Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
General => General => Topic started by: Skippernick on 04 September 2017, 09:49:53 pm
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I don't understand why there is a need for downshift blipping either "manually" on our bikes or automatically on varies modern bikes.
Doesn't the engine automatically raise the revs when you downshift anyway to match the bikes speed?
Can someone explain it to me please.
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It makes gear changes smoother.
when you change down, the engine has to spin faster to match the wheel rotation. It's the same principle as heel-toe braking in a car as you go into a bend. Brake with your toes and blip the throttle with your heel as you change down to reduce the effects of engine braking and keep everything smooth.
You can just stamp down through the gears on a bike, but will often find yourself locking the back wheel if you drop into first, you will also stress/bend the selector forks and generally wear the box.
I back the power off on the way up and blip on the way down. Try it. The Yamaha box is notoriously agricultural, you'll be surprised how smooth and effortless the gear pedal becomes if you do this.
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What he ^^ said. I think. It's something I've done for as long as I can remember. I don't know how I came to do it. I was never taught it. Sounds good though :D
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I too am a blipper and do it automaticity mainly when I am braking hard for a turn - that sort of thing, two fingers on the brake leaver just about at the same time but if I am just pootling along than I use the engine braking. Otherwise it make for far more smoother and controlled braking. When I am using the blip it is also an extra useful heads noise up to idiots of my (sudden surprise presence )
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Me too, always have. :)
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Have a go - it may take a little practice but once you get it right it is both satisfying and practical - just like going the other way up the box and clutchles up shifting
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There's nothing more satisfying than down changing 3 gears blipping the throttle for a bend you know well and have took hundreds of times at the same speed then totally f*****g it up and finishing in a water filled ditch. Guilty my lord, oh the shame :o
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Blipping was originally done as an attempt to match the engine revs with the higher gearbox revs of the lower gear before letting the clutch out. This would put less stress on the old drive chain (not the final drive chain, but the primary drive and gearbox) which was a weakness back in the day. Little need nowadays with better engineered components and closer ratio gearboxes (we rode bikes with no more than 4 gears back in the no helmet law days).
Then.....and now......
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I'm sure on the 600, the alternate loading on the sprocket :rollin contributes to the nut coming undone and the sprocket falling off! :eek
The gear box is still all cogs and dogs and the closer you match the speed of these two shafts the smoother it will change.
Cruise along the motorway, and toggle through gears 3-5. put a really light pressure on the gear lever and without using the clutch just change the throttle position and you'll find at certain points the bike will effortlessly just change gear on it's own. Give it a little more throttle to go down through the gears and a little less when changing up... I found this out when my left hand was preoccupied using my satnav, or trying to block the sun off the screen so I could see it. :rolleyes :'(
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It's not just about being able to get the gear located like with the old boxes, it's to do with keeping the bike balanced.
Just downshifting and letting the clutch out puts the stress through your clutch and drive train, potentially locks the rear and if approaching a corner will unbalance the bike.
It's a good technique to practice so that the bike is kept stable. I only don't blip if I'm actively decelerating and so use the braking force of the low revs to help.
It's the same reason race drivers in cars use heel and toe, so that the car is kept balanced through a corner.
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Blipping was originally done as an attempt to match the engine revs with the higher gearbox revs of the lower gear before letting the clutch out. This would put less stress on the old drive chain (not the final drive chain, but the primary drive and gearbox) which was a weakness back in the day. Little need nowadays with better engineered components and closer ratio gearboxes (we rode bikes with no more than 4 gears back in the no helmet law days).
Then.....and now......
All so true, my old Billy Bantam (BSA 175cc single pot stroker) that I passed my bike test on in 1966 only had 3 cogs and about the same power as a Kenwood Chief mixer.
The funny/scary thing about the Bantam was that if the ignition timing was out and close to TDC (Top Dead Centre) if the bike rolled back after stalling on a hill it would bump start in reverse giving 3 reverse gears, I never managed to cover anymore than about 3 foot in reverse before ending up in a heap, like the day on Guildford High Street giving much hilarity to the shoppers and passers by.
But that was in the days when you could drive up and down the High Street and Main Street in Guildford.
Oh! by the way I love the look of the Vinny.
I generally was a BSA man and loved the BSA Super Rocket and Road Rockets with their A10 650 parallel twin pot engines and remote gear boxes with a primary chain.
The pictures below are grab shots from Google Images and not my bike.
I did not take many photos then as you had to carry a foccing great big Kodak Box Brownie camera around in your pocket use up 12 or 15 frames then send them away to some obscure company up in the midlands, then wait 2 or 3 weeks to get back 5 reasonable pictures back, one my have your thumb in one bottom corner, two out of focus with a bright orange flash down one side (What the fuck did cause that?) and a lovely picture of up your own nose.
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it's called mechanical sympathy.
you have a crank spinning at 8k rpm, transmitting power to a shaft probably rotating at 8k too (depending onyour primary gearing), then to another shaft which dependant on gearing could be spinning up to 14k rpm. this then goes through your front sprocket and drive chain.
if you enjoy replacing chain and sprockets and quite possibly the odd gearbox then stamp down the box..........or become a smoother rider
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Going up through the gearbox is another story, no clutch needed just a flick of the wrist.
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I've never found the "aggressive" style of blipping necessary.
Sure, it may sound good if you're "look at me!" sort of biker, but you don't have to bounce it off the limiter to get a smooth downshift, just a gentle lift of the revs as you disengage the clutch is enough.
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I've never found the "aggressive" style of blipping necessary.
Sure, it may sound good if you're "look at me!" sort of biker, but you don't have to bounce it off the limiter to get a smooth downshift, just a gentle lift of the revs as you disengage the clutch is enough.
So you do more of a blurp than a blip
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I've never found the "aggressive" style of blipping necessary.
Sure, it may sound good if you're "look at me!" sort of biker, but you don't have to bounce it off the limiter to get a smooth downshift, just a gentle lift of the revs as you disengage the clutch is enough.
Yeah agree, the difference between gears is usually only 1.5-2k revs, so 'blipping' more than this is stressing the drivetrain the other way (needing to pull the revs down instead of up.
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I've never found the "aggressive" style of blipping necessary.
Sure, it may sound good if you're "look at me!" sort of biker, but you don't have to bounce it off the limiter to get a smooth downshift, just a gentle lift of the revs as you disengage the clutch is enough.
Im with Grahammm. Just match the revs to forward speed as the clutch is released. Never locked the wheel up on the FZ6
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Blipping allows for fast and rapid cog swopping, like dropping 2 or 3 rapidly when hooning into a tight corner, sounds bloody nice as well it you apply the power early in the lower gears and drive the bike round and out of the bend :eek
Just heard a bike out on the A3 about half a mile from me do that very thing into Ham Barn Roundabout, wind must be in the right direction tonight as it sounded both loud and delicious :lol
I'm sat up in my bed on the iPad, window open, Mrs menopausal, her thermostat is shot to bits, hence foccing window wide open :'(
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I don't understand why there is a need for downshift blipping either "manually" on our bikes or automatically on varies modern bikes.
Doesn't the engine automatically raise the revs when you downshift anyway to match the bikes speed?
Can someone explain it to me please.
There is no such thing as engine automatically raising the revs when you downshift which will match the bike speed.
What happens is because of the speed of your bike the back wheel forces engine to spin with higher speed which is raising the revs.
The problem here is you have a lot of braking power coming from the engine to your back wheel. This force unbalances the bike and makes suspension wobbly. Also the braking force may lock your back wheel and you may crash.
Hence clever guys invented the slipper clutch - because clutch sits in the middle between the engine and your back wheel if the clutch slips a little the force is lost and the back wheel is not forced so violently to brake. Means you will not crash and there is no need to blip.
I never blip, but I usually slip my clutch manually. Which has the same effect. By blipping you are basically making the revs of the engine to match the rotation speed of your back wheel - hence no braking force. I prefer to have the braking force coming. Not to mention the sound of the engine forced by the back wheel speed to go higher is very nice. In fact that is the most fun for me when riding. Incoming.
Which is a lot of exhaust screaming noise for bike which basically is stopping, but we must satisfy the expectations of the public that the bikers are crazy people :lol
Summary - in order to avoid the violent braking forces on your back wheel you can:
1. Blip and equalise the engine and back wheel.
2. Use your clutch to slip a little - means you are still having braking force on the back wheel but its controlled.
3. Buy a bike with slipper clutch - there you have automatic slipping.
HTH
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So bothe methods work but which is better for the well being of the engine/clutch.
I don't like the sound of overly slipping a clutch, just going to wear it out quicker arnt you
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Let's all get automatic bikes instead shall we ;)
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Slipper Clutch? :D
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Let's all get automatic bikes instead shall we ;)
Perhaps someone can invent a riderless bike. Then you can just send it out for a ride by itself and not have to bother with all that stuff yourself.
Personally, I like having to judge gears and revs for myself, braking distances and force for myself, how much power to feed in if I don't want the front end off the deck or the rear spinning up on me (and how much if I do want that). I even like the possibility that I could foc it all up.
On the track, if these things help you to beat your competitors, I understand it. But on the road, ol' stick-in-the-mud here likes the traditional methods of riding a bike.
And here we go again :lurk :lol
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I don't understand why there is a need for downshift blipping either "manually" on our bikes or automatically on varies modern bikes.
Doesn't the engine automatically raise the revs when you downshift anyway to match the bikes speed?
Can someone explain it to me please.
There is no such thing as engine automatically raising the revs when you downshift which will match the bike speed.
What happens is because of the speed of your bike the back wheel forces engine to spin with higher speed which is raising the revs.
The problem here is you have a lot of braking power coming from the engine to your back wheel. This force unbalances the bike and makes suspension wobbly. Also the braking force may lock your back wheel and you may crash.
Hence clever guys invented the slipper clutch - because clutch sits in the middle between the engine and your back wheel if the clutch slips a little the force is lost and the back wheel is not forced so violently to brake. Means you will not crash and there is no need to blip.
I never blip, but I usually slip my clutch manually. Which has the same effect. By blipping you are basically making the revs of the engine to match the rotation speed of your back wheel - hence no braking force. I prefer to have the braking force coming. Not to mention the sound of the engine forced by the back wheel speed to go higher is very nice. In fact that is the most fun for me when riding. Incoming.
Which is a lot of exhaust screaming noise for bike which basically is stopping, but we must satisfy the expectations of the public that the bikers are crazy people :lol
Summary - in order to avoid the violent braking forces on your back wheel you can:
1. Blip and equalise the engine and back wheel.
2. Use your clutch to slip a little - means you are still having braking force on the back wheel but its controlled.
3. Buy a bike with slipper clutch - there you have automatic slipping.
HTH
Thanks Val, you explained it so i understand.
I have started doing it recently but obviously didn't understand why the need for it. Although i think i need more practice coz sometimes i fook it up and surge forward when no expecting it. :lol
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic. The first truck I drove was a 50's Morris Commercial which had no synchro so had to be double declutched and all downward shifts required a blip of throttle to avoid missed gears.Obviously only had "struggle steering" back then as well.
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.
I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.
I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".
Well speaking for myself I thought this was an odd thread as blipping the throttle just comes naturally for me and is done without thinking. However in recent years I do come across younger riders that just smash their way down through the box and this would be on something without a slipper clutch. Quite possibly modern engineering negates what I'd call mechanical sympathy, but that's all I know.If someone's asking why or how down shifts are assisted with a blip of throttle I'd have to assume they were quite young or new to biking. :)
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Could not blipping the throttle be the reason so many FZR600 and Thundercat gearboxes had problems with second gear at about 25/30k miles.
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic. The first truck I drove was a 50's Morris Commercial which had no synchro so had to be double declutched and all downward shifts required a blip of throttle to avoid missed gears.Obviously only had "struggle steering" back then as well.
After first reading this post i actually wondered if i did this with out even knowing but after riding the bike i realized i don't, plus don't see the reason to either?
My bike goes up and down the gears as smooth as you like so revving the nuts off it has not really crossed my mind as a necessary option to be honest?
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic. The first truck I drove was a 50's Morris Commercial which had no synchro so had to be double declutched and all downward shifts required a blip of throttle to avoid missed gears.Obviously only had "struggle steering" back then as well.
After first reading this post i actually wondered if i did this with out even knowing but after riding the bike i realized i don't, plus don't see the reason to either?
My bike goes up and down the gears as smooth as you like so revving the nuts off it has not really crossed my mind as a necessary option to be honest?
During a pootle or commute to work i very much doubt that it would ever be needed either :pokefun
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After first reading this post i actually wondered if i did this with out even knowing but after riding the bike i realized i don't, plus don't see the reason to either?
My bike goes up and down the gears as smooth as you like so revving the nuts off it has not really crossed my mind as a necessary option to be honest?
Who said anything about revving the nuts off it? Some people here have a very strange idea of this 'blipping' thing.
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After first reading this post i actually wondered if i did this with out even knowing but after riding the bike i realized i don't, plus don't see the reason to either?
My bike goes up and down the gears as smooth as you like so revving the nuts off it has not really crossed my mind as a necessary option to be honest?
Who said anything about revving the nuts off it? Some people here have a very strange idea of this 'blipping' thing.
Yes its just a "blip" surly the name describes it perfectly
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After first reading this post i actually wondered if i did this with out even knowing but after riding the bike i realized i don't, plus don't see the reason to either?
My bike goes up and down the gears as smooth as you like so revving the nuts off it has not really crossed my mind as a necessary option to be honest?
Who said anything about revving the nuts off it? Some people here have a very strange idea of this 'blipping' thing.
Okay, wrong choice of words, but i know what i meant and i still don't do it.
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So, i just got called into work and as the traffic was a bit lighter i gave the bike a bit of welly, and it turns out that i do actually blip the throttle at higher speeds.
I think i've been riding so long now that i don't really think about what i'm doing anymore, i just ride it. :lol
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Thanks Val, you explained it so i understand.
I have started doing it recently but obviously didn't understand why the need for it. Although i think i need more practice coz sometimes i fook it up and surge forward when no expecting it. :lol
You welcome :)
BTW it happens all the time to everybody. If you do more throttle than needed you surge forward if you do less you feel too much braking.
Some guys (not me) master matching the speed and the revs to the extend that they do almost clutchless downshifts.
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Just let the clutch out a little slower. As long as you're still using the brakes it'll be fine.
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.
I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".
Well speaking for myself I thought this was an odd thread as blipping the throttle just comes naturally for me and is done without thinking. However in recent years I do come across younger riders that just smash their way down through the box and this would be on something without a slipper clutch. Quite possibly modern engineering negates what I'd call mechanical sympathy, but that's all I know.If someone's asking why or how down shifts are assisted with a blip of throttle I'd have to assume they were quite young or new to biking. :)
I have to agree with Robbo, I don't know how you could make progress ( go fast ) without blipping, if you just change down the bike slows and then you at the wrong part of the rev range to exit the corner briskly. I sort of don't really understand this post if I am honest. its like asking how to ride a bike really. don't wanna be rude .
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sounds bloody nice as well
:thumbup
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.
I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".
Well speaking for myself I thought this was an odd thread as blipping the throttle just comes naturally for me and is done without thinking. However in recent years I do come across younger riders that just smash their way down through the box and this would be on something without a slipper clutch. Quite possibly modern engineering negates what I'd call mechanical sympathy, but that's all I know.If someone's asking why or how down shifts are assisted with a blip of throttle I'd have to assume they were quite young or new to biking. :)
I have to agree with Robbo, I don't know how you could make progress ( go fast ) without blipping, if you just change down the bike slows and then you at the wrong part of the rev range to exit the corner briskly. I sort of don't really understand this post if I am honest. its like asking how to ride a bike really. don't wanna be rude .
Show me where blipping is taught in the motorcycle test!
I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.
If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking. However as Val explained that is not what happens. Sorry my lack of technical expertise lead me to ask a question on a forum designed to help everyone!
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If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking.
Yes that's why I do it -- to negate the engine braking - or the amount of braking because I am in control of it by how much I blip I then use the front brake instead of letting the engine braking brake the back wheel as IT wants. But all that depends on my speed before the action and my planned speed after it and the degree of the corner or the speed at which I need to slow down and also the road conditions at the time that all lead me to the blip action-front brake - a little bit of engine braking (controlled by the blip ) and no back brake at least mostly until the end- all done without thinking. :thumbup
I have no idea why they don't teach it
Do they teach counter steering. _Genuine question, I don't know because that is another skill in the same sort of bracket I would say.
Another one - do they teach clutch less up shifting.
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I think it's done without thinking for older bikers who needed to be mechanically sympathetic.
I do it without thinking but WASH your mouth out "OLD".
Well speaking for myself I thought this was an odd thread as blipping the throttle just comes naturally for me and is done without thinking. However in recent years I do come across younger riders that just smash their way down through the box and this would be on something without a slipper clutch. Quite possibly modern engineering negates what I'd call mechanical sympathy, but that's all I know.If someone's asking why or how down shifts are assisted with a blip of throttle I'd have to assume they were quite young or new to biking. :)
I have to agree with Robbo, I don't know how you could make progress ( go fast ) without blipping, if you just change down the bike slows and then you at the wrong part of the rev range to exit the corner briskly. I sort of don't really understand this post if I am honest. its like asking how to ride a bike really. don't wanna be rude .
Show me where blipping is taught in the motorcycle test!
I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.
If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking. However as Val explained that is not what happens. Sorry my lack of technical expertise lead me to ask a question on a forum designed to help everyone!
Your right, sorry, the forum is designed to help. I think sometimes there is an assumed amount of bike knowledge and that is wrong.
Try blipping, makes for smoother gear changes, less jerky if you have a pillion too.
I think also what goes on in the bike test is not really useful in the real world.
cheers.
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If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking.
Yes that's why I do it -- to negate the engine braking - or the amount of braking because I am in control of it by how much I blip I then use the front brake instead of letting the engine braking brake the back wheel as IT wants. But all that depends on my speed before the action and my planned speed after it and the degree of the corner or the speed at which I need to slow down and also the road conditions at the time that all lead me to the blip action-front brake - a little bit of engine braking (controlled by the blip ) and no back brake at least mostly until the end- all done without thinking. :thumbup
I have no idea why they don't teach it
Do they teach counter steering. _Genuine question, I don't know because that is another skill in the same sort of bracket I would say.
Another one - do they teach clutch less up shifting.
No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works. And as for clutchless upshifts..... the way you get taught is that there's a clutch there for a reason.
Like anything you don't start learning until you've passed the test.
Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? The driving instructor who's been teaching people to pass tests for 15+years or the ex racer thats raced for 15+ years?
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If you bothered to read my original post i asked the question why do it, if the engine matches the revs to wheel speed when changing down, wind on the throttle and you negate the engine braking.
Yes that's why I do it -- to negate the engine braking - or the amount of braking because I am in control of it by how much I blip I then use the front brake instead of letting the engine braking brake the back wheel as IT wants. But all that depends on my speed before the action and my planned speed after it and the degree of the corner or the speed at which I need to slow down and also the road conditions at the time that all lead me to the blip action-front brake - a little bit of engine braking (controlled by the blip ) and no back brake at least mostly until the end- all done without thinking. :thumbup
I have no idea why they don't teach it
Do they teach counter steering. _Genuine question, I don't know because that is another skill in the same sort of bracket I would say.
Another one - do they teach clutch less up shifting.
No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works. And as for clutchless upshifts..... the way you get taught is that there's a clutch there for a reason.
Like anything you don't start learning until you've passed the test.
Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? The driving instructor who's been teaching people to pass tests for 15+years or the ex racer thats raced for 15+ years?
Was that racer training specifically for a road emergency stop, not heard that one before.
I feel a group test on an airfield coming on.
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...Another example of confusing instruction that I received was i wether to pull your clutch in while performing an emergency stop. Now on my lessons and for my test I was taught to leave the clutch engaged until the very last minute to make use of the engine braking to slow me down.....makes sense.
Then I went and did some advanced racing training at Caldwell and was taught to pull the clutch in straight away as leaving it was driving the rear wheel thus forcing you further forward....also makes sense. So who do you listen to? ...
I was told on my lessons to leave the clutch engaged until the last minute because... it helps prevent the rear wheel from locking up, which is a fail during the Mod A test.
Who's to say who's right and wrong?! Personally I pull in the clutch during an emergency stop, but use the clutch/engine braking when doing heavy high speed braking.
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No and no. Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer? It's just how a 2 wheeled vehicle works.
You're right about countersteering being the way a 2 wheeled vehicle turns but only above a certain speed, 10-15mph? so we must all do it intuitively from day one, but when you are aware of it and do it consciously and positively you can become more accurate with turn in points and changing your line while your leant over. I'd been riding for years before I knew about it. Back around 1984/ 85ish my then girlfriend (now wife) bought me a book called 'superbiking' for Christmas, written by a bloke called Blackett Ditchburn which was very educational about all sorts of stuff bike (riding) related, Don morley did the photography, loads of early 80's stuff, Kats and CBXs and the like. Anyone else read it?
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Buy a BMW R1200RS SE then you don't have to blip the throttle, just down shift easy peasy pudding and pie.
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out of interest I just been out for a ride (Portsmouth to Basingstoke) and actually thought about how I change gear, I not sure what you mean by throttle blipping as in giving more throttle as you change down, but I did notice that I shut my throttle off momentarily as I changed down!
don't know why I do it but I noticed it was an automatic reaction!
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out of interest I just been out for a ride (Portsmouth to Basingstoke) and actually thought about how I change gear, I not sure what you mean by throttle blipping as in giving more throttle as you change down, but I did notice that I shut my throttle off momentarily as I changed down!
don't know why I do it but I noticed it was an automatic reaction!
It gos - throttle off -clutch in -blip throttle on - change down -let clutch out. And mostly accompanied with two fingers braking on the front, The blip spins up the engine so you dont get such a big engine brake effect on the back wheel and you are more in control of the engine braking by how much you blip and also at the same time braking more with the front than with the back via the engine
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I will come clean and state I got my full A1 license through taking a DAS course. I did however ride scooters in my youth (so wasn't unfamiliar to motorcycles).
At no time did any of the Instructors through the "big bike" lessons, talk about blipping the throttle for smoother (+ mechanical wear reducing) gear changes.
It's down as an advanced technique, primarily Sports bikes (on the race circuit), when decelerating rapidly, from high speeds, is a norm.
In which case, why should it be necessary to "blip shift" under normal, public road riding/commuting circumstances?
If you have physically slowed to the point you feel a gear down (or 2) is necessary, the engine has already slowed sufficiently, and the gear down wont affect the revs to any great extent. Hence a "regular" clutch in / change gear / SMOOTH clutch out, should be sufficient?
..............perhaps I just don't ride fast enough :lol
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I've been reading this post with interest, as to my knowledge I've never blipped on downshifts. I've given it a bit of a go and not got on with it, but I think that's a timing issue more than anything, and may be suiited to specific scenarios. I've found in most cases I'm already braking when shifting down, so trying to brake and blip isn't easy. I suspect it comes more into it's own when you are flowing at faster speeds and having braked are going down the gears ready for the next power blast.
What I did notice is that in some cases I've been holding a fixed throttle position when changing down. This has the effect of a mild blip when you pull the clutch as it releases the load on the engine.
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I will come clean and state I got my full A1 license through taking a DAS course. I did however ride scooters in my youth (so wasn't unfamiliar to motorcycles).
At no time did any of the Instructors through the "big bike" lessons, talk about blipping the throttle for smoother (+ mechanical wear reducing) gear changes.
It's down as an advanced technique, primarily Sports bikes (on the race circuit), when decelerating rapidly, from high speeds, is a norm.
In which case, why should it be necessary to "blip shift" under normal, public road riding/commuting circumstances?
If you have physically slowed to the point you feel a gear down (or 2) is necessary, the engine has already slowed sufficiently, and the gear down wont affect the revs to any great extent. Hence a "regular" clutch in / change gear / SMOOTH clutch out, should be sufficient?
..............perhaps I just don't ride fast enough :lol
A lot of the things you do while riding are personal, some blip some don't.
Blipping most definitely will get you down through the box faster and smoother, it will really help you gain the most out of the braking effect of the engine, the whole process will be more fluid and controlled. As you know being fully in control as you enter a bend is a must, and as you go rapidly down through the box will will be in control and also in the right gear with the right rev band to acceleration back out of the bend, powering on as see the bend start to straighten at its vanishing point.
My opinion only of course.
The only negative thing about blipping the throttle on the change down is that you will use slightly more fuel, a small price to pay for smooth changes, gained braking effect and more control.
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I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.
Sometimes I take it easy, other times I’m blasting along. I’d guess if I’m hard on the brakes then trailing the front brake into a corner whilst popping down a couple of gears at the same time, well if I didn’t, err, ‘blip’ the throttle, I’d possibly end up on my arse. I’ve always done it, it’s how you down change unless you are piddling along and then you don’t even need the clutch for down changes.
Now this gets me wondering. Like most folks here I also have and drive a car. I’ve always driven manual cars, and yeah I do the same in the car, although yeah sometimes I’ll just let that clutch slip a lot cos heel toes is tricky and to be honest I suspect in race and proper supercars the pedals will be placed nice and close to facilitate heel toe. But is it the prevalence of automatics today, these fancy DSG boxes, is that why maybe folks are struggling to fully master manual gearing changing? Just a thought.
Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer?
Well yeah Dudeofrude, there is only one way to make a bike turn, and that is to counter steer. I just cannot believe that people are trained how to ride a bike on the road without being taught how to steer the bloody thing. One of the first things I’ll often ask a new biker “is do you know how to steer?” or “do you understand countersteering” Hey I’ve had the odd youngster that’s told me it’s bull shite, but most have listened, tried it and thanked me for the tip. Knowing how to steer and change direction at will and rapidly is an essential life saving skill.
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I am not a fast rider and use the mantra slow in fast out but it has never bothered me not blipping, however every day is a school day.
Sometimes I take it easy, other times I’m blasting along. I’d guess if I’m hard on the brakes then trailing the front brake into a corner whilst popping down a couple of gears at the same time, well if I didn’t, err, ‘blip’ the throttle, I’d possibly end up on my arse. I’ve always done it, it’s how you down change unless you are piddling along and then you don’t even need the clutch for down changes.
Now this gets me wondering. Like most folks here I also have and drive a car. I’ve always driven manual cars, and yeah I do the same in the car, although yeah sometimes I’ll just let that clutch slip a lot cos heel toes is tricky and to be honest I suspect in race and proper supercars the pedals will be placed nice and close to facilitate heel toe. But is it the prevalence of automatics today, these fancy DSG boxes, is that why maybe folks are struggling to fully master manual gearing changing? Just a thought.
Counter steering as a rule isn't something that needs teaching. If you can ride a bike around a corner then you can counter steer?
Well yeah Dudeofrude, there is only one way to make a bike turn, and that is to counter steer. I just cannot believe that people are trained how to ride a bike on the road without being taught how to steer the bloody thing. One of the first things I’ll often ask a new biker “is do you know how to steer?” or “do you understand countersteering” Hey I’ve had the odd youngster that’s told me it’s bull shite, but most have listened, tried it and thanked me for the tip. Knowing how to steer and change direction at will and rapidly is an essential life saving skill.
With the exception of a Honda Accord I had always had manual gearboxes in car, but, have recently taken possession of a Merc SLK 2.3 Kompressor, now I never realised what a Kompressor actually was, I made the assumption that it was a turbo but in fact it is a crankshaft driven supercharger, hence better performance than the turbo and no lag what-so-ever that coupled with a 5 speed automatic tiptronic box, it makes for a rapid car, with incredibly rapid gear changes both up and down the box. it has a better top speed than my FZS 600 by about 10 mph but the good old Fazer beats it hands down 0-60 mph by almost 3 seconds, SLK 6.7 secs, FZS 600 3.8 seconds, if you can put the rubber down hard enough.
I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH and stunningly quick off the mark. Plus I love the retro look, a bit Star wars-ish but i love it.
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What any of that has to do with blipping the throttle F--k Only Knows
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I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH
Weird how these Fazers get faster and faster as time goes by :lol
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I love my FZS 600, in my opinion it is one of the best all rounder bikes available, 147 ish MPH
Weird how these Fazers get faster and faster as time goes by :lol
Haha yeah especially when Yamaha only quote the top speed as 135mph 🤔
Then again they only quote the fz1 as 150mph, which I happen to know is misquoted 😥😥
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The only thing have actually learned by reading and finding something new to me after many years of riding is clutchless upshifting, up untill a couple of years ago I had never heard of it but tryed it and its great. But on the subject of countersteering I had never actually really heard of it - or have but never bothered looking in to exactly what it was but then when I did look into it and tried it I thought "oh that" I never knew it was a thing that had a name, its just what I do unconsciously maybe since I was 3 years old an riding a tryke.
So that aspect does not need teaching but perhaps a more conscious and physical input on the bars needs teaching and practicing for a more rapid emergency change of direction for new bikers.
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The only thing have actually learned by reading and finding something new to me after many years of riding is clutchless upshifting, up untill a couple of years ago I had never heard of it but tryed it and its great. But on the subject of countersteering I had never actually really heard of it - or have but never bothered looking in to exactly what it was but then when I did look into it and tried it I thought "oh that" I never knew it was a thing that had a name, its just what I do unconsciously maybe since I was 3 years old an riding a tryke.
So that aspect does not need teaching but perhaps a more conscious and physical input on the bars needs teaching and practicing for a more rapid emergency change of direction for new bikers.
Typo on 147 should read 137 true speed on Tom Tom Bike Nav. Speedo shows more.
Apparently riding or driving anything with more than two wheels it is impossible to counter steer, that is why children have problems with the transition between a trycycle and a two wheel bike once stabilisers are removed. Motorcycle and sidecars do not counter steer that is why solo riders find it very difficult to steer a combo. That and the fact that you have to accelerate around the side car on left hinders and brake on the motorcycle and allow the side car to run around the motorcycle on right handlers.
All alien to a solo rider.
Some of the guys on here that do track days have reached speeds in access of 140 on FZS600's.
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! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhZoQ5OVno#)
A FZS 600 not hanging about.
227 KPH at one point =141mph, again that is the speedo reading and not the true speed my guess would be 4 or 5 mph slower.
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! No longer available ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhZoQ5OVno#[/url])
A FZS 600 not hanging about.
227 KPH at one point =141mph, again that is the speedo reading and not the true speed my guess would be 4 or 5 mph slower.
Yeah I would think once some basic mods are done (exhaust, air filter, jets etc) it would be easy to out perform Yamahas basic stats. As I said my fz1 is only supposed to do 150mph according to Yamaha yet it's been at 163mph on the dyno (which I would assume is accurate as a gps) so top speed figures and power figures should be taken with a pinch of salt
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227 KPH at one point =141mph, again that is the speedo reading and not the true speed my guess would be 4 or 5 mph slower.
I have often been surprised at how wildly inaccurate motorcycle speedos can be towards the top end. Over-reading by 10mph and more is not uncommon. But I also think that willy-waving exercises are pointless in this regard. All that counts is if you have fun on your bike imo, which is perhaps why I have never had a bike on the dyno. My Fazer is the best bike I have ever owned, and that's what counts to me.
P.S. Red ones are faster :rollin
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Well i think that finding out your top speed is an OK thing to do, and don't really see it as a willy waving exercise.
I like to know what my bike as well as my car is capable of.
I'm not a tear arse for the best part, but, still like to know what is possible.
Valentino Rossi, Nicky Haden, Kenny Roberts, Bazzer Sheene, Casey Stoner, Carl Crutchlow, Guy Martin, Carl Fogarty, Giacomo Agostini and many other greats before and after them were ever heard so say 'finding out what a bike is capable of is willy waving. :pokefun
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Valentino Rossi, Nicky Haden, Kenny Roberts, Bazzer Sheene, Casey Stoner, Carl Crutchlow, Guy Martin, Carl Fogarty, Giacomo Agostini and many other greats before and after them were ever heard so say 'finding out what a bike is capable of is willy waving. :pokefun
Have you ever noticed there is a very slight, maybe almost imperceptible difference between what they do for a living, and what you do? :lol
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Valentino Rossi, Nicky Haden, Kenny Roberts, Bazzer Sheene, Casey Stoner, Carl Crutchlow, Guy Martin, Carl Fogarty, Giacomo Agostini and many other greats before and after them were ever heard so say 'finding out what a bike is capable of is willy waving. :pokefun
Have you ever noticed there is a very slight, maybe almost imperceptible difference between what they do for a living, and what you do? :lol
Cut and pasted from my previous comment
I'm not a tear arse for the best part, but, still like to know what is possible.
So if your a racer its OK to know what the top speed of a motorcycle is, but, if you don't ride professionally its willy waving.
All those non professional guys who love do track days WILLY WAVERS.
Wanting to know what is possible is what got man to the moon and the bottom of the deepest ocean, it is also finding a cure for cancer and other life threatening diseases, those that do that all want to know what is possible, More willy wavers. :pokefun
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Wanting to know what is possible is what got man to the moon and the bottom of the deepest ocean
What did they bring back from the moon? Rocks. Colour me amazed.
They went to the bottom of the deepest ocean once (Marianas Trench). It was too dark to see anything. Great.
:wall :lol
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Did 135mph on mine, with a pillion too, and the bike definitely had more to give, but some selfish car driver changed lanes about a third of a mile ahead, so i shut off the throttle.
Thing is, it ain't much fun to be honest, unless the elements are totally in your favour.
Your head and body get bashed about, and the risk is phenomenal, so i can say that i've been there done that but feel no real urge to do it again.
But it DOES need to be done, even if it's just the one experience.
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Unfortunalty Tommy, man hasn't been to the bottom of the deepest ocean either, not the really deep stuff.
But apart from that all ok. I for one have never maxed out my bike, its not really practical on road but oh that acceleration, now we all love that.
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Unfortunalty Tommy, man hasn't been to the bottom of the deepest ocean either, not the really deep stuff.
But apart from that all ok. I for one have never maxed out my bike, its not really practical on road but oh that acceleration, now we all love that.
That is a big point you just made there, it's not just about what the bike can do, it's also hugely about the roads you ride on.
I was riding down the main road on the way home the other day and just happened to look down to my left and saw a pothole just over 2 feet in diameter and about 6 inches deep. It was on a bus route too so i'm amazed it has managed to get that dangerous without being dealt with yet. :eek
If anyone hits it their vehicle has to get damage in some way, and obviously if a bike hits it it's game over.
I emailed Brent Council, who have taken responsibility for that particular road, as soon as i got home and explained it needs URGENT attention, so they emailed me back 2 days later thanking me for my report and said someone will look into it within 10 days and it should "hopefully" be attended to within 28 days! :rolleyes
So doing high speeds on any roads involves a large amount of luck and blind trust in that you don't find a bad bit of tarmac or concrete that could really spoil your day.
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So doing high speeds on any roads involves a large amount of luck and blind trust in that you don't find a bad bit of tarmac or concrete that could really spoil your day.
Hey Tommy, and have you seen the size of the potholes on the foccin moon?! :eek :crazy
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So dangerous.........riding with an umbrella. :lol
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I get puzzled by these conversations. Up gear is clutchless or with a courtesy flick of the clutch in the low gears to help smooth it out. Downshift, I have absolutely no idea except I don't physically blip the throttle, but then again I always use front and rear brakes all the way to the apex so I usually pick the gear I want long before I tip it in. As for top end, 145 on the clock is easily achievable but totally pointless cos you would only do it on a straight road so a total waste of using 2 wheels. As for speed on corners, only time I look is on the way out, never on the way in?
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Clutch-less up shifts and downshifts should be perfected so that you can ride home when your sodding clutch cable snaps and you don't want to wait 3 hours for a recovery truck where the mechanic knows f-all about bikes and has to call another truck... This is also easily achievable in a car but it requires a different technique.
Blipping on the downshift is something you'll either do or not understand why others do it. You don't have to be riding fast for it to be beneficial. It does make it easier to understand if you use your engine to assist your brakes to slow down. If you purely rely on using your brakes to slow down then you'll never understand the point of blipping. Try dropping a couple of gears on the approach to a junction, you probably already know how much this can help you slow down - maybe it felt a little jerky/jumpy... Give the throttle a blip just before you let the clutch out and it will be a lot smoother. All you are doing is trying to match the engine speed to what it will be when the clutch is let out - this saves the clutch having to suddenly speed up the engine to match the gear change.
Clutch-less up shifting in a car can be done easily. Next time you change gear look at how much the RPM goes down. Lets call it 1,000 rpm. This will be roughly the same for each gear change. So you change gear at 3,000 rpm and it now says 2,000 rpm - it is important to remember this. To change gear without the clutch... Get to 3,000 rpm. Slightly reduce pressure on the throttle while gently easing the gear stick into neutral, now let the revs drop to 2,000 rpm as you gently select the next gear. It takes a bit of practice.
Downshifts are slightly trickier - Remember those RPM values. At 2,000 RPM ease off the throttle and gently ease the gear stick into neutral. Rev the engine to 3,000 rpm (this is a more controlled blip) and gently select the next gear down. That's it. This takes a fair bit of practice to get it into gear without crunching.
I used this technique to get a mates car home very late at night when his clutch cable broke - Just put it in 1st gear and turn the ignition and away you go! Plan junctions and roundabouts in advance so you can avoid stopping and you'll be fine.
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So doing high speeds on any roads involves a large amount of luck and blind trust in that you don't find a bad bit of tarmac or concrete that could really spoil your day.
Hey Tommy, and have you seen the size of the potholes on the foccin moon?! :eek :crazy
Potholes! You call them POTHOLES? I have pimples on my arse bigger than them :eek
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Some in here have said they don't blip the throttle on the down shift or they don't understand it and don't know why you would want to do it and that's OK, it's an individual thing.
Go back to my entry in here (Downshift Blipping) of 15th September and watch the video of the guy blasting along on his FZS 600 as you get towards the middle of the video the guy goes down through his box rapidly (About 1-44 seconds into the video) and uses the blipping technique, watch his speedo as he drops through the box the braking effect from the engine is smooth and the and the reduction in speed is constant, go through the box like that without blipping and each time you let the clutch out after the change down the forks will tend to dive as you lurch forward and the back tyre could lose contact
Hang on! I will post the video in here again
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzhZoQ5OVno#)
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I'm not recommending you ride like that up the Highstreet, well not on a Saturday lunch time anyway. :eek
The guy takes his bike through 13.2K in a lot of gears. :'(
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Did 135mph on mine, with a pillion too, and the bike definitely had more to give, but some selfish car driver changed lanes about a third of a mile ahead, so i shut off the throttle.
Thing is, it ain't much fun to be honest, unless the elements are totally in your favour.
Your head and body get bashed about, and the risk is phenomenal, so i can say that i've been there done that but feel no real urge to do it again.
But it DOES need to be done, even if it's just the one experience.
The pillion rider tends to suffer far more serious injuries, in a motorcycle accident, fact!
At 135mph you eliminated the possibility that your pillion would come out with any injuries at all, as they'd be dead (there's alot that could happen outside of your control, speed wobble, tyre blows out, animal runs into the road, another vehicle changes lane or enters the carriageway, etc)...
Next time you feel the urge "it has to be done... to get the tshirt" perhaps look back, to make sure you arent carrying a pillion first!? :eek :)
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At 135 MPH your both toast.
You know what F4celess you are exactly right, Darssi was a naughty boy doing that with a pillion up back, but FFS who hasn't done stupid things in life?
It is likely that somewhere someone in the known world was killed that same day riding their motorcycle at 40 mph along the street and a truck pulled out on them.
Life is full of risks and I'm sure his mate was on the back screaming give it the beans in his ear, that's what lads do, not saying it's sensible but that's what they do.
I have never done those sort of speeds with a pillion up back, most of my mates used to think I was foccing mad anyway and would not get on the back of my bike. :rolleyes
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Did 135mph on mine, with a pillion too, and the bike definitely had more to give, but some selfish car driver changed lanes about a third of a mile ahead, so i shut off the throttle.
Thing is, it ain't much fun to be honest, unless the elements are totally in your favour.
Your head and body get bashed about, and the risk is phenomenal, so i can say that i've been there done that but feel no real urge to do it again.
But it DOES need to be done, even if it's just the one experience.
The pillion rider tends to suffer far more serious injuries, in a motorcycle accident, fact!
At 135mph you eliminated the possibility that your pillion would come out with any injuries at all, as they'd be dead (there's alot that could happen outside of your control, speed wobble, tyre blows out, animal runs into the road, another vehicle changes lane or enters the carriageway, etc)...
Next time you feel the urge "it has to be done... to get the tshirt" perhaps look back, to make sure you arent carrying a pillion first!? :eek :)
The pillion knew exactly what was about to happen, and me, along with everyone else, risk our lives as soon as you get on a bike and start riding on the road.
Similar to people who find the urge to parachute out of planes, now you wouldn't get me doing that ever, because my mind tells me that it's very dangerous and the risk assessment is much higher 'cos if your parachute(s) fail you're totally fooked, but people still do it, just to get a buzz out of it.
If my bike was bigger then maybe i'd have gone faster, who knows, or worse still, i could've been hit whilst 'speeding' by some poor bloke who's parachute had failed? That would make a good story, albeit an unlucky one for all involved. :lol
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Did 135mph on mine, with a pillion too, and the bike definitely had more to give, but some selfish car driver changed lanes about a third of a mile ahead, so i shut off the throttle.
Thing is, it ain't much fun to be honest, unless the elements are totally in your favour.
Your head and body get bashed about, and the risk is phenomenal, so i can say that i've been there done that but feel no real urge to do it again.
But it DOES need to be done, even if it's just the one experience.
The pillion rider tends to suffer far more serious injuries, in a motorcycle accident, fact!
At 135mph you eliminated the possibility that your pillion would come out with any injuries at all, as they'd be dead (there's alot that could happen outside of your control, speed wobble, tyre blows out, animal runs into the road, another vehicle changes lane or enters the carriageway, etc)...
Next time you feel the urge "it has to be done... to get the tshirt" perhaps look back, to make sure you arent carrying a pillion first!? :eek :)
The pillion knew exactly what was about to happen, and me, along with everyone else, risk our lives as soon as you get on a bike and start riding on the road.
Similar to people who find the urge to parachute out of planes, now you wouldn't get me doing that ever, because my mind tells me that it's very dangerous and the risk assessment is much higher 'cos if your parachute(s) fail you're totally fooked, but people still do it, just to get a buzz out of it.
If my bike was bigger then maybe i'd have gone faster, who knows, or worse still, i could've been hit whilst 'speeding' by some poor bloke who's parachute had failed? That would make a good story, albeit an unlucky one for all involved. :lol
Let's face it we've all done it at some point- speeding that is, although I guess not many will do it 2 up. I must admit in my yoof to giving the odd pillion rider a bit of a scare by caning it at times. Nowadays I think it is in fact a bit selfish to speed at silly levels, the risk to yourself is one thing but the risk to other road users is a bit unfair. I suppose that's why track days are so popular. The fun's being sucked out of the roads,
cars are slowly moving to electric, i'm sure bikes will follow. Google is even working on a driverless car- how much fun is that going to be. Also, there's too many vehicles on the road for such a small country. We also have to contend with these.
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I'm not averse to riding at speed with my misses on the back. She loves it. There are times and places where it's too dangerous so I steady up a bit.
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What worries me more these days are the condition of the roads.
I reported a pothole the other day that i just missed falling into on the bike on my way home, and even after saying it was "URGENT" it was only fixed about 8 days afterwards.
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Looks like this thread's been hijacked by a discussion between the morally indignant "Polite" vest brigade and the rest of us :rolleyes
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Theres nothing like a good bit of downshift "blipping" with a bit of simultaneous 2 finger braking :lol
In a cage its somewhat different using the mantra "Brakes to slow-Gears to go" so since our bike gearboxes are sequential we can employ some fancy finger & wrist action( :b )[size=78%] to enjoy ourselves at the same time demonstrating mechanical sympathy for the engine & drivetrain[/size]
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Well I finally got to ride the MT and discovered ............. I dont blip :eek :eek :eek
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After years of blipping I think it's making me go blind,
though the wife says it's caused by my other activities :b