R1 engine swap

[Graham53]

A friend has just had his 1999 carb R1 stolen/recovered and it's focced but the motor is ok , he's got the opportunity to buy back what's left from the insurance as it's written off for not much ££ so my question is can the R1 motor fit into a gen 1 without too much fettling as the gen 1 is basically an R1 lump or is it mission impossible.
Whilst I'm not thinking of doing it, if it was possible without a lot of hassle I might make him an offer on the engine and put it away to attempt at a later date

[Falcon 269]

Mission impossible.  Fundamentally the same engine but the mounts and carb fitments are significantly different so slotting the R1 motor into the Fazer frame is a non-starter.  Shame but that's how it is.

[turbo-steve]

i think it could be done. would take some messing around but i think it could be done. You could swop out all the r1 internals and put them into the fazer bottom end. That would sort the mounts out. Now the head is a differant matter. If the r1 tank fits on the fazer then your in with a good chance of making it work. As the r1 carbs sit almost  upright.
But if it was me i would just put the r1 crank in the fazer engine. As there lighter. Remove a leaf or 2 from the head gasket or get a hi comp one. Get the carbs bored out. ivans kit and k&n and see what ya get.
But to be fair would it all be worth it.

[Graham53]

I'll be honest I was thinking it would be impossible but had to ask as the opportunity for a cheap low mileage R1 engine was too good to miss if there was a possibility of fitting without too much aggro, it is therefore with much regret I will have to bin that idea.
Thanks though

[PaulSmith]

The costs involved in getting an 18 year old engine into a 15 year old frame (from a different bike) are not trivial, but beg the obvious question, why would you want to? If it worked, you would have a faster Fazer, but it still wouldn't be as fast as an R1 and it would cost a lot more. £2,500 will get you almost anything you want over ten years old, be it a Fazer, an R1 or something else.   

[Graham53]

But if the costs were minimal and not to much fettling, which was the question to start off with why wouldn't you ?
If I wanted an R1 I would have bought one but if I could have a fazer that was nearly as quick as an R1 for very little money and effort yes I would but then that also begs the question why do fazer owners get ivanised ?? When you can have something else for £2500 that's got more bhp or fit an R6 shock or R1 usd forks when you can get a bike that handles better for £2500 etc etc etc ,probably because then the something else for £2500 isn't a fazer and with all its faults and idiosyncrasies I like many others love them but doesn't mean I can't wonder if it can't be improved or enhanced in a way that makes it a fazer but better than the something else for £2500 that I didn't want

[PaulSmith]

If the costs were minimal and the results were worth it, people would have been doing it for the last 15 years. People Ivanise because the costs are minimal and the results are worth it, just as some people fit R1 forks because the costs are worth it to them. The Fazer is already very nearly as fast as it can get and it is not the engine that is holding it back. Yes ivanising gives a bit more power, but most people will tell you its real benefit is drivability, something you wouldn't get from an R1 engine in that frame.
 

[devilsyam]

If it could have been done in would have done it

[Graham53]

i asked the question for the following reason, I had the opportunity to buy an engine from a friend for £50, yes very cheap but he is a very good friend and he was in the position to do that as his stolen recovered bike had been replaced and we were talking as mates do down the pub and a few beers later maybe too many the question was posed. Let's say it was possible but because a s/h R1 engine is what £500 and additional parts etc let's say £200 then obviously it's not cost effective for any benefit and possibly someone may have done it but dismissed it as not worth it. But as I could have got the engine for £50 and then the £200 for additional parts etc then it's a similar cost to ivanising and imo worth asking the question because like you said for people fitting R1 forks it's worth it to them, if it was possible and as I asked not much money and hassle then it might have been worth it as I have never nor want to own an R1 and therefore do not know the engine characteristics vs the fazer. I now see the error of my ways and feel suitably chastised for asking the question or being curious.

[Falcon 269]

I own a 99 R1 and a well-modded Fazer 1000.  The R1 engine is a beauty, one of the best stock motors ever.  It's a shame Yamaha couldn't fit it into the Fazer frame because the way it delivers both low down torque and peak power up top is a delight. 

It's probably because the R1 chassis is about 30kgs lighter than the Fazer but the way it responds to the throttle is so much more engaging.  A brilliant road engine, IMHO.  No EFI, no electronics to control crazy peak power, just strong and linear shove everywhere.

Like Luke said, if it could be done, we'd have both done it by now.

[tommyardin]

i asked the question for the following reason, I had the opportunity to buy an engine from a friend for £50, yes very cheap but he is a very good friend and he was in the position to do that as his stolen recovered bike had been replaced and we were talking as mates do down the pub and a few beers later maybe too many the question was posed. Let's say it was possible but because a s/h R1 engine is what £500 and additional parts etc let's say £200 then obviously it's not cost effective for any benefit and possibly someone may have done it but dismissed it as not worth it. But as I could have got the engine for £50 and then the £200 for additional parts etc then it's a similar cost to ivanising and imo worth asking the question because like you said for people fitting R1 forks it's worth it to them, if it was possible and as I asked not much money and hassle then it might have been worth it as I have never nor want to own an R1 and therefore do not know the engine characteristics vs the fazer. I now see the error of my ways and feel suitably chastised for asking the question or being curious.

Bugger asking or posing a question in here, it seems to me like poor old Graham has/is taking a bit of a battering for asking a question about a possibility or a feasability, and, looking at his last reply I think maybe he's feeling as if he is too.
 If they can fit an aeroplane engine in a motorcycle (The Flying Millyard) I'm sure a engine from a different model Yamaha can be superglued, double sided tape, velcro or 4 inch nailed into a Fazer frame. The end result might be shite and handle like a camel with a hernia but the question is still valid.


 By the way I heard the Flying Millyard running up at the NEC a few years ago what an awesome project that was and what a f------g noise it made just ticking over and with the throttle being blipped it made the solid floor vibrate and you could feel your stomach roll inside you, incredible bass sounds.
Graham gives us a grin LOL! 

[PaulSmith]

The question was asked and politely answered in the first two posts. I asked a different question which was 'why'. I can understand putting a jet engine on a push bike frame because it is daft and fun and you end up with something unique. It is also good engineering and an enjoyable project even if it doesn't work. I don't understand an R1 engine in a Fazer frame since the best possible outcome is a better Fazer (that is still not as good as an R1). That is the best possible outcome that I can envisage, but I might have missed something, hence my question, 'why'. Graham has answered that question so I am happy.

[tommyardin]

Graham has answered that question so I am happy.

Woopie doo! Well that's OK then.

[devilsyam]

Ok so go do it be the first I'll eat humble pie as I've also been there done that and  done the opposite to the can't do ers go for it

[PaulSmith]

...
Woopie doo! Well that's OK then.

Look's like everyone here is happy except for you. 

[Falcon 269]

... I'm sure a engine from a different model Yamaha can be superglued, double sided tape, velcro or 4 inch nailed into a Fazer frame.

You're my kind of engineer.

So right, though ... nothing is impossible if you can envisage a way of making it happen.  I think that it makes more sense to put regular bars and a comfy seat on an R1 chassis/motor than try to graft the R1 engine into the Fazer.  Even putting an R1 head and internals into the Fazer cases probably wouldn't do the trick.  But if you love a challenge, it's a good 'un! 

[turbo-steve]

seem to be be alot of been there done that on here.
The guy asked a simple question. And all he gets is a load of crap. YES it could be done. YES it would be a pain to do.
And yes what would be the point of doing it. BECOURSE HE CAN.
And he would have one fukin insane fazer.
This is from me that uesd to put turbos on r1s and r6s just becourse i could.

[tommyardin]

Seems to me that a lot of people in here are throwing their toys out of their prams.
And reading what they want into replies that were written in this post.

Now i am no mechanic, I do spark plugs and oil changes and simple things like air filters, fuel filters and even fitted braided brake lines, you know the sort of things those that are basically bolted on the outside.
So I am talking from a bricklayers point of view.

My point was and still is, even if the task of fitting a R1 lump in a different frame is impracticable and very, very, very, very, difficult to the point of being almost impossible or at the very least absurd in the highest realm.

My point is still valid, not for me to do it or even contemplate the thought because I do not have the skill base or the wisdom or plain mechanical know how.

The original question was from a member who shall now remain nameless as it really is no longer an issue as he feels 'suitably chastised'    by the members who commented about the original post.
I would suggest we all pick up our toys before they get trodden on and spoiled.

I am a piss taker and I love the crack as much, maybe,even more than most, nearly all my replies to posts in here have an element of humour or irony about them so for fuck sake lighten up.
I still stand by my premise that question was and still is a valid question, the question was asked and it was answered by many people who equally have an opinion that might be right or wrong, including me.

And the thought of a turbo being fitted to a Fazer really is a worthwhile upgrade, but don't ask me to ride it.

[AyJay]

The problem with the written word is that it's very difficult to get a sense of the tone of voice from the words on the page, and one person's reading is often different to another's.


Anyway, I have a Fazer 1000 engine sitting in bits in the garage. I was going to rebuild it after the second gear went west, but even a pattern gasket set was 300 quid plus when I was thinking about doing it a few years ago , so financially it's not worth rebuilding if you can get a complete unit from a breakers for 4-500.


It's the same thing with the R1 in a Fazer chassis - it's not beyond engineering knowhow, but if standard R1 has 150bhp and the Fazer has 143, there's a law of diminishing returns. It really isn't worth it, bar inquisitiveness.


It'd be really interesting to ride an R1 engined Fazer though, wouldn't it?


Or did Yamaha more or less do that and then called it the Gen 2? Which didn't sell as well and hasn't the same reputation as the Gen 1 for rideablity...


Jus' sayin'.


Oh look, there's some pigeons and a cat...

[tommyardin]

Oh look, there's some pigeons and a cat...

Just for arguments sake them foccing pigeons are rooks     

[Falcon 269]

Or did Yamaha more or less do that and then called it the Gen 2? Which didn't sell as well and hasn't the same reputation as the Gen 1 for rideablity...

Not the same because the character of the Gen 2 engine is that of the 2006 R1 (might be a bit earlier), not the brilliant carb'ed original.  The 98/99 R1 has more grunt everywhere than the Gen 1 Fazer despite Yamaha saying the latter was 'retuned for more torque'. 

A 4XV R1 motor in a Gen 2 frame ... now that's an idea!

[AyJay]

Not the same because the character of the Gen 2 engine is that of the 2006 R1 (might be a bit earlier), not the brilliant carb'ed original.  The 98/99 R1 has more grunt everywhere than the Gen 1 Fazer despite Yamaha saying the latter was 'retuned for more torque'. 

I realise that, Mike. Toothy grin. I was just mixing it up a bit for the fun of it! I rode both the 2004 R1 and Gen 2 Fazer (matching architectures, in the same way the 99 R1 and 2001 Fazer architectures match) when they came out and the power deliveries of both are very different in character to the preceding models. I'm trying to think of a metaphor to describe it, but all I can come up with is the later models feel like a 600 with 40% more top end but only 10% more torque. Wildly inaccurate in the face of the actual power and torque figures, I know, but they don't feel like litre bikes, somehow.

They don't have the same gravitas and solidity as the older engines, the delivery feels thin and reedy rather than solid and robust. Something went missing when they started chasing revs to increase the power, probably the midrange. Midrange doesn't matter if you can pile on the revs really fast, you just gear the bike down a bit, which is also a 600 trait.

Have you ridden an MT-07 yet? That engine feels just like a Gen 1 Fazer's younger brother. Lovely power delivery.

A 4XV R1 motor in a Gen 2 frame ... now that's an idea!

Mission impossible. Can't be done.
Arf!

[tommyardin]

Or did Yamaha more or less do that and then called it the Gen 2? Which didn't sell as well and hasn't the same reputation as the Gen 1 for rideablity...

A 4XV R1 motor in a Gen 2 frame ... now that's an idea!

Don't know what all that 4XV R1 stuff is, but it seems to me that a lot of guys in here seem to think you are the Bogs Dollocks, so, I will just nod my head and grin like i know what you are talking about.  Yeeeaaaah! that would go well

[tommyardin]

Oh! Hello Mike, I think it is what I have seen/heard? people called you.
What is all this Ivanising or galvanising or pasteurising I keep hearing about? Please explain, then I will be able to nod my head and grin at that to. 

[tommyardin]

The problem with the written word is that it's very difficult to get a sense of the tone of voice from the words on the page, and one person's reading is often different to another's.

I couldn't agree more with you AyJay, they are wise words, and I am as guilty as the next man for jumping to conclusions. Thanks for your stabilising influence.