sharing an experience

[Gnasher]

actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.

If the bolt/sump plug is still in there and is short as you say, the thread above the shorten bolt should still be serviceable?  If so and you can remove the bolt and use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread.   

personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?

Most over tighten all bolts, when you consider you can put about 100flbs /135Nm on a 5mm cap head with a allen key,  think what you can do with a 17mm spanner    The 40Nm is to allow for the crush effect, that's the issue with reusing washers, once crushed even flat washers compress hence why they're soft, the same torque is now stressing/stretching the threads.  As a rule the sump bolt/plug needs only about 1/3 turn with a spanner no more, and that's with a new washer.


 

[butthead]

possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !! 

[Gnasher]

Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use.   

[darrsi]

Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use.

This is good to know, i'll have a look next time i get the bike out. Plus i don't think i'm too far off an oil change either.

[darrsi]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

[Gnasher]

possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !!

Even though these other 2 bikes I've mentioned about have your issue and have gone through a few oil changers. I still wouldn't recommend you do it long term and stated it's a get around.  You will get the vast majority of the oil out if you tip the bike enough, even if you don't you'll still replacing 80-90% plus of the oil and if you change it within the service specs your be fine. 

All that said the sump bolt leek will slowly get worse, hence 1 of the others having their sump bolt bonded in.  As I told those other two owners, you need to either replace the sump bolt with a OE using what's left of the thread if possible or get the sump repaired/ replaced.   

[Gnasher]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads.  The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads. 

That's why you can use thread lock

It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads.  They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them.   

[darrsi]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads.  The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads. 

That's why you can use thread lock

It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads.  They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them.

"...The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole..."

Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?  


I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. 

[darrsi]

This bolt is 2 threads shorter than an OEM version, but double the amount of the other magnetic one in my previous photo. Plus it has a magnet added.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RACE-TITANIUM-MAGNETIC-DRILLED-SUMP-DRAIN-BOLT-YAMAHA-FZS600-FAZER-1997-1999/273744787602?hash=item3fbc75f892:g:MLkAAOSwfgRb61UG



It's #11 in the drawing for an OEM plug.
https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/OIL-COOLER/20_2045-2045/B9/0/24057

[Gnasher]

Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?  


I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. 

No, can't see why this was a problem.  The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either.  Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff.  As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating.   

[Gnasher]

I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
 https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057

No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug. 

Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler

[darrsi]

I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
 https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057

No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug. 

Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler

Thought that didn't look right that's why i wanted you to check it.


I've adjusted my post above as it is available on that website.

[darrsi]

Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean?  


I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. 

No, can't see why this was a problem.  The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either.  Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff.  As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating.   

To be fair when i bought the bike years ago i only paid £800 for it and it was in a very sorry state.
It had basically been used and abused as a toy, which i obviously didn't know at the time, so i don't even want to think about the previous home maintenance that had been done on it.
I slowly worked my way through the whole bike finding and fixing problem after problem and the chances of this particular owner over tightening everything he touched is a massive possibility. So having simple things like a caliper pin strip a thread didn't really surprise me too much as i've found worse things in the past.


To give you an idea what i was dealing with, i changed the oil in the first few days, but i took out 4.5 litres of oil from the sump. 
It was that kind of stupidity that started alarm bells ringing straight away.

[Trebus]

How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.

[Gnasher]

How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.

It wouldn't solve the leek mate. 

[butthead]

How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.

yes thats an option i had in mind , known as a dowty bolt, im sure it would work but would take longer to drain and might not empty sump completley as its a bolt within a bolt so it will hold onto more oil than the bolt removed. plus the complication of holding the origional nut still whilst undoing the inesrted bolt at the same time and then same thing doing back up
 

[butthead]

also gnasher, your point about the weep will ineviably get worse is true, so i will look to permanently stop it up with some bonding agent etc once it gets to the point where it is worse.
your other point about properly draining so that you are removing as much old oil as possible is also a very good point , which is exactly why you need to get as much out as possible, i definitley got 3.5 litres of old oil out, which is what the manual says oil &  filetr 3.5 litres req .


however a dry engine following rebuild takes 4.2 litres.  this must mean then that you can never remove the remaining old  0.7 litres from any style of oil drain so there is always .7l of old oil kicking around in your engine stuck in places that it cannot drain back to the sump . no way to remove 100% of all oil without disembly.
i think 3.5 is the max you can get out and just as long as thats what you can get out , this pump method is equal to a conventional drian. you cant drain anymore out than you can pump out.

[fazersharp]

I am going to mention PTFE tape again

[butthead]

re ptfe tape , yep its worth a try next oil change, along with a new bolt etc, but in the process of removing and retightening the threads may become worse as a result , then my weep could become a worse drip, then im worse off pushing me into a sump change. theres no way of pre  knowing that outcome.
definitley worth a go if my current weep gets worse as it is , which ,one day its bound to , then ive nothing to loose

[slappy]

I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.

Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads.  The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads. 

Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off  600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.

[Gnasher]

As said earlier

use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread.   

PTFE, wont compress enough, and if the threads are damaged it could be the straw the broke the camels back so to speak, it wont take the heat very well and start leaking.  Use the above mentioned, just make sure it's head gasket silicon sealant, not your bath stuff that wont take the heat either.     

[Gnasher]

[quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off  600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.



Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress    This is a bolt on a motorbike

[slappy]

Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.

That's your choice mate    But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will.  New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10.   

I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.

Nope, crows foot spanner 

I just noticed you can get a couple of washers for about £2.60 on Ebay. 


That's very weird you should mention a 'crows foot' spanner because i stumbled on them early this morning (not even sure how?) and i was trying to think of a scenario where they would be useful?
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?

Those crows foot spanners can be handy, just remember that to use your normally calibrated  torque wrench with one that you have to put it on at 90 degrees to the wrench. If you put it on in line with the wrench then you are increasing the length of the torque wrench by up to two inches, this means the calibration is now out. A rough guide is at a setting of 100 lbs ft the now extended wrench is now really operating at 110 lbs ft.
Just something to bear in mind when torquing up something like a sump bolt.

[slappy]

[quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off  600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.



Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress    This is a bolt on a motorbike

Wind your neck in,
And they are not blind holes.

[Gnasher]

Wind your neck in,
And they are not blind holes.

Any substance that is subject to enough compression that when a torque is applied to it, is treated as a blind hole i.e. compression lock.

You wind your neck in.  As I said get real no comparison at all not even close