Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial

General => General => Topic started by: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 07:40:37 pm

Title: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 07:40:37 pm
OK Foccers, we all want to go in deeper and come out harder...but how do u know when ur at or near the limit...?
Do u just keep pushing it until u slide off...or is there some warning signs, skipping/slipping.... :evil ????
am assuming a dry road and good tyres... :D
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 14 June 2019, 07:51:00 pm
The hero blob on yer foot peg is usually (at least it should be) the first thing to go down.
Or if you are riding a C90, the leg shield touches first, and if you don't back off the solid foot peg goes down often followed a split second later by you. :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 07:57:11 pm
Thanks for that very scientific analysis VNA.... :lol  I suppose that's a guide anyway...!!
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: BBROWN1664 on 14 June 2019, 08:23:35 pm
:agree VNA

Another way to check is to look at the chicken strips on your tyres. If they are wider than a couple of mm, you can try harder.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 09:15:06 pm
Chicken Strips...??!! u mean the strip of virgin rubber between the shoulder and the main tread surface....?
mine are way too wide....... :\
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: mickvp on 14 June 2019, 09:35:08 pm
Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more 😂
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 14 June 2019, 09:40:05 pm
 Yup that sounds like them.  I don’t have any on the rear.


One key thing to going round corners, in my humble opinion, is to understand how the bike goes round a corner.  You need to use the bars to control the bike.   Ie counter steer.


If you ain’t already doing this then google counter steering motorcycle and start reading and watching.  If I am trying to tell you how to suck eggs – then I apologise. :D
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 10:57:51 pm
yes well...I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...I have been trying trail braking, I think it helps the bike turn, rather than just slowing down on approach and off the brakes before turning.... 8)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Frosties on 15 June 2019, 12:31:25 am
yes well...I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...I have been trying trail braking, I think it helps the bike turn, rather than just slowing down on approach and off the brakes before turning.... 8)
Trail braking will help the bike turn (loads the front) but a balanced throttle and counter steer will help you more.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 15 June 2019, 12:32:21 am
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...


It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".

Quote
whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...


Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea.

Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.

Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.

Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf (http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 15 June 2019, 01:23:06 am
 
Quote
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
It is, in that people are taught to lean into a corner.  By leaning to the left, you push on the left bar, pushing the front wheel to the right, which makes the bike go left.  So it’s not leaning that turns the bike but the pressure you apply to the bar by leaning.


It’s not until you understand it and practise it that it becomes instinctive, and for the first time become absolutely in control of the direction of your bike.


The only way a bike will change direction is by counter steering, and it’s all in your hands.


Trail braking with the front brake requires a firmer input at the bars as the front brake will make the bike want to sit up.  As Grahamm says care is required with trail braking – that why you see racers washing out the front now and again. 
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 June 2019, 07:33:14 am
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: darrsi on 15 June 2019, 07:42:42 am
The majority of bikers will do counter steering as an immediate reaction to doing the complete opposite to begin with.
As in, i want to go more left so i turn the bars left, then suddenly realize that didn't quite work out so you intuitively move the bars the other way which suddenly gives the desired results.
But if you don't understand the physics behind it then you would always naturally nudge the bars either way until you get where you want to go.


As for chicken strips, don't ever judge me by looking at my tyres, as my bike is for the majority part a commuter bike, so the thought of leaning it over at 10-20mph in London traffic, going to and from work, just to get rid of them like some sort of neanderthal dick comparison contest doesn't really do it for me. All i'm interested in is getting there and back in one piece.  :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: darrsi on 15 June 2019, 07:46:27 am
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Think speedway riders, that's the easiest example.
Going left around the track, but turning right. And the more right they turn the more the bike drops down making the turn sharper.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Flooky on 15 June 2019, 07:56:03 am

I would go to a track day, or get a track tuition session, great fun and better than trying this stuff on the road.
The only way to feel the limit in relative safety.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 June 2019, 07:56:58 am

So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Think speedway riders, that's the easiest example.
Going left around the track, but turning right. And the more right they turn the more the bike drops down making the turn sharper.


I'd always assumed that was just them because they were sliding on that shale stuff :rolleyes
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Frosties on 15 June 2019, 08:02:34 am
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


If you're going round a left hand bend and look down at your bars then yup they will be angled to the right.........at the same same as you've realised you've ploughed the hedges on the opposite side of the road and binned it  :lol :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 June 2019, 08:21:03 am
 :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 15 June 2019, 08:23:15 am

Watched a You Tube tutorial and it just looks like steering around corners to me.


I must be already doing it :)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Frosties on 15 June 2019, 09:46:59 am
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Try riding in a straight line at about 30-40mph in the center of the road.....then just nudge the left bar forwards quickly and release, a bit like nudging a door open. The bike will quickly move to the left about 1.5 feet and return to a straight line. If you nudge the right bar forwards then likewise the bike will quickly move to the right.


Remember....JUST A NUDGE. The longer you nudge each side forward the further you will travel across the road.


Once you get the hang of it it's very useful for avoiding potholes, cats etc and then start trying it when cornering. Slowly, slowly fella.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: darrsi on 15 June 2019, 10:09:29 am
Another age old trick is if you're overcooking a bend at speed, or even simply going round a tight mini roundabout, look where you mean to go with your eyes beforehand and your bike will miraculously do whatever it needs to to get there.
On a mini roundabout for example if you literally turn your head to where you want to go, like i do on the way to work where i'm technically doing a U-turn due to a no right turn road, i find that the bike gets lower and i can really turn around in a smaller area because i'm looking back to where i'm aiming for, and there seems very little effort involved.
Whereas if i just navigate the roundabout by looking in front of me i've found that the bike takes a wider course, and in a more upright manner.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: BBROWN1664 on 15 June 2019, 11:18:23 am
opening up the throttle mid bend will make you go wide.
closing the throttle mid bend will tighten up the turn for you.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 15 June 2019, 11:51:57 am
 
Quote
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

Umm no.
Quote
If you're going round a left hand bend and look down at your bars then yup they will be angled to the right.........at the same same as you've realised you've ploughed the hedges on the opposite side of the road and binned it  :lol :lol

Umm yes. :eek
 
 
Quote
As for chicken strips, don't ever judge me by looking at my tyres, as my bike is for the majority part a commuter bike, so the thought of leaning it over at 10-20mph in London traffic, going to and from work, just to get rid of them like some sort of neanderthal dick comparison contest doesn't really do it for me. All i'm interested in is getting there and back in one piece.  :lol

Absolutely.  My short commute has a number of opportunities for a bit of lean.  Also I guess, for those obsessed with chicken strips probably the tyres fitted will make a difference.  My sensible PR3’s don’t have a particularly aggressive profile so maybe I am more likely to use the full width of the tyre.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Frosties on 15 June 2019, 12:31:20 pm
Quote
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
It is, in that people are taught to lean into a corner.  By leaning to the left, you push on the left bar, pushing the front wheel to the right, which makes the bike go left.  So it’s not leaning that turns the bike but the pressure you apply to the bar by leaning.


Quote
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

Umm no.


The answer is YES, the bars will be slightly angled to the right.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: unfazed on 15 June 2019, 12:39:18 pm
The opening the throttle and running wide can be dial almost completely by setting the suspension properly, usually happens because the rear squats and the forks return too quick changing the geometry and the bike goes wide.
Shutting the throttle loads the front but can unsettle the bike which is why a balanced throttle in the correct gear is less unsettling.

The 600 in standard guise was no way near as bad as the 1000 in standard guise for for running wide out of the bends if you power on the throttle

I presently run a Hagon rear shock with an uprated spring (Standard Hagon Spring was too soft) and Hypro progressive front springs with 15w oil. (I use progressive instead of linear because I do a lot of two up touring) The 15W oil in the 600 slows the rebound preventing the sudden unloading of the front and keeping it in line.

Took me quite a while to get it sorted on the 1000 because I was running standard front forks.
Considered changing the front end but when I finally got it working I kept the standard front end.
I have a S1000RR rear and Wilber progressive front again and 10W oil (Progressive because I tour two up on it also).

As some Foccers have stated previously the Hero Blobs at the end of the footrest are your guide.
Thankfully they fold and not dig in like the bikes I started riding back in the 70s. Scary foccing things,  solid footrests, no damping and ABS brakes (Anything But Stop) :lol :lol
Mostly it is about confidence in dropping the bike and believing it wont slide, but this also means reading the road conditions correctly.Being in the correct gear for the bend is also important and riding on the throttle through it this prevents the suspension loading on the brakes and unloading off the brakes and accelerating.Trail braking is useful but not really necessary if you are in the right gear for the bend.
Good practice for using the gear box is to use a good road with fast and slow bends you are familiar with and try riding it without using the brakes, just the gears for slowing down and balance the throttle riding through them. You will find  at the start dropping to low in the gears but it is all practice. It forces you to read the road and the vanishing point better. You will find you riding becoming smoother and quicker as your reading of the road improves. 
Most of us have a limit as to how far we feel safe to bank over and when we go in too quick we have a margin of error to allow us to bank over. unfortunately the inexperienced focus on the point they don't want to hit grab a handful of brake and go straight on to it. The experienced will trail brake gently bank over further and look at where we want to go.
One of the most difficult things to over come on track days is this margin of error, mostly because it take us out of our comfort zone.
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 15 June 2019, 01:01:45 pm
 
Quote
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek

That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide.  Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
 
Counter steering is instinctive in that the only way a bike can turn at speeds above a crawl is to counter steer.  But of you are steering by leaning, ie counter steering without understanding what is happening then you may not be fully in control of the direction of travel of your motorcycle.


And nor do you need to lean to complete a turn, cos it not leaning that makes the bike turn.


For example, lots of people won’t ride their bikes on moderately windy days , as they get blown all over the place, it scares them silly, and they don’t know what to do about it.  Obviously you keep the bike in a straight line on a windy day by the pressure you apply to the bars – counter steering.


I’m with Frosties. :eek :eek :eek   If you are scratching your head wondering about counter steering, is it instinctive  or not, are you deploying it to change direction quickly etc etc.
Then try the 30-40mph straight line thing.  Just play with it a bit.  Then think and feel it in corners, notice how you can change your line in a corner effortlessly with a pull or push on the bars.


I think it’s only once you have consciously practised it, experimented and understood it, that it can then become truly instinctive.  And a game changer.

 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 15 June 2019, 01:09:29 pm
HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lol
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip.... :D
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 15 June 2019, 01:43:17 pm
Quote
yes we all countersteer.
But do you go round a corner by controlled input on the bars, or leaning over hoping the bike will go round the corner.
There's a world of difference.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 15 June 2019, 01:52:23 pm
Both...? u have to lean... :\
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 15 June 2019, 02:44:03 pm
A FOCCER surruptitiously SCUFFING his boots......!!!!! :eek
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 15 June 2019, 03:18:23 pm
Quote
Both...? u have to lean... ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/undecided.gif[/url])

Leaning is optional.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 15 June 2019, 03:32:01 pm
What hits the ground first depends also on the camber of that part of the road. for me its equally my toes / hero blobs. Or sometimes neither and the rear wheel will let loose a little - just a little skip, but that could of quite easily been as I go over a slippy join in the road.
 The thing with looking at chicken strips - unless they are 1 inch wide is that some manufactures tyre profiles for different bikes you will never completely get rid of chicken strips or the front may be 5 mm and the back 15 - or visa versa.

Find a quiet round about with good visibility so you can see if anything is coming and practice heading for it going round it a few times and turning left off it. I used to have two great ones near me within 1/2 mile of each other and could go from one to the other but one was built next to and became too busy.
A few years ago I read about this counterstearing thing and went to test and it was like "oh that" I was doing it all the time and I didn't know it was a "thing" and had a name.         
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: unfazed on 15 June 2019, 03:40:30 pm
If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its side
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: ogri48 on 15 June 2019, 05:48:13 pm
who was the old school yank racer (schwantz I think) who when asked how he cornered hard said" I just go in faster and faster every time until I see God...then I back off... :)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: unfazed on 15 June 2019, 06:01:58 pm
Quote
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek

That’s serious counter steering in order to correct a rear slide.  Or perhaps he’s intentionally ‘rear wheel steering’.
 
It was in at BSB race practice and he was rear wheel steering. See the black line, tyre spinning,  Flipping great to watch, awesome control and confidence.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: unfazed on 15 June 2019, 06:11:02 pm
HA HA...!! :lol :rollin :lol
Lots of advice....... but I,m not much the wiser...yes we all countersteer...I want to corner harder and faster..without sliding off or running wide.....I think we can all agree that heads up and looking where ur going is a good tip.... :D
I'm sticking with TRAIL BRAKING....I find it helps steady the bike and shorten the wheelbase into a turn...I'm talking about normal to hard riding....not extreme race level....!!!
Use the gearbox, right gear and throttle on a little  :thumbup

Do you mean fast cornering when you say hard riding.
Never been lost by a sports bike on my 600 yet except on long straights where I wouldn't have the top speed.
I remember a rider behind me on a run a few years ago, asking if I ever use my brakes, I said yes when riding fast to which he replied "What the Focc do you call what we were doing."  :eek
Try riding without using the brakes something, you will have fun  :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 15 June 2019, 06:59:58 pm
If your engine bars touch down first then they are too low and what I would considere dangerous. They should be the last to tpuch down before it goes on its side
 

As I said it depends on the camber of the road and the nature of the bend on a hill for example. I said equally but my toes are usually the first to catch then hero blobs.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 15 June 2019, 09:43:31 pm
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

No.

To initiate a left turn, you push on the left handlebar.

The wheel is rotating forwards and its momentum wants to keep it going in the same direction, but when you push on the handlebar, the gyroscopic effect causes it to "twist" to the left, this is transmitted through the forks to the rest of the bike, making it lean over.

Because the tyres have a round profile, the side on the inside of the turn is shorter than that on the outside of the turn, this causes the bike to turn to the left (if you put a plastic vending machine cup on its side and give it a push, it will roll in an arc for the same reason) *

So once the bike is leant over, it will tend to travel in a curve and it will keep travelling in the same curve provided nothing else changes.

If you push more to the left, the bike will lean in further. If you increase the power, the bike will straighten up and you'd need to countersteer and lean more to keep the bike turning on the same arc.

If you apply the front brake, the bike will want to sit up because its momentum is trying to go forward, but there's a force pushing backwards that is "inside" of the centre of gravity pushing it outwards.

If you throttle off or use the rear brake, it will want to turn in more because this time the force is "behind" the centre of gravity, pulling it inwards.

The thing about countersteering, as mentioned before, is that you do it automatically without realising it, but the trick is to be able to do it consciously in an emergency situation, eg if you overcook a bend and grab a handful of front brake, you're going to go straight on, but if you push on the inside handlebar and look where you want to go, the bike will lean further and you'll be more likely to get away with it!


* This is also why "darksiding" (using car tyres on the rear of a bike) is really stupid, because they don't have the rounded profile. Great if you're on straight American roads with no twisty bits, but pointless if you want to steer through bends!
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 15 June 2019, 10:53:23 pm
That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 16 June 2019, 01:51:22 am
Quote
so Leaning is NOT optional.
There is only one way to make the motorcycle turn.  That is input via yer handlebars.

Leaning is optional.  I can ride to work and back sitting bolt upright if I want.  It ain't natural and really doesn't help.  But it's a fun trick to play with a pillion :lol

But at the end of the day, by leaning you naturally push on the bar end you lean towards.  There is only one way to make the motorcycle change direction.  That is by input to the handlebars.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: noggythenog on 17 June 2019, 10:45:31 am
Something i was tought with 4 wheeled driving is that when cornering you are applying throttle to compensate for the reduction in speed caused by the corner itself.


As you turn the corner there is a natural sap of speed.......same as ships....to slow down they sometimes make a turn.....it uses up energy.....that energy is transferring to your tyres and turning into heat.


So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.


What i find difficult on a bike as opposed to cars is that as i throw myself round a corner i find it difficult to physically hold the throttle at a steady position, especially if theres any bumps mid way round and ive been cought out accudentally throttling on too much by mistake.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 17 June 2019, 11:54:34 am

So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.
I thought that was normal - otherwise you are coasting around a corner which case you are more likely to loose grip.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: noggythenog on 17 June 2019, 04:18:04 pm

So the throttle in a corner is just enoughto replace that speed loss (energy loss) to keep everything neutral and settled, not to accelerate.
I thought that was normal - otherwise you are coasting around a corner which case you are more likely to loose grip.


No dude what i mean is whatever throttle you have on entering the corner needs to be increased slightly whilst going round in order to keep the same speed.


If you kept same throttle from entering as during then you'd slow down due to the corner scrubbing off  some of the energy.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Salty on 17 June 2019, 05:02:14 pm
Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 17 June 2019, 06:34:59 pm
 
Quote
Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.
I think you are wrong on both counts.  The tyre must maintain it’s diameter across it’s width.  If you have a varying diameter depending on where on the tread you are you will have one very weird handling bike.  This is why we don’t like worn tyres, particularly say tyres that have worn down in the centre but still have plenty of meat on the sides.  Why?  Because every time you tip into a corner the wheel is forced to slow and you can feel that as the bike twitches into the turn.  Even worse is a rear worn badly in the centre with a front badly worn on the sides.  The front wheel then speeds up as the rear slows on entering a corner which = evil handling.


 
Ps when I say leaning – I mean the rider leaning.  Yes the bike must lean to make a turn but the rider does not necessarily have to.  The bike is forced into a lean by input at the bars.

 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: His Dudeness on 17 June 2019, 09:05:00 pm
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3fb026d2-d719-4131-977b-6f676dd67b42/d6m2rl0-399720ae-4479-4745-b9cc-b7b30aa3e44d.jpg/v1/fill/w_792,h_1008,q_70,strp/thinking_homer_by_noahsturm_d6m2rl0-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTMwMyIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNmYjAyNmQyLWQ3MTktNDEzMS05NzdiLTZmNjc2ZGQ2N2I0MlwvZDZtMnJsMC0zOTk3MjBhZS00NDc5LTQ3NDUtYjljYy1iN2IzMGFhM2U0NGQuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMjQifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.2uGXE91qhpOZKrYkFORR5KGP7ii8hevSzBw2T-C5qhI)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Flooky on 17 June 2019, 09:07:54 pm
Quote
Also as you lean over, the effective diameter of your wheel is reduced because you are moving from the crown of the tyres to the shoulder of the tread. This means that you would then be travelling at a slower speed than your corner entry speed unless you open the throttle to compensate.
I think you are wrong on both counts.  The tyre must maintain it’s diameter across it’s width.  If you have a varying diameter depending on where on the tread you are you will have one very weird handling bike.  This is why we don’t like worn tyres, particularly say tyres that have worn down in the centre but still have plenty of meat on the sides.  Why?  Because every time you tip into a corner the wheel is forced to slow and you can feel that as the bike twitches into the turn.  Even worse is a rear worn badly in the centre with a front badly worn on the sides.  The front wheel then speeds up as the rear slows on entering a corner which = evil handling.


 
Ps when I say leaning – I mean the rider leaning.  Yes the bike must lean to make a turn but the rider does not necessarily have to.  The bike is forced into a lean by input at the bars.



So the diameter of the tyre is the same at the crown as at the edge VNA ?  you better get back to the Brexit thread ..
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Flooky on 17 June 2019, 09:09:14 pm
Maybe you got a sidecar...or a shit tape measure
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 June 2019, 11:36:39 am
 :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Farmboy81 on 19 June 2019, 11:54:37 am

I think actually the diameter would be the same when leaning? (relative to the ground) If you measure it vertically, then when the tyre is leaning left, the top is the right hand side? Wouldn't that be the same distance as top to bottom when the tyre's upright?

I dunno, I've confused myself now...

Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Flooky on 19 June 2019, 12:14:21 pm

This thread is pants, and misleading for some one who asked a question.
You can steer a bike without bar input (remember the white helmet display team, the fella that climbed a ladder on the back and steered AROUND the arena )...also when you let go of the bars to do up your gloves you can still steer with your foot pressure on the pegs.
Tyre diameter is less at the edge (go round a series of bends at a steady throttle opening in the same gear and the revs will rise and fall as you tip in from upright as the gearing of the bike changes)
And Kevin Scwantz was talking about braking , when asked "when do you brake for a corner " he replied when I see god.
Sorry.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 19 June 2019, 12:16:12 pm
Slowing down on entering a corner has nothing to do with the hypotenuse formula of the gyroscopic effect translated to the coefficient of friction diameter based on the angle of corner entry, its cause you have scared yourself and backed off the throttle - which is why you still have chicken strips  :lol   
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: noggythenog on 19 June 2019, 12:31:53 pm
I'm confused by my own shit now.......it was def mentioned in relation to cars.....and ships do it.........maybe bikes are totally different........forget about contact patch on the road and think more about heat loss during cornering or energy loss.....or do tyres not get hot whilst cornering.....or are they just as hot whilst cornering as they are in a straight line?......think on that foccers, this thread is good i reckon it could end up a good thread of nonsense :lol


Anyway to keep flooky happy.....the answer is you know when the limit is reached when you fall off.....i suppose chicken strips could also be called in the bag strips.....something extra in the bag for when shit goes wrong so that you dont fall off......mmmm....chicken.....in the bag.....chicken in the bag.......so hungry


Always carry a bag of KFC when considering riding near or at the limit.... :b
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 19 June 2019, 12:58:34 pm
You can steer a bike without bar input

Yes, to a small extent, but I wouldn't want to try *cornering* like that!!

Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: YamFazFan on 19 June 2019, 01:12:01 pm


Always carry a bag of KFC when considering riding near or at the limit.... :b


You certainly will be if the grease leaks out of it :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 19 June 2019, 01:25:10 pm
in relation to ships .........maybe bikes are totally different........
By- all-the-gods !!! I think you may be on to something. :rollin
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 19 June 2019, 04:12:06 pm
 Y
Quote
ou can steer a bike without bar input (remember the white helmet display team, the fella that climbed a ladder on the back and steered AROUND the arena )...also when you let go of the bars to do up your gloves you can still steer with your foot pressure on the pegs.

Yes at low speed there are a number of ways of steering the bike, but at speed there is only one way to make the bike turn and that is input to the bars. 
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 19 June 2019, 05:09:32 pm
The “No Countersteering” Myth
https://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-no-countersteering-myth/ (https://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-no-countersteering-myth/)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: robbo on 19 June 2019, 05:40:53 pm
If you follow motorcycle racing MotoGp/WSB, when the director cuts to an onboard camera, you'll hear the revs rise as the bike is cranked over, the gearing has effectively been altered as the bike's on the edge of the tyre. The speed remains the same, but with an increase in engine revs, as the rear wheel diameter has momentarily become smaller.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Flooky on 19 June 2019, 06:00:37 pm

Hold on, I am just saying you can steer a bike without the bars, no one said anything about at speed, VNA said you can go to work without leaning at all...well I would be fukin late for work.. I don't even know where this chicken strip shit comes from, just cos your leaning over far doesn't mean your going fast, I don't worry about mine cos I have a normal size cock, and where ships come into it fuk knows...like I said this thread is pants.
I just think some good advice when a fella asks a question is nice, at the moment he is changing all his suspension, trying to keep upright while making sure his tyres are the same diameter right across and have no shiny bits...
P.s  you can tighten your line if your running wide by trailing the back brake.(its cheaper than ohlins too ).the only good advice was you go where you look.
sorry again
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 19 June 2019, 06:28:48 pm
I just think some good advice when a fella asks a question is nice, at the moment he is changing all his suspension, trying to keep upright while making sure his tyres are the same diameter right across and have no shiny bits...
:lol :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 19 June 2019, 08:34:33 pm
 
Quote
Maybe you got a sidecar...or a shit tape measure
Yeah, I think maybe I go that one wrong. :o   Though doesn’t it stay the same opposite side to opposite side diameter. ;)   I’ve never thought about it before.  I mean what does it matter anyway. :lol


So the wheels will speed up on entering the corner.  I guess the twitch must come in when the wheels are slowing and speeding up at different rates?  I dunno :lol


Quote
Hold on, I am just saying you can steer a bike without the bars, no one said anything about at speed,
The question was about cornering, and I got the distinct impression it was about cornering at speed.  And let’s face it cornering generally takes place at speed.  Turning is something else.


I tend to agree with the California Superbike school – who as I understand it, state that you can do what you want with your feet, your thighs whatever, but if you wanna be in control of the bike, and you wanna make it turn – you have to put input to the bars.


If you can steer your bike Flooky, you should be able to go round a decent sized roundabout at a decent speed whilst sitting bolt upright.  Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Slaninar on 19 June 2019, 08:59:05 pm
My long drivelling on countersteering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2530/countersteering-bicycle-steering/

And on cornering:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/2586/fast-cornering-with-a-bicycle-on-paved-roads/

All written in the cycling context, but the basic principles are practically the same.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: agricola on 19 June 2019, 09:20:22 pm
Ive watched the motogymkhana folks a few time snow, looks to me to be a different tecnique ofr cornering. I reckon they crank the bike over but stay upright themselves. Cornering at speed is a question of balance, the rider shifts his mass over to one side (hangs off) while trying to keep the bike as upright as possible. Go faster into the corner and you then need to lean the bike over more. This subject can be over analysed
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 19 June 2019, 10:44:26 pm
 
Quote
Leaning has nothing to do with getting a bike round a corner at speed.  It’s all in your hands.

It’s trying to put it right.  Maybe I should try;
 
Leaning is an important part of getting a bike to corner at high speed, but only input at the bars will make it change direction / initiate the turn.  And for that matter end the turn.


As think Agricola is saying, leaning is an important part of balance, shifting the centre of gravity to maximise grip etc.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: coffee on 19 June 2019, 11:46:35 pm
Some years ago,Rob Mclnea [racer and team boss] locked the bars so they would not move to see if the bike would turn and he reckoned the bike wouldn't steer at all,so according to him you must have to have input on the bars to steer,and I think he'd know. :smokin
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 20 June 2019, 10:21:59 pm
That's a good explanation Grahammmmm...so Leaning is NOT optional. Anyway, calm down UNFAZED, it's not a competition to see who can get round fastest, or leave the most metal/leather on the road. What we seek here is a good approach, on the correct line, in the right gear at a brisk but not excessive pace, followed by a smooth arc around the turn leading into a full power exit on the right side of the road, thereby providing a wholesome feeling of harmony between rider, motorcycle and universe. :angel

Steady on chaps.....!!!! What we need here is harmony.... DO YOU HEAR ME FOCCERS...!!!???....HARMONY...!!! :eek :finger :wall :pokefun :smash :2guns
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 22 June 2019, 01:05:37 pm
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy.......wot do u FOCCERS think...????? :lol :rollin :'(
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 22 June 2019, 07:33:25 pm
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

Quote
the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: agricola on 22 June 2019, 08:45:51 pm
Trail braking, no thanks. Either be on the throttle or on the brakes, no slack time in between the two, cos thats lost time, its one or the other, turn in later, lets you get on the throttle quicker and out of the exit. On the track of course
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Dudeofrude on 22 June 2019, 09:29:06 pm
Trail braking is a brilliant technique that I personally think every rider should learn. It gives you so much more control through the corner and is especially useful on the road where there is a chance of the conditions changing mid corner.
You basically still brake as normal up to the corner but instead of letting go and coasting, you taper the brakes off until the Apex then you go straight back on the throttle. Theres slightly more nuance to it but that's the general just.

People going on about braking mid corner being dangerous clearly don't understand how it works.  If done correctly it gives you more grip and more stability.

If you dont know how it works (or how to do it properly) then I'd suggest watching a few YouTube videos on the subject before trying it for yourself.

Once you get the hang of it you'll be surprised how much more confidence you can get through the bends
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 22 June 2019, 10:10:34 pm
 I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Millietant on 23 June 2019, 12:16:27 am
I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.


Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.


Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.


A brusque Yorkshireman who was also a top racer on both Road Courses (like the IOM TT) and Race Courses once told me at a racing school class that my "trail-braking" that I thought was the way to get my speed down in a corner was me "lining myself up for an early grave".


On the roads and generally on the track (except at the highest levels of skill) riders trail-brake because they get a corner wrong, entering. turns too early and then trying to slow down once in the corner.


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


As I said a couple of sentences Steve, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, unless they're a professional - this is your life you're playing with (especially if you're going to try to ride harder/faster on the roads by trail-braking more !!) - go to a proper track school (not a Track Day, a School session) and get professional advice - it might just save your life !!!
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Millietant on 23 June 2019, 12:28:38 am
I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

Quote
the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...

Sorry Grahammm & Dude, I have to disagree, trail braking into a bend is not a good thing. I agree with your comment Grahammm of getting the braking done before you hit your turn in point.

Regarding the braking to the apex comment - I've never been taught to brake to the apex and then apply throttle  at the apex and I really think that's a bad approach. Most racers are already on the throttle before the apex. The apex isn't where you aim to stop braking, the turn-in point for the corner is basically where you stop braking.

There's an excellent section in the book "Twist of The Wrist" by Keith Code which explains this clearly (there's a lot of other tecchy stuff in the book that's hard to read too though) - Keith Code founded the California Superbike School and has taught many of the world's top riders over the past 30 years and the first time I did a CSS racing school day, they taught it exactly as it says in the book and still do.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Dudeofrude on 23 June 2019, 08:50:15 am
I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Dudeofrude on 23 June 2019, 08:58:45 am
[quote author=Millietant link=topic=25373.msg299687#msg299687


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


[/quote]

I'll also add that I think this is excellent advice.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Millietant on 23 June 2019, 10:45:01 am
I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo (https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo)

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)


I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Dudeofrude on 23 June 2019, 11:19:06 am
I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo (https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo)

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)


I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.

That's all fair and valid points. Maybe it's just as I'm so used to it that I cant see a problem with it.
Also maybe I came across with the wrong intention in the sense that I dont believe this is necessarily a method for super fast cornering, more for a (in my opinion) faster, safer cornering practise for the kinds of conditions I ride in.
As I spend most of my time riding through the Lincolnshire wolds I come across a fair amount of animals in the road ( dead or alive) And back when I first started riding i nearly came off after hitting a dead rabbits head in the middle of a blind bend. I was a novice rider at the time and did grab a fist full of front brake but luckily didnt bin it.
After that I started doing training days at Cadwell and attending the ride safe events as well as doing research about advanced riding online etc. That's when I discovered trail braking and started practising it more and more.
Now its second nature to me and i can honestly say its potentially saved my skin no end of time when I've been cranked over mid bend and theres suddenly a dead fox/badger/deer etc in the middle of the road.
Obviously it's not for everyone and that's cool. As light as we all stay rubber side down and get home safe 😊
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 23 June 2019, 11:23:24 am
Millietant;
Quote
Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.
 
 
Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.

If you brake hard approaching a turn, let the brakes go, and then throw the bike on it’s side.  Well think about it, the front suspension will be unloading fast just as you want it to load up again.  This will compromise your grip.  You need to trail the brake a little so the front will not unload just when you need full grip.


I’m not talking about braking whilst leaned over in the middle of a corner.  It’s about the progressive switch from baking to entering the corner.  As you begin to lean the bike you are progressively coming off the brake, and as I’m not a racer I’m completely off the brake long before the apex of a tight turn. 



 
I googled California Bike School and trail braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSTbS7yckFo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSTbS7yckFo)
Long long article here on trail braking
https://www.facebook.com/californiasuperbikeschool/posts/trail-braking-is-a-technique-that-can-benefit-certain-riding-situations-the-inte/734032623295378/ (https://www.facebook.com/californiasuperbikeschool/posts/trail-braking-is-a-technique-that-can-benefit-certain-riding-situations-the-inte/734032623295378/)
 
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 23 June 2019, 11:24:30 am
.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Millietant on 23 June 2019, 12:09:37 pm
Struggling with the links VNA, but I agree with your comments about hard braking, letting the brakes go and flinging a bike on its side (and rough riding like that is never good on the street) - again its all about context - hard braking, controlled (but quick) release of the brakes and controlled turn-ins are all about smoothness.


My first CSS class had a session where we were instructed/taught to ride the bikes round the track without any brakes at all - that drove your focus on looking ahead and choosing turn in points. The difference in our lap times after a few goes at this was phenomenal. Smoothness in every aspect of riding is key to controlling traction.


Your description of what you practice as trail-braking is something that I interpret as totally different to what was shown in Dude's video - what you describe is great, as in smoothly releasing the brakes as you turn in.


CSS does teach that proper "trail-braking" is a great tool in certain circumstances, but for road riding and under the circumstances Steve described (i.e. Running wide in corners), trail braking, which as you mentioned earlier makes the bike want to stand up and run wider, would seem to be the exact opposite of what Steve needs to be doing.


As I said, I've been taught many times to get my braking effectively done before the corner and to minimise actions that would upset the suspension and tyres whilst leaned over mid-corner. In racing terms, I suppose the mantra of "to finish first, first you have to finish" is what underpinned this and teaching something that would make bikes run wide, to novices like me, would likely have resulted in lots of crashes. However, once you've mastered the basics then maybe it's time to start exploring the limits.


From what you've described of the way you corner and ride (which I agree with), I think it also shows that "trail-braking" means different things to different people, some interpret this as braking all the way from turn-in to the apex, which it seems is different to what you and I practice, which is why I would advise Steve to get face to face professional instruction, rather than taking advice from us amateurs on forums where context is easily missed or misinterpreted. Asking questions of the instructors in person is the best way to learn in my opinion.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: noggythenog on 23 June 2019, 05:35:42 pm
This thread is really good, even if it is pants & we talk nonsense because through that comes so much more knowledge from others. I regret my mention of ships now but there was context in my speed loss through a corner from a small bit of roadcraft i did on 4 wheels.


Despite all of that i am a firm believer in some of the other principles & especially having the suspension neutral before turning.....i personally dont believe in the front suspension having to be dug in to corner well as I think both front & rear needs equal traction.....on a really long corner mid way round if you have loaded up the front purposely surely mid corner this has now returned to neutral but it doesnt suddenly break away into non traction.


If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner then i've never dared try it as i am so uncomfortable on my right foot on the bikes i have owned that i cannot comfortably hold my foot near the brake pedal never mind using it mid corner at a split seconds notice with finesse......also i feel that to do too many things in a situation overloads the brain and we cannot multi task, something will give & i think that the whole looking where you want to go not only helps the bike round but also psychologically commits the brain to success and commitment & i would say to use that instead of sharing it with braking.


I am in awe following trail brakers as i just cant do it but i also feel that they are already planning on trail braking most of the time before the situation requires it....almost like drifters kicking the back end out on cars......i just think that it is a style of riding rather than an emergency thing & i suppose with riding mostly being enjoyable then if thats what they enjoy.....why not......just not my style.....as i say i cant even get comfortable on a rear brake...we are all different.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 23 June 2019, 07:09:04 pm
 Sorry Millietant, I used to be able to post a youtube link nae bother.  Cannae get it to work at all now.
I have to say I don’t really think how I brake and corner.
For me applying the brakes mid corner is cos something bad is gonna happen if I don’t.  Always with braking, as you know, and even with emergency braking you need to apply force progressively.
I tried to think about what I was doing when I was out today.  And yup I trail brake all over the shop.  I’m not thinking about it, I’m doing it because it feels right and maximised stability and grip. 
But if I’m braking mid corner it’s cos I’ve focced up and I don’t think I’ll make the turn.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 23 June 2019, 07:17:28 pm
 
Quote
If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner.
I check the rear brake before an MOT just to make sure it’s still working. :)   Some times its handy for holding the bike on a steep hill.


The rear brake just isn’t something I use.  I can’t see how it would help cornering.



Like I said before, braking mid corner - for me - is cos I’ve focced up big time or something weird is happening right in front of me.  Front brake only and you are going to have to push really hard on the bar to keep the bike down whilst hoping it doesn’t brake away from you.  Not nice and to be avoided at all costs.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 23 June 2019, 10:41:56 pm
I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.

Err, no, the point is the suspension is *supposed* to be unloaded as you go into the turn!

If you go into a bend with the suspension loaded, it's got nowhere to go if you hit a bump which could, in the worst case, cause the front to lose contact with the road surface.

With the suspension unloaded, you have a longer wheel-base and the forks can compress when needed, which gives you more grip and stability.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 23 June 2019, 10:58:20 pm
 What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.


With trail braking you control the front suspension letting it unload gradually until it balances with the cornering load.


Trail braking is the smooth way to transition from braking to turning in order to maximise grip control and stability.
 
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 24 June 2019, 01:49:36 am
What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.

That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.

That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 24 June 2019, 06:12:33 pm
Quote
That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.

That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.
I've never riden on the track.  It's what I've leaned myself from years of riding.
And it's just simply a better way of riding.  Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Grahamm on 24 June 2019, 11:21:35 pm
Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?

If you were doing that, I wouldn't be arguing with you. But it's your life and your choice.
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: fazersharp on 25 June 2019, 12:15:19 am
This thread is driving me round the bend  :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Dudeofrude on 25 June 2019, 10:32:27 am
This thread is driving me round the bend  :lol

Hey at least it motorcycle related and nobody's getting threatened.... yet 🤣🤣
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: VNA - BMW Wank on 25 June 2019, 06:08:25 pm
Quote
This thread is driving me round the bend  ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

It's certainly had it's twists and turns :rolleyes
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Steve3351 on 25 June 2019, 06:35:19 pm
JANEY MAC...!!!!    clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!!      :lol :rollin :rolleyes ....
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: midden on 26 June 2019, 09:51:20 pm
Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more 😂



Or a heavy foccer and don't need to lean so far  ;)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: midden on 26 June 2019, 09:56:33 pm
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...


It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".

Quote
whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...


Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea.

Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.

Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.

Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... [url]http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf[/url])




Trail braking is not a BAD idea  if done correctly..... and trail braking doesn't replace counter steering. 


Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Frosties on 26 June 2019, 11:30:06 pm
Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"


Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only  :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: coffee on 28 June 2019, 12:59:33 am
Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"


Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only  :lol :lol :lol



you've got to have a level playing field,everyone must be on Honda Cubs, std, no tuning or slicks, quick shifters,anti wheely,etc. ;)
Title: Re: Cornering
Post by: Millietant on 29 June 2019, 04:22:36 am
JANEY MAC...!!!!    clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!!      :lol :rollin :rolleyes ....


I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do it your way Steve, but if you really do want to ride properly-fast, get some advice from the professionals (not us lot) - unless you're a natural riding god already, you'll be amazed by how much quicker you will actually ride.


It's possible (nay....its undeniable) that making SMOOTH inputs (not slow inputs) is the way all the fastest riders do it - if you do a lap of Donnington/Silverstone on the back of either Ron or Leon Haslam, you'll be amazed at how smoothly they ride and how fooking fast they go with lean angles and corner speeds people like us can only imagine - and all the while they're reading MCN and riding with only one hand on the bars  :lol :lol