Riding in the wet

[Jamieg285]

Thanks for all the responses and information, all very useful


Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to hoon around like a nutter in the wet, it's just at the moment it feels like I am being too cautious and I'm losing the flow as a consequence, which makes it feel even worse.


I'm using the bike for daily commuting, so with the current weather it won't take long to get plenty of wet riding experience.


Once issue I do have, with dry and wet riding is the throttle response. I find myself cruising into the tipping point, with the throttle closed, as I hit the apex I start to thottle, but find it a bit snatchy.  I'm getting used to it, trying a higher gear, but it's taking me a lot longer than I'd hoped to get used to it.

[Slaninar]

Just two rules:


1) Never trust the road surface:

If a part of road has a certain amount of grip, you can never know when you will come across wet leaf, diesel stained, or oily part of road - you just can't see those things when the road is wet. Also, whenever there are small pools of water, you never know if there is a 2 foot deep hole beneath them!

2) Be smooth:
 
Assuming always the worst possbile road surface, make no quick turns, brakes, acceleration, as little lean as possible.


Things like staying visible, using horn, looking far ahead should be used in both wet and sunny - nothing rain specific IMO.

[markaboot]

Dont know what tyres you are running but having a set I know I can trust really helps my confidence.
I'm running Michelin pilot road 2 on the rear and the first pilot road on the front, waiting for it to wear down then i will put a 2 on the front as well.


http://www.michelin.co.uk/motorcycles/michelin-pilot-road-2


There is also a pilot road 3 but that was a little out of my budget at the time of buying.




Other than that, go out on a quiet road, plan a little circuit and ride it. Build up your confidence riding the same corners a little faster each time with a little more lean each time. You slide a little when your getting close to the limit, you wont drop it (unless your get it way wrong) but tbh if its doing that you are riding too fast anyways.

[taylor]

i  just passed my test, and feel much the same out in the rain, do what your comfortable with it will come with time.  .

[Chillum]

Once issue I do have, with dry and wet riding is the throttle response. I find myself cruising into the tipping point, with the throttle closed, as I hit the apex I start to thottle, but find it a bit snatchy.  I'm getting used to it, trying a higher gear, but it's taking me a lot longer than I'd hoped to get used to it.

Hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're not setting yourself up for your corners properly.

The powerband on the Fazer is around 6k, so heading into a corner you should probably have around 7k and maintain a steady speed with that - whichever gears that ends up being.

Your bike will be in a state of 'readiness' and under a slight load.

Any advanced riders on here care to put that into English?

[richfzs]

Don't go into the corner with a closed throttle???

[Grahamm]

Once issue I do have, with dry and wet riding is the throttle response. I find myself cruising into the tipping point, with the throttle closed, as I hit the apex I start to thottle, but find it a bit snatchy.  I'm getting used to it, trying a higher gear, but it's taking me a lot longer than I'd hoped to get used to it.

Hope you don't mind me saying but I think you're not setting yourself up for your corners properly.

The powerband on the Fazer is around 6k, so heading into a corner you should probably have around 7k and maintain a steady speed with that - whichever gears that ends up being.

Your bike will be in a state of 'readiness' and under a slight load.

Any advanced riders on here care to put that into English?

I agree with Chillum, you should probably be in a lower gear, rather than a higher one and I'd say you're getting on the throttle much too late.

I had similar problems when I started to ride, ie cornering in too high a gear and trying to use power instead of revs to give me the drive through the bend.

When you approach a bend there are three main things to consider: Right position, right speed and right gear.

1) Right position. The simple version is that when you're coming into a left-hand bend you should position to the right and for a right-hand bend position to the left (presuming there's no junctions, driveway exits, crud on the outside of the bend etc that could compromise your safety or stability).

When you are going through the bend, stay positioned as you were on the entry, you're not on a race track and clipping the apex isn't necessary or necessarily safe as it can put you in a dangerous position and/ or will reduce your view ahead.

2) Right speed: Use the Limit Point to judge your approach speed, ie look at where the left and right hand sides appear to meet. If that point is coming towards you, slow down, if it's staying constant you can maintain your speed.

3) Right gear. You want to be in a gear that will give you the best power response and have a "balanced throttle" ie if you open it you will accelerate, if you close it then engine braking will decelerate you. If you're in too high a gear, the engine can bog down if you try to accelerate and you won't get any engine braking if you roll off the throttle. As Chillum mentions, this means you need the revs around the 7000rpm mark.

As you get to the point where you start to turn into the bend, you should slightly open the throttle to compensate for the reduced rolling radius and drive the bike around the bend, that way you shouldn't get the "snatchy" response you mention.

I'd strongly recommend reading "Full Control" which is a comprehensive and concise guide to biking with some excellent advice on cornering.

[Jamieg285]

The problem I get when trying to go in with a lower gear to keep the revs up is that when I try to drop the revs slightly, it seems to react even more, engine braking making me lurch forward and upset the balance.


Aiming for 6K+ would mean taking every bend/corner at 25+ mph, regardless of how tight the corner is.


What gear should I be looking for (I know this is subjective, but different opinions will help me work out where I'm going wrong).

[dazza]

Get off and push it   or leave it at home and take the 

[Lazarus]

What gear should I be looking for (I know this is subjective, but different opinions will help me work out where I'm going wrong).

best gear is one that allows best pickup acceleration but also allows deceleration when rolling off.


It can vary depending on bike / gearing / preference.


as said before - revs should be btwn 6000 - 70000 rpm. so you could be 2nd / 3rd gears into corners

[Slaninar]

as said before - revs should be btwn 6000 - 70000 rpm. so you could be 2nd / 3rd gears into corners

Yup, below 70000 definitely!

[Lazarus]

as said before - revs should be btwn 6000 - 70000 rpm. so you could be 2nd / 3rd gears into corners

Yup, below 70000 definitely!

lol!! (sorry - typo)
 
DONT EVER go above 70000 revs :|

[Bitfik]

Hehe, not sure how many times I revved above 6-7k yet! I should buy a scooter!

[Grahamm]

The problem I get when trying to go in with a lower gear to keep the revs up is that when I try to drop the revs slightly, it seems to react even more, engine braking making me lurch forward and upset the balance.

That sounds like you're in too low a gear or you need to be a bit more delicate with the throttle control. I'll admit that I still have problems with the latter, sometimes I roll off too fast and the bike lurches a bit which isn't very smooth 

Aiming for 6K+ would mean taking every bend/corner at 25+ mph, regardless of how tight the corner is.

What gear should I be looking for

For slower bends you'll need to use fewer revs, but it's really a matter of getting a feel for what the bike can do and that really comes with practice.

When I'm riding through the twisties these days I very rarely go above 4th gear unless it's a sweeping bend (ie not tight) that I can pretty much see all the way through or, at least, know that I can stop in the distance I can see clear on my side.

What I would do is to repeatedly ride a piece of road I'm familiar with (ie I know I'm usually taking a bend in 5th gear) and instead deliberately select one gear lower and pick the revs up to keep the same speed (using the Limit Point to judge how fast I should be going).

After a while I got a better feel for which gear would give the best power response to the throttle position such that, as mentioned, rolling off would give a controlled deceleration rather than an abrupt lurch, but giving it a twist would give a steady acceleration.

[DryRob]

This might highlight my inexperience but does clutch control come into any of this?

[Pat]

Pr3's sorted ... according to write ups

+1

PR3s really are outstanding in the rain, to the point that knee down in the wet is possible (not by me though!). 

I've done about 6,000 miles on a set including a couple of  2,500 mile round trips to play on the passes in the Alps on my thou & not only have they been faultless even in torrential rain on poor roads, & somehow they still look like they have enough life left in them for at least another trip!  I don't recall ever getting much more than 6k out of a back tyre before.

[SEPTIKANGEL]

Not ridden an FZ600, mine's an FZS1000.
But FFS Jamie, a high (7k) rpm is not essential when cornering, whether on the 600 or 1000. Unless your really pushing, which is not usual on public roads, even nationals, is it, really?   Position, speed and gear, in that order (see Grahamm above) are the important roadcraft bits we should all be considering on approach, wet or dry.  Get your route correct for the corner, reduce your speed, either with brakes or deceleration in the gear you're already in, then select the right gear for the circumstances, which is usually lower.  In the wet, your not gonna want a lightning snappy reaction from your throttle otherwise if it's too responsive (7k?) you may lose grip as the rear wheel spins.  So YOU choose the gear that feels right for the bend (too may variables to be precise here) which will keep the bike under a state of 'constant' acceleration - which means not trying to do your best quarter mile time through the curve, merely keeping the cables tight, keeping the power 'on' until you see the bend opening up allowing you to feel braver and feeding on more throttle. Keeping it 'under power' keeps the back end 'squatting' - a desired condition for grip on the rear wheel innit!  We all get it wrong sometimes, me too and peeps say 'Don't use your front brake in a bend', but sometimes you might have to, 'specially if your dabbing the rear and your still not slowing enough,  Just don't grab a handful of front all of a sudden or you'll be kissing the tarmac quicker than you can say 'FOC-U' -  Smooooth is the key with all your movements and decisions in the wet.
And DRYROB, clutch should be left alone when negotiating the corner, not slipping it, if that's what you mean. Clutch would've been used to select the correct gear on approach, of course.  The bike should be just pulling, not coasting with clutch lever 'in' ... keeping the power constant, but not snappy, 'till you can see opportunity to move quicker safely. Suppose there's a degree of clutch slipping when negotiating 90 degree, main road into side street cornering though? Is that what you meant?
There's always good advice here, but if it's a genuine desire to improve your skills, get yourself a copy of the police manual, it's the safest way to ride fast, but not the fastest way, which is better left for the tracks.  Get on an advanced course too, but try to make an effort with the book first it'll make more sense, if you're serious, persevere and digest over time. 
Best of luck and here's to some sunshine for the rest of what's left of Summer 2012! 

[DryRob]

I'm not sure what I meant but I was clearly wrong 

[SEPTIKANGEL]

I'm not sure what I meant but I was clearly wrong 

.........Not clearly wrong Rob, it was a good question that others may have been pondering, not just you.
There's a distinction between, Must not, Do not, avoid etc.  Highway code has these phrases backed up by legislation. Must not cross solid white's on your side, whereby broken white lines around hatch markings are 'avoid' ... (and there are always exceptions 
It's important when studying/learning with Roadcraft that while advice may be given against using front brake or changing gear when cornering, it's just that ....advisory.  There may be times when you need to change gear 'cos you misjudged your initial choice and 'specially in the wet, a careful and smooth downchange (with good clutch control!)  may be beneficial. 
 
 

[misterjayb1]

At end of the day it isnt a race... well not til wknd anyway 

[Fazerider]

Jamie, it may be that your bike isn't as well fettled as it could be if you're suffering from a snatchy throttle response.
Are the carbs balanced?
Check you don't have excess slack in the throttle cables.
Make sure the chain is correctly adjusted and the cush drive rubbers aren't knackered.
Is it misfiring?
If they're all OK then one technique you may find useful for smoother riding is to drag the back brake slightly when cornering. Not to slow you down, just enough to keep the top run of the chain taut... that way, when you start to open the throttle, there isn't any slack to take up before the power arrives at the rear wheel.

[Fazerider]

(Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs with that last suggestion, but some folks aren't aware of the value of the rear brake other than as "the one that can't throw you over the handlebars". )

[Grahamm]

This might highlight my inexperience but does clutch control come into any of this?

Not really (but it's not a silly question, however not asking it because you don't want to admit you don't know would be silly )

Clutch control pretty much only ever comes in at very low speeds, eg slipping it whilst keeping the revs up is useful for filtering slowly through traffic or when pulling out of T-junctions etc.

At speed, the clutch can smooth out the change when you're using engine braking, but these days that's only recommended for slowing down in slippery conditions, generally, when changing down you should dip the clutch, put in a touch more revs so the engine speed matches the road speed, then blend the clutch back in.

This avoids that sudden lurch when you take a lower gear, dump the clutch and the back wheel is suddenly running faster than the engine which could result in a destabilising lock-up, especially when it's wet.

[Jamieg285]

Jamie, it may be that your bike isn't as well fettled as it could be if you're suffering from a snatchy throttle response.
Are the carbs balanced?
Check you don't have excess slack in the throttle cables.

I'd been wondering about the throttle cables and adjustment, from the feel and having read other posts on here. Well there's definitely a problem now

Whilst looking at the throttle slack it appeared that the throttle wasn't returning properly.I pushed it a bit to try and see how much and it just kept going. Not sure exactly what I've done, but there is zero throttle return.

I've started to investigate, not sure if it's a problem with the lower cable or with the grip itself. Hopefully I'll work it out soon, as I can't use it till it's sorted.

[DryRob]

check your bar end weight, when I replaced mine the new one was catching the throttle grip a bit.