Date: 28-03-24  Time: 18:58 pm

Author Topic: Cornering  (Read 7994 times)

Flooky

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #50 on: 19 June 2019, 12:14:21 pm »

This thread is pants, and misleading for some one who asked a question.
You can steer a bike without bar input (remember the white helmet display team, the fella that climbed a ladder on the back and steered AROUND the arena )...also when you let go of the bars to do up your gloves you can still steer with your foot pressure on the pegs.
Tyre diameter is less at the edge (go round a series of bends at a steady throttle opening in the same gear and the revs will rise and fall as you tip in from upright as the gearing of the bike changes)
And Kevin Scwantz was talking about braking , when asked "when do you brake for a corner " he replied when I see god.
Sorry.

fazersharp

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #51 on: 19 June 2019, 12:16:12 pm »
Slowing down on entering a corner has nothing to do with the hypotenuse formula of the gyroscopic effect translated to the coefficient of friction diameter based on the angle of corner entry, its cause you have scared yourself and backed off the throttle - which is why you still have chicken strips  :lol   
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Re: Cornering
« Reply #52 on: 19 June 2019, 12:31:53 pm »
I'm confused by my own shit now.......it was def mentioned in relation to cars.....and ships do it.........maybe bikes are totally different........forget about contact patch on the road and think more about heat loss during cornering or energy loss.....or do tyres not get hot whilst cornering.....or are they just as hot whilst cornering as they are in a straight line?......think on that foccers, this thread is good i reckon it could end up a good thread of nonsense :lol


Anyway to keep flooky happy.....the answer is you know when the limit is reached when you fall off.....i suppose chicken strips could also be called in the bag strips.....something extra in the bag for when shit goes wrong so that you dont fall off......mmmm....chicken.....in the bag.....chicken in the bag.......so hungry


Always carry a bag of KFC when considering riding near or at the limit.... :b
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Grahamm

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #53 on: 19 June 2019, 12:58:34 pm »
You can steer a bike without bar input

Yes, to a small extent, but I wouldn't want to try *cornering* like that!!


YamFazFan

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #54 on: 19 June 2019, 01:12:01 pm »


Always carry a bag of KFC when considering riding near or at the limit.... :b


You certainly will be if the grease leaks out of it :lol

fazersharp

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #55 on: 19 June 2019, 01:25:10 pm »
in relation to ships .........maybe bikes are totally different........
By- all-the-gods !!! I think you may be on to something. :rollin
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VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #56 on: 19 June 2019, 04:12:06 pm »
 Y
Quote
ou can steer a bike without bar input (remember the white helmet display team, the fella that climbed a ladder on the back and steered AROUND the arena )...also when you let go of the bars to do up your gloves you can still steer with your foot pressure on the pegs.

Yes at low speed there are a number of ways of steering the bike, but at speed there is only one way to make the bike turn and that is input to the bars. 
 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #57 on: 19 June 2019, 05:09:32 pm »

robbo

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #58 on: 19 June 2019, 05:40:53 pm »
If you follow motorcycle racing MotoGp/WSB, when the director cuts to an onboard camera, you'll hear the revs rise as the bike is cranked over, the gearing has effectively been altered as the bike's on the edge of the tyre. The speed remains the same, but with an increase in engine revs, as the rear wheel diameter has momentarily become smaller.
« Last Edit: 19 June 2019, 06:42:30 pm by robbo »
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Flooky

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #59 on: 19 June 2019, 06:00:37 pm »

Hold on, I am just saying you can steer a bike without the bars, no one said anything about at speed, VNA said you can go to work without leaning at all...well I would be fukin late for work.. I don't even know where this chicken strip shit comes from, just cos your leaning over far doesn't mean your going fast, I don't worry about mine cos I have a normal size cock, and where ships come into it fuk knows...like I said this thread is pants.
I just think some good advice when a fella asks a question is nice, at the moment he is changing all his suspension, trying to keep upright while making sure his tyres are the same diameter right across and have no shiny bits...
P.s  you can tighten your line if your running wide by trailing the back brake.(its cheaper than ohlins too ).the only good advice was you go where you look.
sorry again

fazersharp

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #60 on: 19 June 2019, 06:28:48 pm »
I just think some good advice when a fella asks a question is nice, at the moment he is changing all his suspension, trying to keep upright while making sure his tyres are the same diameter right across and have no shiny bits...
:lol :lol
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #61 on: 19 June 2019, 08:34:33 pm »
 
Quote
Maybe you got a sidecar...or a shit tape measure
Yeah, I think maybe I go that one wrong. :o   Though doesn’t it stay the same opposite side to opposite side diameter. ;)   I’ve never thought about it before.  I mean what does it matter anyway. :lol


So the wheels will speed up on entering the corner.  I guess the twitch must come in when the wheels are slowing and speeding up at different rates?  I dunno :lol


Quote
Hold on, I am just saying you can steer a bike without the bars, no one said anything about at speed,
The question was about cornering, and I got the distinct impression it was about cornering at speed.  And let’s face it cornering generally takes place at speed.  Turning is something else.


I tend to agree with the California Superbike school – who as I understand it, state that you can do what you want with your feet, your thighs whatever, but if you wanna be in control of the bike, and you wanna make it turn – you have to put input to the bars.


If you can steer your bike Flooky, you should be able to go round a decent sized roundabout at a decent speed whilst sitting bolt upright.  Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.
 

Slaninar

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #62 on: 19 June 2019, 08:59:05 pm »
My long drivelling on countersteering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2530/countersteering-bicycle-steering/

And on cornering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2586/fast-cornering-with-a-bicycle-on-paved-roads/

All written in the cycling context, but the basic principles are practically the same.
Most things done in a hurry need to be done again - patiently.

agricola

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #63 on: 19 June 2019, 09:20:22 pm »
Ive watched the motogymkhana folks a few time snow, looks to me to be a different tecnique ofr cornering. I reckon they crank the bike over but stay upright themselves. Cornering at speed is a question of balance, the rider shifts his mass over to one side (hangs off) while trying to keep the bike as upright as possible. Go faster into the corner and you then need to lean the bike over more. This subject can be over analysed

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #64 on: 19 June 2019, 10:44:26 pm »
 
Quote
Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.

It’s trying to put it right.  Maybe I should try;
 
Leaning is an important part of getting a bike to corner at high speed, but only input at the bars will make it change direction / initiate the turn.  And for that matter end the turn.


As think Agricola is saying, leaning is an important part of balance, shifting the centre of gravity to maximise grip etc.
 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #65 on: 19 June 2019, 11:46:35 pm »
Some years ago,Rob Mclnea [racer and team boss] locked the bars so they would not move to see if the bike would turn and he reckoned the bike wouldn't steer at all,so according to him you must have to have input on the bars to steer,and I think he'd know. :smokin
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Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #66 on: 20 June 2019, 10:21:59 pm »
That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel

Steady on chaps.....!!!! What we need here is harmony.... DO YOU HEAR ME FOCCERS...!!!???....HARMONY...!!! :eek :finger :wall :pokefun :smash :2guns
« Last Edit: 20 June 2019, 10:25:12 pm by Steve3351 »

Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #67 on: 22 June 2019, 01:05:37 pm »
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy.......wot do u FOCCERS think...????? :lol :rollin :'(

Grahamm

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #68 on: 22 June 2019, 07:33:25 pm »
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

Quote
the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...

agricola

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #69 on: 22 June 2019, 08:45:51 pm »
Trail braking, no thanks. Either be on the throttle or on the brakes, no slack time in between the two, cos thats lost time, its one or the other, turn in later, lets you get on the throttle quicker and out of the exit. On the track of course

Dudeofrude

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #70 on: 22 June 2019, 09:29:06 pm »
Trail braking is a brilliant technique that I personally think every rider should learn. It gives you so much more control through the corner and is especially useful on the road where there is a chance of the conditions changing mid corner.
You basically still brake as normal up to the corner but instead of letting go and coasting, you taper the brakes off until the Apex then you go straight back on the throttle. Theres slightly more nuance to it but that's the general just.

People going on about braking mid corner being dangerous clearly don't understand how it works.  If done correctly it gives you more grip and more stability.

If you dont know how it works (or how to do it properly) then I'd suggest watching a few YouTube videos on the subject before trying it for yourself.

Once you get the hang of it you'll be surprised how much more confidence you can get through the bends

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #71 on: 22 June 2019, 10:10:34 pm »
 I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.
 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #72 on: 23 June 2019, 12:16:27 am »
I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.


Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.


Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.


A brusque Yorkshireman who was also a top racer on both Road Courses (like the IOM TT) and Race Courses once told me at a racing school class that my "trail-braking" that I thought was the way to get my speed down in a corner was me "lining myself up for an early grave".


On the roads and generally on the track (except at the highest levels of skill) riders trail-brake because they get a corner wrong, entering. turns too early and then trying to slow down once in the corner.


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


As I said a couple of sentences Steve, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, unless they're a professional - this is your life you're playing with (especially if you're going to try to ride harder/faster on the roads by trail-braking more !!) - go to a proper track school (not a Track Day, a School session) and get professional advice - it might just save your life !!!

Millietant

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #73 on: 23 June 2019, 12:28:38 am »
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

Quote
the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...

Sorry Grahammm & Dude, I have to disagree, trail braking into a bend is not a good thing. I agree with your comment Grahammm of getting the braking done before you hit your turn in point.

Regarding the braking to the apex comment - I've never been taught to brake to the apex and then apply throttle  at the apex and I really think that's a bad approach. Most racers are already on the throttle before the apex. The apex isn't where you aim to stop braking, the turn-in point for the corner is basically where you stop braking.

There's an excellent section in the book "Twist of The Wrist" by Keith Code which explains this clearly (there's a lot of other tecchy stuff in the book that's hard to read too though) - Keith Code founded the California Superbike School and has taught many of the world's top riders over the past 30 years and the first time I did a CSS racing school day, they taught it exactly as it says in the book and still do.
« Last Edit: 23 June 2019, 12:33:03 am by Millietant »

Dudeofrude

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #74 on: 23 June 2019, 08:50:15 am »
I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)