Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Steve3351 on 07 June 2019, 10:27:42 pm
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Hi Foccing electrical experts
my sidestand switch never worked...and i've often taken off with it down, without any major mishaps ...yet.
I decided to have a look at it...switch itself looks OK, When I checked the (blue) connector under the seat I'm getting 0.6 volts....is this normal...?
ERK,,,, just realised that the two wires to the switch are not (+) and (-),,,must check them again...tomoro,,,using battery earth :rolleyes
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The sidestand switch could be bypassed. A lot of people bypass them when they start to give trouble because it's difficult to get the old one out. It's just a switch with two positions either open or closed. Bypassing it by joining the two wires together or by pushing a jumper wire into the connector is the same as the switch being permanently closed. When the stand is up the switch is closed, when the stand is down it's open. You can test it with a continuity test (the beeeeeep one). Follow the wires off the back of the sidestand. You should find a connector where it joins to the loom. Push your test probes into the connector, set the meter to continuity test. It should beeeeep with the stand up and not beeeeeep with the stand down. If it beeeeeeps all the time no matter whether the stand is up or down it must be bypassed. You could also test it by putting the meter to DC volts. Put the red lead on battery+, put the black lead on the blue/black wire (the switched ground). You should see 12V with the stand up and 0V with the stand down. If you see 12V all the time it would suggest the switch is bypassed. http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=5 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=5) That's the diagram where I got the blue/black wire from. I think that's the correct colour for your 2002 bike
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You're not wrong about it being difficult to remove, it's certainly doable with the right tools and know how, but to the average person it's almost like they started with the switch then built the bike around it!
Mine's been bypassed.
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Some one posted this a while ago,
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=66 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=66)
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I had occasional starting troubles for quite a long time, and bypassing the switch was one of the things that i did, but ever since i drenched my ignition switch (where you put the key in) with contact cleaner the bike now starts on the button first time every time and never plays up any more at all.
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Hi
Thanks for informations...
I checked the switch with Ohm meter and its working correctly...
I'm only getting 4.8 volts at the two wires feeding into the switch..and the bike starts up and drives off whether the sidestand is up or down... :\
is the voltage stepped down and connected to a relay...or is there summat fishy here...?
OR hold on...is the Ground switched...not the (+)...?
OK so yes the (-) is switched, not the(+).....so the switch is working but it just doesn't do anything...?!
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You should be getting 0V or very near 0V across any switch when it's closed no matter whether it's on a positive wire or a ground wire.
When you measure Voltage you're measuring the difference between the two points. If you put the two probes into the switch connector and put the meter on DC voltage you should see 0V or very near 0V with the switch closed. Think about what a switch is. It's just like a break in a wire. When it's closed it's as if there is no break so it's just one continuous wire so there should be no difference along a continuous wire as long as there's no unwanted resistance in the wire or in the switch, so the meter should show 0V when the switch is closed.
The switch is just providing a path to ground when it's closed. Ground is just the negative side of the battery. There's nothing fancy about it. You should see no voltage across it when it's closed unless you connect the red lead of the meter to a point that's at a higher Voltage, like the battery+, and put the black lead into the switched ground(black/blue wire), then you should see 12V when the switch is closed.
What I'd do is make sure you're on the correct connector. Then do the continuity test. The meter should beep with the stand up and not beep with it down.
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Thanks Dude
I did the continuity test and the switch is working.
on the supply side one wire gives me 12v, the other nothing, so when the switch is closed both would read 12v...
so all seem OK, just that the bike starts up and runs regardless of whether the sidestand is up or down :(
Of course I'm getting 12volts because I'm using the positive terminal of the battery, and connecting the black probe of the meter to the feed to the switch. One side 12v, the other 0v...so when the switch is closed both will be the same....?
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So if I understand correctly you put the red lead of the meter to battery+ and black lead to both sides of the switch connector? On one side of the connector the meter showed 12V all the time and on the other side it showed 0V and then 12V when the stand was up. Is that right? That seems like the switch is working correctly. The switch could be working but if the wires are joined together somewhere before the switch it doesn't matter if the switch is open or closed because the wires are already joined together.
You're not feeding power to the switch with the meter. The switch doesn't need power. It's just joining two sides of the same wire together or breaking it. What you're doing with the meter is measuring the difference in Voltage between the two points. The two points you picked where battery + and the switch. The switch is a connection battery negative when it's closed so that's why you see 12V on the meter when it's closed and the stand is up. You're basically measuring voltage between battery positive and negative.
I think you're thinking about the two wires as if the switch is a load like a light bulb, where one wire is positive and the other is negative. It's not a load, it's not doing any work, it's just a switch. The two wires going to it are basically the same wire in a loop with a switch in the loop. I think the switch is working but the wires are joined together somewhere
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Yes i understand wot u explained...I tested the switch with the Ohm meter on the switch side of the connector..working.
I tested the voltage on the other side of the connector..one side runs to earth, the other dosn't...so with the switch closed both run to earth..as intended, presumably...if u see wot I mean...
it seems like the switch is working and is opening / closing an earth circuit...but nothing is happening..!
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If the switch has no effect the two wires going to the switch must be connected together or the contacts in the switch must be connected together and aren't moving. You could try unplugging the switch from the loom and see if the bike cuts out when you put it in gear. It should since unplugging it is the same as the stand being down. If it doesn't cut out then the wires must be joined in the main loom
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A starnge one as the Ignitor (ECU) requires that earth to operate which means it has to be getting an earth from somewhere.
It sounds like a short circuit to earth in the loom. There has been reports of the loom fraying under the seat on the route to the Ignitor under the tail fairing
The earth from the sidestand switch after leaving the sidestand switch goes through the Ignition switch, the one of the looped plugs under the seat and then to the Ignitor.
Lift the seat and locate the two looped plugs the earth from the sidestand switch goes through one of those loops.
Ensure the ignition is off and sidestand up, put you meter to the continuty (OHM) scale. Disconnet the connectors (one at the time) and check for and earth on the plugs, if you find an earth on one, put the sidestand down and see if it disappears. This means the earth from the switch is getting this far.
Let me know the result
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Could also be that someone has removed an alarm in the past and joined the one of the black wires under the seat to ground so the ignitor is getting a permanent ground
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Thanks for the tips...am away for a couple of days but will get onto this when i get back :z
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Another thing that could cause the side stand to have no effect would be if the neutral switch was short to ground. The ignitor would be getting the ground it needs all the time so the side stand would have no effect but if that was happening you would expect to see the neutral indicator light on all the time even when the bike was in gear.
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the neutral light behaves normally. ...so i don't think the problem is there..
when i get a chance i'm going to follow Unfazed's route to the igniter...wotever that is...I'm at the limit...of my electrical know how :fish
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quickly skim read while having a few beers and bloody hell it doesnt read well
first - stop testing voltages on a switch, you need to test continuity that is what matters (on switch testing anyhow)
set your voltage tester to the little symbol that probably looks like a speaker and it beeps when you touch your two probes together
pull the plug from the side switch to main loom and put a probe on each wire switch side (pulling the plugs seperate any false connectivity elsewhere)
press/depress the switch a few times and you should get a beep beep beep (cant remember the config on sidestand)
my guess is the beep will be continuous and the switch needs a good spray with contact cleaner when pressed in or stripped down and cleaned if possible, if its beep beep beep then the switch is fine
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Er yes...have moved on past the switch issue....seems to be a problem up the line :b
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This for UNFAZED...
the switch is definitely working. The two wires from the connector (black and blue/yellow) disappear into the loom.
I see under the seat someone has opened the loom, there is a lump of taped off wiring...and two red/blue wires going to a 10amp fuse labelled PARK.
I,m inclined to leave all as is...sidestand switch not operating is not too important,,,, :(
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That's the circuit for when you turn the key to park. It has nothing to do with the problem. You're looking for two connectors together, under the seat with only black wires going to them. They are the connectors for the alarm.
When you started the thread I'm sure it said you had a 2002 bike under your name. Now it says 00-01. That's a different wiring diagram http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=4 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=4)
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ER yes...the bike is registered 2002 but its a 5DMC 070C... the 2001 model I think...I,m not going any further with the sidestand switch issue... too complicated for me.
Just fer the craic...this is wot i am looking at....the blue connector is the sidestand switch earth circuit... :evil
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This for UNFAZED...
the switch is definitely working. The two wires from the connector (black and blue/yellow) disappear into the loom.
I see under the seat someone has opened the loom, there is a lump of taped off wiring...and two red/blue wires going to a 10amp fuse labelled PARK.
I,m inclined to leave all as is...sidestand switch not operating is not too important,,,, :(
Therein lies your problem, looks like someone disconnected an alarm and taped up all the wires, but earthed the side stand switch wire.
Untape the wires and see how good the connections are inside. Post a picture, it is not the most difficult thing in the world to check the wiring if you can use a meter to check for continunity.
You only need to leave the sidestand down once :eek :'(
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OK thanks...will post pic tomoro :\
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Hi...this is wots wrapped up under the seat.......!!! :eek
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ACTUALLY...
when i untangled the nest of wires, it's just seven blank wires. six black and one black/red....so i have tidied up.
I don't thik this can have any bearing on sidestand switch issue.....?
:\
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Which ones were joined together?
Were the red/black and a black together as a pair of wires, if so it sounds like it had a meta alarm fitted and this pair of wire went to the Alarm active LED
The Black on the Side stand switch goes to a permanent earth and the light blue yellow goes to the Clutch switch and the ignition switch. when you turn on the ignition this earth is extended to the Ignitor.Check if one of the wires in you connector has an earth when the ignition is switch on and goes off when the ignition is switched off.
Set you meter to check for DC volts. Connect the red lead of the meter to the Battery positive, and check each wire in turn, when you get an earth you will get 12 volts. This is a permanent earth and mark it as so.
With the meter red lead still connected to the battery ,Turn the ignition one. Check the rest of the wire for and earth, when you find one hold it one and turn off the ignition switch if the meter goes to zero you have found the side stand extended earth.
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Thanks UNFAZED....but i don't think any of the wires were joined together...they were all blank..ie. went nowhere.
I will try the procedure u suggest all the same...... ;)
and report back
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Most likely when the alarm was being removed they connected the wire that normally goes to the side stand earth to a permanent earth to get it to run.
There must be two sets of two wires connected further in to the loom as you do not have all the wires for the alarm exposed.
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I will dig a bit further into the loom...but in which direction....? 8)
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Follow the wires you have exposed at present
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OK when i dig i find a red/black and a black one not connected to loom...so discard.
Am left with six wires.....five blanked off and one connected into loom....
checked for live and earth and here's the result....make any sense...?
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PS...Previous pic with sidestand down...this one with sidestand up... :\
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I'm presuming L is live (12v) and E is earth???
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Yes....and it looks like it makes no difference if sidestand is up or down.....?
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I presume the blue plug under the side cover was connected :D The black wires with the yellow marks are the standard loom wires.
On the black plug socket in you pics there is a an NR number on the wire what is the number and are there any other NR numbers on the wires or a colour band?
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Yes the blue connector is plugged in...the black connector is actually a 15a fuse...one of the wires going to it is marked 6NR...the other wire didn't go anywhere so i cut it out. All the black wires have similar yellow bands but no numbers or other markings...
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So i check to see if i have continuity between the black side of the sidestand (blue) connector and any of the black wire i have exposed...and indeed i do...on Nos. 5 & 6....confusing....??? :(
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Yes the blue connector is plugged in...the black connector is actually a 15a fuse...one of the wires going to it is marked 6NR...the other wire didn't go anywhere so i cut it out. All the black wires have similar yellow bands but no numbers or other markings...
That wire on a meta alarm is never connected on the Fazer as it is for Magneto ignition type bikes, which the Fazer most definitely is not.
So i check to see if i have continuity between the black side of the sidestand (blue) connector and any of the black wire i have exposed...and indeed i do...on Nos. 5 & 6....confusing....??? :(
That would be correct as the black wire in the side stand blue connector goes directly to a permanent earth in the loom
You will need to delve further into the loom to find the extra connections
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HHHhhmmmm.....
I cut back a bit more into the loom but I don't see any connections...I'm now into the original loom so I assume that it's all as originally made up.
Where i got the six black loose wire the loom had obviously been opened...my 1 - 5 black wires just come out and are cut off, the sixth is a spur from a wire running to the back of the bike...I'm rightly confused now... :fish
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Can you put up a picture of the wire spur?
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U can see it on previous pic...6 wires.jpg....
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Check the wire for earth or 12v, ignition on and off. Then do the same turning the indicators on and off.Just checked you pic and that is the permanent earth.
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Yes...any suggestions as to how to proceed...or have u had enuf ...???!!!! ;)
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;)
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At the risk of confusing him more can I throw my tuppence worth in? :lol I think this is right but tell me if I’m wrong. There should be 9 black wires but he only needs to identify four of them to make the bike run? He needs the ground from the side stand, and that joins back to the Ignitor. And he needs the ground when the starter switch is pressed, and that joins to the cut-off relay. That’s all he needs.
With a continuity test. If he turns the ignition ON, he puts one probe of his meter in the side stand Blue/Yellow, then touches the other probe off each loose black wire. When the meter beeps turn the ignition off, if the beeping stops when the ignition is off that loose black wire is the switched ground from the side stand. If the beeping continues it’s the permanent ground so repeat the test until you find the black wire where the beeping stops when you turn the ignition off.
That side stand ground connects to a black wire in the 8 pin connector going to the Ignitor, so if he takes the 8 pin connector out of the Ignitor, touches a test probe to the pin with the black wire, touches the other test probe to the loose black wires, when the meter beeps that’s the wire going to the Ignitor. He should join the two loose black wires that he just identified together (side stand ground and black going to Ignitor).
The other two wires that he needs to join together are the ground from the starter switch and a black wire going to the cut-off relay. If he connects a probe to the blue/white wire coming from the starter switch and connects the other probe to the loose black wires one loose black wire should beep. That’s the switched ground from the starter switch.
Next connect a test probe to the black wire at the cut –off relay and the other probe to the loose black wires, one of them should beep. Join the two loose black wires that you identified together. (Ground from the starter switch and the black wire going to the cut-off relay)
That should be all he needs to join. The rest don't effect the bike starting or running. (I think :lol )
I was looking at the wiring diagram in that manual [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=4[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=4[/url])
Yes and no, You are correct in saying only 4 wires are used by the alarm imobiliser section. however we only need to find two wires, since starter operates there is no need to worry about it which rules out 2 of the 4..
The pair of wires we need are the the pair connected for the Ignitor earth.
Unfortunately the Ignitor has 2 earths one permanent and one via the side stand.
The issue really is that the wire from the sidestand switch goes through the Ignition switch and from there back to the Ignitor as a black wire. (via the loop plug which in this case has been removed)
This make is more difficult if someone is not to familiar with using a meter as they risk the possibility of damaging the ignitor.
Hence the reason for asking to check for the earths with a voltmeter.The other problem is the earth wires and the Yamaha loom alarm wires are the same colour. Black with a yellowish dot at intervals
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Yes...any suggestions as to how to proceed...or have u had enuf ...???!!!! ;)
Your spare time and necessity to use the bike is what is important because we can if you are willing dismantle the loom further as you need to check if there are any further signs of the loom being interfered with from under the seat to under the left Side panel below the large starter cut out relay box.
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Hi DUDE...thanks for yer imput...as u see UNFAZED has been attempting to talk me through the process of tracking down this sidestand switch issue....I'm going to have another look at it tomoro...if UNFAZED will be kind enuf to give me instructions.....I'm happy enuf about using the multimeter....thanks to u both for the help :angel
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missed the last message....there is no sign of any further interference with the wiring in the loom behind the blue connector, all looks tightly taped up as original...will post a pic tomoro...thanks again :z
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Looks so much easier on tv when they're trying to disconnect a bomb :lol
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Hi UNFAZED,,, DUDE thanks for yer time and input....this is getting too complicated...the bike is running and ive never had the sidestand switch working...
I do see some suspicious black wire going to what I assume is the cut off relay,,, i will post a pic later when i have a chance to see where that wire comes from....!!!
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:eek :lol
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HI again
here is a pic showing where the wiring to the cut off relay (i assume) has ben altered...make any sense...??? :book
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I printed out DUDE'S instructions...even on paper they are pretty confusing...
Has he been INGESTING some MIND ALTERING substance......??? :look
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Dude was out in the pub when he wrote it :lol :lol
What he said make s sense but since you have not seen an unmolested wiring system it would be confusing. :eek
Yes that box is the starter cut out relay, looks like the wire was too short to rejoin and they ran a new one back to the Start button connector block in the box under the tank. What you need to do is unravel the tape around the loom under the seat more to find another cut wire which will be the side stand switch wire.
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ER,,,...but I'm getting continuity between the sidestand switch
wire (the black at the connector) and TWO of the loose wire already...? no 5 and no. 6 :\
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Does continunity to earth change when you operate the sidestand with the ignition on
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Er...not sure wot u mean...but if u look at my pics in posts 83 and 84 u will see that turning ignition on/off changes my six loose wires from 2 earths and one live to two lives and one earth, regardless of whether sidestand is up or down
I appreciate all ur help on this issue....If u want to pack it in no probs....!!! 8)
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I was a bit cryptic, :eek because the continuity didn't change you have not found the side stand wire.
Just unravel the tape around the loom under the seat part and spread out the wires a bit more back and front and see if you can find a cut wire or wires spliced
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Hi...thanks again but I,m going to call it a day on this...I managed without the sidestand switch up till now...!
I don't want to cut into the loom any further...it's difficult to get at. A bit frustrating having these little niggles not sorted :o
BUT ANYWAY...my PASS switch isn't working...do u think I shud crack open the handlebar cluster...or just leave well alone....??
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Ok, no problem, if you are ever over this direction we can sort it :lol :lol
Was it working and stopped suddenly or has it ever worked?
If it stopped suddenly it is most likely corrosion within the switch.
Easy enough to remove and take apart and clean the contacts, but be aware there are some very small screws, little springs and contacts in there which can fall out and roll/fly to places you never knew existed. :lol Choke cable can be a bit fiddly to put back.
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I printed out DUDE'S instructions...even on paper they are pretty confusing...
Has he been INGESTING some MIND ALTERING substance......??? :look
I got a good laugh out of that :rollin Someone did a proper hack job on that loom! If you want everything back to original you could always take the cowards way out and buy a used loom off ebay. It would be plug and play as long as all the factory connectors are intact, no head scratching required. They're fairly cheap too. Just make sure it's the correct loom
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Should I take that previous post down since it describes how to bypass the alarm? :lol