Date: 29-03-24  Time: 06:21 am

Author Topic: Cornering  (Read 8003 times)

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #25 on: 15 June 2019, 01:01:45 pm »
 
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The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek

That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide.  Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
 
Counter steering is instinctive in that the only way a bike can turn at speeds above a crawl is to counter steer.  But of you are steering by leaning, ie counter steering without understanding what is happening then you may not be fully in control of the direction of travel of your motorcycle.


And nor do you need to lean to complete a turn, cos it not leaning that makes the bike turn.


For example, lots of people won’t ride their bikes on moderately windy days , as they get blown all over the place, it scares them silly, and they don’t know what to do about it.  Obviously you keep the bike in a straight line on a windy day by the pressure you apply to the bars – counter steering.


I’m with Frosties. :eek :eek :eek   If you are scratching your head wondering about counter steering, is it instinctive  or not, are you deploying it to change direction quickly etc etc.
Then try the 30-40mph straight line thing.  Just play with it a bit.  Then think and feel it in corners, notice how you can change your line in a corner effortlessly with a pull or push on the bars.


I think it’s only once you have consciously practised it, experimented and understood it, that it can then become truly instinctive.  And a game changer.

 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #26 on: 15 June 2019, 01:09:29 pm »
HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lol
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip.... :D
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
« Last Edit: 15 June 2019, 01:45:01 pm by Steve3351 »

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #27 on: 15 June 2019, 01:43:17 pm »
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yes we all countersteer.
But do you go round a corner by controlled input on the bars, or leaning over hoping the bike will go round the corner.
There's a world of difference.

Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #28 on: 15 June 2019, 01:52:23 pm »
Both...? u have to lean... :\

Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #29 on: 15 June 2019, 02:44:03 pm »
A FOCCER surruptitiously SCUFFING his boots......!!!!! :eek

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #30 on: 15 June 2019, 03:18:23 pm »
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Both...? u have to lean... :\

Leaning is optional.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #31 on: 15 June 2019, 03:32:01 pm »
What hits the ground first depends also on the camber of that part of the road. for me its equally my toes / hero blobs. Or sometimes neither and the rear wheel will let loose a little - just a little skip, but that could of quite easily been as I go over a slippy join in the road.
 The thing with looking at chicken strips - unless they are 1 inch wide is that some manufactures tyre profiles for different bikes you will never completely get rid of chicken strips or the front may be 5 mm and the back 15 - or visa versa.

Find a quiet round about with good visibility so you can see if anything is coming and practice heading for it going round it a few times and turning left off it. I used to have two great ones near me within 1/2 mile of each other and could go from one to the other but one was built next to and became too busy.
A few years ago I read about this counterstearing thing and went to test and it was like "oh that" I was doing it all the time and I didn't know it was a "thing" and had a name.         
« Last Edit: 15 June 2019, 07:00:30 pm by fazersharp »
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

unfazed

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #32 on: 15 June 2019, 03:40:30 pm »
If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its side
 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #33 on: 15 June 2019, 05:48:13 pm »
who was the old school yank racer (schwantz I think) who when asked how he cornered hard said" I just go in faster and faster every time until I see God...then I back off... :)

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #34 on: 15 June 2019, 06:01:58 pm »
Quote
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek

That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide.  Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
 
It was in at BSB race practice and he was rear wheel steering. See the black line, tyre spinning,  Flipping great to watch, awesome control and confidence.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #35 on: 15 June 2019, 06:11:02 pm »
HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lol
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip.... :D
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
Use the gearbox, right gear and throttle on a little  :thumbup

Do you mean fast cornering when you say hard riding.
Never been lost by a sports bike on my 600 yet except on long straights where I wouldn't have the top speed.
I remember a rider behind me on a run a few years ago, asking if I ever use my brakes, I said yes when riding fast to which he replied "What the Focc do you call what we were doing."  :eek
Try riding without using the brakes something, you will have fun  :lol

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #36 on: 15 June 2019, 06:59:58 pm »
If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its side
 

As I said it depends on the camber of the road and the nature of the bend on a hill for example. I said equally but my toes are usually the first to catch then hero blobs.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #37 on: 15 June 2019, 09:43:31 pm »
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

No.

To initiate a left turn, you push on the left handlebar.

The wheel is rotating forwards and its momentum wants to keep it going in the same direction, but when you push on the handlebar, the gyroscopic effect causes it to "twist" to the left, this is transmitted through the forks to the rest of the bike, making it lean over.

Because the tyres have a round profile, the side on the inside of the turn is shorter than that on the outside of the turn, this causes the bike to turn to the left (if you put a plastic vending machine cup on its side and give it a push, it will roll in an arc for the same reason) *

So once the bike is leant over, it will tend to travel in a curve and it will keep travelling in the same curve provided nothing else changes.

If you push more to the left, the bike will lean in further. If you increase the power, the bike will straighten up and you'd need to countersteer and lean more to keep the bike turning on the same arc.

If you apply the front brake, the bike will want to sit up because its momentum is trying to go forward, but there's a force pushing backwards that is "inside" of the centre of gravity pushing it outwards.

If you throttle off or use the rear brake, it will want to turn in more because this time the force is "behind" the centre of gravity, pulling it inwards.

The thing about countersteering, as mentioned before, is that you do it automatically without realising it, but the trick is to be able to do it consciously in an emergency situation, eg if you overcook a bend and grab a handful of front brake, you're going to go straight on, but if you push on the inside handlebar and look where you want to go, the bike will lean further and you'll be more likely to get away with it!


* This is also why "darksiding" (using car tyres on the rear of a bike) is really stupid, because they don't have the rounded profile. Great if you're on straight American roads with no twisty bits, but pointless if you want to steer through bends!

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #38 on: 15 June 2019, 10:53:23 pm »
That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel

VNA - BMW Wank

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #39 on: 16 June 2019, 01:51:22 am »
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so Leaning is NOT optional.
There is only one way to make the motorcycle turn.  That is input via yer handlebars.

Leaning is optional.  I can ride to work and back sitting bolt upright if I want.  It ain't natural and really doesn't help.  But it's a fun trick to play with a pillion :lol

But at the end of the day, by leaning you naturally push on the bar end you lean towards.  There is only one way to make the motorcycle change direction.  That is by input to the handlebars.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #40 on: 17 June 2019, 10:45:31 am »
Something i was tought with 4 wheeled driving is that when cornering you are applying throttle to compensate for the reduction in speed caused by the corner itself.


As you turn the corner there is a natural sap of speed.......same as ships....to slow down they sometimes make a turn.....it uses up energy.....that energy is transferring to your tyres and turning into heat.


So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.


What i find difficult on a bike as opposed to cars is that as i throw myself round a corner i find it difficult to physically hold the throttle at a steady position, especially if theres any bumps mid way round and ive been cought out accudentally throttling on too much by mistake.
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fazersharp

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #41 on: 17 June 2019, 11:54:34 am »

So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.
I thought that was normal - otherwise you are coasting around a corner which case you are more likely to loose grip.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #42 on: 17 June 2019, 04:18:04 pm »

So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.
I thought that was normal - otherwise you are coasting around a corner which case you are more likely to loose grip.


No dude what i mean is whatever throttle you have on entering the corner needs to be increased slightly whilst going round in order to keep the same speed.


If you kept same throttle from entering as during then you'd slow down due to the corner scrubbing off  some of the energy.
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Re: Cornering
« Reply #43 on: 17 June 2019, 05:02:14 pm »
Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #44 on: 17 June 2019, 06:34:59 pm »
 
Quote
Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.
I think you are wrong on both counts.  The tyre must maintain it’s diameter across it’s width.  If you have a varying diameter depending on where on the tread you are you will have one very weird handling bike.  This is why we don’t like worn tyres, particularly say tyres that have worn down in the centre but still have plenty of meat on the sides.  Why?  Because every time you tip into a corner the wheel is forced to slow and you can feel that as the bike twitches into the turn.  Even worse is a rear worn badly in the centre with a front badly worn on the sides.  The front wheel then speeds up as the rear slows on entering a corner which = evil handling.


 
Ps when I say leaning – I mean the rider leaning.  Yes the bike must lean to make a turn but the rider does not necessarily have to.  The bike is forced into a lean by input at the bars.

 

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #45 on: 17 June 2019, 09:05:00 pm »

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #46 on: 17 June 2019, 09:07:54 pm »
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Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.
I think you are wrong on both counts.  The tyre must maintain it’s diameter across it’s width.  If you have a varying diameter depending on where on the tread you are you will have one very weird handling bike.  This is why we don’t like worn tyres, particularly say tyres that have worn down in the centre but still have plenty of meat on the sides.  Why?  Because every time you tip into a corner the wheel is forced to slow and you can feel that as the bike twitches into the turn.  Even worse is a rear worn badly in the centre with a front badly worn on the sides.  The front wheel then speeds up as the rear slows on entering a corner which = evil handling.


 
Ps when I say leaning – I mean the rider leaning.  Yes the bike must lean to make a turn but the rider does not necessarily have to.  The bike is forced into a lean by input at the bars.



So the diameter of the tyre is the same at the crown as at the edge VNA ?  you better get back to the Brexit thread ..

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #47 on: 17 June 2019, 09:09:14 pm »
Maybe you got a sidecar...or a shit tape measure

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #48 on: 19 June 2019, 11:36:39 am »
 :lol

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #49 on: 19 June 2019, 11:54:37 am »

I think actually the diameter would be the same when leaning? (relative to the ground) If you measure it vertically, then when the tyre is leaning left, the top is the right hand side? Wouldn't that be the same distance as top to bottom when the tyre's upright?

I dunno, I've confused myself now...