Hi-vis law in France and Ireland passed, who's next??

[Pat]

Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/france-be-visible-or-get-done/

[locksmith]

 I dont think its harmful to wear hi vis, except it might give the rider a sense of confidance that other drivers have seen you , and then not ride defensively

 I don't think anyone is actually dumb enough to stop riding defensively because they decided to wear hi-viz 'instead'.
 

What, like the poor bloke in the video?

[bigralphie]

No but you "might" think well he must see me like the copper in the vid

[Phil TK]

No but you "might" think well he must see me like the copper in the vid

 We all think that to some extent though, such as every time we stop to turn right for example, wearing hi vis or not.

[pilgrim]

Right
Ranty time!
Prologue. I ride with my headlights on ALL the time, day, night, spring summer autumn winter, always have , always will, ok?
1. Had three serious impacts with other vehicles in 27 years of riding. None of them my fault, due to other peoples stupidity.
All happened when I was a DR wearing hi-viz with the company logo etc.
2. Nearly got written off by some twat coming round a corner on the wrong side of the road about 20 years ago. Hi-viz would have been pointless
seeing as how it was a blind bend. It was my Dad.
3. Saw a crash 3 weeks ago not 50 yards from my house when one guy turned right across the path of an oncoming vehicle in broad daylight.
Neither car was wearing Hi-viz. Could this be a contributing factor?
4. Ever seen a Ford Capri trying to get on a bus? A big orange and white double decker bus? No? Cant get more Hi-viz than that.
5. Imagine the manufacturers of hi-viz stuff in France rubbing their hands with glee as they double the price of everything!!
6. Last mishap I had involved some silly bint reversing into me in her Toyota Avensis. Poor lass was mortified because;
a. Her husband was a biker.
b. She admitted she didnt even look, because she didnt ' think' anyone was behind her.
7. Russell.
Russell got knocked of his bike a number of years ago on the A6 in Stockport by a woman pulling out of a side street.
Madam would not admit liability even though it was clearly her fault.
Why?
Because he was on a motorbike and she was in a car and motorbikes are supposed to give way to cars.
The judge was not amused and shreded her licence on the spot
8. Was once asked when I was a courier by some silly sod who had just got out of a big flash car at the company I was collecting from
how long it would take me to get to Birmingham from Manchester. When I said it didnt take long on the M6, matey boy said;
Oh, I didnt know motorbikes were allowed on the motorway!
Very observant
Bottom line is, you could be riding around inside the planet Venus, but the morons will still get you, simply because they just dont look!!
Sorry about the big rant, but it gets on my tits that we are to blame for other peoples shit driving,
and I will consider hi-viz clothing, maybe, the moment that all drivers are forced to put their FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON at night
instead driving around with 2 glow worms in dirty jam jars to illuminate their way.
Even when its pissing down.........
Double standards or what?
..............9.........10.

[Slaninar]

Right
Ranty time!
Prologue. I ride with my headlights on ALL the time, day, night, spring summer autumn winter, always have , always will, ok?
1. Had three serious impacts with other vehicles in 27 years of riding. None of them my fault, due to other peoples stupidity.
All happened when I was a DR wearing hi-viz with the company logo etc.
2. Nearly got written off by some twat coming round a corner on the wrong side of the road about 20 years ago. Hi-viz would have been pointless
seeing as how it was a blind bend. It was my Dad.
3. Saw a crash 3 weeks ago not 50 yards from my house when one guy turned right across the path of an oncoming vehicle in broad daylight.
Neither car was wearing Hi-viz. Could this be a contributing factor?
4. Ever seen a Ford Capri trying to get on a bus? A big orange and white double decker bus? No? Cant get more Hi-viz than that.
5. Imagine the manufacturers of hi-viz stuff in France rubbing their hands with glee as they double the price of everything!!
6. Last mishap I had involved some silly bint reversing into me in her Toyota Avensis. Poor lass was mortified because;
a. Her husband was a biker.
b. She admitted she didnt even look, because she didnt ' think' anyone was behind her.
7. Russell.
Russell got knocked of his bike a number of years ago on the A6 in Stockport by a woman pulling out of a side street.
Madam would not admit liability even though it was clearly her fault.
Why?
Because he was on a motorbike and she was in a car and motorbikes are supposed to give way to cars.
The judge was not amused and shreded her licence on the spot
8. Was once asked when I was a courier by some silly sod who had just got out of a big flash car at the company I was collecting from
how long it would take me to get to Birmingham from Manchester. When I said it didnt take long on the M6, matey boy said;
Oh, I didnt know motorbikes were allowed on the motorway!
Very observant
Bottom line is, you could be riding around inside the planet Venus, but the morons will still get you, simply because they just dont look!!
Sorry about the big rant, but it gets on my tits that we are to blame for other peoples shit driving,
and I will consider hi-viz clothing, maybe, the moment that all drivers are forced to put their FUCKING HEADLIGHTS ON at night
instead driving around with 2 glow worms in dirty jam jars to illuminate their way.
Even when its pissing down.........
Double standards or what?
..............9.........10.

Your experience is very small to be statistically accurate. If you flip a coin ten times and get 7 tails, it doesn't mean that the head side is heavier, just means you haven't flipped it enough times. Do you really believe that hi-vis jacket is not more visible? Come on?

I know that when riding in the night and mist, I see Hi-vis jackets a lot (A LOT) sooner than my lights actually illuminate the wearer. If I see a cyclists blinking read light at 200 meters, my dip lights illuminate him at 150 meters and hi-vis jacket is lit the first at some 300 - 400 meters no problem. Also in day light, I see a cyclist with hi-vis jacket - it somehow sticks out from the rest of the vehicles.

There is no doubt hi-vis is safer. It is just a matter of whether it should be obligatory. Because once you go that line, that state is too concerned about safety, that would mean:
- no motorcycle riding at all
- no playing football because you could get injured and miss work, just yoga and jogging
- no loud music because it damages ears
- no smoking in pubs... or is that already enforced in the EU?

etc. Making idiots out of people!

See, even the spell checker doesn't recognize "hi-viz"! 

[locksmith]

Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/france-be-visible-or-get-done/

125cm 2  of reflective material. So is it like the armband in the picture?
Whats the point of that?

[Chillum]

I haven't been able to find the actual definition of how it should be displayed either. All I can find is a reference to 'between the waist and neck' or something.

I'm thinking cummerbund here, or perhaps a hi-viz t-shirt and riding with your leathers open during the protest.

[Ghoti]

Problem with claiming hi-viz is safer is that you will never know how many car drives have NOT pulled out in front of you because they have seen your hi-viz!  If you are wearing hi-viz and 1 car pulls out on you, who is to say that 3 cars would not have pulled out on you if you had not been wearing it.

There is research (cannot find it now, but it was by a Uni in the States, Brown Uni I believe) that shows that there is a correlation to 'perceived' protection and faster driving.  Put a bloke in a Mankini on a bike and he'll only ride fast enough to get away from his laughing mates.  Dress same bloke in leathers, helmet, put foam on the outside of corners etc etc and he will ride faster. [the actual study was based on cars, but the pirnciple is the same].  Guess this could be taken to a rider in hi-viz will think he will be seen so will not react to the possibility of a car pulling out as readily (?).

I wear a hi-viz jacket in the winter for reasons that include the fact that the hi-viz can be cleaned/replaced a lot easier than an expensive set of textiles when it gets dirty.  I don't wear it all year round and would object to being forced to wear one.

Finally, all that I have typed above (and most of the other replies for/against) do not seem to take into account that the French law is for REFELCTIVE clothing - not hi-viz.  IMHO, reflective clothing does less than nothing during the day and lights (which most of us use at night) are better when it is dark.  As refelective clothing only reflects lights, if a car pulling out from a side road there may be no light source for the reflective bit to reflect, so will not work.

[b3tarev3]

Fekkin suicide bid I'd have thought.

Has the hiviz actually become law in France yet?
Had a quick look around and haven't found confirmation of it.

Starts 1st Jan 2013 - http://ukfrancebikers.com/2012/01/10/france-be-visible-or-get-done/

125cm 2  of reflective material. So is it like the armband in the picture?
Whats the point of that?

125cm in Europe...... you can guarantee that our European pupptet masters will insist on UK motorcyclists being fully dipped in day-glo paint!

[pitternator]

In a nutshell, if we really did know that by wearing hi viz, we definitely will be safer ...maybe we all would wear it. But as this is not the case...hence why we argue against it.
 
I still think if penalties were much higher for causing death or injury by careless driving was far higher, maybe the dopey twats would start paying attention and look properly.Its incredulous that given how crowded our roads are, how easy it is to do such things and still be back driving  with little penalty.
 
Being the driver of  a large white( highly visible) van, its still amazing how many car drivers pull out on me ...and on a regular ( statistically relevant) basis.Talking of which for the forum  statisticians out there...its not really  about percentages. It only takes  a fraction of  a percent to kill a biker !... and  , given the known inaccuracy of statistical predictions..they are really horseshit  !
 
If indeed all this is really inevitable, maybe time to start designing  hi viz biker gear which does have mass appeal- theres a new business venture for someone...

[locksmith]

You could also look at it, that on the other hand it's one more line of defence for us that may just stop us being killed. (although you would never know if it ever happened that a driver just saw the hi'viz and nothing else).

[Sunny Intervals]

 me Here's my tuppence worth

If My old works van can get hit when it is bright yellow with chevrons on the tail board, hazard lights flashing, and yellow beacons flashin on the roof, 1/2 mile of warning signs warning people I'm there and the cones laid out on the road behind me to create the required safety zone.
I fail to see what good a hi viz jacket does.

They are some common places now that they have become a sort of background noise of colour.

Has for people feeling safe when wearing one and not riding so defensively I can see how this would happen.
It would become the same as the full body armour warriors who belive they are invincable.

It.s the old risk compensation arguement.

Bet nobody on here would do bends as fast in shorts and T-Shirt as they do in full leathers

[camlyd]

Does anyone know if being a Biker was or is llikely to be recognised as a religion, I remember there is some right if a certain number of people declared this in the last census. If so, perhaps we could all claim in the name of religious persecution and get loads of cash for being upset by the very thought of the state inflicting their anti biking views on us. 

[Slaninar]

Does anyone know if being a Biker was or is llikely to be recognised as a religion, I remember there is some right if a certain number of people declared this in the last census. If so, perhaps we could all claim in the name of religious persecution and get loads of cash for being upset by the very thought of the state inflicting their anti biking views on us. 

Yes, officer. Speed limit does conflict with my religious beliefs. Yes. Peace be with you officer. 

[goldfazer]

I don't have a problem with hi-vis. I usually wear on the Fazer, and wear bright colours on the pushbike. (Makes me laugh when peeps ask me why I don't wear a push-bike helmet when they're wearing black/grey in the winter!). It's all about taking responsibility for you own safety, and if it moves the odds a few points in my favour, job done! Just cos I ride a m/bike doesn't make some kind of rebel against humanity, it's cos it avoids jams and is fun

[pitternator]

well some might say it indeed does make you a rebel !...( bloody cyclists !  )
 
my stance is if it works, am happy to comply if its what I want to do...but really we have to see the reverse side of the coin here which could follow on .... How long before we as bikers get reduced payouts from no fault accidents , or even are made to share blame if we dont wear hi viz...that is really my concern at such legislation.
I do agree though ... a black bike, black leathers , in winter ...yep it is a recipe for not being seen. But on a bright sunny day  at other times of the year ?
Hence why it should be voluntary. And why after 37 yrs riding, luckily surviving so long  ! ...  I am a defensive rider. That to me is more important than just sticking on a hi viz.

[Grahamm]

Yesteday I was riding up the A29, broad daylight, hi-viz on, headlamp on and, within the space of five minutes had *two* idiots nearly pull out on me from the left because neither made proper observation. 

Fortunately *I* was watching *them*, so nothing nasty happened, but it just goes to show that all the visibility aids in the world won't help against stupid drivers.

[Gingernutz]

I live in granny land where half the drivers around me are 70+ years of age. I wear hiviz religiously because I like to give them every chance of seeing me. I dispair at this time of year of cyclists with no lights and dark clothes especially on unlit country roads (I've had to swerve to avoid two in the last six weeks). I know a few people have said they don't reckon it helps and they or their mates have been hit wearing hi-viz - the problem is that its kind of hard to prove you haven't been hit because you were wearing it.
......... But I would join a march protesting against any law forcing me to wear it. This is a matter of free choice.

[shady]

Yes l agree with freedom of choice though personally it doesn't bother me  l wear a hi viz all the time, whilst commuting (which l do daily) or riding fast country lanes anything that helps me be seen better is worth the effort 

[Grahamm]

I've just remembered something which has been kicking around the back of my mind since this discussion started.

In WWII the Americans had a project called "Yehudi" which involved putting lights on the front of aircraft to camouflage them. Now this may sound ridiculous, but what it meant is that rather that having a dark aeroplane which would show up against a lighter sky, by brightening the silhouette of the aeroplane, it could be made to "disappear" by removing the contrast between the plane and the sky.

As such, this gives a reason why Hi-Viz isn't suitable for all conditions, eg a bright sunny day where the light colour of the Hi-Viz would actually "fade" into the background instead of standing out, making the biker less visible.

[Slaninar]

I've just remembered something which has been kicking around the back of my mind since this discussion started.

In WWII the Americans had a project called "Yehudi" which involved putting lights on the front of aircraft to camouflage them. Now this may sound ridiculous, but what it meant is that rather that having a dark aeroplane which would show up against a lighter sky, by brightening the silhouette of the aeroplane, it could be made to "disappear" by removing the contrast between the plane and the sky.

As such, this gives a reason why Hi-Viz isn't suitable for all conditions, eg a bright sunny day where the light colour of the Hi-Viz would actually "fade" into the background instead of standing out, making the biker less visible.

Even in bright day light, Hi-Vis jackets catch my attention quickly.

[Phil TK]

Even in bright day light, Hi-Vis jackets catch my attention quickly.

Flouro jackets/material actually reflects back more light energy than the ambient light level hitting them so in practise they are in fact brighter

[bigralphie]

Reflective stuff is fine most biker clothing and boots have it anyway, but I’m too much of a power ranger for hi-viz all the time .
And as said hi viz is a background palette now ,my instructors jacket is covered in hi viz panels and checker boards but I didn’t feel it stopped other drivers cutting me up or pulling out

[Sunny Intervals]

Yes l agree with freedom of choice though personally it doesn't bother me  l wear a hi viz all the time, whilst commuting (which l do daily) or riding fast country lanes anything that helps me be seen better is worth the effort 






Take the same photograph with correctly adjusted car headlights, no camera flash, and the person in Hi Viz standing at the 3 breaking distances in the highway code.