Ivan kit and revisit to cold starting

[NitramA]

I tried to put up with the ongoing cold start problems I’ve posted about before with the view that maybe it’s normal behaviour.
However, even if I left it idling for a couple of minutes it would still bog down really badly when I tried to drive off.
As we live off a busy junction it was getting dangerous trying to merge with traffic when the bike would just lose power when I let the clutch out and put the engine under some load.
When I did manage to coax it into moving It would be OK after a quarter of a mile or so.
From then on it pulls ok and idles with no issues.
So, I’ve decided that there is still something wrong with the carbs.
This time i decided that if I’ve got to whip them out again I also want to fit Ivan’s kit.
So The carbs are off the bike but before I fit Ivan’s kit I wondered if someone could offer advice on what I should look for in the cold start circuit.
All the plungers are moving and from the outside everything seems ok.

[unfazed]

I have found the 1000 to be a cold creature and needs a few minutes to warm up before riding off, otherwise it will keep bogging down until it does warm up.
My method is full choke start it up and let it run on the choke until the revs drop, then choke off and away.

[Ricky]

My experience with cold stating is first turn on the ignition and give the pump time to prime. I noticed if you just turn on and fire straight away it would be difficult to start and bog down. May be I just have a slow priming pump, but it works for me and I use about half choke.
After I had my bike Ivanised I found the bike more difficult to start at first. I now find the bike a bit more temperamental and may need a few goes to start.

[NitramA]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
I find that I use full choke to start but the revs never really increase to a fast tickover  like I’m sure they used too.
If I don’t back off the choke almost immediately it will die, so I have to hold it on the throttle until it will tick over.
I then leave it for a couple of minutes before trying to move off.
I also let the pump stop clicking so assume it’s fully primed.
I see the choke mechanism can be removed/replaced but at £80 a carb I’d rather not f**k them by fiddling.
I think I’m going to have to have a look though!

[unfazed]

What's  your air filter like?

[NitramA]

Brand new about 200 miles ago.

[unfazed]

Has the problem only come to light since you changed the AIR filter?Out of curiosity what make is the air filter?

[CatalinU]

After I had my bike Ivanised I found the bike more difficult to start at first. I now find the bike a bit more temperamental and may need a few goes to start.

Same here, nothing to bad, just  the start and then i have to let it warm up, then runs like rocket

[ogri48]

gen ones are getting old, and like any old carbed bike, its realistic to expect to up both preventative and emergency maintenance mate. I wouldn't fit the Ivans until youve solved the problem, otherwise its just more blind alleyways looking for the answer.
If you take your carbs out and thoroughly clean everything (including every tiny hole in emulsion tubes etc) not only may you solve it, but it will make it far easier the second time around to get the carbs in and out for the Ivans, as you will have a better idea of the steps involved.
Im slowly working on my xjr13; have replaced the stock inlets for 36y unrestricted jobbies, cleaned carbs along with checking float heights and balance, 4degree ignition advancer and 17t gearbox sprocket (stock is 18), but do everything one step at a time then try the bike for a few days before moving on to the next job(in my case its the AIS).
The good thing about the fazer is its pretty much engineering from the ark, so you will be able to sort it mate mine starts better with the Ivans but I have to let the pump prime fully, and im running slightly richer than ivans instructions.

[NitramA]

I couldn’t agree more about taking one step at a time.
This is the second time I’ve taken the carbs off and the very reason I didn’t install Ivan’s kit then was that I didn’t want to confuse myself with multiple problems.
Second time round the carbs almost came out on their own!
Last time I cleaned out the jets and there was a marked improvement in the way it went.
I was just left with the cold start issue.
Looking at YouTube, the Haynes manual and posts on this forum, I think I’ve not properly cleaned some muck out from somewhere.
The way everything is interconnected leads me to believe it’s still gummed up which gives odd symptoms that may be nothing to do with the choke.
Looking at them now, all choke plungers move freely and I can see,them opening up the galleries in the carb body.
If I don’t find anything concrete in there Ivan will have to wait.

[unfazed]

What have you set the tick over speed to?
It sounds like pilot circuit is not doing its job properly.

What are the pilot screws set to?

[NitramA]

As an update I thought I’d take another look at the jets.
Everything seemed ok until I got to #3 where the needle jet (according to Pats photo) or the starter jet (according to the Haynes manual) was definitely more restricted to my needle jet cleaner poker thingy.
Slight pressure opened it up the same as #1 & #2.
#4 needle jet is much more blocked and whilst I can see through it there’s no way I could get the tool through without being in danger of applying too much pressure. I’ve left it in carb cleaner to soak for an hour or two.
I should say the the tool is a motorcycle specific jet cleaner and I’m using the smallest poker.
Being paranoid I’m now worried I’ve opened up 1,2,3 and 4 is the only one that’s the correct size! 


The Pilot jet and all the emulsion tubes are squeaky clean.

[ogri48]

nitrama i had a similar issue and it turned out to be one of the fuel inlet o rings... I'd changed them for new when I Ivanised, but had nicked one. That cylinder was running cold as it was overfuelling, and didn't fire until the bike hit 6k. I actually bought 50 of em as Mike gave me a heads up to sourcing them...if you want half a dozen so its summat else you can knock out of the equation, pm me your addy buddy, i'll post em out pronto (Gratis obvs as the young people say lol)

[NitramA]

nitrama i had a similar issue and it turned out to be one of the fuel inlet o rings... I'd changed them for new when I Ivanised, but had nicked one. That cylinder was running cold as it was overfuelling, and didn't fire until the bike hit 6k. I actually bought 50 of em as Mike gave me a heads up to sourcing them...if you want half a dozen so its summat else you can knock out of the equation, pm me your addy buddy, i'll post em out pronto (Gratis obvs as the young people say lol)

PM sent. Really appreciate the offer.

[ogri48]

not a problem bud. i'll get em in the post first class in the morning. best of luck with the rest of it mate

[unfazed]

You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire  from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.

[Trebus]

Ultrasonic baths are great if you can get hold / borrow one. Cleans out all the small chambers to remove varnish.

[NitramA]

You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire  from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.

Having cleaned and compared all the jets they’re all the same size across the carbs so I’m sure they’re ok.
Youre right though, if I’m in any doubt I’ll just buy a new jet.

[NitramA]

Ultrasonic baths are great if you can get hold / borrow one. Cleans out all the small chambers to remove varnish.

Was thinking about getting one I must admit.
Having a quick look to get one that I can just dump four carbs in is a bit £££££ and I don’t fancy breaking them down to single items either.
In saying that if this doesn’t work.....

[CatalinU]

You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire  from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.

Do you know what's the part number for those jets?

[Falcon 269]

I wonder if by focusing on the starter circuit because you're suffering fueling issues on start-up that you're missing the more likely cause(s).  The starter jets are large bore by comparison with the pilot jets and the whole circuit is hardly fine-tuned ... it just serves to richen the mixture for starting and warm-up really.  Witness how reluctant the motor is to idle with 'choke' within 30 - 60 secs of firing up.

Before anything else, I assume that the plugs are good and that you've checked the condition of the plug leads.  Always worth removing the caps, trimming 1cm off the lead and refitting the caps into fresh cable cores.

The pilot jets are always suspect in fueling issues.  Soak in solvent/carb cleaner and be certain that the tiny longitudenal hole is 100% clear.  If only partially clear, this will cause hesitant running until the motor is up to temp.

Replace the O-rings on the float needle valve seats like ogri48 suggested.  They will be in dodgy condition on almost all Fazer 1000s these days.  If they aren't leaking already, they will be soon.  Any leakage past them will alter the fuel level in the float bowl and mess with the fueling.  It is possible that a high fuel level is causing a rich misfire on cold start up but once the motor is running harder, the demand for fuel is sufficient to reduce the level towards its normal level.  This would account for the rough running disappearing when the motor is up to temp.

Do the preceding and then run a few tanks of fuel through with carb cleaner additive to reduce any varnishing that may have occurred in the internal passages.  Ultrasonic cleaning should have the same effect but will be far more costly. 

FWIW, I've seen Fazer carbs internals that looked diabolical (like green algae, almost!) but they still ran reasonably well.  I doubt yours are so badly gummed up as to be beyond sorting if you follow the advice given so far in this thread.

[ogri48]

there speaks a man who has seen the insides of fazer carbs more times than I've moaned about still being a builder at sixty years old (ie a foccing lot...) cheers mike .Nitrama they should be with you in the morning mate, along with some spares. When I Ivanised I did the first one dry, then used silicone o ring grease on the rest, as that first one had been so tight. So when I had #1 cylinder go down, I kinda new id focced up with that one. Sure enough, I'd guillotined a tiny sliver off the outside radius by fitting it dry, almost impossible to see, but it was doing exactly what Mike described. Hope this sorts it feller...

[NitramA]

That’s a fair old list Mike!


The plugs were changed about a 1000 miles ago, and I had the problem before they were replaced.
However I didn’t try snipping the HT leads. Odd you mention it as when I changed the plugs the HT lead came away from the cap. I screwed it back in, but that’s defiantly worth a try.
I’ve just soaked all the jets in cleaner overnight. I’ll spend some time tonight checking them over.
Again the theory about the fuel levels makes sense - Ogri has kindly supplied O rings so they’ll go in during the reassembly.


The insides of the carbs and all the galleries Seem spotless with no wear (that’s apparent to me) so I think its a careful rebuild in see how we go from there.


I’ll report back.
As always thanks for your help.

[Falcon 269]

If the lead came out of the cap that easily, it's a fair bet the contact isn't as good as it should be.  Easy fix.

The tiny hole at the end of the pilot jet often needs poking clear even after soaking in cleaner.  A top E guitar string is ideal  ... assuming you play guitar, of course

Set the mixture screws to 3 1/2 turns out while you have the carbs on the bench. 

Hope this fixes the issue but let us know if it persists.

[NitramA]

Just had a close look at the “cleaned” jets.
They all look good through my new favourite toy, an illuminated magnifying glass.
One thing I did notice was that one of the main jet looks like a 130 whilst the others were 132.5.
(That would be replaced during the Ivan install so not too worried about that).


The reason for the post is that I’m changing the rubbers in the needle seat, but can’t actually get it out.
It wobbles when I grab with my fingernails but the rubber seal seems to be holding it in place.
What’s the best way to get it out?
Could use some long nosed pliers and a cloth but thought I’d check with you guys first.