Popular Science on synthetic vs mineral oils

[Slaninar]

Ancient article. Starts at page 90:

http://books.google.rs/books?id=FAEAAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Found it interesting. Looks like a scientific, valid test.

[rustyrider]

But it is comparing synthetic oils with state of the art mineral oils in 1976.  Oil has moved on quite a bit since then.......

[Slaninar]

But it is comparing synthetic oils with state of the art mineral oils in 1976.  Oil has moved on quite a bit since then.......

So you think modern mineral oils are as good as modern synthetics?

[rustyrider]

Not as good but a lot better.  In that article they are talking about synthetic oils meeting SE spec.  Oils are now up to SG even for mineral based oils.  It used to be common to strip an engine every 10,000 miles to clean the carbon deposits off the valves and top of the pistons.  Now it isn't uncommon for engines to go for 100,000 or considerably more without being touched.  I've got two V8 Range Rovers, one with 186,000 miles on it and the other with 267,000 on it.  That's all down to modern fuels and oils as the design of the engines date back to the 1960's.

[Slaninar]

Not as good but a lot better. 

Modern mineral oils are better than modern synthetics?

[rustyrider]

No, modern mineral oils are a lot better than they used to be.  A modern mineral oil is probably better than a 1976 synthetic.

[Slaninar]

No, modern mineral oils are a lot better than they used to be.  A modern mineral oil is probably better than a 1976 synthetic.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I found the article interesting - scientific test and comparison. Would love to read a more up to date version.

[beach700]

I am going to see if I dig up a link I read recently...
I think it was a Ferrari forum... and this guy posted a dissertation of oils.
It was an amazing read by a fellow knuckle-head.


Ninja-Edit:
Here it is:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

[Motorbreath]

I've read on the internet a couple of guys who say they are mechanics telling that they have received advise from Yamaha and Honda to employ just mineral oil even on newer R1 or R6, and just mineral or semi for CBR. I do not remember where and they were at spanish and argentina sites anyway.
Every mechanic recommends mineral on my Thunderace, it seems to transform into a 2-stroke engine otherwise.

[Slaninar]

That Ferrari forum is very good read. Makes sense what the man writes.

@dr Motorbreath: I believe full synth API SM (or higher) JASO MA2 oil is better than any mineral oil for your motorcycle.

[Hedgetrimmer]

I've read on the internet a couple of guys who say they are mechanics telling that they have received advise from Yamaha and Honda to employ just mineral oil even on newer R1 or R6, and just mineral or semi for CBR. I do not remember where and they were at spanish and argentina sites anyway.
Every mechanic recommends mineral on my Thunderace, it seems to transform into a 2-stroke engine otherwise.

Yamalube motorcycle oil comes in semi and fully synthetic. So, ?

[Motorbreath]

That Ferrari forum is very good read. Makes sense what the man writes.

@dr Motorbreath: I believe full synth API SM (or higher) JASO MA2 oil is better than any mineral oil for your motorcycle.

Please do not call me doctor, I'm starting mechanics studies, maybe just nurse? . In fact the new castrol mineral I'm using now is 20w50 is API SJ and JASO MA2. I've also read that higher than SG or SJ, I do not remember exactly, has nothing to do to its lubricating qualities but preserving the new catalityc converters, removing some nice substances actually.

Those old FZR/YZF 1000 engines drink oil due to huge tolerances between engine parts, so everybody uses mineral for them. The text I mentioned was written by an argentine Yamaha mechanic and he said that even the R1 engines from a few years ago had very "old time" tolerances between parts. But it is the internet, maybe it was all bulls*it.
 

I've read on the internet a couple of guys who say they are mechanics telling that they have received advise from Yamaha and Honda to employ just mineral oil even on newer R1 or R6, and just mineral or semi for CBR. I do not remember where and they were at spanish and argentina sites anyway.
Every mechanic recommends mineral on my Thunderace, it seems to transform into a 2-stroke engine otherwise.

Yamalube motorcycle oil comes in semi and fully synthetic. So, ?

Yeah, same thoughts for me. Who knows, maybe that info wasn't right, maybe it is just for marketing or track. But I took a look at a 2008 R1 manual and it still recommends ancient oils for it.

[Hedgetrimmer]

Personally, I have never had problems running Jap in-line 4s on good quality semi synthetic. I see no reason to change now. 

[Slaninar]

Personally, I have never had problems running Jap in-line 4s on good quality semi synthetic. I see no reason to change now. 

You shouldn't get any problems. Just a bit less mpg and a bit less miles before the engine is busted.

[Simon.Pieman]

[quote author=Motorbreath link=topic=10674.msg113025#msg113025 date=1384354735

Those old FZR/YZF 1000 engines drink oil due to huge tolerances between engine parts, so everybody uses mineral for them. The text I mentioned was written by an argentine Yamaha mechanic and he said that even the R1 engines from a few years ago had very "old time" tolerances between parts. But it is the internet, maybe it was all bulls*it.

'
This is rubbish. On what basis do you presume that mineral oil can fill in the 'huge tolerances' on older engines -and infer that synthetic oils cannot? Engines do not 'drink oil' due to large tolerances anyway -it's usually wear, not the standard tolerance being bigger.
 These 'huge tolerances' are imaginary anyway, if you check the tolerances on the mains, big/small ends and cam bearings on a YZF1000 you will find they are comparable with the tolerances on modern engines.
 Fortunately for your brainless mechanic, modern 'mineral oils' are mostly well up to spec for our engines and for most people are perfectly good enough. Obviously if you spend time on track days or like to use all your machines performance a higher spec semi-synth would be better.
 All oils are mineral by the way,  synthetic oils are simply chemically engineered mineral oils altered to perform better and more consistantly.
 

[Slaninar]

All oils are mineral by the way,  synthetic oils are simply chemically engineered mineral oils altered to perform better and more consistantly.

I don't think this is always the case.

[Motorbreath]

This is rubbish. On what basis do you presume that mineral oil can fill in the 'huge tolerances' on older engines -and infer that synthetic oils cannot? Engines do not 'drink oil' due to large tolerances anyway -it's usually wear, not the standard tolerance being bigger.
 These 'huge tolerances' are imaginary anyway, if you check the tolerances on the mains, big/small ends and cam bearings on a YZF1000 you will find they are comparable with the tolerances on modern engines.
 Fortunately for your brainless mechanic, modern 'mineral oils' are mostly well up to spec for our engines and for most people are perfectly good enough. Obviously if you spend time on track days or like to use all your machines performance a higher spec semi-synth would be better.
 All oils are mineral by the way,  synthetic oils are simply chemically engineered mineral oils altered to perform better and more consistantly.
 

Yamaha's 1002cc engine burns oil. It's a fact. You can say you know an Exup or an Ace who doesn't. Also you can say you know somebody who won at the lottery.

Repsol makes a 25w60 oil for high mileage car engines: high viscosity oils doesn't goes so easily. High viscosity oils are mineral, there is no point of making high viscosity synths since that is already covered. But you cannot make a good for racing 0w30 mineral oil. Synths fill the gap.

There is nothing brainless of using a SG or SJ oil despite it is synth or not, in a bike designed for SE(1971) like ours. Even the 2012 R1 works on SG(1987).

All oils are mineral by the way,  synthetic oils are simply chemically engineered mineral oils altered to perform better and more consistantly.

I don't think this is always the case.

That's like saying we are made of food and beer

 

[Simon.Pieman]

There is nothing brainless of using a SG or SJ oil despite it is synth or not, in a bike designed for SE(1971) like ours. Even the 2012 R1 works on SG(1987).

 That's not the reason you stated. You said your mechanic thinks that mineral oils are the only type 'thick' enough to fill the gaps in 'huge tolerances', which is silly nonsense.
Mineral oils are only usually reccomended for running in new engines when tolerances are <cough> tight, this is because the metals have a 'rough' (for want of better word) surface texture from the machining process, the lower protection of mineral oil allows the surface to wear to size, although this process is largely not needed because of better machining methods.