Author Topic: Restricted??? (Read 19877 times)

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #50 on:** 26 February 2015, 08:58:19 am »

Quote from: Millietant on 25 February 2015, 10:04:36 pm

Silverlegacy, what you're describing sounds pretty much exactly like my son's Fazer 600 when we had it restricted to 33bhp for him.

The restrictors are 4 big steel "washers" which just slot in the carb mouths - so that when the throttle is wound fully open, there's only the hole in the middle letting air through, and it's only about 1/3 of the size of the carb mouth.

This means that no matter how far you wind the throttle open, things happen slowly after 5k / 6k RPM's, especially in the top two gears.

Cruising on the motorway at 70 didn't leave much in reserve for instant overtaking.

If, when you're riding it, the bike performs reasonably well on part throttle, but it just doesn't seem to do anything more when you wind the throttle past halfway, I'd say your bikes restricted - as long as it runs cleanly and doesn't misfire.

Maybe just take off (or pull back) a carb inlet rubber and you'll soon see if there's a washer stuck in the carb mouth - the aperture left open on our sons bike was probably less than about 20mm diameter.

Thanks for the info.
I was going to look and see if i could see down the carb rubbers but all looks a bit complicated to me, i took tank off to check air filter and other little bits but just cant see how to check that with out stripping off lots of stuff, and think its a bit beyond me.
I have found a local place who will dyno it for me for £45, so hopefully going to get that booked in Tuesday next week.
Hopefully I can pinpoint the issue, the bikes fine and below 5-6k and a joy to ride under 50mph, just beyond that its not so fun.

Mark YPVS · « **Reply #51 on:** 26 February 2015, 09:37:24 am »

When i got my Fazer it was restricted with the genuine Yamaha kit ( carb springs, needles and a small plate in each carb), the bike went like a normal Fazer until you hit about 7500 rpm (in any gear ) at which point the power stopped and the bike vibrated really bad ( 110mph in top).
Where abouts are you , some one local who has a Fazer 600 could take it for a spin ??

Mark

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #52 on:** 26 February 2015, 10:26:04 am »

Quote from: Mark YPVS on 26 February 2015, 09:37:24 am

When i got my Fazer it was restricted with the genuine Yamaha kit ( carb springs, needles and a small plate in each carb), the bike went like a normal Fazer until you hit about 7500 rpm (in any gear ) at which point the power stopped and the bike vibrated really bad ( 110mph in top).
Where abouts are you , some one local who has a Fazer 600 could take it for a spin ??

Mark

Sounds pretty much like mine, do Yamaha fit the genuine kits or do these get fitted afterwards? besides stripping it down is there any way of knowing?
I live near Stafford, but dont know many other bikers around here, migth try mu local dealership see if they have any older bikes in to try of similar type? doubt they got any 98 fazers in though.

Mark YPVS · « **Reply #53 on:** 26 February 2015, 10:59:47 am »

I think mine was fitted by Dave Death Motorcycles in the Isle of Wight , it was restricted when i got it, have you checked the paper work / service folder, mine had all the bits in the folder to return to unrestricted, but as said on here a quick Dyno run will soon tell, i think i still have the restricted kit, i will have a look at the weekend , if i find it i will post a pic, you can then take the top of your carb off and check the needle/ spring, if it looks like my ones it may be restricted

Mark

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #54 on:** 26 February 2015, 11:13:57 am »

Thank for that Mark YPVS.
I didnt have much paperwork and stuff when i bought it as it was a dealer part ex, the bike has a few aftermarket bits fitted to it, but no info on whether it was restricted or not, i contacted the dealer, but they dont know and only had it as a trade so didnt really know much about it in the first place.
I can check straight forward stuff just nothing to heavy on the technical side. bit embarrassing really.

noggythenog · « **Reply #55 on:** 26 February 2015, 11:17:42 am »

Obviously up to you now what direction you want to take but it looks like with all the aove that it would at least be worthwhile investigating the restriction.

Appreciate it costs money but if it was me at this stage i would put the bike into a yamaha dealers and just ask them to inspect for and remove any restriction kit.....a yamaha mechanic yas no doubt seen them a million times and will be an easy job for them and if there isnt anyting then it has come from a good source and you can take things from there more accurately.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #56 on:** 26 February 2015, 11:26:25 am »

Hoping to get it into a garage tuesday/wednesday next week to have it dyno'd and checked over, i can only check so much, so would rather have a professional look at it, not over fussed about spending money on it as i want it running right so would rather pay that little bit extra to get it sorted than trying to fudge it myself and cause more damage than good.
Thanks for all the advice anyway and appreciate everyone taking time out to share there knowledge with me.

Ruby Racing · « **Reply #57 on:** 26 February 2015, 11:49:52 am »

I don't know if it's possible, but if it is it's FREE.

Take out your air filter and have a look towards the carb inlets, with a torch shining on the inlets, open the throttle and see if you see anything in the carb inlet.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #58 on:** 26 February 2015, 12:19:21 pm »

Quote from: Ruby Racing on 26 February 2015, 11:49:52 am

I don't know if it's possible, but if it is it's FREE.

Take out your air filter and have a look towards the carb inlets, with a torch shining on the inlets, open the throttle and see if you see anything in the carb inlet.

Interesting, although i too have no idea if its possible this way, I know that i can shine my phone torch inside and take a picture of the air box side of the carb, whether i can see further after opening throttle?
Not sure what internal parts get in the way beyond that?
Not sure if anyone else can comment on this ? if its at all possible?

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #59 on:** 27 February 2015, 10:32:26 am »

I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd

ChristoT · « **Reply #60 on:** 27 February 2015, 04:17:27 pm »

Quote from: Silverlegacy on 27 February 2015, 10:32:26 am

I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd

Sorry, but won't work.

The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.

Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.

My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #61 on:** 27 February 2015, 06:22:28 pm »

Thanks for that ChristoT.

I live in Cannock Staffordshire, so don't kniw if anyone even remotely close to me.
Looks like I might just have to wait til next week to get it dyno'd.
Although I did manage to get an Alan key on the far left carb rubber and pry it back enough to look in and there was no washer, so unless it's a genuine Yamaha one, then it's back to square one.

imax · « **Reply #62 on:** 27 February 2015, 06:28:10 pm »

Thunderpantz is fairly local to you

Ruby Racing · « **Reply #63 on:** 27 February 2015, 07:02:06 pm »

Quote from: ChristoT on 27 February 2015, 04:17:27 pm

Quote from: Silverlegacy on 27 February 2015, 10:32:26 am
I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd

Sorry, but won't work.

The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.

Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.

My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!

Thought the restrictor might be on the air box side. It was just a thought.

Pretty sure it's called the slide, but I like plunger better! LOL

ChristoT · « **Reply #64 on:** 27 February 2015, 10:55:45 pm »

Quote from: Ruby Racing on 27 February 2015, 07:02:06 pm

Quote from: ChristoT on 27 February 2015, 04:17:27 pm
Quote from: Silverlegacy on 27 February 2015, 10:32:26 am
I might have to have a look at this and see if it can be done?
I have tried looking on google for any good pictures of carbs to see if its possible, but not much luck?
Has any one done any work on carbs to know if this would be the case or is there just too much in the way internally? to get a clear view?
Its either that or wait til next week to get it dyno'd

Sorry, but won't work.

The plunger (sure the name is wrong, but sod it) needs a vacuum on the engine side to draw it up, and allow fuel past the needles. All the throttle does is open a butterfly valve that increases the area, hence air/fuel flow into the engine.

Put it this way - if it weren't for the plunger, you could flood the engine by twisting the throttle with the motor off. And you won't get anything like a good enough view through to check washers.

My advice? Find a local foccer with a 600, and ask them to ride your bike. They'll know what a full power 6 should feel like! Plus, free!

Thought the restrictor might be on the air box side. It was just a thought.

Pretty sure it's called the slide, but I like plunger better! LOL

A thought indeed, but no, it restricts total flow. If not, you could in theory flood the engine while riding.

Like I said - on the slide, couldn't be arsed to double check!

You knew what I meant, ergo, mission accomplished!

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #65 on:** 03 March 2015, 01:52:58 pm »

Hi All,

Had the bike Dyno'd today.
I spoke to the guy who said that its not restricted and that everything seems to be running ok, probably pushing around 80+bhp.
He did say that at the rev range i mentioned (6k+ rpm) there was a lean spot, which is why the bike bogged a bit there and said that if i wanted to solve it i should get a dyno kit and have the jets sorted? although this is like £100 for kit play £200 labour to sort it and re dyno run it.
Dont get me wrong, i do love the bike but don't really want to spend that much getting a niggle issue sotrted.
Is there any other solution that might help alittle? they are a dyno dealer so probably just looking for a bit of extra business, where as my old mechanic said there wasnt really anything wrong with the bike and if alls thats wrongs with it is its running a bi t lean mid range then i can always put up with it.
I know people have mentioned air filter changes. but i dont really know what effect that will have ? I dont know much!! lol

Paulfzs · « **Reply #66 on:** 03 March 2015, 01:59:27 pm »

they run lean as standard
k&n filter + new exhaust.
fixed.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #67 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:04:24 pm »

Quote from: Paulfzs on 03 March 2015, 01:59:27 pm

they run lean as standard
k&n filter + new exhaust.
fixed.

What exactly is running lean? is that the air fuel/mixture out?
if so which way? too much fuel? too much air?
I dont know when the last time the carbs were serviced so not sure if there just dirty and jets a bit clogged up??

noggythenog · « **Reply #68 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:07:36 pm »

Messing about with jets on this bike is pointless.

But a small lean spot does t quite describe your initial description which sounded much worse.

Like Paul says a k&n wont do it any harm, equally dont bother but i really think that letting another "insured" foccer have a spin is your best plan now. Sounds like it could be more in your mind like it has consumed you a bit and is just stressing you out.

A carb balance is much better idea imo than just fitting other bits like air filters.

Did the garage geezer take it for a spin or anything, obviously he hasnt said anything alarming.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #69 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:18:29 pm »

Quote from: noggythenog on 03 March 2015, 02:07:36 pm

Sounds like it could be more in your mind like it has consumed you a bit and is just stressing you out.

A carb balance is much better idea imo than just fitting other bits like air filters.

Did the garage geezer take it for a spin or anything, obviously he hasnt said anything alarming.

Your probably right about that.
Maybe my old Fazer was just really good and notice the little things more on this expecting it to be the same.
I did a carb tune on it about 2-3 weeks ago, improved it a bit.
The garage guy didn't say much else, just said about it running lean around mid range, then discussed dyno jetting and the cost.
He said if you don't mind putting up with it, it's ok and that the bike was in ok condition and nothing major wrong with it.
So maybe it's me just over thinking it and my daily commute doesn't really give me chance to open it up much so maybe it's just a bit clogged up?? Someone said give it some stick to help clear out the carbs? Not sure if that works?? Lol
Thanks for all the help though.

Paulfzs · « **Reply #70 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:44:09 pm »

more fuel than air, they did it for emissions or some jazz like that.

get a k&n itll help tons! needs more airflow.

exhaust and k&n will remove that problem.

before i changed to k&n i made some holes in my air filter and took it for a quick blast and it removed 99% of the flatspot k&n cured it.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #71 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:50:47 pm »

No he didn't mention emissions but I'm picking bike up later so will ask a few questions and see what else I can find out.
The air filter looked in ok condition but maybe just a cheap copy of original. So might try bodging it to see before I buy a k&n.
I've still got my carb tuner so might re check carbs after as well.

Paulfzs · « **Reply #72 on:** 03 March 2015, 02:52:56 pm »

they run lean coming out the factory.

dont ride it for miles with holes in the air filter itll suck grit into the carbs just a little blast to see.

get a k&n anyway.

Silverlegacy · « **Reply #73 on:** 03 March 2015, 03:05:29 pm »

I typed in "lean running" into Google and it said " when there is more air than fuel" and running rich is " more fuel than air"
So as my bike is running lean, does that mean I need to cut down on the amount of air?

Paulfzs · « **Reply #74 on:** 03 March 2015, 03:09:03 pm »

Quote from: Silverlegacy on 03 March 2015, 03:05:29 pm

I typed in "lean running" into Google and it said " when there is more air than fuel" and running rich is " more fuel than air"
So as my bike is running lean, does that mean I need to cut down on the amount of air?

sorry confused myself

replace where i wrote lean with rich