Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: reggit on 03 August 2017, 05:37:54 am
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just dropped the oil on my very much abused bike (separate thread), a lot of water condensation in it as expected.
Will running cheap mineral car oil for around 100 miles cause any issues? I want to use it as a flush before changing again to a decent motorcycle spec oil?
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No, no problems with that at all. Good idea, IMHO.
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Ditto, no problem at all.
I have a mate who has run cheap car oil in his bikes for years, never had a problem.
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I wouldn't even run it for 100 miles.
Start the bike, let it idle for 10 mins and then drain.
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I would always do a double change on a second hand bike. For a bike in the condition you described, I would keep changing the oil every few hundred miles until it came out clean, and only then, put the good stuff in. It is not really the distance between changes that matters so much as the heat cycles. Get it up to temperature a few times so the fresh oil can melt and dissolve the built up gunk.
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I would always do a double change on a second hand bike. For a bike in the condition you described, I would keep changing the oil every few hundred miles until it came out clean, and only then, put the good stuff in. It is not really the distance between changes that matters so much as the heat cycles. Get it up to temperature a few times so the fresh oil can melt and dissolve the built up gunk.
That was my idea of a 100 mile run - it's also strangely about the distance to the rally I hope to go to next weekend!
I've put semi-decent stuff in, as I couldn't get cheapo stuff last night and was far too impatient to wait any longer.
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The oil argument has been done to death on every forum.
It's ok to use an a bottle of engine flush in a bikes motor, put it into a hot engine & let it idle for 10-15 minutes, then drain it.
Car oil in a bike motor " Oh no no no sir"
Not a good move at all, anyone that thinks it's a good idea obviously has no knowledge about oils & how they work under load/pressure/heat/shearing forces etc.
Oil companies spend millions developing the stuff.
Car oil for cars, Bike oil for bikes & never to be mixed.
After 35 yrs of looking after my customers vehicles "I'd never mix Car & Bike oil" because i know about the properties of oils, I go through about 40-50 gallons a wk servicing my customers cars & bikes....Never in a million yrs would i consider mixing bike & car oils for any reason.
Ultimately it's your own choice, best advice i can offer is don't do it.
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If you're one of those who have no idea about oils and how they work, and don't have the time to acquire 35 years of experience looking after vehicles, you might like to raise your awareness a bit by reading the following:
https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oil.html (https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oil.html)
For those with ... ahem ... shorter attention spans, you might find the opening sections on oil basics a bit too much like an A-level chemistry course. I did but I persevered with it. When you get older you need less sleep. At night, that is. If you are young and have a normal life, skip ahead to the section on 'Choosing an oil for your motorcycle' and read that and the rest of the article.
A selective quote from this section says it all: "Generally, any oil certified for use in a late model Volkswagon or Mercedes turbo diesel is a good choice." The author explains why - in great detail - before making that statement. The curious may choose to backtrack to find out more. The trusting types will not.
Personally, I've run 10w40 fully synthetic diesel automotive oil in my Fazer for 40k miles with no clutch slippage issues, the usual reason for warning bikers away from auto oils. Ah, but what does my motor look like inside? Very clean, far as I can tell from routine maintenance. Still runs like a Swiss watch. But louder. A sizeable number of FZ1 owners in the US run theirs on Rotella-T, the diesel synthetic favoured by the author. Plenty of FZ1s in the 'states have over 100k on the clock. They run like Swiss watches, too. Clever people, the Swiss. But quiet. Except for the cow bells.
Anyway, time was when I would get drawn into extended debate in oil threads but no longer. Let's leave it at this:
It's fair to say that if you don't know what you're buying or understand something about oil other than it's golden and slippery, then sticking to bike-specific oil (preferably fully synthetic) is the safest bet. It will cost you more but the extra few quid are the price of ignorance.
If you take the trouble to learn a bit more by reading, then you can save a few quid and run your bike perfectly well on an appropriate type and grade of fully synthetic automotive diesel oil. I learned this out of necessity. Because bike-specific oils are vastly more expensive than auto oils in Spain, I decided ... well, my wallet did ... that I couldn't afford to remain ignorant (on this, at least) so I researched the subject in depth. As a result, not only am I better off financially, I also have another subject to bore folk with at parties. Win-win.
Best advice I can offer is don't believe everything you read on the internet. :)
Right, I'm off for a kip ...
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Interesting article Mike, I never knew that the fully synthetic oil I was buying was in fact mineral oil, or that a 10-40w semi-synth is essentially knackered by 1500 miles. My take on the article though is it appears quite definite in confirming the commonly held belief that using a cheap car oil in your motorcycle is not a good idea, and outlines a number of reasons for this.
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Using a cheap oil of any kind in a high-revving motorcycle engine isn't a good idea. :)
I was also struck by the bit about how seeing 'synthetic' on the can doesn't actually guarantee that what's inside was totally synthesized by lab rats rather than being a mineral-based oil refined to a much higher specification.
Enlightened, I am.
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All sounds like a load of bollocks to me. :eek
My understanding is that car oils have molybdenum in them, this is actually a slip agent, it helps reduce wear on car engine moving parts by effectively adding extra slip, great, but not on a multi plate wet clutch.
What-ever your manufacturer preference is for motorcycle oil is is a personal thing, but my advice would be make sure it is a 4T oil designed for motorcycles with wet clutches.
£5 or £6 extra on an oil change is a lot cheaper that have to change the friction and plain steel plates in your clutch, plus its a lot less effort and down time.
You pays your money and you takes your chances.
What do Yamaha say? I don't know cos I never looked.
Shell Advanced 4T for me every time, either Fully or Semi depending what is on offer at the time.
Flushing oil with the motor running for 10-15 minutes seems a good move as you are not operating the clutch in the oil your flushing with.
Or change your oil regularly and no need to flush 3.5 to 4K seems a good mileage to change it at, you can change the oil filter every other change, cos it has never had old oil passing through it that has done more than 4K miles
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All sounds like a load of bollocks to me. :eek
My understanding is that car oils have molybdenum in them, this is actually a slip agent, it helps reduce wear on car engine moving parts by effectively adding extra slip, great, but not on a multi plate wet clutch.
Not bollocks at all. :)
If you would spare the time to read the linked article, you would learn that not all car oils contain molybdenum. Far from it. It's also easy to find out which do and which don't.
However, you have your way of approaching this and that's fine.
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Had to fit new clutch, flush the engine twice to get rid of the car oil to a Bandit 1200 previous owner had used gave a new meaning to slipping the clutch expensive oil and filter change. I was always told never use car oil in a wet clutch bike.
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Unlucky you, paying the price for someone else's ignorance. :(
That's a good enough reason for many to say 'nah, not interested in deviating from bike-specific oil' and I understand that. But like I said, it's so easy to work out which auto oils will cause problems and which will be good for bike engines. You just have to be prepared to do a bit of research and use your noddle. :)
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Had to fit new clutch, flush the engine twice to get rid of the car oil to a Bandit 1200 previous owner had used gave a new meaning to slipping the clutch expensive oil and filter change. I was always told never use car oil in a wet clutch bike.
I'm with you Steve car oil is a big no no as you found out to your cost because of someone else ignorance, glad you got it sorted.
They make motorcycle specific oil for a reason and before someone say 'Yeah to rip us poor motorcyclists off' you can say that about all sorts of specific related sports gear, trainers for instance is it necessary to spend £100 plus on them, £6 a metre on climbing ropes, £120 on a Shimano Baitrunner fishing reel? No of course not, but you just might wish you had as your hurtling down a 80 metre shear rock face with a bit of frayed hessian in your hand, or the carp of a lifetime on the end of your line and the cheap plastic handle of you reel falls off. Is that sole flapping about on those trainer you bought off eBay for £14.99. Or has my clutch just started slipping?
If you love something you treat it the best way you can, whether its fishing, running, rock climbing or motorcycling, or,heavens forbid even her indoors. Treat one of them with contempt and you could end up in deep doo doo.
I wonder what does Yamaha say about the correct oils to use in the motorcycles.
And as far as reading the article Falcon posted I could do the oil change in the time it took me to read and inwardly digest that and then I would still continue using motorcycle specific oil.
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This is a good thread......i'll have a swatch at that thread on my night shift but just as a general rule then Mr Falcon.............I've got a 2006 Mercedes Sprinter Diesel so if I get the best quality fully synth stuff for it I can also perhaps use it in the fazer.......that would be very handy to just bulk buy and only have 1 type of oil lurking around in my shed 8)
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I stay away from any auto oil labelled Energy Conserving II as this will have friction modifiers that will screw a wet clutch.
I also avoid oils with viscosity ratings of 30 or lower; 0w30, 5w30 and so on. First, because Yamaha recommend a 10w40 oil for typical UK temperature ranges (-10c to 40c) and second because there's a possibility that these lower viscosity oils may have friction modifiers, even if they're not labelled as Energy Conserving II.
I discovered today that Yamaha used to list 0w30 oil as an option for use in extreme cold conditions but dropped that from later models. Rumour is that it was in part due to a number of clutch problems caused by owners using low viscosity auto oils which had unspecified friction modifiers.
Auto or bike-specific, everything I've read suggests that semi-synth oils tend to fall between two stools. They will be Group II mineral-based oils with perhaps 30% or so synthetic stock added. Since a mineral 10w40 will be pretty much reduced to a 10w25 within 1500 miles in a motorcycle motor, I don't believe - personal opinion, I stress - that a semi-synth blend will fare that much better. I like to go 4k miles between oil changes so that rules out semi-synth oils of any kind for me.
While it would be great to be able to use only one oil type in your Merc Sprinter and your bike, that depends on the viscosity rating Merc recommend for the van. If they're anything like FIAT specify for the turbo diesel in my motorhome, they might call for a 0w30 or 5w30 oil which falls under the 'too thin to be sure, don't use' criteria I follow for my Fazer and R1.
Since I live and ride in temps of 10c to 45c, my preference is a fully synthetic 15w40 or 20w50 C-rated (Commercial/Diesel) oil. The price point I aim to buy at usually means that the synthetic will be a Group III mineral-based synthetic rather than a PAO Group IV 'true' synthetic.
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Cheers Mike
yeh you've brought up another important point there.....my bike will be for hot sunny days only so I wont really need a low viscosity product and i'll probably stick with 10W40.
My van on the other hand will be a camper and my daily runner so it will be out all year round and down to circa -10 in extremes over here in the UK...so i'll need something that can cope with a greater range for it.....also it'll be doing plenty short journeys mixed with big trips...I wont always have the luxury of getting the engine up to temp before setting off in it....probably another need for low viscosity.
I also hadn't realised how much semi synth could degrade and I too like to get a few thousand out the bike before changing it.
I had read somewhere about not changing over from semi to fully if a motor has been run on one type for a long time but tbh I don't really buy into that and I reckon i'll go with some fully synth in both vehicles now.
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I had read somewhere about not changing over from semi to fully if a motor has been run on one type for a long time but tbh I don't really buy into that and I reckon i'll go with some fully synth in both vehicles now.
Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc. :)
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Oh boy, oh joy, another oil thread. :lol
Personally, I just buy a tub of oil, semi-synth, 10-40 with a picture of a bike on it, and usually change it every year along wi the filter. Yes it’s a bit of a rip off for what is usually a pretty basic oil, but they meet Yamaha’s spec and with that their service interval.
However, I hear what Mike is saying, and if the price was prohibitive, and Mike says it is in Spain, then I’d be reading that article and a few others from reputable sources. I’m pretty sure there are other options other than those with a picture of a bike on the label.
Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc. :)
Since I bought it in 2004 my Fazer has had a few different bands of oil, mostly semi-synth but a couple of changes were fully synth. Just depends whose stocking what and for what price.
Running in? Oh boy, oh joy – that’s another whole thread. :z I’m not convinced that that one is entirely just a myth. Seeing as you don’t sleep much Mike, here’s an interesting article (that’s if you haven’t come across it already;
http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running (http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/running)
Anybody fancy a thread on super unleaded? :D
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Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years. This is just like old times! :lol
As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can.
When I first moved here a typical bike synthetic oil was three times the price of the same oil in the UK. It was also twice the price of an auto synthetic over here. I was aware that loads of US FZ1 forum members used auto oil in their bikes (typically Rotella-T) and so I researched online to find out more and to determine which European (ACEA) oil specs matched the API ratings.
I settled on Carrefour supermarket own brand diesel synthetic and have used that for over a decade now. It used to come out of the Mobil facility in Rouen. Latterly it's been suggested that it's an Elf or Total product which suggests that the supermarkets bulk buy from whichever major refinery gives them the best deal. Friends here have used the same oil in a range of bikes and none have had any clutch issues. I learned this morning that the Spanish Africa Twin community love the Carrefour 5w/50 stuff, too. Nowadays it's sold as 'Essence & Diesel' meaning that they've stopped packaging it separately for petrol or diesel motors.
The stuff I have in the Fazer right now is actually 5w/50 and rated ACEA standard A3/B3/B4, and API SL/CF. A word of caution.
If you decide to investigate using auto oil, too, don't confuse ACEA C-ratings with API C(Commercial) ratings. They don't mean the same thing.
The running-in article is a new one on me and made interesting reading. I've always subscribed to the idea of breaking in a motor fairly briskly, if you get my drift. My Fazer was an ex-demo bike so would have had numerous heat cycles and some fairly regular excursions beyond 6k rpm before I got hold of it. It runs beautifully. :)
The info from Castrol on the use of synthetic oil too early in the life of an engine was the first I've seen to support the 'not before 10k miles' line. Not because it's too slippery (which would be bollocks ;)) but because of the unknown chemistry factors somehow at play.
Super unleaded? Super stuff. But not in my Fazer ... ;)
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[quote author=Falcon 269 link=topic=23009.msg265634#msg265634
Another of the many oil myths on the internet, along with don't use synthetic until the bike has done 10k miles etc etc. :)
[/quote]
10ķ miles? My bike is 10 years old and only hit that last month 😥
Best go get some fully synth now that it's worn in haha
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Haven't had a go in a good oil thread for years. This is just like old times! :lol
Last time we did an oil thread it went on for endless pages and caused a few headaches. :wall
As you rightly say, if an oil meets Yamaha's specs and stays 'in grade' for whatever oil change interval you work to, then it doesn't matter what pictures are on the can.
Not quite what I was saying. I think the fear is it can meet the API spec (which is pretty basic in the case of the old thou) but wreck the clutch cos it has a friction modifier in it. So that’s why, being lazy, or playing safe, I choose an oil with a picture of a motorcycle on it. Or if you wish to be a little more scientific about it, you look for a JASO spec ie JASO MA2 rather than just a picture of a motorcycle :lol
JASO MA2 means - This specification was introduced in 2006 for modern motorcycle engines. As well as being a higher standard of oil the JASO-MA2 approval means the oil is suitable for use in bikes with catalytic converts in the exhaust system. JASO-MA oils don’t contain friction modifiers.
Yamaha specifies API SE I think.
In my garage I have found the following;
Silkoline super 4 – API SF,SG and SH JASO MA2 10/40
Silolene comp 4 – API SL JASO MA2 10/40
Motul 5100 4T - API SG,SH,SJ,SL,SM JASO MA2 JASO T903 10/40
Castrol Edge 5130 – VW 504 00/507 00 5/30
Quantum Platinum – VW 502/00 5/40
I think the problem is the oil manufactures are a bit vague as to which oils they use friction modifiers in and which they do not. And yup it pays em to be vague, as they can them sell us the same oil, or a cheaper lower grade oil for a higher price. Good for them and good for the motorcycle retailers but we get ripped off.
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A lot of what get said about this grade and that grade of oil, what has got slip agents added and what has not, it can just becomes a talking point and can stop you really making up your mind about what way to go oil wise, If the extra few quid a year that would be spent on on bike specific oil is that important to the owner then you really are on a tight budget.
If the cost of bike specific oil is £10 per 4 Ltrs, and given that you do maybe two changes a year at 4,000 mile intervals we are talking about £20 quid a year for oil changes, add to that the cost of one filter £6 your looking at £26 quid a year half the cost of a pair of mediocre trainers, and likely a quarter the cost of a set of friction plates for the old girl, plus no downtime and no hastle replaceing the friction plates and gasket and replacing the oil yet again.
FFS go buy 4T oil and sleep easy, and, before you say it's alright if you can afford to but the more expensive stuff, it's cheaper than the bike being off the road for perhaps a week while you order the plates and fit them, and pay public transport fares to get to work if your lucky to live on transport routes. Let alone getting a bollocking off you boss for being late. Shall I keep bigging this up or leave it at that.
Of course you can do what you like but don't squinny about slipping clutches, the price of clutch plates (And you always change the springs at the same time) and having to pay someone £40 to trailer your bike home.
I love the wind up
BUT! there is a lot of sense in it.
Happy Days :'(
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Kinn ell, this is going on longer than Dallas, somebody start a "which is the best tyre" thread ffs.
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I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
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Yamaha specifies (in the 2005 owner's manual) API service SE, SF, SG type or higher. When you check the API website, it says that all these specs are obsolete. It also cautions that SG may not be suitable for petrol engines built after 1993. The other two are not suitable for motors built after 1979 and 1988. WTF?
What VNA said about the JASO MA1 & MA2 specs is true. JASO are the only organisation that actually test oils for clutch slippage in motorcycles. If you're really concerned about this possibility, it follows that you should only buy a JASO MA1/2 approved oil. But a lot of the bike-specific oils on sale in the UK haven't been tested by JASO, so where does that leave us? :)
The answer is it leaves us in a minefield. As I've said already, if you aren't sure then play safe and get something with a picture of a bike on the can. It's the sensible thing to do. But there are better oils out there and cheaper ones, too. If you feel inclined to work out which is which, you can save a few quid and put a higher quality oil into your motor.
Right, tyres ... round and black works for me. ;)
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WTF?
Indeed.
The answer is it leaves us in a minefield.
Aye :lol
Now looking at the manual for the MT10, that so far I have managed somehow to resist purchasing, it recommends;
Full synthetic
SEA grades 10w-40, 15w-50
API service SG type or higher JASO MA.
WTF indeed.
The other bit that puzzles me is, why if Yamaha are now specifying fully synth oil are we stuck with 6000 mile oil changes.
A 997 911 Porsche for example is 2 years or 20,000 miles.
Which is a thought. I might switch to fully synth and change my oil every other year, rather than every year as I do with semi-synth.
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The cruncher - literally - with any oil in a motorcycle engine is the shearing of the viscosity index improvers (VII) that takes place courtesy of the gearbox.
Synthetic oils have varying amounts of these depending on the viscosity of the base oil and the desired multigrade viscosity numbers. I picked up on the bit in the article which pointed out that 10w40 synthetics have more VII molecules than say, 15w40 or 20w50 oils. Since the VIIs don't lubricate, the more of these required to produce an extended multigrade viscosity range, the less the oil is able to do the friction reduction thing. Also, with more VIIs to break down in the gearbox, the upper viscosity falls off quicker than in oils with fewer VIIs. Make sense? Anyway, as I understand it those are the main reasons why extended life synthetics can't give the same in-service mileages in bikes as in cars. :)
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Funny you should say that Dea...... Bridgestone Batlax T30 has a very good write up much better than the earlier models I site the BT021 as an example, but some believe that the BT023 is a better tyre.
lol here we go again :lol
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Wot about a nice chain maintenance thread 8)
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WD40 explodes O-ring chains. Fact. :eek
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And grey is the fastest colour Fazer thou. :lol
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There is always the elephant in the room. Which grips are best.
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There is always the elephant in the room. Which grips are best.
I find two hands tightly around the fucking throat helps LOL!
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I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
How can you not afford oil? Compared to fuel prices between changes - it mealts down to nothing. Even disregarding that - how much more does motorbike specific oil cost compared to a cheap car oil? 1/2 of a petrol tank price?
I've had bad experiences trying to skimp on oil, so never do so. Always go with motorbike, fully synth oil. It costs about the same in the long run - since it allows for a bit more miles between oil changes, but the main reason for using it is a peace of mind - if anything happens to the engine/clutch, I'm certain it's not caused by poor oil.
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My understanding is that under the same conditions, a fully synth oil will degrade slower than a semi-synth oil, which will degrade slower than a pure mineral oil. So if I want to ride around the world without a service, or just extend the service interval beyond manufacturers spec, I will use full synth. If I am not planning on extending the service period, but want to be safe just in case, I will use semi-synth, but since I normally plan to change the oil more frequently then spec, I am comfortable using whatever I have to hand.
I have never worn out a clutch and I have only ever had a clutch slippage once, which an oil change fixed.
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My understanding is that under the same conditions, a fully synth oil will degrade slower than a semi-synth oil, which will degrade slower than a pure mineral oil.......
Yes but as Mike pointed out a couple of posts earlier it is more complicated than that, a 10w40 semi synthetic which is what most people use in their bikes will be less effective as a lubricant than a 15w40 semi synthetic oil from the get go and will also need to be replaced sooner.
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I've been following this thread from the start and I agree with a lot of the sentiments. :lurk
In the General Aviation industry, we deal with a huge range of oils, like the motorcycle/car argument there are a lot of individual tastes as too where the money goes. The usual oil in use in the UK, (in flying training establishments) is a grade known as W80. There are grades higher than this (W100, W120 & W130) and depending on ambient temperature depends what goes in, i.e. some customers will operate with W80 in the winter and W100 in the summer. Add to the mix, the recommended oils for breaking in an aircraft piston engine (which are known as straight oils with no additives) in the same grades as above and you have a good idea of some of the conversations that take place. I've had customers request the use of 15W50 (aviation grade) as its "a good all rounder" but I've also seen cylinder damage occur in engines using this oil.
So - oil - its a personal thing, like salt and vinegar on chips.
However, in 35 yrs of owning and riding bikes I've never bought a bike specific oil (mainly because I couldn't afford it!) and I've never had any clutch issues either (and the bikes have included most of the Suzuki GS range, Honda singles and twins, GSX1100FL, FJR1300). Depending on the mileage, depended on the grade used - but the GSX for instance was running happily on 20W50 car oil and had 95,000 miles on the clock.
Currently I have a Gen 1 Thou and a VT750 Shadow, both with Asda's 10W40 Semi-synthetic (car oil) in. Both get changed twice a year as a minimum or more if the mileage calls for it. 20,000 miles and 3 years since buying the Yam and not an issue - or have I just been lucky? :rollin :rollin
How can you not afford oil? Compared to fuel prices between changes - it mealts down to nothing. Even disregarding that - how much more does motorbike specific oil cost compared to a cheap car oil? 1/2 of a petrol tank price?
I've had bad experiences trying to skimp on oil, so never do so. Always go with motorbike, fully synth oil. It costs about the same in the long run - since it allows for a bit more miles between oil changes, but the main reason for using it is a peace of mind - if anything happens to the engine/clutch, I'm certain it's not caused by poor oil.
Affordability? At that particular time in my life, money was non-existent. To the point I was using 2nd hand tyres on the GS650 I was using at the time (removed from Police BMW's with 5mm + tread left), in order to keep riding to be able to get to work savings had to be made. You obviously did not read the rest of the post, with regards to the lack of issues based on the experiences gained whilst not spending money, which I did not have at the time.
To really wind you up, I semi - retired that particular machine in 2002 with around 65,000 miles on the clock - most of which had been done with car grade 20W50. As I cannot leave things alone, I have stripped the engine to find the internals in very good condition for a machine built in the 1980's. It will be going back together as a resto project and I will be putting whatever oil I choose in it, as it is my choice, based on my experiences and my skills as a qualified aircraft piston engine engineer. (And that qualification and experience covers Radials, Rotarys, Flat 4's, 6's & 8's, Inverted in-lines, V's, Air & liquid cooled, Wankel rotarys, in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke styles!)
I will more than likely, do as the OP asked, as I can now due to being in a better place, put a poor quality oil in and use it as a "flush". It is a good idea. It is unlikely to harm anything unless it is full of the friction modifiers which have been mentioned in earlier responses. :lol
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Well this has totally done my nut in :'( . I've happily been using Motul 5100 10/40 semi synth. For the sake of a few quid, for peace of mind etc would I be better off using Motul 7100 10/40 fully synth which is the same spec as the 5100 but includes API SN and is MOT 118 rather than 112( whatever any of that means). Will be due an oil change within the next few weeks.
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Motul 7100 is Ester based 100% synthetic (no mineral oil) so would be a good choice - https://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/7100-4t-10w40--2 (https://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/7100-4t-10w40--2)
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Affordability? At that particular time in my life, money was non-existent. To the point I was using 2nd hand tyres on the GS650 I was using at the time (removed from Police BMW's with 5mm + tread left), in order to keep riding to be able to get to work savings had to be made. You obviously did not read the rest of the post, with regards to the lack of issues based on the experiences gained whilst not spending money, which I did not have at the time.
To really wind you up, I semi - retired that particular machine in 2002 with around 65,000 miles on the clock - most of which had been done with car grade 20W50. As I cannot leave things alone, I have stripped the engine to find the internals in very good condition for a machine built in the 1980's. It will be going back together as a resto project and I will be putting whatever oil I choose in it, as it is my choice, based on my experiences and my skills as a qualified aircraft piston engine engineer. (And that qualification and experience covers Radials, Rotarys, Flat 4's, 6's & 8's, Inverted in-lines, V's, Air & liquid cooled, Wankel rotarys, in both 2 stroke and 4 stroke styles!)
I will more than likely, do as the OP asked, as I can now due to being in a better place, put a poor quality oil in and use it as a "flush". It is a good idea. It is unlikely to harm anything unless it is full of the friction modifiers which have been mentioned in earlier responses. :lol
I've lived most of my life in a country with an average monthly pay of under 400 euros (most of the time below that number), and still find it a bad economy to spare money on oil. We're talking about 10 euro price difference per oil change (unless prices in UK differ by a lot). I also don't see a point in saving some money per oil change, then doing oil changes more often. For all I know (not an engine engineer though), changing oil more often than specified does nothing to protect the engine better, unless it is a really bad quality oil - even then, the engine is better protected with a god quality oil, changed per manufacturer's recommendations for oil change intervals.
As for engine wear and protection, I doubt that car oil does as good job as a good quality fully synthetic motor bike specific oil. Again - at really minimal savings.
My oil of choice is Motul 7100, 10w40 grade, and so far my Fazer has only about 70.000 kilometers and no noticeable/measurable oil consumption between 6 to 10 k km oil changes (depending on mileage).
Until I see a parallel test of two engines run on a car and motorcycle specific oil, I'd rather not risk it.
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Until I see a parallel test of two engines run on a car and motorcycle specific oil, I'd rather not risk it.
Until I see a parallel test showing one worse then the other, I don't see a risk.
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Until I see a parallel test of two engines run on a car and motorcycle specific oil, I'd rather not risk it.
Until I see a parallel test showing one worse then the other, I don't see a risk.
I understand your point. Also, your vast experience with trouble free use of car oil does sound encouraging. However, for what research I could find (might sound like a digression, but I'll get to the point), synthetic oil is superior to mineral/semi synth oil in terms of high temp stability, low temp flow and engine wear protection. Price difference between good quality fully synth car and motorcycle oil is very small (at least in my country) - of course, most synthetic car oils can't be used with a (motorcycle's) wet clutch. So it boils down to - motorcycle specific fully synth vs mineral oil (price difference between car and motorcycle mineral oils aren't that big either, though bigger than between the synth ones).
It is just the matter of whether the benefits do make a difference in say a 200.000 km long motorcycle engine lifetime, after which probably most other parts will be shot and a new(er) bike will be bought. One should also take prolonged service interval that fully synth oils provide into consideration - since it ends up in less oil changes (less hassle), with similar amount of money spent on oil.
Do you have experience with disassembling similar engines after numerous oil changes - are the ones run with synthetic oils different to the ones run on mineral oil in terms of wear and dirt deposits?
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I think any experienced mechanic will tell you that they can not tell what oil is, or has been in an engine, but they can usually tell you if it has been changed frequently or or not.
Put simply, if you let the oil wear out, it will not protect you and damage will occur. Quality oil will wear out slower then cheap oil, but if you change the oil before it wears out, then you stay protected so it doesn't matter which you use. If you want to be able to change less frequently, then use quality oil.
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I think any experienced mechanic will tell you that they can not tell what oil is, or has been in an engine, but they can usually tell you if it has been changed frequently or or not.
Put simply, if you let the oil wear out, it will not protect you and damage will occur. Quality oil will wear out slower then cheap oil, but if you change the oil before it wears out, then you stay protected so it doesn't matter which you use. If you want to be able to change less frequently, then use quality oil.
For all I know, changing oil too often is also harmful - not as much as changing too late, but far from optimal.
Aren't fully synthetic oils less likely to cause sludge build up inside the engine?
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Affordability? At that particular time in my life, money was non-existent.
We're talking about 10 euro price difference per oil change (unless prices in UK differ by a lot).
I remember those days too. As a second year SSEB apprentice I was chuffed to bits to get my hands on my old boys Opel Record 2.0 My old boy wasn’t one for wasting money on cars, and in fact the old Opel had been making him money on travelling expenses as he continued to refuse to accept a company car. So it was pretty well worn by the time I got my hands on it. It had 120,000 on the clock, though that had been faulty in the past so it was more like 140 or 150k – a lot of miles for a car in them days. It wasn’t long before the old thing wasn’t too keen on starting. The starting routine ended up something like this – get the air box off, free of the carb flaps, prime the carb with petrol, wack the starter motor a few times with a solid steel bar, place car in gear and rock backwards and forwards a few times (dunno if that really helped but it seemed to), put the air box back on, get in the car, turn the key and hope for the best. It was frequently bump started and it was always a good idea to park facing down hill.
The battery was pretty much done and eventually gave up the ghost. I didn’t have money for a new one, so I bump started the car, drove it to work, got the battery out and took it to the chemistry department at the Power Station I worked at. There I emptied out the battery acid and then it was filled with fresh strong acid. That got me another two months out of the battery. Every penny counted.
Another feature of that car was it kept running after you turned it off. Presumably cos of the worn out carb combined with lots of hot carbon deposits, at times it would stutter away for a minute or two before grinding to a halt. The gear box eventually was down to 1st,2nd and 4th, and now and again you got some severe valve clatter as the hydraulic tappets were done. It only did 20mpg, but I got some cash from giving folks lifts so that paid for the petrol at 1.50 a gallon.
Oil change? Castrol GTX borrowed from the old boy’s garage. Anyway, MOT time came and that killed it off, so had to cycle to and from work till I got enough pennies together to buy myself something else.
The apprentices we have today, I don’t think they know what skint is, they are all driving new cars on PCP. Back then we all serviced our own cars and fixed anything that went wrong (or ignored it if we could), today they go for a service at the main dealer – all part of the package.
So yeah I know where Mike’s coming from when he says he didn’t have money for bike oil.
Got my bike license on the C90 in 1987. It wasn’t hip, it wasn’t cool, but it was there, it was free and it got me through my test.
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Those were the good old days, I had a beige coloured mk2 Cortina that never had an oil change in 20,000 miles, when the gearbox gave up the ghost I fitted one from a mk1 Cortina that meant I had to cut another hole in the transmission tunnel as the gearstick was now in a different position.
I gave the Cortina to my older brother for free, he did another 10,000 miles in it with no oil change before he wrote it off.
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You were lucky! I used to have a Reliant Robin, that only had reverse gear working. I used to drive it backwards to work every day with a sump full of Mazola 20/50 cooking oil, and then when I got to work we had to drain it so we could fry the chips. Then going home it wouldn't start and I'd have to push it into the canal and row it all the way back again.
Four Yorkshiremen :D
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that meant I had to cut another hole in the transmission tunnel as the gearstick was now in a different position.
:lol :lol :lol
You were lucky! I used to have a Reliant Robin, that only had reverse gear working. I used to drive it backwards to work every day with a sump full of Mazola 20/50 cooking oil, and then when I got to work we had to drain it so we could fry the chips. Then going home it wouldn't start and I'd have to push it into the canal and row it all the way back again.
Steady. For Focs Sake! :rolleyes
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! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo#)
:)
My family lived on about 10e per month during the embargo in my country.
My first pay was about 200 e per month.
But my logic is - if I can't afford fuel, oil, or tyres - I can't afford the vehicle. Never found logic, or economy on skimping on oil/maintenance.
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C'mon chaps, don't let it this thread die, we've only got three pages of yes or no for running car oil in bikes. Lets have some more "viscosity facts & figures" & more, "when i were a lad i used to run me GS850 on our old fellas old cortina oil & it were better for it" C'MON, we want at least four pages. :deal :wall :lol
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All oils are not equal, even good stuff. When my bro was racing his yzf750 it kept doing crank shells. He was recommended motul 300v as it was developed with that motor iirc. He had zero issues after changing. I can't recall what he was using previously, silkolene pro 4 or rock oils race oil. Same grade etc.
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I remember when a woman ( oops person ) came into a shop and asked for some "710" whats grade is that love? " 710 for the engine", the OIL cap was upside down :lol
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I remember when a woman ( oops person ) came into a shop and asked for some "710" whats grade is that love? " 710 for the engine", the OIL cap was upside down :lol
But did she want 710 semi synthetic or fully synthetic and how often was she changing the oil?
She probably used to buy it from here http://www.silkoleneoil.com/store/index.php? (http://www.silkoleneoil.com/store/index.php?)
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:lol Cant believe that at least some companies have a sense of humour :rolleyes,
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As we we are talking about oil what fuel are we using? Supper market fuel? Is it as bad as some say or is the shell super magic stuff worth the extra money? Just asking
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or is the shell super magic stuff worth the extra money?
:eek
Just asking
Aye so you are!