Author Topic: Reading between the lines (Read 3439 times)

AyJay · « **on:** 02 October 2012, 08:48:33 pm »

This is interesting. Yamaha have released news of a new engine and new direction - a triple.

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/10/02/manufacturers/yamaha/intermot-2012-yamaha-unveils-crossplane-triple-concept/

It looks like it's housed in a streetbike chassis . . . Now, just suppose that was around 1200cc. New Fazer?

pitternator · « **Reply #1 on:** 03 October 2012, 07:34:37 am »

well that sounds quite exciting ...but how odd for the japs to be copying Triumph !

...maybe they now realise how much better a triple is for a road bike than a four...?

it could be my ideal bike, a triple with a crossplane bark...wow!

Dave48 · « **Reply #2 on:** 03 October 2012, 08:13:50 am »

I really like the idea of this. Had just read elsewhere re Yamahas 2013 makeovers on FJR & FZ8 & XJ & thought same old...same old-- then saw this. Maybe they really do want to innovate/try something different. Wonder what engine size theyre considering?

AyJay · « **Reply #3 on:** 03 October 2012, 08:14:17 am »

That's what I was thinking Mr P. Sportsbike engines have gone a bit too far up the rev range to make great streetbike engines in recent times - can you see a ZX10 engine being any good in a streetbike, for instance, so a big torquey triple might be just the ticket. The article suggests it will be used in other bikes so again like Triumph, or Honda, I reckon it would end up in the next Tenere as well. Oh, go on Yamaha, make it a 1200 or even 1300, stick it in the Fazer chassis and give it a big tank!

Slaninar · « **Reply #4 on:** 03 October 2012, 08:46:30 am »

Friend who races for fun and fixes bikes for a living says that Japanese excell at in line 4. He also says that Triumph triple is the best road bike engine ever made. Not sure how good a bike this will be... though all the bikes are good when you have free time, fuel and sun!

BMCfaz · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 October 2012, 10:40:16 pm »

While I got the theory behind the crossplane crank in an inline 4, WTF is it going to do in a 3? Looks like we've gone back to the Jota days: which is best, the 120 or 180 crank? (You may need to be a certain age to remember this)
And while I'm at it, why a 1200 or 1300? If the power is usable, anything between 750 and 900 would be ideal for a ROAD bike.
It would be nice, though, to see a development of the Fazer concept. We've waited a long time to see a gen3 that combines the best elements of the gen1 and 2, but I'm not holding my breath for it!

Dave48 · « **Reply #6 on:** 03 October 2012, 11:12:54 pm »

Sounds like theyve got the opportunity to develop a whole family of triples. While it would be nice to see a genuine replacement Fazer thou it would also be great to see engines of say 400-600cc-750cc powering decent road bikes. Get the feeling that the ultimate power @ astronomical revs days are over as all rounders with decent torque from low down make a comeback.

AyJay · « **Reply #7 on:** 03 October 2012, 11:39:45 pm »

Quote from: BMCfaz on 03 October 2012, 10:40:16 pm

While I got the theory behind the crossplane crank in an inline 4, WTF is it going to do in a 3? Looks like we've gone back to the Jota days: which is best, the 120 or 180 crank? (You may need to be a certain age to remember this)
And while I'm at it, why a 1200 or 1300? If the power is usable, anything between 750 and 900 would be ideal for a ROAD bike.

Yeah, what is a crossplane triple if it's not a Jota 120? I dunno, but my bullshit-o-meter hit red when I read

"When asked what is the "crossplane concept", Senior Executive Motorcycle Business Operations, Kunihiko Miwa responded, "It is the philosophy where "crossplane" means the kind of torque character that gives riders the exact torque they want when they need it"

Pfft. That's not describing 'crossplane' as a specific design of crank . .

With regards to my suggestion it should be a 1200 or 1300, I suppose I'm spoiled by my other bike. Once I was content with a thousand, but these days, I reckon 175bhp and 100lbft of torque is a bare minimum. Cof.

Now, I did write that with tongue in cheek, but actually, there's a few good reasons for a next gen Fazer to be that size and they're called Triumph's Trophy and Explorer. They're up to 1200 now (and there's every chance the Speed Triple could use that engine at some point) but then so's Honda with the VFR/Crossdresser family, and so's KTM, Ducati et al. Everyone's going large.

The Aprilia Tuono is pegged at 1000 and it's a pretty frantic 160bhp they have there. If Yamaha want to make road bikes, then to get an output that would beat the current Gen 2 Fazer - say 160bhp but with a broad spread of useable torque - they'd have to go larger. The Laverda Mirage was 1116cc back in 1979 wasn't it? Why not the next Fazer?

Slaninar · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 October 2012, 02:49:20 pm »

I'm sure most riders can't use more than the power of a 500 cc on the public roads. 1000 cc sounds a bit like megalomania to me. 1200, 1300? Sure. If they put 3-4 catalysers and filters on the exhaust to make it super ECO5 friendly, with a power of an average 80s 500cc bike.

manuel32 · « **Reply #9 on:** 05 October 2012, 08:05:11 pm »

So what is the term "cross plane"?

i did not get any clues from above statement

slappy · « **Reply #10 on:** 05 October 2012, 08:55:03 pm »

yamaha have done triples before,wasn`t there an xs850 triple?

Tmation · « **Reply #11 on:** 06 October 2012, 03:54:02 am »

Yes, in the 70's Yamaha had the XS 750 and XS 850 triples, Long before the modern Triumph existed. In fact IIRC the the first modern Triumphs borrowed borrowed heavily from Kawasaki engine design, so who is copying who?

In reality there is nothing new under the sun these days, just continuos improvements of current technology with better materials and better electronics. Front forks still going strong after 100 + years!

BMCfaz · « **Reply #12 on:** 06 October 2012, 08:23:35 am »

I remember the xs750, it wasn't up to much compared to the 4 cylinder competition at the time, especially Suzuki's GS750. I do remember a girl who used to own one, though, and she was a much better ride than the bike!
The first modern Triumphs certainly borrowed more than just engine design from Kawasaki, the frame was "very heavily influenced" by the GPz900 frame, but not, of course, a rip off.
Despite Triumph and others going large with their engine capacity, the UK market is minor compared to the European mainland, where the smaller classes are much stronger sellers. The popularity of the Street3, Fazer 8 and Z750 there means it's only a matter of time before the manufacturers look at developing a mid-sized bike before the litre+ model. In fact, it looks like Triumph are already doing this, with updates to the Street3 before the Speed3.

AyJay · « **Reply #13 on:** 06 October 2012, 07:34:00 pm »

Yes, the European market is probably the target. Can't find much more info on it, except for the fact that it uses the engine covers from the current R1, so it does look like it's going to be around 750cc. Probably not the new Fazer 1000, then. Could be a proper rival to the Street Triple.

pitternator · « **Reply #14 on:** 08 October 2012, 07:41:34 am »

Tmation
Think you may have forgotten the original BSA rocket 3...I am sure they came out well before the XS range.I actually rode a Triumph Trident 750 triple in '77....

AND, how can you claim Kwak invented the parallel twin ! FFS Triumph started building them in the 30 s ! .. ed turners famous speed twin ...

ChrisJH · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 October 2012, 05:00:00 pm »

The best "usable" road engine Yamaha have for me already exists it's in the TRX / TDM 850 twin

JZS 600 · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 October 2012, 05:20:40 pm »

OK, 120, 180 and 270 degree firing orders I can understand, also "crossplane crank" in a V configuration engine but can some one explain "crossplane" in terms of an in line 4?

AyJay · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 October 2012, 08:07:39 pm »

On a normal inline 4 two pistons rise and fall at the same time, so effectively it's two parallel twins strapped together. Two pistons are at the top of the stroke at a time and the crank has each journal at 180 degrees to each other.

A crossplane inline 4 (or a Ferrari V8 like the 458) has each crank journal at 90 degrees, so only one piston is at the top of the stroke at a time. Best to see it working

http://bikerholic.com/2009/02/13/video-2009-yamaha-yzf-r1-crossplane-crankshaft-explained/

Tmation · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 October 2012, 08:20:49 pm »

Mr Pitt

I think you need to read my post again, the clue was in "MODERN TRIUMPH" ie since John Bloor started making them.

And who said Kawasaki invented the parallel twin? Oh and it certainly wasn't Triumph.

Kawasaki made triples in the 60's albeit two stroke ones.

The other clue was "Nothing new under the sun" most engine configurations have been tried time and time again for over 100 years by many different (and mostly no longer with us) manufacturers.

JZS 600 · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 October 2012, 08:49:38 am »

Interesting, kind of the reverse of a big bang engine?

fireblake · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 October 2012, 01:24:23 pm »

Nice link Ayjay, the video was interesting.
Are there any R1 owners on this forum with back to back comparisons?

Mickey

AyJay · « **Reply #21 on:** 12 October 2012, 09:13:00 pm »

Ta for that Mickey. When I was a teenager, I had the Technical Lego set and had fun building triple and 4 cylinder motorcycles (Give me a break, this was back in the 70s!) and I always built crossplane inline fours because it seemed perfectly logical to space it that way, and I was quite puzzled when I found out that they weren't arranged like that at all.
It seemed clunky having two pistons moving together and just spinning the Lego 'engine' you could feel it was less smooth than a crossplane because the friction of plastic on plastic amplified it. I tried using 3 in 1 oil once to make it run smoother but then the pistons used to fly out of the bores.
Ah, happy days. Don't you just lust after a crossplane Fazer though? Maybe I should buy a Cat C and build one myself because Yamaha aren't doing much at the mo. Hmm.

According to Kevin Ash in MCN, it might just be that Yamaha are in big financial trouble, big enough to question it's survival. Amazing what the exchange rates have done to Japanese industry - Sony has lost billions every year for the last four years and Panasonic have lost money in 3 of the last 4. Sharp is virtually finished, too.