The Jock vote

[locksmith]

Thanks Frazer. So in reality I'm not going to notice any real difference either way.

Maybe the BBC will stop telling me Scottish footie scores if it's a split from UK - hoorah!

[His Dudeness]

If the roles were reversed and England was in Scotland's position do you think English people would vote to become their own country?

[BBROWN1664]

The trouble with England voting to go it alone is that we would get rid of Scotland and Ireland but we would still be stuck with the county of Wales

[peterjca]

Prime Minister Boris.

What an incredibly scary idea for the english.

[lew600fazer]

Thanks Frazer. So in reality I'm not going to notice any real difference either way.

Maybe the BBC will stop telling me Scottish footie scores if it's a split from UK - hoorah!

Locksmith are you telling us you do not wait with baited breath on a Saturday evening for the Forfar 4 -0 Hamilton Academicals, Caladoian Thistle etc!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

I personally believe Scotland should stay in the Union. Fight for a better deal within the Westminster Parliment.

Come on Lew, what the fuck is the point?  You know come next year's general election, I'll have a choice of The Same Old Tories, The New Tories or The Third Rate Tories, oh hang on a minute, there's the wild card bet, Nigel Farage and his merry band of Ultra Tories.

But anywhere you go in the world, people are fed up with their politicians. What makes you think Scotland would be any different Andy?

Sometimes you come across an article that kinda sums things up for you.  A Spanish fella posted this link under one of ma Flickr snaps.  It's worth a read,

Labour Pains, Labour of Love by Irvine Welsh,

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/ 

[Hedgetrimmer]

If Mr. Welsh really wants to see an improvement in England too, couldn't a movement from the people of a UK do it better than a small population such as Scotland has? What he effectively seems to be saying is that it's time for a new party that genuinely represents the needs/desires of the people. I don't see how going independent will achieve this. That just looks more like "up yours England, we'll be ok Ja(o)ck", and any wonder if that attitude causes some bad feeling?

People who really want to see change for the better stick together don't they? United we stand and all that. And I don't mean from the point of view of the politicians and their cronies, but from the real people who slog away to earn for their families, and want to see a decent future for their children.

So I think Mr. Welsh's views are actually a cop out, as is Scottish independence. Because who in Scotland has laid out a vision for a truly brave new future, one that will inspire other nations? SNP? Scottish Labour? I don't think so, they're all too enmeshed in the current ways of doing politics to change.

Where I do believe he has a point, is that it is for the younger generations to initiate this "new politics". Because us older folks are too set in our ways; because we don't have the time or the energy to do so; because we don't have the vision required. And the problem for the younger generations is going to be that their education in the universities is coming from the old systems - so unless someone with real vision and fresh inspiration arises from there, things still won't change.

He mocks Tony Blair, but this is with 20:20 hindsight. When the term "New Labour" was coined, didn't we all think that this new approach was just what we'd get? And we all know where it finished up. Who's to say an independent Scottish government/political system will be able to resist any better the very same pressures, mostly external, that dragged Labour back to it's current toothless same-as-the-rest position?

Well Andy, you know your political history better than I do. Can you think of anyone we can take as an example of a true political visionary; someone who had the vision and also the courage and the sheer force of will to make change on the scale that's needed? Someone who set out the goal, the path, and took his nation there? Has there ever been such a politician in the world? Because yes, frankly, I'm cynical. Because you won't be just fighting back against the current UK system, but the world system. How will Scottish independence change that? The world will only say to Scotland, "move aside mere drop of water, let the ocean pass".

[unfazed]

Apparently it the Scots vote YES the British government will take the Loch Ness monster and put it in Wast Water to entice more tourist to that side of the lake district 

[lew600fazer]

I personally believe Scotland should stay in the Union. Fight for a better deal within the Westminster Parliment.

Come on Lew, what the fuck is the point?  You know come next year's general election, I'll have a choice of The Same Old Tories, The New Tories or The Third Rate Tories, oh hang on a minute, there's the wild card bet, Nigel Farage and his merry band of Ultra Tories.

But anywhere you go in the world, people are fed up with their politicians. What makes you think Scotland would be any different Andy?

Sometimes you come across an article that kinda sums things up for you.  A Spanish fella posted this link under one of ma Flickr snaps.  It's worth a read,

Labour Pains, Labour of Love by Irvine Welsh,

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/

The point is, as Eton boy says it will be a painful Divorce. Sadly that statement said to me Scotland will pay a high price for that divorce. 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 Nick Scotland has voted Tory for 6 years out of 68.

 We've had Tory governments for 38 out of 68 years.

 Now the Labour Part in England resembles the Tory party.  The Lid Dems have jumped into bed with the Tories and helped them introduce The Bedroom tax and cut benefits. There are three Tory parties in England.

Sure I know people in England are pissed off as pissed off every bit as we are, but England wants to turn to Farage's fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists, in England people seem to think the answer to their woes are ultra Tories who want even more tax cuts and tax breaks for the rich.

The reason we have this referendum is because every time The Scottish Labour Party tried to oppose private money, privatisation and put forward decent social reform, well Tony and then Gordon were on the phone saying - no you fucking don't.  So folks turned to the SNP, the SNP ran a minority administration (cos the Lid Dems refused to join in coalition with a party they actually had a lot in common with).  The SNP did a good job, consensus politics worked too,  so at the next election people dropped Labour like a stone.  The SNP did the impossible and won a majority - politics had imploded in Scotland.   The SNP are telling Labour voters, much to the fury of Scottish Labour, vote YES and claim your Labour party back.

What do we do, reject this and say, oh well, lets just keep getting dragged in a direction we don't wanna go.  Vote NO and say yes to more inequality and food banks etc etc.
Welsh is right, the UK worked well for a couple of decades or so, but then it was back to fuck the peasants.

Politics is for all, I wasn't brought up in the tradition that Irvine Welsh was, I was brought up to be British and vote Tory.   I started work in 1986 for the SSEB, right from the off my pay got screwed by Thatcher to suit her YTS scheme (2 years of my apprenticeship was processed as YTS), then I lost more money to the poll tax (trialled in Scotland), then she announced our privatisation.  Jesus, just out of school I got fucked over several times by the Tories in a very short space of time.    I never did vote Tory, and by 1997 I was thinking, sure I'll vote YES YES for the Scottish Parliament but Salmond better fucking be right that we will find a way out of this trap.  And stone me did he!  So it's bugged me for years, why has it taken so many years for good clever people like Irvine Welsh to wise up.

Remember if we win this it'll be with solid trade union Labour voters voting YES.  I still can't believe it, believe that there really is a chance.

And of wiseing up, waking up, I think it'll take Scottish Independence to wake England up.  But if we fuck it up, well it'll be our fuck up.   No more whinging, no more blaming others.   
I'm fed up with Tory rule.  I'm voting YES!
 

[lew600fazer]

Remember if we win this it'll be with solid trade union Labour voters voting YES.  I still can't believe it, believe that there really is a chance.

It was the Solid Trade Unions that fucked the country up in the first place. Upper Clyde Ship Builders, for years with their strikes , late delivery of ships and build quality was a fucking joke. Trust me I can comment on the quality of ships built on the Clyde , Belfast and also the Tyne ship yards absolute shite.


Between the Shipyards, Mine workers, Dockers, Steel workers and Car makers, people point the finger at Thatcher and blame her for the dismise of british manufacturing, blame the unions and the Scotiish unions played a big part. Perhaps one of the reasons Thatcher basically ingnored the Industrial regions of the UK.

[Hedgetrimmer]

Sigh. Well, there was a bit of both wasn't there Lew? And there's the rub for me. This is why I don't usually get involved in politics or political debate. Both sides are as bad as each other, and when challenged, they both put the blinkers on and say, "no, we were right, they were wrong" and it all just snowballs in to a big slanging match. The members of the unions always seem to end up being led by yet more self-serving fat cats; just that these ones call themselves socialists, then get rich off the backs of their brothers, then get their own agendas. How true that money corrupts!

I do see your point of view Andy. Maybe I'm even a little bit jealous that England can't vote for independence from it's parliamentary system. But in reality, I don't think it's that clear cut. Yes, we need a new approach to politics, things have got stale and the voters have turned away. I just don't see any effective alternative for us down here right now.

[slimwilly]

You will all start voting Conservative or Labour when the Muslim party put up a Westminter party 

[bigbluebear]

You will all start voting Conservative or Labour when the Muslim party put up a Westminter party 

You're not wrong there Slim.....we already have Muslim MP's and with our immigration back door wide open they'll get the vote for sure

[lew600fazer]

You will all start voting Conservative or Labour when the Muslim party put up a Westminter party 

Sharia law mate that is the way to go, caught stealing , chop yer hand off, Caught abusing children in areas like Rotterham, Rochdale etc!! will bring the death penaltiy.

It should be made  compulsory to vote, on the ballot paper there should be a section were you state you do not support any political party if that is your choice.

Thatcher wielded the axe that Scargill sharpened for her. I am pretty sure the decline in relations between Scotland & England started to speed up during those years.

[Farjo]

You will all start voting Conservative or Labour when the Muslim party put up a Westminter party 

You're not wrong there Slim.....we already have Muslim MP's and with our immigration back door wide open they'll get the vote for sure

They've probably got a better grasp of English than you!

  Nowadays it's politically incorrect to call someone a 'bigot'

Maybe in 2016 London will have a Mayor who is Muslim. That's a good way of saying foc-u to the rest of the country (but I think Tess'll win it.)


Independence for London!

[fireblake]

I still don't see the fascination with being in Europe? What's racist about UKIP? Maybe some of the party have been racist in the past but people change their views. I have a friend who was staunch National front as a teenager and now is a missionary in Africa. I don't blame you for voting SNP given the choices but the only time I've ever voted Labour was when King Tony became Prime minister. Like you, i think its time for a good political shake up. Our local councillor is UKIP and is the only politician i've seen out and about other than election time, he's a local lad and working tirelessly for our community.
I'm all for debate and have an open mind but all i hear is the same old same old.
On another note, I've just spent nearly £500 on a driver CPC so i can prove i can drive my truck after 27 years of driving HGV's. The French brought this in a few years ago and guess what, the UK is the only country implementing it. At the moment anyway.


Mickey

[bigbluebear]

You will all start voting Conservative or Labour when the Muslim party put up a Westminter party 

You're not wrong there Slim.....we already have Muslim MP's and with our immigration back door wide open they'll get the vote for sure

They've probably got a better grasp of English than you!

  Nowadays it's politically incorrect to call someone a 'bigot'

Maybe in 2016 London will have a Mayor who is Muslim. That's a good way of saying foc-u to the rest of the country (but I think Tess'll win it.)


Independence for London!

They'll have a better idea of screwing the benefits system than me never mind the language

[Farjo]

If you say so mate

[lew600fazer]

If you say so mate

Can we just stick to the debate , never mind nit picking one s spelling or grammar

[Farjo]

  The whole thread is a hijack! Locksmith just wanted to know how the result would affect him Interesting that you're happy with the anti-muslim hijack but not my throw-away comment on English

[JoeRock]

Lloyds and Bank of Scotland have now confirmed that in the event of independence, they're going to move their offices to London.


Just how a country of 5 million people thinks its going to survive entirely on a few gallons of oil, without much else of an economy I don't know.


London and the south east would have a better chance of independence!

[VNA - BMW Wank]

It was the Solid Trade Unions that fucked the country up in the first place. Upper Clyde Ship Builders, for years with their strikes , late delivery of ships and build quality was a fucking joke. Trust me I can comment on the quality of ships built on the Clyde , Belfast and also the Tyne ship yards absolute shite.

Do you wanna ken a country that has Solid Trade Unions?  Germany.  It has a strong unionised labour force, some of the best terms and working conditions in the world.  And you know what, they protected their industry.  Think of cars, VW, AUDI, BMW, Porsche.  Wages terms and conditions that workers in the UK can only dream of now.

Sir John Harvey Jones, said, I think;

There is no such thing as bad industrial relations - only bad management.

[lew600fazer]

VNA , The big difference with the Germans is they had to rebuild their country after the war , as did we , The difference was they knew what they were doing. The cars you mentioned are all quality products. The Germans take a pride in what they do. For years we just produced shite.

Surely one of the best strikes to take place in the UK car industry was the FORD Plant at Halewood on Merseyside, I think they went on strike because there were to many cats running wild around the factory.

Thankfully we now seem to have decent industrail relatiions in the UK,, The car industry is going from strength to strength, both management and the workforce realise they have to produce a decent product on budget and on time.

I have to admit though yesterdays statement by the 3 muppets, that if there is a NO vote they will give additionally powers to the Scottish Parliment. How fecking condesending is that? To me that smacks of bribery and also an admission that perhaps they accept the playing field needs to be levelled some what.
I would have a lot more respect if the 3 men making this pledge actually had any standing/respect in the UK as a whole, Nick Clegg, David Cameron, Miliband is such a statesman I cannot even remember his fist name

[Pat]

It was the Solid Trade Unions that fucked the country up in the first place. Upper Clyde Ship Builders, for years with their strikes , late delivery of ships and build quality was a fucking joke. Trust me I can comment on the quality of ships built on the Clyde , Belfast and also the Tyne ship yards absolute shite.

Do you wanna ken a country that has Solid Trade Unions?  Germany.  It has a strong unionised labour force, some of the best terms and working conditions in the world.  And you know what, they protected their industry.  Think of cars, VW, AUDI, BMW, Porsche.  Wages terms and conditions that workers in the UK can only dream of now.

Sir John Harvey Jones, said, I think;

There is no such thing as bad industrial relations - only bad management.

Ironic that in your defence of the workers, you cite someone that turfed a third of the ICI workforce onto the dole in order to boost ICI's profits....