Curiosity of national proportions

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 I'm Scottish.  I object to be called British.  Scotland is currently part of the UK.
 
 

I'm against devolution - primarily because it just seems to be an excise in getting more civil servants jobs.

 Devolution has been good for Scotland.  We've always had our own education and legal system.   Devolution means that we are now responsible for a whole host of areas that effect the daily running of our country.  eg, Health, local government, social work, housing, planning, transport, police and fire services, the environment, agriculture, forestry, fishing, sport etc etc.
 
 This is definitely softening the blow of having a Tory government at Westminster.  Our roads and hospitals ain't gonna be privatised for example.  No prescription charges, free eye tests etc.
 
 But what Scotland needs to do is move on.  We can't raise taxes, we can't run our economy, we have no say on foreign policy.  We have a government in Westminster that hardly anybody voted for up here.   We've got more Pandas in the zoo than Tory MPs.
I'm hoping for and will be voting for full Independence.   Scotland and England are now politically on different paths, we don't fit together any more.
Whether we do become Independent by 2015 remains to be seen.  That the Scottish Parliament will become more powerful goes without saying, that's inevitable.  We may become economically independent but still part of the UK, I think that's silly, but I'll still take it over Tories running our economy. 
So my nationalism is political, it's not about rose tinted specs and jumping up in down wearing a stupid kilt, it's about where we are going as a nation, taking responsibility and having accountability.
As for nationality.  It's probably the culture in which you grew up in.  Or for some, it's not where you come from, it's where you are going.  In that respect I'm optimistic that lots of English people in Scotland will also vote for Independence.

[Phil TK]

If people ask me I say I'm English, but I don't mind being called British.
 I don't think Scottish people should duck being called British, especially since their country benefitted so much from the riches of the empire of the same name.

[richfzs]

And Scotland is part of Great Britain, whether you like it or not.

[BIG MAC]

What's so Great about it?

[richfzs]

These days Trev, not so much 

[ddtwelve]

to me ya can have scotland (as long as you dont want our british tax money )  cant stand the place,

[Tcat2001]

Made in Wales

[Chillum]

If we ever sell this dump and get to actually move to Wales, I'll be voting for independance as long as Wales get's it's share of North Sea Gas :P

[BIG MAC]

Wales's North sea coast will be awash with gas rigs..
And those who think the uk supports Scotland ...can't count or believe the eyewash from the ConDems. Labour terrified as they would never get back in if their Scottish vote walked aint much better. Scotland has about 5.1 million population - England and Wales who have enjoyed Scottish oil propping up thier spendthrift councils...54million...do the sums people...England and Wales would be gubbed without Scotland and its about time you realised it. What Scottish Banks couldn't achieve in ruining your economy...Scottish independence absolutely would.

[Looney tune]

to me ya can have scotland (as long as you dont want our british tax money )  cant stand the place,

    (when words fail )

[Looney tune]

Aurelio Russell Cano and proud to be Scottish ( Spanish roots only come in when it comes to International football )

[Phil TK]

- England and Wales who have enjoyed Scottish oil propping up thier spendthrift councils...54million...do the sums people...England and Wales would be gubbed without Scotland

As I inferred in an earlier post, modern Scotland was founded on empire money. If the English hadn't allowed you Scots unfettered indulgence in the fruits of that domain you woukdn't be half the nation you are. I think the North Sea Oil is a fair return for that bountiful privilege.

[BIG MAC]

And if the impoverished Scots hadn't spent a large part of their time 'going over the top' and being mowed down in order to create your British Empire then there wouldn't have been one...much the same as the tobacco barons were Scots, The Chinese Markets and Hong Kong opened up by the Scots, Australia and New Zealand colonised by Scots (along with English Crims), Television, Steam power, metallised roads, The pneumatic tyre...The ships that allowed the 'British Navy' to rule the seas for years...let's say as a minority partner Scotland has punched way above it's weight for years. Oil revenue invested in Scotland will see England buying water and Hydro power from Scotland long after the oil has gone....because you dont like building nuclear power staions in your own backyard..then again maybe the welsh would like some...I am sure any nation who has been lucky enough to receive nuclear waste from BNFL will be happy to repatriate it to its point of origin.
 
I am not sure that Scotland has much to thank the UK for...our forebears being chased of their crofts to allow English or Anglicised gentry to run sheep for the Northern English Mills....Once upon a time Glasgow was the workshop of the world...not now...failure to commit to the cause has seen car manufacture, aluminium smelting, paper milling, mining, steel manufacture and heavy industry go down the toilet. As an inconvenient 5.1 million out there in the hinterlands until it suits political ends...maybe the double standard chickens are coming home to roost.
 
 

[Phil TK]

And if the impoverished Scots hadn't spent a large part of their time 'going over the top' and being mowed down in order to create your British Empire

 Ha Ha, don't pretend that the Scots weren't in it for the profit and greed as much as the nasty old English were.
Impoverished my arse.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

to me ya can have scotland (as long as you dont want our british tax money )  cant stand the place,

 
Oh dear I feared this might happen as soon as I mentioned Scottish Independence.   Why is it that English people go in such a huff when a Scotsman states his desire to run his own affairs.


 
As for having Scotland, it's not up to you ddtwelve, it's up to the people of Scotland to decide.


 
And help ma boab I find myself agreeing with Big Mac!    Good posts Mr Mac.

If the English hadn't allowed you Scots unfettered indulgence in the fruits of that domain you woukdn't be half the nation you are. I think the North Sea Oil is a fair return for that bountiful privilege.

Now lets not forget that the Scottish people were never asked if they wanted to be part of  'Great Britain'   We were sold out for a few pieces of silver by a parcel of rouges.   It is only right that the people of Scotland are being asked for the first time in the history of the UK if they actually want to be part of the UK.


Scotland's biggest problem is of course is self confidence.  We are our own worst enemy, and England has done a impressive job of exploiting us.    Scots don't tend to believe in themselves and for far too long have listened and believed England's lies.   Without Scotland there would have been no British Empire, or at least it would have been a very much smaller affair, neither of which would have been a bad thing.  The British Empire?  Good riddance! 



Scotland as a country needs to look back at her achievements and realise, that having practicably created the modern industrial world, that we are more than capable of running our own affairs (oil or no oil) and hopefully creating a much more equalitarian society than we currently have, and perhaps help change the direction of the corrupt neoliberal capitalism currently sweeping the globe. 
 


Meanwhile both the Government and Labour party have shat their pants at the thought of us subsidy and welfare junkie Scots leaving the union.  Strange eh?  I wonder why!

I think the North Sea Oil is a fair return for that bountiful privilege.

Yes indeed, it is our oil.

[BIG MAC]

Phil Raises a valid point...yes there were greedy Scots 'Landowners' also involved in the Highland clearances and greedy Scots 'Industrialists' also. However their interests were in doing business with and for the English. An England intent on looking after Scottish interests would not be needing a 'Hammer of the Scots' or dodgy Dutch imports either. Scarily I am near to agreeing with VNA that this is a question of democracy and self determination. I have no vested interest (I live in England) however I think it only right that if Scotland wishes Independence that it should be put to the vote and English scaremongering aside the people of Scotland should decide. I am fascinated why people get so steamed up about it...particularly the English...do you think England 'Owns' Scotland or something or shit scared that in one's heart of hearts one realises that a UK without Scotland is a much poorer one south of the border?
If as we are led to believe Scotland is the scurvy knave of the Union which costs English tax payers dear....get rid of it ....see how much better off you are.
And in the final summation were it not for the Panama canal and Scots punching well above their weight there....There wouldn't have been a Union.

[Phil TK]

do you think England 'Owns' Scotland or something or shit scared that in one's heart of hearts one realises that a UK without Scotland is a much poorer one south of the border?

 In a word ...No. I think Scotland enriches Britain massively. I'll be sorry to see you all leave.

[BIG MAC]

No Probs Phil we will simply start www.foc-u.co.scot

We will give all the old bollix - but in Doric!
And as for life as usual, little will change...I don't think they will close the borders anytime soon ASDA still needs to ship those pies and Lidl garden implements never to be used as that would involve excercise and a mid June thaw

[Phil TK]

No Probs Phil we will simply start www.foc-u.co.scot
 
We will give all the old bollix - but in Doric!
And as for life as usual, little will change...I don't think they will close the borders anytime soon ASDA still needs to ship those pies and Lidl garden implements never to be used as that would involve excercise and a mid June thaw

 
Sadly and ironically, I think you'll eventually become part of federal europe. When you've had enough of being bullied by Brussells and find you miss being bullied by us instead, you'll be back.

[BIG MAC]

Nah we may become part of Europe but they can keep their Euro...we might let the English use our poond though even although for years the uninitiated have claimed 'It's not leegil tendah moite' as you will all know the English Banknote is now a promisory note excatly the same as a Scottish one. So we willnae be having any of yur monopoly munny up here......

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

In a word ...No. I think Scotland enriches Britain massively. I'll be sorry to see you all leave.

 
Time for a foc-u group hug?


 
We have to wait and see what happens.  The likely date for the referendum is some time autumn 2014.  A lot can happen in that time.  And of course we need to know how David Cameron and chums see devolution evolving if Scotland decides to stay in the union.  And vague promises and suggestions won't do.


 
And again I agree with Big Mac, not a lot will change.  If we go Independent we'll all wake up and wonder what the fuss was about.  However in the longer term we'll both start to see changes and real noticeable differences.





Here's a thought, if a Tory government increases the possibility of an Independent Scotland, then at the same time, a Tory government may make it so much more difficult for Scotland, if and when, she chooses to go.  We already seen a lot of nasty childishness from English Tories.


 
But if we can have an amicable separation, and if, and that is if, Scotland makes a success of it, then I have a feeling that will have a beneficial political and economic knock on effect for England.  If we make a hash of it (and nasty scum bag Tories could play their role here) it's gonna hit the former UK as a whole.


 

Nah we may become part of Europe but they can keep their Euro...
 

Being part of Europe is inevitable.  The pound is preferable today, but it might be the Euro tomorrow.   Europe has a lot of lessons to learn.  And if Europe is going to continue it's  neoliberal capitalist love affair, then Scottish economic experts and politicians better make sure their rose tinted specs have been well and truly binned, as Scotland will have to fight for concession after concession and in completely the opposite direction from which England is doing so.

[alan sherman]

What gets me is the practicality of separation (if that is the outcome).  Although Scotland has quite a lot of independence today (e.g. Legal systems, a lot of government), there are things that are not separate that will be costly, and largely ineffective to separate that will leave a messy situation. 

Examples are:
Border control is the obvious one - with different Governments it will become an issue. 
Armed forces,
air traffic control,
utilities and infrastructure (national rail? The separation committee would draw lots to see who gets encumbered!),
Sea boundaries,
international territory boundaries,
all the organisations across the world that will need to change their systems to recognise a new country.

[BIG MAC]

Border control...we have a welcome to Scotland sign...our welfare state will put up another sign which says 'I wouldn't bother' in a number of non English languages.
No need for armed forces we will emulate the national guard / gendarmerie. If someone invades us for our Irn Bru we will set big Maggie from Easterhoose on them.
Air traffic control...'Money in' - 'Mugs out' simples...
Rail is largely privatised...Eurostar will simply run all the way up and we will likely pay England rent.
Scotland is already pretty much 'power independent' and grid useage tends to be propped up by France overnight...hey we can run an extension lead over to Norway
Sea Boundaries..if its got oil under ours....if its got jobbies and three eyed fish under....yours
International territory boundaries remain..we just join the dots on the route of Hadrians wall
International organisations...dunno we would be too interested... NATO  is an anagram of NO TA ...nah we would likely want to keep heads low and cash registers ringing...

[DryRob]

Don't want to be inflammatory here but how many other countries do you think will want to trade with an independent Scotland that only has self interests at heart and won't help with international peace keeping?
 
As for Scottish independence, if the Scots want it then give it to them. The UK has said the Falklands have the right to self determination, why not Scotland?

[BIG MAC]

Most of them....the object is trade and profit...they superpowers dont give a monkeys who the money belongs too so long as they get some...My view on international peace...don't interupt....there's plenty whop want to be the World's Policeman and Scotland with a population of 5.1 million has a smaller population than Singapore whereas England Wales and NI have about the same as Italy!