Author Topic: Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting (Read 4873 times)

ogri48 · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 October 2019, 07:16:56 pm »

I think I used long nosed pliars bud. just gotta watch you dont ding the filters as they come out. they are tight little bastards, you can see how I damaged that first bloody o ring...

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #26 on:** 23 October 2019, 09:34:06 pm »

The staggered main jet sizes are standard, nothing to do with your problem.

Needle nose pliers, straight pull and try to avoid marring the brass as you do it.

Prise the filters off the float needle seat with a small pick or 'driver. Makes removing/fitting the O-rings a lot easier and reduces chance of damaging them. You will probably find that the old O-rings have flattened and may even snap as you pry them out of their grooves. If so, that tends to suggest that they will have been leaking.

NitramA · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 October 2019, 03:47:44 pm »

As I’m comfortable that Ive sorted the problems with the cold starting Ive made the (rash) decision to fit Ivans kit.
Using a pin drill I’ve drilled the two air bypass holes but never felt the bit where it tightened up or dropped by 1mm. I used the drill using very little downward pressure as advised but it just seemed to keep going forever. Probably didn’t but it sure felt like it.

It got to the point where I was concerned I was over drilling so I stopped and took some photo’s. Do the holes look OK?

I also wondered if my pin drill was too fat as the chuck part touches the carb flap. Could that be upsetting the angle of attack?

NitramA · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 October 2019, 03:48:55 pm »

And the proper photo!

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 October 2019, 05:37:21 pm »

Look OK to me but try this ...

Take the drill bit out of the vise, reverse it and try putting the non-fluted end into the hole to check clearance and depth.

You might want to run the drill through again very lightly just to clean up the edges. They look a little rough but it might just be the hi-res photo.

Don't worry about the vise touching the throttle plate, that's normal. You've actually achieved a steep angle of attack than I used to which might account for the different feeling you got on completing the enlargement.

ogri48 · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 October 2019, 07:39:09 pm »

looks good to me too. its a right old game innit lol. be so much easier if you ever do it again

NitramA · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 October 2019, 09:40:43 pm »

I’d like to say I’m enjoying this but Jeez it’s bloody horrible!

As Mike suggested I swapped the drill round and it does go in, it definitely tidied up the holes but I’m not sure what it would be like if it was wrong.

I’ve done another two holes and still can’t feel when I’m breaking through.
I just keep stopping and checking to see where I am, then take a view on whether I’ve gone far enough.
I’ve increased the amount of drill poking out of the vice by a couple of mm and that seems to help both in angle and being able to see what I’m doing.

Of course because you’re not going in vertical the holes tapered and it seems much bigger than it actually is (I hope).

I’ll do the other two carbs tomorrow after my poor old heart recovers.

ogri48 · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 October 2019, 10:12:32 pm »

I had the same worries mate. But im fairly certain you cant overdrill, not by hand anyhow, unless you went absolutely mental at it. once youve broken through I think the bit is up against solid alloy. it'll be fine dude. just make sure you blow all the shite out properly. thats advice from bitter experience again lol

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 October 2019, 08:41:07 am »

Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...

You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?

With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.

NitramA · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 October 2019, 01:15:21 pm »

Quote from: Falcon 269 on 25 October 2019, 08:41:07 am

Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...

You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?

With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.

I’m using the one for the slip on silencer - even though mines still running a standard system.

I found extending the drill bit helps a bit as it does seem to make it easier to use.
I also got to number 3 carb and found out the reason for my problems. Basically I needed to grow a pair!

I took the taking your time and don’t use excessive force too far and was fannying around too much.
If I upped the pressure (slightly) and increased the rotation speed a bit it went through and dropped/became tight as described.
Went back to the other holes and they all went through as expected. What a Tw*t!

I did set the air screws to 4.75 turns out but if you think I should go with 4 I’ll definitely give that a go.

And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing

robbo · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 October 2019, 02:34:31 pm »

And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing

We've all been there bud at one time or another

. Keep at it, sounds as though you're doing just fine

NitramA · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 October 2019, 04:10:41 pm »

Latest update: so I’ve just about finished. Springs cut, slides drilled, jets cleaned and main replaced.
Thanks to Ogri I’ve replaced the O rings too, and I’m glad I did. They really were on their way out! In fact due to the state of them I also bought new needle valves, valve seats and o rings for the pilot jet.
Now I’m checking the float heights and notice that two of them are already at 14mm.
So taking Mike’s statement about always being 12.5 mm I’m either measuring it wrong or the new needle/seats are slightly different lengths from standard. I think it’s more a case of the latter rather than the former?

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 October 2019, 05:27:54 pm »

Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ...

I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.

On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.

NitramA · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 October 2019, 05:39:09 pm »

Quote from: Falcon 269 on 27 October 2019, 05:27:54 pm

Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ...

I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.

On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.

I went with Yambits as I thought they would be better than the stuff you see on eBay for a couple of quid. Maybe I shouldn’t have....
I’ll refit the originals and see what it looks like.

NitramA · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 October 2019, 06:18:02 pm »

Replaced the needle valve with the original (kept new needle valve seat) and the float height goes to around what it should be.
One thing I did notice was when I move the carbs, using the old needle valve, the float hits the needle valve then sinks as the pin is compressed.
With the new needle valve, it seems to just sit there and doesn’t compress the pin by much, if at all.
The pin is definitely free but the spring seems to be a slightly higher tension.

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #40 on:** 27 October 2019, 06:42:25 pm »

Same thing that I found when I was presented with a set of the Yambits float valve units to fit for someone.

There's a short but distinct pause between the float tang touching the needle pin and when it compresses and the float drops again. Makes a difference, I believe, hence my preference for genuine Yamaha/Mikuni parts.

You should be OK with using the OE needles in the Yambits seats but if it were me, I'd refit the originals and chalk the Yambits buy down to experience.

One of my favourite sayings ... "Experience is what acquire get just after you needed it".

NitramA · « **Reply #41 on:** 27 October 2019, 08:16:50 pm »

Quote from: Falcon 269 on 27 October 2019, 06:42:25 pm

Same thing that I found when I was presented with a set of the Yambits float valve units to fit for someone.

There's a short but distinct pause between the float tang touching the needle pin and when it compresses and the float drops again. Makes a difference, I believe, hence my preference for genuine Yamaha/Mikuni parts.

You should be OK with using the OE needles in the Yambits seats but if it were me, I'd refit the originals and chalk the Yambits buy down to experience.

One of my favourite sayings ... "Experience is what acquire get just after you needed it".

Depressing but true.

I’ll have another try tomorrow.

I was reading the Yamaha workshop manual (better than the bloody Antiques Roadshow!) and came across the way they recommend checking the float height. I’ll stick with the method on Pats website but interesting none the less.

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #42 on:** 28 October 2019, 06:39:17 am »

The measuring technique, ie with the end of a vernier gauge, is fine. It's the illustration that's misleading as it suggests you can do this with the carbs horizontal. To get the float to rest on the valve without depressing the spring-loaded pin requires the carbs to be tilted.

Rotate the carb bank so that the floats fall away completely from the valve, then slowly turn the carbs back until the float tangs just touch the pin. Go a few degrees further and you'll see the pin compress. Now, turn the carbs back the other way until just touching again and that's where you take the measurement. Takes a bit of practice so do this several times before making any adjustment to the float tang.

It only takes a very slight change in the angle of the float tang to achieve 14mm float height. About 0.5mm deflection or very close. If you have to bend the tang more than that, it's a good bet that you're not measuring with the float in the correct position.

The steel tang is quite springy which makes it tricky to get the correct amount of bend because the tang deflects back again. Often it works out easier to over-bend the tang and then ease it back up to where you want it.

NitramA · « **Reply #43 on:** 03 November 2019, 04:49:01 pm »

I got a day pass yesterday for being a good boy so spent some quality time on the bike.
After much messing around with a vernier gauge I just couldn’t get repeatable measurements, so in the end bought a float height tool from flea bay for £15 which helped a lot.
So kit fitted, carbs back on, temporary fuel tank set up, Choke on, pressed the starter and up she comes!!!

Couldn’t quite believe it.
Still have to balance the carbs and set up the throttle sensor but everything seems to be working as it should.
Just to prove I can still be a muppet, despite my best efforts I managed to mix up the float bowls for cylinders 1&4.
So now I’ve got the custom look with both outside carb drain plugs being inboard. Not that I’m too bothered.

Really happy I’ve got this far and thanks again to Mike and Paul for their support through this.
I’ll be better at it next time....

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #44 on:** 04 November 2019, 06:02:06 pm »

Well done, looking forward now to a positive road test report.

ogri48 · « **Reply #45 on:** 08 November 2019, 08:36:11 pm »

nicely done feller!!! it'll all be worth it. Christ you went to town on them carbs mate, glad its all sorted. And I still make muppet mistakes all the time...more so as I'm getting older.

NitramA · « **Reply #46 on:** 09 November 2019, 06:41:15 pm »

When I removed the inlet blanking rubbers to balance the carbs the stub came out of the inlet manifold!
Looks like it’s was originally glued in so I assume it’s ok to put some araldite on it?
Balanced the carbs and set up the TPS anyway.
Shame it’s still bloody raining or I’d have been out for a pootle.
Definitely better, and even the choke seems to have an effect.

ogri48 · « **Reply #47 on:** 09 November 2019, 08:12:52 pm »

Quote from: NitramA on 09 November 2019, 06:41:15 pm

When I removed the inlet blanking rubbers to balance the carbs the stub came out of the inlet manifold!
Looks like it’s was originally glued in so I assume it’s ok to put some araldite on it?
Balanced the carbs and set up the TPS anyway.
Shame it’s still bloody raining or I’d have been out for a pootle.
Definitely better, and even the choke seems to have an effect.

old bikes are such fun aren't they

hopefully its all sort4d now. Talking of muppet mistakes...my bro in laws xjr1300 had just that little bit more than mine off the line, I tried everything, including stripping the carbs and cleaning them thoroughly (twice), new inlet rubbers (36ys...the unrestricted fjr jobbies) new plugs, new airfilter, 4 degree ignition advancer. Only after doing all that did I think 'oh hang on...I wonder...' checked his gearbox sprocket and it was a 17t. mine was the stock 18. they both run identically now...

. all these years having bikes (passed me test in 77) and I still dont think to check the simple stuff first...
good luck with the bike buddy

NitramA · « **Reply #48 on:** 23 March 2020, 02:45:50 pm »

Finally got round to riding the bloody thing (I’ve always been a bit slow!)
In my defence as well as the carbs being stripped and Ivanised, I’ve started at one end of the bike and serviced just about everything.

So it was with some trepidation I thought I’d better ride it before we’re all locked in.

First impressions were good; the fuel was a bit stale so whilst the choke worked (that’s a first) it was a bit fluffy low down until it warmed up.

Taking it easy for a couple of miles until the engine was warm, I then wound on the throttle in third (I think!) Jeezuz it took off like the proverbial cat. I got to 10k just hanging on. I had a quick look at the speedo and it did seem to be an awful long way round.
It was also still pulling....

I’ve been trundling around in a car for some time so I’m willing to believe I‘m a bit rusty when it comes to power, but the real revelation to me was the mid range pick up off a closed throttle. Before I’d really struggled on roundabouts with the trailing throttle to light throttle transition being really jerky. Not any more. Loverly!!
Ive just spent the rest of the time accelerating from 30 to 70 in out local lanes, just because if feels so responsive.
I think I feel less vibes too.

I did have a hankering for an OM10, but Whilst I’m sure it’s a fantastic bike I don’t think it’s worth the (at least) £8k extra it will cost me considering the mileage I cover.
Not that logic has ever stopped me from buying a bike if a fancy it

NitramA · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 March 2020, 04:15:46 pm »

OM10. Wtf!! Clearly my brain is more mush than I thought.
Fz10 of course, or maybe I really meant OW01,which would cost me considerable more than £8k