Author Topic: Educate, don't legislate! (Read 3931 times)

Grahamm · « **on:** 14 July 2012, 06:30:47 pm »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18840110

Quote

Speed limits on many rural roads in England could be cut from 60mph to 40mph under government proposals.

The reduction should be considered by councils on roads with "many bends or junctions", the Department for Transport (DfT) says in draft guidance.

Some 49% of road deaths in 2010 in the UK took place on single carriageway rural roads with a 60mph speed limit.

Road Safety Minister Mike Penning said it was "vital that speed limits are suitable for local conditions".

No, Mike Penning, it's vital that drivers (and riders) know that they need to use the road at a *speed* which is "suitable for local conditions"!

There are roads where doing 60mph is perfectly safe, there are others where doing 40mph is entirely *unsafe*, introducing a blanket 40mph limit on many roads will do little to improve road safety because too many non-Advanced motorists simply consider a limit to be "the speed I should drive at" rather than taking into consideration road conditions, the severity of a bend, side turnings, junctions, visibility etc etc etc.

What the Government needs to do is to encourage all drivers and riders to go beyond the basic Test which only teaches the bare minimum of skills for someone to be allowed out in control of a vehicle and get them to take Advanced Training which will teach them to drive appropriately on the roads.

This, coupled with the Insurers offering sensible and substantial discounts for those who have taken Advanced Training will do much more to improve road safety than limits which, for the most part, will be ignored by those who are inclined to speed because they know there's little chance of them being enforced.

Phil TK · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 July 2012, 06:49:13 pm »

Quote from: Grahamm on 14 July 2012, 06:30:47 pm

No, Mike Penning, it's vital that drivers (and riders) know that they need to use the road at a *speed* which is "suitable for local conditions"!

I agree with you wholeheartedly, unfortunately the average road user is not so easily educated and so a punitive measure is very necessary. Most people only adjust their speed because a roadsign tells them to, not because of road conditions or anything else. No safety/awareness campaign has ever changed that and probably never will.
I agree with this 40mph limit because of that, and in addition it will help keep keep traffic/tyre noise down in the countryside.
Incidently, the biggest threat on the roads thesedays is young people texting and using phones, I really cannot believe how many of them are doing it, -almost half of them I'd say. Let's have an automatic one month ban for culprits Mr Penning.

bikerboys · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 July 2012, 07:12:06 pm »

THIS is nothing more nothing less just another way of fleecing the motorist yet again. This government JUST want to force the average man/woman off the road by fining him/her at every opportunity.

Speed is not the biggest single killer on today's roads but careless driving and dangerous roads.

I could be riding at low speed and doing something stupid. Also, councils are reluctant to wake up put simple traffic measures in place to make some roads - well known roads - to make them fit for purpose. Some old trunk roads are so dangerous where accidents were not caused by speed.

another way of fleecing instead of fixing the road's

and fix the roads

AdieR · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 July 2012, 07:17:38 pm »

What gets me about that story is the idea of dropping the speed to 40mph, with a photo of a rutted, potholed road which *definitely* isn't a safety hazard at all........

Lower speed limits will simply mean less reason (less incentive) to spend money on repairs.

I recall reading a story some years back (supposedly from a council insider) who reckoned that local authorities were putting cycle lanes on roads not to be kind to cyclists, or for environmental reasons, but to justify lower speed limits by narrowing the effective width of the road.

Let them sort out potholes and poorly surfaced roads first - then consider lower limits where necessary.

Skippernick · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 July 2012, 07:40:23 pm »

Relax everyone.
What with the austerity measures there won't be enough cops to enforce said new speed limits so we won't have to worry within reason.

dickturpin · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 July 2012, 08:29:02 pm »

enforcement is one thing...another might be speed being assessed after an accident to decide blame???

Hamos · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 July 2012, 10:01:24 pm »

As the article says these proposals are "open to public consultation". If this pisses you off then write to your MP saying so and give your reasons. That is why they are there and why we elected them. If all we do is moan on forums then the public consultation will just be supported by the do gooders who want it and it will go through.

richfzs · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 July 2012, 10:12:48 pm »

If your MP is worth anything at all, (s)he should take your comments on board - at the very least, they are obliged to write back, so you know something of where they stand.

Rusty · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 July 2012, 10:36:35 pm »

It's all done in the name of safety. How often have we heard that? I think it would be very interesting for a lawyer who is game enough to take a test case against the government that hinges on the following:

Substandard road surfaces cause accidents. Potholes, raised manhole covers, and the degraded surfacing of highways are potentially lethal to motorcyclists, while also impairing the steering and braking performance of other road vehicles who encounter such conditions. As the government is ultimately responsible for the roads they are failing in their duty of care to road users, and must be held to account for the accidents and costly damage caused to vehicles each year by those substandard roads.

If it's safety they want let them first make the roads themselves safe, reimburse road users for damage to their vehicles caused by potholes, and pay compensation to the families of those who lose their life or limb as a result of those substandard road surfaces. We've paid the taxes, now we should demand the fix before they start levying new fines plucked out of thin air.

If they want to justify this latest revenue generating ploy with 'road safety' statistics, then let them also be obliged to compile statistics showing the number and cost of accidents caused by the condition of roads themselves. For each one the government could then be 'fined' and the money pooled and used to offset the cost of repairs to damaged vehicles.

And before anyone says they already do any of this - No they don't. I've just been through it, and the local council told outright lies, they even stonewalled in the face of photographic evidence. Note to government;- It was your buddy's the bankers plus Tony Blair's endless war that emptied the coffers - NOT US!

PS. My MP doesn't reply at all. He's not worth a wank.

BBROWN1664 · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 July 2012, 12:47:04 pm »

Quote

"It seems strange that you've got minor roads, often that are just tarmaced
tracks, that have a speed limit of 60mph - just 10mph less than the motorways,"
he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme

Or to put it another way, the limit on motorways is obviously too low when it is considered safe to do 60mph on single carriage way roads.

dolau · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 July 2012, 12:52:52 pm »

Have to say I dont think we should leave speed limits to our highways colleagues ... I am sure we all know of roads with totally ludicrous speed limits imposed for some long forgotten reason- I cite the A4 dual carriageway between the A46 Bath and bathford with a 50 limit in both directions and speed camera only on one

there are many dual carriageways with a 50 limit- why???????

I would also like to understand what they call a rural road- one in the countryside or just the track to the nearest farm? Excluding A and B roads? or what- and if they arent going to erect signs how on earth will we know if someone has decided on reclassifying a road speed limit until the brown envelope with three points drops through your letter box!

Rusty · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 July 2012, 02:28:20 pm »

The biggest factor they appear to ignore is drivers not driving relative to the road conditions/ weather, etc but you can't legislate for lack of common sense. A 70mph limit on motorways doesn't mean 70mph in snow, thick fog or bad visibility, but still you see it happening. As I said above the government tend to address road safety purely in terms of speed limits which has the additional (purely coincidental I'm sure

) bonus of filling the coffers with speeding fines.

Education is definitely preferable, the government's chosen option is to punish all for the failings of the few (again).

dolau · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 July 2012, 09:19:24 pm »

The ' nanny state' rules again

Lazarus · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 July 2012, 09:43:16 pm »

Quote from: Rusty on 16 July 2012, 02:28:20 pm

The biggest factor they appear to ignore is drivers not driving relative to the road conditions/ weather, etc but you can't legislate for lack of common sense. A 70mph limit on motorways doesn't mean 70mph in snow, thick fog or bad visibility, but still you see it happening. As I said above the government tend to address road safety purely in terms of speed limits which has the additional (purely coincidental I'm sure ) bonus of filling the coffers with speeding fines.

Education is definitely preferable, the government's chosen option is to punish all for the failings of the few (again).

Agree with that - number of muppets I see driving OVER the speedlimit regardless of the conditions is mind blowing.

However, and im sure everyone has experienced this, how about the f**kwits who drive too SLOW for the conditions?

i used to drop kids off a school before heading to work and often got stuck behind someone doing 30mph regardless of the road conditions (in a 60 zone)

as well as the numpties who join a motorway ~40mph and immediately move to the middle lane.

for me - some of these scenarios cause irritation and unnecessary overtake manouvers.

sometimes the "Darwin" principle needs to be applied. folk who are too daft to drive remove themselves from the gene pool.

AdieR · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 July 2012, 11:08:33 pm »

One of the things that really irks me is the brain-dead half-wits who come up on a vehicle doing 30mph, then try to overtake it at 32mph and dawdle alongside for ages.....ffs, if you're going to overtake, do it.

The pillock on the M621 in Leeds about 3 years ago who hammered on the brakes because another car was coming down a slip-road to join the motorway - the car on the slip-road promptly did the same (probably wondering why the first one braked).

The daft tart on the M5 who tried cut me up diving from the outside lane to the middle.

Those very special people who actually stop on the end of a slip-road - wtf??

Most annoying of all, are the irritating twats who insist on overtaking you, and then slowing down once they get in front (either in a bid to stop people speeding, or because they're IQ is about equal to their finger count) - these {insert your own expletive / insulting word here} should be fed to a 15ft crocodile as punishment for their stupidity.

Raymy · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 July 2012, 10:26:57 am »

Well said G

dolau · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 July 2012, 10:36:25 pm »

And as a user of 'rural roads' its not just motorway drivers that need euthenasia!

Major Rant · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 July 2012, 12:42:41 am »

Unfortunately we're dealing with the lowest common denominator here..

Its a public road, the "public" use it and they have a right to feel safe.

If the fastest Granny can comfortably drive to the supermarket is 30MPH then you'll just have to work round her.
The alternative is to ban her from the road and and have social services import someone aged 23 from Romania to go shopping for her in their Renault Logan.

So get used to it, its their road too!

Having said that, it pisses me off that they can buy a BMW 635 that can comfortably do 140MPH and they drive it at 60MPH on a perfectly straight road and THEN do 30MPH in the twisty bits where you can't overtake 'em.

SteveH41 · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 July 2012, 07:38:26 am »

Speed is not the issue, it's the quality and standard of today's driving that's the problem.

Enforce with an iron fist the problems created by those who use mobile phones, a far greater threat than speed in my opinion. I drive a fair bit for my work and the amount of these morons, usually with BMW / Audi / Mercedes (hmm must be a German thing) that have a mobile stuck to their ear for miles on end drives me mental, I have a bloody van with factory fit bluetooth surely you can get one in a fekin high end motor!!!!!!!!!!!

Also stop people smoking when driving, drinking, eating etc etc. Too many variables inside the vehicle to deal with before chopping 10 mph of the local speeds. Due care and attention need improving first.

I recently went from CBT to DAS in a little over 2 months and got myself every book available regarding riding safely, having sat the theory test it's obvious something needs to be done. I would like to see a refresher driving test every 10 years max, a low cost version without a failure option, purely a revision and bad habit highlighting style test. You don't fail, you merely have to undergo further improvement training and also there should be a basic controls test whereby you have to be able to operate on a test rig a set of controls, steering, brakes etc with a certain amount of resistance determined by your age.

How many people (forgive me here) do see behind the wheel either to frail or two fat to operate the controls in an emergency situation. There should be a fitness test, might get some lard off those arses of some folk.

All in my humble opinion of course.

Steve.

Dave48 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 July 2012, 09:40:45 am »

As each day passes I become more of a grumpy old foccer. What P****s me off is the never ending attempts by those " in control?" to bring in more & more legislation that in many cases is unenforceable-look at the use of mobile phones in vehicles-how many do it & how many are caught? and yet we all know its impossible to concentrate on driving & be having a phone conversation simultaneously. I suppose if they re-introduce the 1904 red flag act we will all be so much safer-4mph. You can try to educate joe public but its easier to wield the stick than wave the carrot. Some years ago the buzz phrase was "life-long" learning but to allow car drivers to take a basic test with no refresher training during a possible 60+ year driving career is a nonsense. Speed limits -yes in the right place. Every time I use the roads(daily) I see selfish, inconsiderate, thoughtless and incompetent behaviour. When I took my car & bike tests well over 40 years ago I then started to learn, but in the intervening years have had to change my driving style to suit modern circumstances.In cars we were taught to change down through the gears to slow down(brakes werent that good )-Nowadays its block changing-"Gears to go & brakes to slow" I have a sister who has driven for 30plus years but always holds the gear lever with her left hand-a habit she finds almost impossible to break now!
HGV & PSV drivers have periodic assessments/medicals so why not car drivers? Personally I feel that the more you bombard people with road signs/speed cameras/speed bumps-the less likely they are to take notice/see the point of such. Less is more in my philosophy-in the early days of motoring the AA would only put up a road sign for a potentially serious hazard-nowadays the nanny state would prefer it if we didnt leave our houses without a bloody day-glo tabard. What is wrong with teaching children about risk & danger without making them fearful or paranoid? Final question In this age of information overload what is the real value of of education if it doesnt teach people to think or question?.Ive met some people(with degrees)who dont exactly shine with common sense!

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Rusty · « **Reply #20 on:** 20 July 2012, 11:02:02 am »

Quote from: Dave48 on 20 July 2012, 09:40:45 am

the nanny state would prefer it if we didnt leave our houses without a bloody day-glo tabard.

Personally I am beyond taking anything the political classes do seriously. For example, the much trumpeted 2012 olympics will now be guarded by British Soldiers in full camouflage gear.... and a day-glo vest. You couldn't make it up!

Jacko · « **Reply #21 on:** 20 July 2012, 08:00:02 pm »

graded licences are they way to go. Been saying it for 20 years.

regarding country lanes, I fear the locals who charge around too fast
but its ok as they ' know the roads'

pitternator · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 July 2012, 07:24:25 am »

its all hogwash...totally unenforcable...like all the existing traffic laws. There aint anyone left to do it ....its IMO the major reason why our roads are infested with idiots and poor driving ( not to mention uninsured drivers) ...cos they know they can get away with it.

write all the letters you like...it wont change a tory government in its course of action ...

Dave48 · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 July 2012, 07:43:19 am »

Well said, Pitternator. No-one left to enforce existing traffic laws, let alone any new ones! I guess whatever police we have left will be drafted to London for the Olympics. I live in Birmingham and rarely see marked police cars/bikes on our roads-Probably one reason why an area of my city is the"uninsurance capital" of the UK! I suppose if they bring in more speed limit road signs to add to the present "information overload"-at least its another business opportunity for the scrap metal thieves!

Rusty · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 July 2012, 08:01:55 am »

To be honest I find those little roadside signs that flash up your speed to be quite effective (on me anyway) I slow down just to see the sign smile.