Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: mr self destruct on 06 November 2016, 02:19:41 pm
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When I'm travelling at high (i.e. unrestricted autobahn) speeds, my 600 develops a real reluctance to accelerate.
I'll be doing over 7k rpm and when I open it up it just dies for about a second before picking up again, like I've actually switched the ignition off, which makes overtaking dangerous.
I've had the tank up and checked the fuel lines are in good condition, not kinked or blocked. I've changed the plugs and had it serviced but it makes no difference. The battery is in good condition, TPS is fine (jumping to 5k when tested) so I reckon the next stage is to check the carbs.
I've not checked the rubbers or stripped the carbs down because in my experience with car carbs, any leaking inlet rubbers or sticking needles affect the tickover/low revs more than high revs. Is that wrong though?
The next thing I was going to do is balance the carbs, but before I start I just wanted to know if there's anything obvious I've missed.
What do you think?
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Fuel filter dirty or partially blocked maybe.
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Air filter
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Might be worth trying some STP Complete Fuel System cleaner before surgery - love the stuff.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0)
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Might be worth trying some STP Complete Fuel System cleaner before surgery - love the stuff.
[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url])
Thanks for the link Tiger just ordered a 400ml bottle on fleaBay. Bike is running fine but it is supposed to help clean and maintain the whole of the fuel system so can only do good, and it will help prep it for an overwinter sleep engine wise. (About 10 to 12 weeks)
Hair dressers car in for a new clutch tomorrow.
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Thanks for the replies, I thought the air filter would've been replaced in the service (60k) but I'll have a look at that and the fuel filter this week.
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Might be worth trying some STP Complete Fuel System cleaner before surgery - love the stuff.
[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url])
Thanks for the link Tiger just ordered a 400ml bottle on fleaBay. Bike is running fine but it is supposed to help clean and maintain the whole of the fuel system so can only do good, and it will help prep it for an overwinter sleep engine wise. (About 10 to 12 weeks)
Hair dressers car in for a new clutch tomorrow.
Its the hair spray and styling gel that focced the clutch up
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Ignore the instructions, lob the whole bottle into a full tank of fuel.
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Might be worth trying some STP Complete Fuel System cleaner before surgery - love the stuff.
[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281269295350?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33170564523&rlsatarget=pla-257284465600&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=1007247&device=c&campaignid=661219804&crdt=0[/url])
Thanks for the link Tiger just ordered a 400ml bottle on fleaBay. Bike is running fine but it is supposed to help clean and maintain the whole of the fuel system so can only do good, and it will help prep it for an overwinter sleep engine wise. (About 10 to 12 weeks)
Hair dressers car in for a new clutch tomorrow.
Its the hair spray and styling gel that focced the clutch up
Or your handbag rolling forward and pressing on the clutch pedal :pokefun
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Ignore the instructions, lob the whole bottle into a full tank of fuel.
:agree
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Is it only if you crack open the throttle open at around 7000 rpm and ok if you take it up through the revs say from 4000 to 10000?
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Its the hair spray and styling gel that focced the clutch up
Or your handbag rolling forward and pressing on the clutch pedal :pokefun
Bit rude!
Oow! stop poking me like that or I might have to pinch you with my heated hair tongs :lol [/size]
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Any update on the bike picking up at speed fella ???
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Any update on the bike picking up at speed fella ???
Sorry for the delay in replying. Long story short: Cancer took a close relative, up to me to clear out her house, inherited her collection of cats, house got broken into and a few mates and I had to comvince some squatters it was in their best interests to leave.
Fitted new air and fuel filters, but both were spotless anyway, new plugs, new caps, a good dose of STP (tank almost empty, dropped a bottle in, 50 mile blast, then filled up) all made no difference.
Next step I suppose is to strip, clean and balance the carbs, but you've heard of the phrase cash rich and time poor? Well I've got fuck all of either. :rolleyes
Is it only if you crack open the throttle open at around 7000 rpm and ok if you take it up through the revs say from 4000 to 10000?
That's exactly it. I can cane it from a standstill and it'll pull all the way up to 120 without a problem, but if I'm already doing 90 it just bogs down.
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Change the Rectifier/Regulator
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Will do, cheers.
Any recommended supplier or will it be an ebay job? I usually use wemoto but they don't list one for the FZS600.
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Last time I had that very similiar issue on my sonss Fazer, I bought second hand one from Fazerspares in Bristol, be careful as there are 2 types fitted to the 600 fazers and the one you want is the SH650C-11. Just checked Fazerspares and they have one for around £25.
Static tests on the faulty one showed it was working fine. When I changed the original for the spare from fazerspares all was fine, just to prove it inconclusively we put back the original and problem returned. Only thing I could think of was that it was breaking down. Not a very common problem and which is why I took the risk of buying secondhand
The rectifier regulator from the FZS1000 is exactly the same model with a longer lead.
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Thanks a lot for the advice bud, I'll put one on my shopping list!
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Ordered it from Fazerspares this morning so I'll let you know how it goes soon.
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The title of this post made me smile
Problems at high speed
By Mr Self Destuct
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The title of this post made me smile
Problems at high speed
By Mr Self Destuct
The ironc thing is, the worst injuries I've had on motorbikes have both been at less than 10mph. :D
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Well, it's not the regulator but for the sake of £25 I'm glad I found that out.
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You could do a plug chop. You're not going to solve the problem by doing it but it should give you some direction. You hold the bike at the rpm while the problem is happening and while it's happening hit the kill switch and then take a plug out and check it's condition. If it's dry wet etc. You're trying to get some evidence of what's happening instead of guessing
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Well, it's not the regulator but for the sake of £25 I'm glad I found that out.
Strange, the symptom you described was exactly the same as we had, if you hold it at 7000 for a short while and then gun it it died and then picked up. Fine if revved straight from off to the red line. It happened suddenly. My son had it out one day and all was fine, next day fault was there. We put in a new air K&N filter and oem fuel filter, but no change.
We swapped the following part from my 600 to my sons, coils, plug caps, carbs, ECU, fuel pump, and finally because it was the only thing left to change the rectifier/regulator. It was only when we changed the rectifier regulator did the problem go.
We put the original rectifier/regulator back, problem back.
The bike still has my bikes original carbs on it as it was to much hassle to change them back :lol
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The odd thing is, during the recent cold spell the problem almost disappeared. It'd die for less than a second then pick up. Today it was warmer and it didn't die, but took ages to speed up. I got caned by Golf tdi for fucks sake!
I'll try the plug chop when I can find somewhere to pull over safely, but as it stands I'm thinking the next step would be a carb clean and balance. Trouble with that is it'll take longer than I can spend on the bike in one go, and I can't be without it right now as I'm working my arse off.
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i have been annoyed by this recently (2 weeks into owning a fzs) - and i have read that its just a common drop off in power in that area
do not add tesco higher octane fuel as it seems to get worse (trying hotter plugs soon with hi oc fuel though)
after two weeks i learned the rev range and where i need to be dropping it a peg or two for very quick over takes
3.5k - 7k = town quick //// 8.5+k = racing the back roads and ovetaking like a nutter
the tesco crap hioc fuel i added made things worse at top end
- - i say this before i do my normal new bike carb strip oil and plub change, but i dont see it making much differance
this is all IMO stuff but im 33, riding my own bikes since i was 10ish and around race teams since i was born
check out disorderly punk on youtube for a laugh.
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a reg/rec should not cause issues in this respect - give me a minute here
a reg rec is there to supply power to battery, try a voltage meter you can see, would tell you if anything is wrong there as voltage would drop from 14.5ish to a sub 12v at the problem rev range
i am suffering this same problem and working through it periodicly
DO NOT try using the tesco high octane fuel or pro-milage stuff whatever its called
(actually if someone can and say its shit aswell) as it changed my power characteristics for the worse
i will be going back to standard octane fuel ASAP or maybe some from asda as it is all different (remember it isnt for power its for milage)
i found using standard fuel it is easy enough to learn the rev ranges- remember the fazer is known as a great commuter bike for couriors and the reasons are there to see 4k-7k works great for town 8.5/9k + quick acceleration like a powerband for overtaking on major roads - these are not R6's remember
im with you totaly i want more power and a more usable smooth power range but there are lots of things to consider
- looking at a new 2nd hand exhaust system so will let you know - unless everyone wants to chip in a £1 or two and i will go down to fuel exhaust head quarters and try one out and blag a discount for foc-u users lol (they are actually really close and i want to see there warehouse lol)
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To be honest bud the reg/rec wasn't top of my list of causes, but it's cheap and easy enough to swap, and if it sorted someone else's problem out it was worth a go.
As for petrol, I've always stuck to the Texaco by me so that can't be it.
I wasn't looking forward to stripping the carbs down and cleaning them so I'll do that last. I'll balance them first and see if that cures it.
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I doubt balancing the carbs will have any effect at those revs/throttle openings… if you've difficulty starting/getting a good idle or it's snatchy at low speed it'll help there.
It's much more likely to be one or more slides getting jammed especially if you're snapping the throttle fully open. Does it accelerate OK if you feed the power in gently?
Another possibility is that aftermarket downpipes aren't a totally accurate match for the OEM ones. Some have the link pipes between cylinders 1&2 and 3&4, but most don't match the diameter of the bit after the collector to what Yamaha tuned the intakes,carbs and airbox for. The OEM one is quite constricted at that point some have found sleeving down aftermarket downpipes to about 35mm internal diameter improves fuelling in the middle of the rev range.
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It does accelerate ok if I open the throttle very gently, and I do have aftermarket stainless headers and noticed the larger internal diameter when I fitted them. So would rejetting the carbs be the solution or would it be better to stick with the stock headers? TBH that would piss me off as I ride all year and the stock headers are notorious for rusting.
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I don't think anyone's had much joy with rejetting the FZS600 carbs. A short length of suitable diameter pipe to slide into the collector might be a cheap solution... certainly easier than finding a set of OEM pipes that haven't already rusted through.
Or you could buy new (https://www.ajsutton.co.uk/genuineparts/9655/12/yamaha-fzs600-fazer-1999/exhaust?uID=0)!
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What the fuck?! :eek At that price I could get a replacement Fazer!
I think I'll stop caning it above 90. Seems to be the realistic solution. :\
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Do your headers have the link pipes between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 at the front of the engine like the stock headers. If not this would cause a dip in the revs, but it occurs more around the 5 to 6000 revs mark than 7000.
I was lucky when diagnosing mine in that I had a bike that worked and was able to swap parts to fix the issue and the Rectifier/regulator was the last thing we changed since I was running out of ideas. Both bikes had standard headers and exhaust at the time.
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It's a Motad stainless set with the link pipes between 1&2 and 3&4. I'd heard other types caused problems so made sure I got that spec.
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i run pipe without link pipes didnt make any difference at all still runs clean through the ful rev range and pulls from anywhere in the revs full throttle partial throttle al very clean and crisp i would say your carbs need a proper clean ultrasonic is the best way to clean them
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It's a Motad stainless set with the link pipes between 1&2 and 3&4. I'd heard other types caused problems so made sure I got that spec.
I have the same down pipes on mine and it runs cleanly.
Did the issues come on suddenly or progressively?
Is the choke working correctly and the plungers seating properly when it is released.
This was the first thing I checked when it first happened on my sons bike because I had seen a similar problem on an old GS750 Suzuki when the plungers were not seating fully due to corrosion, a shot of WD40 sorted it out. :)
Have you checked all the usual items like wiring for corrosion.
Drain the float bowls to see if help first and then check the float heights using transparent fuel line.
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I have the same down pipes on mine and it runs cleanly.
Did the issues come on suddenly or progressively?
Is the choke working correctly and the plungers seating properly when it is released.
This was the first thing I checked when it first happened on my sons bike because I had seen a similar problem on an old GS750 Suzuki when the plungers were not seating fully due to corrosion, a shot of WD40 sorted it out. :)
Have you checked all the usual items like wiring for corrosion.
Drain the float bowls to see if help first and then check the float heights using transparent fuel line.
It's difficult to say, in the decent I take the B road route to work where you can't really do more than 60, so it may have masked when the problem arose. It's only been over winter I've stuck to the motorways and noticed the problem.
As for the choke, this might sound odd but I've never touched it. No matter how cold it's been, the bike's always started and ran a treat if you don't count last year's plug cap issue.
I think some carb stripping is on the cards but I'll check the wiring out before that.
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Have you carb tuned since fitting after market downpipes as this will need doing & might help even things out,if you are going to replace with a K/N air filter
do this before tuning carbs.
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I haven't, as I thought the downpipes would be a like for like swap. I have no intention of fitting a k&n either so wouldn't have thought tuning was necessary, but may be wrong given the larger pipe diameter.
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Where is the pipe a larger diameter.
Mine was a straight swap, if anything the end of the pipe for the exhaust was slightly smaller.
I have a K&N fitted and so does my son on his
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i run pipe without link pipes didnt make any difference at all still runs clean through the ful rev range and pulls from anywhere in the revs full throttle partial throttle al very clean and crisp i would say your carbs need a proper clean ultrasonic is the best way to clean them
I am with Daviee,
I have read so much about the S/S headers and collector, I have read stuff like if it doesn't have the 1-2 & 3-4 small diameter links between the base of the down tube the bike will run sluggish and have a loss of it's mid range power.
I replaced my original down tubes after they perforated at the base of the collector about 2.5 years ago, I also fitted a round S/S Pipewerxs Round Sports Can at the same time, (Road Legal with removable baffle in situ) and have to say that my experience had been the same as Daviee's.
My bikes hits 130mph in 6th (Top) gear at 10,000 rpm and will pull on until 142 mph top end with a 16 tooth front sprocket (Sat Nav not Speedometer as speedo is generous to the tune of 4 MPH), speedometer show 146 mph. Would the bike do any more? Don't know pure speculation.
The bike starts sweet, 25% choke in really cold weather, no choke at all if above + 2 or 3 degrees, do not touch the throttle, dab on the starter button bike fires instantly, back the choke off after 15 seconds and bike ticks over sweet.
I have found the bike to perform well with the S/S exhaust system on with no power loss issues what-so-ever, I'm not saying it's better than the Yamaha system, but, it is just as good and looks so much better.
I purchased my S/S Headers on EvilBay I honestly can not remember what I paid for the but I am guessing about £200-£220, and the Pipewerxs can was £180.
The RRP for the Yamaha end can is over £600 and the down pipe and collector over £1200, the £400 I paid for my system pales into insignificance compared to the Yamaha kit, and as said earlier IMO looks a lot better, it performs as well and does not rust, Win, Win.
I tried to go back through my EvilBay history to try to find the S/S headers, but, can only go back 2 years for some reason.
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Where is the pipe a larger diameter.
Mine was a straight swap, if anything the end of the pipe for the exhaust was slightly smaller.
I have a K&N fitted and so does my son on his
If the original can fits on the link pipe I'm guessing it must be an internal pipe restriction, like a pinch point or pinch tube within the exhaust pipe?
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Where is the pipe a larger diameter. Mine was a straight swap, if anything the end of the pipe for the exhaust was slightly smaller.I have a K&N fitted and so does my son on his
It'll be a larger internal diameter at the collector ref Fazerider's post. Fuck knows what I'm going to do as refitting original pipes doesn't seem to be an option any more.
I don't think anyone's had much joy with rejetting the FZS600 carbs. A short length of suitable diameter pipe to slide into the collector might be a cheap solution... certainly easier than finding a set of OEM pipes that haven't already rusted through.
Or you could buy new (https://www.ajsutton.co.uk/genuineparts/9655/12/yamaha-fzs600-fazer-1999/exhaust?uID=0)!
i run pipe without link pipes didnt make any difference at all still runs clean through the ful rev range and pulls from anywhere in the revs full throttle partial throttle al very clean and crisp i would say your carbs need a proper clean ultrasonic is the best way to clean them
I think a strip and clean will be the way to go, but what make are your pipes?
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Motad.
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I am just wondering.
Has anyone ever cut through the 'link pipes' I.e. Small link pipes at base of down pipe that join 1-2 & 3-4 (obviously on a shagged set of pipes) to see if they are actually pipe or just solid bracing lugs that help stop flexing or vibration. Or if it is a piece of pipe/tube is there any holes in the down pipes to allow the bypass of gasses.
An FZS 600 boring along the road doing 10,000 rpm x 4 cylynders = 40,0000 piston strokes per minute, that equals 666 piston strokes per second (I know, it sounds impossible) and that every other upward piston motion is an exhaust stroke, that's one awful lot of exhaust gases howling through the downpipes is there any time or space for perhaps an 8 mm inside diameter or so link pipe to make any difference as the 1-2 & 3-4 will all be competing for exhaust space, especially as all four down tubes exit into a single collector before being forced into one single pipe as it leaves the front pipes and again being restricted by a baffle in the tail pipe.
Please excuse an old man's ramblings but it is something that has crossed my mind. :rolleyes
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Is this a link between 2 and 3 further down the pipes on a stocker?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/jonnyspatter/Bike/23089364-787D-4224-A74C-46EA51151EBE_zpsh95t6jox.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jonnyspatter/media/Bike/23089364-787D-4224-A74C-46EA51151EBE_zpsh95t6jox.png.html)
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No the link pipes are other ones that's just a brace between 2/3 the same that's on your Motad exhaust.
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The main issue here is that you are unsure if it came on gradually or suddenly
Suddenly would point more to Electrics whereas slowly might point more to items wearing.
Since the Motad Stainless is a common replacement it is unlikely the fault lies there
The only way to resolve it is to rule things out with a check list and literally trial and error
Fuel tank breather
Plug Caps
Check the resistance as the internal carbon resistors can break down and put the resistance to meg ohms intermittently.
(I replaced the internal resistors with ones from old NGK Caps)
Coils & leads
Air filter (K&N is a good replacement)
Fuel filter
Fuel flow (Tap and Pump)
Choke operation
Carb Balance
TPS
Plugs
Intake Manifolds
Carburetor Diaphragms (can be removed with carbs in situ)
If all above check out and you have changed the Rectifier/Regulator (but no guarantee it is working properly as the faulty one I had tested OK statically)
Then remove the carbs and check them, including the Pilot screws.
When the carbs are off check the valve clearances
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No the link pipes are other ones that's just a brace between 2/3 the same that's on your Motad exhaust.
There in lies the problem, a number of us seem to understand something different when we talk about the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4.
In the re-hashed picture below is what I understand when people talk about the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4, these are what I am asking about in the post above are they joining /link pipes or just braces that stop vibration and or flexing?
The other part indicated I understand to be the collector.
Someone with more knowledge please comment and help this old geezer understand :'(
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get the carbs cleaned it can cure lots of problems deffo the first thing i would do
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Is this a link between 2 and 3 further down the pipes on a stocker?
([url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/jonnyspatter/Bike/23089364-787D-4224-A74C-46EA51151EBE_zpsh95t6jox.png[/url]) ([url]http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jonnyspatter/media/Bike/23089364-787D-4224-A74C-46EA51151EBE_zpsh95t6jox.png.html[/url])
This answer is for mr self destruct for his picture/query.
No the link pipes are other ones that's just a brace between 2/3 the same that's on your Motad exhaust.
There in lies the problem, a number of us seem to understand something different when we talk about the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4.
In the re-hashed picture below is what I understand when people talk about the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4, these are what I am asking about in the post above are they joining /link pipes or just braces that stop vibration and or flexing?
The other part indicated I understand to be the collector.
Someone with more knowledge please comment and help this old geezer understand :'(
You are correct they are the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4 & are not braces. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif[/url])
You are correct they are the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4 & are not braces.
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tommyardin, that is correct they are the link pipes between 1-2 & 3-4 & are hollow,they are not braces.
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Thanks for the comments guys, all good info. Looks like I'm gonna have to spend some serious time on this so it'll have to wait until the Easter holiday.
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In a recent development, I was fitting a thou rear caliper and new disc/pads and leaned on the exhaust, which moved freely.
I gave it a shake and chunks of graphite seal fell out. Could this be the cause of the problem? I've got a replacement on order so we'll see.
Update: It wasn't.
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As an update to this, I started from scratch again this week as I've only now had time to take the bike off the road.
New plugs at last service.
New caps today.
New coils today.
New air filter at last service.
New fuel filter today.
Pipe from tank to pump checked for kinks, none found.
Carbs balanced today.
Tps checked and reading ok.
Problem still there where I open it up fully and it just bogs down, yet can accelerate ok at 3/4 throttle.
I've exhausted all other possibilities than carbs, so have bought a used set to stick on while getting the originals refurbed.
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Done fucked up today!
Stripped the bike down last Thursday, got the old carbs off and new ones on today, all good until I found I had two screws left over and some sort of electrical relay hanging where it shouldn't.
Between Thursday and today I managed to lose whatever bracket goes there. I can't even remember what it looks like, let alone where it went. Anyone got a spare they're willing to part with?
Picture here:
https://flic.kr/p/XsLz9h (https://flic.kr/p/XsLz9h)
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The bracket's right there a couple of inches away. :lol
(https://s19.postimg.cc/psr0el19f/36402547556_c4c674aa34_k.jpg)
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Oh good!
Apart from me feeling a bit of a dick. :lol
Just got to figure out where the two spare screws came from then. :o
After that it's test run time tomorrow.
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what kind of screws ??
strangely a pic of them next to a tape measure might help
there should be enough of us watching for one of us to recognise them (unless they are just generic screws)
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The bracket's right there a couple of inches away. :lol
(https://s19.postimg.org/psr0el19f/36402547556_c4c674aa34_k.jpg)
The arrow points to the bracket for the flasher relay, the starter cut out relay (hanging down) shoud be where you have the flasher relay in the picture. Change them of the side cover won't fit on properly
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Done fucked up today!
Stripped the bike down last Thursday, got the old carbs off and new ones on today, all good until I found I had two screws left over
Actually you are lucky as a while back someone on here was a screw short - with the possibility of it had been lost down the head, we were all coming up with ideas of how to get it out a bit like the film everybody's baby (stuck down the well )
If I remember rightly the Focer in question was sitting on the missing screw
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I'm happy to be shot down here, as I have almost zero knowledge of carbs on the bike, but I do know more about the ones that sit on top of a 6.6 litre V8. I figure there might be some commonality between the way they work.
I'm not sure I'll explain it very well, but here goes:
On the bigger ones that I have worked with, there are 2 ways the fuel feeds into the intake - vacuum and pumped. When the engine is running it creates a vaccum in the intake, which sucks fuel in from the carb. The more open the throttle the bigger the vacuum and the more fuel is sucked through, which in turns makes the engine run faster. When you sudddenly open the throttle there is a lag, where the amount of fuel being sucked in relates to the original position of the throttle, so you don't get a sudden burst of acceleration, but you are waiting for the vacuum to build and suck more fuel. This is where the pump action comes in, and it is linked to the throttle. When you open the throttle it squirts a bit more fuel into the intake, to cope with the lag - a bit of a boost to help things along. On the carbs I've worked on, there's a lot of tuning you can do to this pump circuit, such as speed, volume and jet sizes, which all affect the lag timing and effect of the pump.
I'm wondering it the FZS carbs have a similar function, and you're not getting the pump action. This could explain why you only see it on rapid throttle opening, but not when you open it gradually, as the lag effect will be slower/less obvious with slower throttle opening.
If it is this that's the problem, the replacement carbs may prove to solve your issue - but that doesn't mean this was the problem. The only way to know for sure would be to fix the old ones and see if it works.
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When I'm travelling at high (i.e. unrestricted autobahn) speeds, my 600 develops a real reluctance to accelerate.
I'll be doing over 7k rpm and when I open it up it just dies for about a second before picking up again, like I've actually switched the ignition off, which makes overtaking dangerous.
I've had the tank up and checked the fuel lines are in good condition, not kinked or blocked. I've changed the plugs and had it serviced but it makes no difference. The battery is in good condition, TPS is fine (jumping to 5k when tested) so I reckon the next stage is to check the carbs.
I've not checked the rubbers or stripped the carbs down because in my experience with car carbs, any leaking inlet rubbers or sticking needles affect the tickover/low revs more than high revs. Is that wrong though?
The next thing I was going to do is balance the carbs, but before I start I just wanted to know if there's anything obvious I've missed.
What do you think?
It could be carburetor nozzles.
I've had the same symptoms after installing some aftermarket (wider) nozzles because I though I was gonna get some additional power (we did rejetting), instead I lost power and it would halt briefly at around 9k rpm, as if you've cut fuel supply briefly (for a second or so).
Returned stock nozzles and everything ok again.
If you already have stock nozzles, then maybe it's worth checking them out, maybe they need cleaning or something...
Good luck.
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:agree
My sons FZS600 is in bits at the moment because of carb problems. The main jets are clogged as fec with crap. Yours could be similar.
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I found where the screws came from this morning, it was the air box.
There's an important lesson to be learned here; don't work on bikes when you have a depressed wife and manic toddler distracting you!
Got them back in place and got the bike outside to fire up with the replacement carbs, only to find them pissing fuel over the engine!
Seems they need a recon too. :\ Granted, they were only temporary while my originals were away, but it's tipped me over the edge. I can't be fucked with the hassle any more.
Anyway, carbs have to come off again and I have to start from scratch, so if anyone wants a "project" bike with 69500 miles on the clock, not until the end of October and a comprehensive service history since 2013 for £600, give me a shout before my mood improves and I change my mind.
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Hey mate, try not to get too down about it, don't do anything impulsive.leave it a while and see how you feel then.We've all been there, so we know how foccin' frustrating bikes can be. Just don't sell it until you're sure you want to, you may end up regretting it.
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Hey mate, try not to get too down about it, don't do anything impulsive.leave it a while and see how you feel then.We've all been there, so we know how foccin' frustrating bikes can be. Just don't sell it until you're sure you want to, you may end up regretting it.
TBH mate I've never been into bikes, I've been into riding if you know what I mean. I don't care what I ride as long as I can ride. The maintenance and mechanical side of it is just shit I've got to do to enable me to do that. So if that becomes too much I'll write it off and get something that needs less work. Or preferably no work.
I was hoping this bike will last me until my Mrs gets out of this rut she's in and gets back to work. Then I'll be straight down my local dealer and get something brand new.
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I've found the problem with the replacement carbs, they're passing fuel out of these small holes on the inlet side (see attached pic) when the fuel pump is running.
https://flic.kr/p/WX7kaQ
What could be causing that? And is it a simple fix?
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That's fair enough, I know what you mean. What sort of thing are you looking to replace it with?
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That's the million dollar question! :lol
I've yet to see a new bike that ticks all the boxes that my Fazer does.
MT09, Z900, Street Triple, GSXS750, all perfect except for the lack of a fairing.
Tracer 900, butt ugly and not comfortable.
Tracer 700, v-strom, versys etc, not enough bhp.
Sports bikes, too cramped for my knackered knee.
Cruisers, I love cruisers but hate cruising. I like to take corners!
Damn shame Suzuki dropped the 1250 Bandit so soon.
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Also, how do you embed pictures from Flickr? What worked with Photobucket doesn't with Flickr.
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float valves stuck open.
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yeah if your only pissing out fuel when pump running the float valves are open
your pump should stop after a few seconds if you havent run in a few days but i bet yours is running non stop
off come the carbs again bud
(im only running pods so im laughing tomorrow if i have to take mine off for float adjustment)
i cant get a fuel filter till next week so might reverse my fuel filter and run it for a bit to back flush my filter
(through a coffee filter into a jerrycan before anyone panics lol - i always use a coffee filter when draining tanks)
ooh there is a point - does the fazer have a in tank pre filter ? off to search i go
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Disorderlypunk, I would say yes.
https://www.ajsutton.co.uk/product/yamaha/4KM245002000/fuel-cock-assembly-1?uid=0 (https://www.ajsutton.co.uk/product/yamaha/4KM245002000/fuel-cock-assembly-1?uid=0)
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thanks for that - distracted and didnt search - so there is another thing to have a look at MR Destruct lol
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Good point! Carbs are off so I'll look at the float valves tomorrow.
So those small holes, do they lead to the float chamber to allow ventilation to it or something?
If I didn't know better I'd say they were accelerator pump jets, but they're facing the wrong way for that surely?
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ok got confused untill i read previous posts
basicly they let air in while your throttle is closed (pilot)(sorry if im writing this in basic terms but its easier for newbies in the future)
so if your float needle valve is open and letting in fuel your main jets are effectively closed so this is the easiest route for your fuel to flow through
- 90% sure its a jammed float needle problem
could just be a bit of crap made its way through if not its a new needle valve assembly 5-10 quid on ebay but make sure you replace the whole bit and not with (ooh there was a bit of that in a spares box)
hope its making sense i am better at doing than explaining (which is why i fail written exams lol)
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Sorry for stealing your thread, but since we're talking about similar problems here, could I ask what could cause this issue on mine: every time after finishing a ride, if it's passed more than 15min, when I turn to ignition, the pump starts working but shouldn't. You can hear it clicking several times. Then the engine starts (with difficulty) and when it starts you can smell the gasoline.
My mechanic serviced the carburetor recently and changed some rubber seals, for which he suspected could be causing the trouble. For a few days the bike was starting normally and pump wouldn't click after a ride, but now it started clicking again and starts with a difficulty again :(
What could be causing this ?
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ok freza - can you start this in a new thread i have a few possibilities for you.
just go onto http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/board,15.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/board,15.0.html)
and click new topic (dont want things to get too mixed up)
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ok freza - can you start this in a new thread i have a few possibilities for you.
just go onto [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/board,15.0.html[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/board,15.0.html[/url])
and click new topic (dont want things to get too mixed up)
Did. Please delete my post. Thanks!
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Can anyone recommend a company to rebuild my carbs?
A quick internet search revealed JRS but is there anyone else that you guys think highly of?
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Any local bike shop will do it.
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ok got confused untill i read previous posts
basicly they let air in while your throttle is closed (pilot)(sorry if im writing this in basic terms but its easier for newbies in the future)
so if your float needle valve is open and letting in fuel your main jets are effectively closed so this is the easiest route for your fuel to flow through
- 90% sure its a jammed float needle problem
could just be a bit of crap made its way through if not its a new needle valve assembly 5-10 quid on ebay but make sure you replace the whole bit and not with (ooh there was a bit of that in a spares box)
hope its making sense i am better at doing than explaining (which is why i fail written exams lol)
I took the bottom off one of the carbs tonight and I think I see what you mean.
(https://s26.postimg.org/c0gp6m3rt/IMG_5281.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.org/7334li1sp/IMG_5309.jpg)
If the float valve doesn't seal then the fuel will be forced up the left most jet of the theee in the picture, spilling out of the left hole in the first pic. I think. So I'll order four of those valve kits and see what happens.
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Can anyone recommend a company to rebuild my carbs?
A quick internet search revealed JRS but is there anyone else that you guys think highly of?
This is where you really want to take your bike for the best results. Just remember you get what you pay for.
http://projexdyno.co.uk/index.php (http://projexdyno.co.uk/index.php)
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I took the float valves out and looks like the O-rings have seen better days.
(https://s26.postimg.org/t0vyru1sl/IMG_5322.jpg)
So I've ordered a repair kit which seems easy enough to fit. My next question is, does the float height need setting as a matter of course or is it pretty much ok as standard?
(https://s26.postimg.org/i00tmt9jp/IMG_5320.jpg)
In the above pic according to the Haynes manual, the float height needs to be set by bending the tab that the needle sits on. But surely if that's flat it's at the factory setting already?
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as you have the carbs out it is easy enough to hook a piece of pipe and see where things level out
check the manual on the height of fuel though as it changed part way through the manufacturing for some reason
y2k is 3mm above machined surface but i run mine at 4mm as im running the pods it seems the best performance and got rid of the 7k rpm stumble
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Good point, I'll have a crack at it when the repair kits arrive.
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Repair kits are here and look straightforward to fit, apart from one little ring. There are three o-rings, the largest of which I assume fits on the brass insert for the float valve, the middle sized one I think goes on the main jet, but what about the smallest one?
(https://s26.postimg.org/se84mtrx1/IMG_5345.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.org/e92bl0ivp/IMG_5346.jpg)
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The pilot adjuster screw :thumbup
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Nice one cheers!
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Finally managed to get the time to put the carbs back on and fire it up.
Do they work now? Do they fuck!
This is the spare set I bought to tide me over while my originals were sent away for a re-con. Only to find they pissed petrol out all over my engine because the float valves were fucked.
I changed them, and put them back on the bike three weeks later (I still have zero time to myself as explained earlier), and the bike just will not fucking fire up.
On top of this, I didn't bother sending the original carbs away because I had to spend the cash insuring my wife's car, so I'll have to do that now and have another month at least without a bike. :rolleyes
Maybe the TPS needs setting or something, that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Or maybe the diaphragms are bollocksed on these carbs.
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TPS won't stop it from starting and it's unlikely all the diaphragms are bad. I'd check the fuel is on first easy mistake and that the battery is charged then try and start it, if it doesn't go I'd take a plug out see if it's wet or dry and if it's sparking or not. If the plugs are very wet then it's probably flooding and it's either the float valves not sealing or the float heights are wrong. You could do a float height check with a clear bit of hose and if they're out it's carbs out again.
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Today I checked a few things, and the carb float bowls are filling up ok, there's a spark and the plugs are fine. It's spinning over on the starter so the battery's ok. However, with a spark plug out I'm not getting the faintest whiff of petrol, so the fuel isn't getting into the cylinder.
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Are you using new fresh fuel.(http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif)
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Today I checked a few things, and the carb float bowls are filling up ok, there's a spark and the plugs are fine. It's spinning over on the starter so the battery's ok. However, with a spark plug out I'm not getting the faintest whiff of petrol, so the fuel isn't getting into the cylinder.
Giving it full choke doesn't help? Is the idle speed set right? You could spray some easy start into the airbox as you're cranking it and see if it fires. If it does then you're definitely not getting enough fuel either into the carb or through it.
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The choke makes no difference but I'll get some easy start and try that next.
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as pilot screw o-rings were mentioned i thought i best check
-did you screw pilot screws all the way in and then out 2.5 turns
(dont worry you wont be the first person to forget to screw them out again :rolleyes [size=78%])[/size]
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check the idle adjuster isn't screwed way too far in too. unlikely but worth checking. you'll get it eventually. keep the faith
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as pilot screw o-rings were mentioned i thought i best check
-did you screw pilot screws all the way in and then out 2.5 turns
(dont worry you wont be the first person to forget to screw them out again :rolleyes [size=78%])[/size]
After a lot of pissing about I finally know the pilot screws are set correctly. When I did the seals I countered how many turns to screw them in and set them how they were before, which was 1 1/2 to 1 3/4, so I've set them all to 2 1/2 like you say.
It hasn't made any difference and the bike still won't start.
The sale offer is still on guys, take it off my hands for £500 and grab yourself a bargain project. Easy repair if you know what the fuck you're doing.
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You've confirmed spark and that your plug caps are on the correct cylinder right? So we're calling spark good. Compression was good before so it's probably good. Air filter I think you checked so air is good. Fuel seems the only question mark but no matter what you do to the carbs choke on/off, idle mixture screws adjusted, idle speed in or out, it all seems to make ZERO difference to the bike trying to start so to me that points to there not being enough fuel going into the carbs or not enough fuel getting through the carbs. After the work you've done it seems unlikely the carbs are blocked so I think the fuel supply into the carbs could be the issue. Try hooking up another fuel supply like a funnel or a bottle straight to the pipe that feeds the carbs and try and start it. Or try the easy start into the air box. If you're sick of working on it get a mechanic to look at it. It seems to be a frustrating problem but I don't think it's a massive one so you'll only regret selling the bike
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Sent the carbs away to a local specialist three weeks ago, got them back and it's leaking fuel out of one float bowl drain. No biggie, but they're going back to him Monday. Meanwhile, I lost my notes on the wiring when I came to put the coils back on. So quick question, do I have the wiring to the coils correct in this picture? It's still not firing up and the wiring may be the reason.
And just to confirm, the lh coil feeds cylinders 1 and 3 while the rh coil feeds 2 and 4, yes?
(https://s26.postimg.org/x0tv1u4et/IMG_5628.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/x0tv1u4et/)
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Hello,
I've been faffing around with my carbs too - so I have a picture of what the wiring looks like on my 03 FZS600. So from right to left (facing FWD), wires are red and orange to the LH coil and grey and red to the RH coil:
(https://i.imgur.com/LVhDp4w.jpg)
Looks like your LH coil wires are inversed.
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Also, if you have a multimeter you can check the coil resistance while you've got it all apart.
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Cheers!
So in theory cylinders 2 and 4 should still be firing, which means I still have a problem somewhere.
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Yup, update us once you get the carbs back from the rebuild.
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I am pretty sure that the firing order is 1&4 and 2&3.
So one coil feeds 1&4 and the other 2&3!
Edited:
The firing order that i wrote above is wrong,keep only the second sentence!
First coil fires 1&4 second coil fires 2&3