couple of G-clamps and an old screwdriver as a lever can help. This pushes any bubbles that had found their way into the hose back up where they can escape into the reservoir.
Leave the cap on the top of the reservoir while you're doing this, the whole point of the exercise is to have a brisk flow of fluid to sweep the bubbles along and you don't want a jet of the stuff squirting out over the paintwork!
Repeat for the other side and you should have an air free system again.

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #7 on: 17 October 2011, 07:47:19 am »
When I recently rplaced my pads I did the same, although I managed to push the piston back in before all the fluid came out, but a small amount of air still got in so I also had soggy lever syndrome. I cracked open both bleed valves on the calipers to let a minimal amount of fluid & hopefulyy the air out which helped a little but didn't cure the problem so I did a search in the old forums and found a trick which resolved the issue for me - cable tie the lever to the bar then crack the banjo bolt where the line joins the master cyliner enough to let a bit of fluid out, make sure you put some cloth over the fairing & infill panel first. Apparently some air gets trapped at this point when bleeding the system and this is the best and possibly only way to get rid of it.

ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #8 on: 17 October 2011, 09:20:12 am »
Im convinced the air is out, or at least isnt the problem

Its had squidgy lever since i brought it with 2k miles on it 4-5 years ago. its allways gone back to the bar although would pull up with max breaks long before it reached the bar.

in that time its had braided hoses fitted, fluid changed at least 4 times and been bleed at least 3x as much as the fluids been replaced. all to no or little effect
its now also got affter market levers but dose the same with the OE i have.

as i say its allways done it to one degree or another, but now (most prob because i have just been touching them so am thinking about them) feels slightly worse than its allways done.
i was going to go the whole hog and replace all caliper seals and dust seals and a master cylinder repair kit just to kill or cure it. but the 5 kits OE (1 master cylinder and 2 caliper kits diff sizes per side) come in at £155 inc vat.


So if the caliper seals aint leaking and look "ok" is it worth replacing them, would it make a diff to the feel of the brakes? im thinking no at this point but im hardly a guru

Would replacing the master cylinder repair kit make a diff? this is harder to tell as if this was at fault i doubt i would "see" and leaking but would meen its been at fault since 2k miles.... i find it unlikely but possable.


I know air can cause the lever the feel i describe and come back to the bar, but it can not be air in the system every time as its had so many bleeds by diff mechanincs and friends over the years, including pipe replacements and full removal a couple of times.its been preasure bleed and many other ways over the years i cant see its air causing it. yet every time i take it anywhere or ask advice all i get is "its air" they fuck with it for a day and hand it back saying thats as good as it gets. and charge me a packet for the pleasure of chaning nothing.
if every time it gives the same feel i cant see how its possable air is traped in the same way each time.


its just my luck fowlups dosent have a master kit in stock so what ever happens its unlikely i can get it sorted for the wed track day :(

ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #9 on: 17 October 2011, 11:02:54 am »
Well we will see how it ends up, but its gone in to my local spanners.
Couldnt belive my luck when he had a master cyclinder repair kit in stock (he is a little back street place with small stock) so he is going to ......

#1 Fit a master cylinder kit
#2 pop out and clean up the pistons /make sure the seals are in fact ok (he highly doubts theres anything wrong with them)
#3 clean the pistons (he places money on this being the cause of them sticking a little and i agree as i didnt do a great job cleaning them)
#4 throw it all back together and give it a compleate fluid change (again) and bleed through


If this has little to no effect then he has a FJR 1200 master to try on it, and if that dosent change anything then he is kinda at a loss as everything SHOULD be in perfect working order and the only 2 options open affter that is ...
#5 replace the calipers
#6 fit brembos or something lol

#7 Maybe its just me asking more of the brakes than they actualy give and i have to high expectations. only way to test that is let another 1000 gen 1 rider have a blast lol. :lol



its been such an ongoing thing from such low milage im starting to think its #7
but at least useing the same guy for most of my bikes since i was 16 payed off and he threw asside a few other jobs to fit me in at short notice :P i love Dog :)


ps thats Dog Motorcycles and nots Dog's as in the K9's :P

Fazerider

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #10 on: 17 October 2011, 01:02:53 pm »
The only time I've had brakes that felt spongy with new pads and there wasn't air in the system was when one of the front discs warped.
If the disc is dish shaped the pads get pushed back so far that the volume of fluid the lever can shove into the cylinders isn't enough to take up the slack. Take a close look at each disc as someone squeezes the lever for you... if the edge of the disc moves a visible amount then that could be the problem.

ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #11 on: 17 October 2011, 01:11:46 pm »
I did think about that this morning, had something along those lines on a ZX10, slight warp on the disc pushed the pads to far from the disc.
but if you pulled the lever then pulled it again (pre moving the pads) it worked fine.

i did have the disc's checked last time i tried to trace the problem and they have little wear and are true... or they were lol.
i doubt its changed but i will get it checked again to be safe. nice to get some ideas that are not "it's air" lol thx

ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #12 on: 17 October 2011, 06:53:00 pm »
well that did the trick all right, New master cylinder kit fited and jobs a goodun.
the change is a big one, they now feel much more like a brake should feel.
Still at a standstill the lever will touch the bars although with a little more preasure needed now to get it there than has ever been needed before in the time i have had it.
But the real diff is before it gets half way to the bars there is enough brakes to lock it solid at 60mph.... :eek oops
remind me to test it a bit more before i do that next time :P
much better feel.

the thing that scares me is even when they went in today to get sorted there was enough front brakes to pass the MOT test, yet they were totaly dangeous IMO. scary stuff

so yay will still be able to do the track taster session on wed affternoon :)

Fazerider

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #13 on: 17 October 2011, 11:11:03 pm »
Well, I didn't expect changing the master cylinder seals to sort it, but you live and learn I guess!


Hope you have a dry day at the track now you've lost your poor man's ABS. :lol

pitternator

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #14 on: 18 October 2011, 07:32:59 am »
Ghost
Best bet is to get a fellow fazer rider to ride yer bike and see what they think to the brake action.
I have now ridden over 60k miles on my two fazers , and have only ever had 1 brake issue, that was years ago  when the front wheel bearing collapsed and  the discs kept throwing the pads off the disc, giving the lever back to the bar as you describe. Other than that , the brakes have been excellent. I had my old brake lines replaced earlier this year which was  a noticeable improvement in brake power.
What I also noticed is how the hard braking at Cadwell trackday  on the 30 th actually must have cleaned up the pads as the feel and power of my brakes has definitely improved.One thing is for sure, you can ride around brake issues without really noticing it , so its always best IMO  to get an independant opinion. Its my reason for always getting a dealer to service the brake lines and fluid. Changing pads is a 10min job I do myself unless its brake fluid change time.

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #15 on: 18 October 2011, 04:12:31 pm »
I fitted braided hoses and change the pistons seals a while ago, more for piece of mind then because they were needed, as I always found the Fazers brakes to be very good with nice feel and control. Two things came out of that 1) very good brakes became great brakes! Loads of feel, one finger control - and 2) they were a foccer to bleed properly. The angle of the outlet from the master to the hoses allowed a tiny bit of air to trap which gave a soft feel no matter what I did. In the end, I took the master off the bar and hung it from a make shift support to get all the angles right.

phil on a fazer

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #16 on: 18 October 2011, 04:13:50 pm »
Carefully squeeze the brake lever with one set of callipers off (and pads out) until the pistons are most of the way out of the cylinders, a bit of wood about 12mm thick and about 30mm wide for them to bump up against is a good way to discourage them from popping out.

 
you can get those Brake piston tools http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/040815113?da=1&TC=SRC-brake  (ive seen them cheaper than this one, seen them for about £25ish)
 
i think most peoples worries/problems are they don't know how to far to pump the piston out before it pops out. i know people on here have asked for the piston sizes before to try and combat this problem.
 
I think if your going to clean your brakes a lot then buying a tool like the one listed above will be worth it.
 
Phil
« Last Edit: 18 October 2011, 04:14:21 pm by phil on a fazer »

mickdel

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #17 on: 19 October 2011, 10:53:07 am »
Markiewales showed me how to do it many moons ago, but the break bleeder kit I ordered never arrived.   I think they are essential.   It took him next to no time to do the pads, and clean pistons etc,  so if your're near Church Crookham you could give him a shout.   I know he is an infrequent visitor, but Sir Topham Hat on the Thou site is a good mate.

How much did it cost all in incl. fluid to have yours done in the end.    It is one job that I think I am capable of as it isn't so fiddly.
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ghostbiker

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Re: front brakes
« Reply #18 on: 19 October 2011, 12:52:31 pm »
All in was 100 but I paid 40 for the pads which is OTT as I was in a rush. I coulda also got the master kit cheaper to by about a fiver

So was about 40 labour charge and fluid to replace the master kit, clean and check seals on pistons and bleed etc.

Not bad as it was a push job to fit me in at short notice