Saving an old garage - fixing the foundations (water ingress) - advice please!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 Project restore old damp garage.
I moved house just over 18mnths ago, and I now have my first home with a garage.  Yeah!
However there's some issues, or rather an issue, dampness and water ingress.
The garage is fairly old and possibly as old as the house (built 1932).
It appears to be built on top of a concrete base, is single brick (big soft old boys) and has a slate roof.
It's been built into the lie of the land (moderately steep slope) and unfortunately has been filled in.
So I have a damp issue, and when it rains heavy I get pools of water here and there inside the garage.
I've had a roofer check the roof, and a builder look at the general structure.  Both are generally sound.  The garage is in character with the house and a good size, so I wanna save it.
After thinking about it for a long time, I've decided to start digging it out - must be the first part of the solution - eh?
Meanwhile I'm scratching my head, talking to folks and reading stuff on the internet.
So any builders, architects, structural experts etc on the forum?
I'm currently thinking of one of two solutions.
1.  Dig a drainage channel down just below the bottom of the concrete base round the garage, install drainage pipework, connect up to drains at the front of the garage.  Tank the garage walls and back fill with suitable gravel.  Maybe slab on top.  Job done.
 
2.   Or, create an air gap ie by digging out right round the garage.  Dig down to bottom of concrete base and fill the bottom of my trench with concrete.  Brick up my trench right round.
My worries;
1.  If solution 1 develops a problem, I'll have to dig it out.  I never want to dig this out again - not even if it's just gravel - never ever again!
2.  Am I creating a safety hazard?  A bricked up trench 1 to 1 and a 1/2 feet.  But surely if I bring the brick wall 2 or 3 feet above the ground level I've nothing to worry about.  I know I'll have to clean it out now and again.
Anyway any advice from those that ken will be very much appreciated.
See if I can get some photos up so you can see what I'm on about.

[caretaker]

option 2. just make sure your wall is thick enough to take the pressure of wet soil

[steeeve66]

Do you have any pictures we could look at? S

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Not started digging on the left side yet, I can just get a small wheel barrow up there, creating a permanent air gap here will be difficult.





Not started this side either yet.  Whoever landscaped the garden has sheeted the garage, but it's useless, does not work.  Will be interesting to see if I find drainage, but I doubt it.




This is where I am just now.  That's the rear of the garage, I'm down to the concrete base, 3ft down.  The top was chipped, underneath sort of tarmac 1.5 foot out.  Going down - 1.5 foot down of very wet soil, then 1.5 of ash waste, not so wet and much easier to gig, and now back to soil down by the base.   There's a matching 3 foot tide mark inside the garage and water gets in.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Oh yeah most of my fencing got damaged or came down in the storms last winter. 
So I figure this needs done before I think of new fences.

[GrahamB]

My garage is set in to 5ft of soil at the rear & right hand side. I lagged it with 2 layers of the thickest damp proof membrane I could find before back filling with rubble then soil. It works fine. I drilled 2 holes at the base of  the back wall for 4" waste pipe to go under the concrete floor. Didn't think they were working until last week when we had a particularly heavy spell!  I built the soil retaining walls a foot thick to cover my ass.
 I would go with your option 1 myself if you are happy the wall is strong enough? Drape the lagging over the footing in to the soil & fill with gravel or whatever you decide to use.

[purplebear7]

     Hi Ya,
 
I'm not a builder of any sorts .. but I have had a lot of experience with Water and the problems it can bring.
 
First .. Well Done Indeed for having a good go at sorting this urgent problem  .. you've worked hard there.
 
Your photos are a big help .. you are right with your ideas as to where the water is coming from.
You will NEVER STOP the flow .. it knows where it's going .. and it always gets there!!
 
The trick is (in my opinion) to HELP it to FLOW .. not try to STOP it. The high ground (The next line of houses in the photos) is a very big catchment area .. all 'their' water is (quite naturally) heading your way!
 
Your 'raised' lawn alongside your garage is the current Holding Tank.  All the water (more or less) stops flowing there and has time to soak into everything (including the HOUSE Foundations, not just the garage!)
 
The low wall in front of that lawn has no (low level) drainage 'holes' in it that I can see .. so the water can't get away by flowing out from the area.   So .. the first step might be to help the water flow away easier and faster .. into the main Water Table areas lower down around your place .. there will be an 'easy' natural course for it to follow .. once you let it flow free. 
 
Knock or Drill a line of drain holes (I'd say 4 feet apart in this case) along the base of that low wall.  The holes
will need to be a good 2" (larger might be better) bore to work well. 
 
Next .. push a 3 foot long length of steel rod up into each hole in turn, give it a good 'wiggle' and remove it .. this will create an easier route for water to flow out from the soggy ground behind the wall .. water it likes Easy ! 
 
Next .. lay Land Drain pipes .. Note! .. These short lengths of pipe must NOT be 'all joined up' and looking tidy!  Just cut short (say 14" max) lengths of 'old plastic drain pipe' and just drop them in to more or less line up, with 1/2" GAPS between each section, in the trench (s)  The water WILL then find (within hours) all these gaps and the flow will start form the whole lawn and All the slightly Higher Ground areas (not just from a small back bit where a single long pipe with only one small end 'entrance' would start.   Don't worry about a bit of soil and gravel getting into the pipes .. the water will not mind (think mountain stream)
 
If in doubt .. you might look up or go to see and check how the Farmers drain their land .. also how most good land 'Retaining' Walls have a line of drain holes along their lower level 
 
Finally .. once you have a good 'free flow' going on .. you must keep it going .. follow the flow and make sure it continues .. out beyond your patch .. out and away down the slope of the land. Failure to do that will just mean you move the soggy damp problem closer to (and under) the house !!
 
I had more or less the same problem many years at a house I lived in for about 35 years .. this 'help it flow' idea worked for me then .. and the water is still flowing .. even more so this 'summer' I'm told.
 
All that is .. just in my opinion .. of course.
 
Simples     See ya in about a year then .. Start today!
 
Stay Safe Trev The Polar Bear  (45 years Pro DIVER    )
 

[steeeve66]

The garage looks sound to me, and I'm pretty sure you're doing the right thing digging out the earth to the sides of the walls. Almost certainly what was happening was that water, under pressure from the soil above the d.p.c (damp proof course [assuming there is one?]) was finding its way through the wall and in to the garage. By creating a space down the side of the wall to below the line of the d.p.c. you'll have stopped that. You will need to dig out round the back and left side also I'd have thought.
Don't let anyone try and fob you off with a 'rising damp' explanation - as my structural engineer tutor at Uni told us, quite forcefully, it doesn't exist!
As for drainage from the roof you should be ok just running a pipe down the side and allow it to run away (on the left perhaps?) or, better still, in to a tank so you can water the garden with it?
It might be worth getting someone to check it's structurally sound btw.
S

[goldfazer]

HAving alsways lived in old houses (current one is about 1831) I'd go with the digging it out - looks like some pointing is also reqd as a minimum. Looks like you'll need summat to stop the garden sliding down, so either a brick wall or as suggested tank/membrane and fill with hardcore and top with chippings/poncy chippings!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Thanks for all the input.

Trying to figure this out.

I think I'm going with option 1 - French drain style.  Yesterday I was for two, today I'm thinking 1 
What I'm thinking now - as I dig.


I'm going to tank the wall.  More expensive but easier than re-pointing.  No there's no DPM whatsoever, and though I've no way of telling for sure, it's unlikely there's a DPM through the concrete base either - if there is it's breaking down. 

So if I dig down right to the bottom of the base for the porus pipe (laid on top of a few inches of chip), which is just there to connect with the proper drains at the front of the garage, any build up of water pressure should go to the drain and not draw through the base.  At the moment it does draw but only after very heavy rain. 

Then line the back of my trench with heavy barrier cloth (will let water through but stop soil getting down to my drain).  Fill trench with cheapest available chips (I'm told these are available by the tonne fairly inexpensively)    Maybe some more cloth on top, some soil and slab it with a few inches gap to the garage. 

I'll get a builder in to do the tanking, fit the drain, do the slabbing etc.  I'm just getting the cost down a good bit by doing initial donkey work.  So I'll check all this with the builder and get a quote.

The low wall in front of that lawn has no (low level) drainage 'holes' in it that I can see .. so the water can't get away by flowing out from the area.

Purplebear7 - There is a line of small drain holes lower down on that wall.  But I've never seen any water coming out.    Plus a drain has been installed for the guttering of the wee conservatory.  Now if it's been done right there should be a French drain or similar running from the lawn to the conservatory drain  (maybe, maybe not!).    Now I know from digging my trench the  soil is holding a lot of water, but in the 18mnths I've been here, so far there's been no serious water logging.  And it rains a lot here in Ayrshire! 

But anyway a longer term plan is to knock that silly wee conservatory down and build a decent sized one or maybe sun house.  So you can be sure, now I think I know about drains, there'll be a proper set up when that bit of land is re-landscaped to take the new sun house (if I find the cash) and even if I have to dig it myself.

Once again thanks for the input.  And if I'm missing some do let us know.  Much appreciated.

or, better still, in to a tank so you can water the garden with it?

There is guttering to drain on the garage.  Which reminds me, it's about time I invested in a big ladder and did all my gutters!

We did have a dry spell recently, and almost got the garden hose out, but then the rian came again.  Dry spells here are very rare.  I think our last hose pipe ban was 1976. 

[Lazarus]

where abouts in ayrshire r u VNA?

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Sunny Largs

[Lazarus]

aye - been there many times m8.

im further up the coast and in a bit - not so sunny Stewarton.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

The first thing anybody says after you say you are fae Largs is Nardini's. 

Not started yet today.  Not that it matters, I can only dig for an hour or two then I'm done.  I'm aching all over!   I'm not built for digging.   Hopefully pass the half way mark digging wise today 

Warned the next door neighbour I might bring part of the fence down, he didn't seem too bothered, he reckoned it's well past it's best anyway. 

I'll only half dig that side, and as narrow as I can, I can either finish it a day or so before the builder arrives or can do it himself.  The less time a trench is next to the fence the lesser the chance of the post going over. 

[Lazarus]

only been in ayrshire for 45 years mate and ive NEVER been into Nardinis!!!

[rjd1]

i`m a plant operator for last 15 odd  yr
if it was me i`d rip the full terraced garden out
build retaining walls right round boundry
probably be around same price as your goin to pay builder
liftt turf and re-use same with top soil
dig out raised garden dig founds for boundry walls
lay drainage through out perforated pipe works well wrapped in teram to stop silt build up only lets water through
gravel on drain then some type 1 or similar over full area bit o teram on top then you can replace top soil and turf water will never lie again
bit extreme you think but wont cost that much to do especially if you have access to a mini digger
i`m up road a bit in west lothian
 
good luck whatever you decide

[rjd1]

be even cheaper if you get local farmer to take your old infill away
they will prob take it away for free

[VNA - BMW Wank]

only been in ayrshire for 45 years mate and ive NEVER been into Nardinis!!!

 

I thought every biker in Scotland had been to Nardini's for an ice cream.

Anyway it's still a cracking cafe, but quite what it was.  The Nardini's lost it through family in fighting, then it shut down, somebody nicked the interior and eventually it was taken over and refurbished.  They have done a great job with the cafe and the restaurant but the foyer and shop are nothing like what they used to be.  My favourite bit was the shop and bakery, full of continental stuff you couldn't get anywhere else, it was all beautiful 1930's art deco style.  For me the foyer and shop was the most beautiful part of the whole building.  I reckon it got shipped out to Moscow, New York or God knows where.  Somebody somewhere has Largs's original 1930's art deco cafe shop.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

rdj1

I've not had any lying water.  There's no damp issues with the house and the foundations are bone dry (spend a bit of time under the house re-wiring and plumbing up new radiators) 

It's just the garage has been built into the lie of the land.  Sodden earth against brick work.
All I'm trying to do is cure the serious dampness problem in my garage.

If I ever knock the wee conservatory down to build something more use-able I will check that the garden drainage is up to spec. 

[Lazarus]

if you're looking for a builder - i know a pretty good one m8.
 
he's a grafter but as with ALL of the trade - getting him tied down can sometimes be difficult.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

One of the lads at work is a builder.
Works for himself, he seems OK.

I'll get him out for another look once I've finished the digging, have a chat about what I'd like done, and get a quote.

I'll sit down and guestimate, and if his quote seems OK, I'll just roll with him. 

A few others at work have had wee jobs done by him and they've been happy.

Taking a break from digging the garden side.  So far I haven't hit the ash I hit at the back (which made the dig easy), lots of roots mixed in with half bricks.  Slow going.  Switched to the micro shovel, it really helps in a trench.   Might get a few more barrow loads in today, but I'm just about done - again. 

One thing for sure the plastic sheeting fitted on this side has not worked. 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Had a good session on Saturday.
Struggled today but got a wee bit more done.

[Lazarus]

power of work there VNA - specially as it was a good day too.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Cheers Lazarus,

Had a good session on Saturday.  Dunno how many litres of water I drank, but it was many.

I was focced today, did a bit more.

Getting there, just that narrow side to dig.  Warned next door that the fence might come down.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

A wee update.

Ended up installing a field drain and tanking it.  Once filled in again with peas, then stone (riddled several tones of earth!) so it doesn't hold much water, then some top soil for the last few inches.

Result is a 99% improvement in the dampness issue.  Still a little comes in between the bottom brick and the concrete base as I dared not under dig the base for the drain, plus the concrete forms damp patches here an there as there is no damp proof core in the base.  But it only happens during periods of heavy rain, it's dry enougth for a garage.  Massive improvement.  The brick work all seems sound despite having been damp for decades.