landing gear on a fazer

[His Dudeness]

i am doing an engineering project the aim of which is to design and build a landing gear style system for a fazer that would allow someone with limited mobilty due to injury to ride a bike again. the idea being that there is a set of outriggers that drop when the bike is at low speed or stopped and keeps the rider balanced. something along the lines of this http://www.koeltgen.de/fileadmin/content/Download/R1200R_FBS.mov i was wondering what people opinions are of the idea? or if anyone has experience of this sort of thing? thanks for any input

[Grahamm]

Never seen that before, but it's a nice idea.

I'd think the easiest thing to do would be to link the "landing gear" control to the speedo so if it drops below eg 5mph, the gear deploys, although you might want a backup attached to an accelerometer (or maybe the brake system, I don't know) such that it would also deploy under very hard braking in case the speedo doesn't "catch up" in time.

[Dave G]

Been on a few Foc-u rideouts, an it be good idea to have them deploy on approach to every bend judging by some of sights I've seen...

[BIG MAC]

Just think Dave if them extra wheels has brakes on em

[imax]

Looked into something along these lines after an accident at work left me unable to ride properly (Thankfully a couple of ops have sorted things)
How about something like these?
http://trikealternatives.com/ghostwheels/

[His Dudeness]

Never seen that before, but it's a nice idea.

I'd think the easiest thing to do would be to link the "landing gear" control to the speedo so if it drops below eg 5mph, the gear deploys, although you might want a backup attached to an accelerometer (or maybe the brake system, I don't know) such that it would also deploy under very hard braking in case the speedo doesn't "catch up" in time.

 
 yeah it would be possible to add some sort of logic controller into it but from the sites i've read its seems that people prefer to just have a switch that allows them to control when the landing gear deploys. i might have to add in some sort of safety feature that tells the rider if they've gone below a certain speed and the landing gear isn't down

Looked into something along these lines after an accident at work left me unable to ride properly (Thankfully a couple of ops have sorted things)
How about something like these?
http://trikealternatives.com/ghostwheels/

thats an interesting site. i'll have a look at that. good to hear you're back on your bike

[His Dudeness]

oh yeah the bike thats in the first post cost 13 grand to modify     so does anyone know a place for cheap pneumatics? 

[dazedandconfused]

Check out videos on the Peraves Ecomobile. I believe they use a Starter motor to deploy the wheels. Got to be cheaper than pneumatics and looks just as fast.

[DILLIGAFF]

With all the potholes around there is no system which would be 100% safe 


May be better off with a 3 wheeler??

[His Dudeness]

Check out videos on the Peraves Ecomobile. I believe they use a Starter motor to deploy the wheels. Got to be cheaper than pneumatics and looks just as fast.

 i was thinking i could use 12v electric actuators if the pneumatic system was too dear. but that ecomobile is pretty cool. i'll have a closer look at that.

With all the potholes around there is no system which would be 100% safe 


May be better off with a 3 wheeler??

thats true potholes are a problem and that will have to be considered in the design. but the way im looking at it is if you anyone is riding along on a normal bike and they stop and put their foot into a pot hole they're going to fall over. its just the nature of a two wheeled vehicle. the rider just has to plan ahead and ride according to the conditions of the road.

[Sunny Intervals]

I would say electric has to be the way to go.
pneumatics will need a store of air, so a reserve tank, way of charging the tank compressor and associated PTO from engine/gearbox to drive compressor , condenser/air dryer,
And that's before you start work on the legs.

If you do go pneumatic route will you be going with air pressure forcing against spring pressure to lower the legs, kinda like truck spring brakes where air pressure holds brakes off, so if there is an air failure  the brakes are applied, or in your case air failure raises the leg.
 or air actuation in both directions.
Spring pressure dropping legs if there's an air failure, I haven't decided if it is a bad of good thing yet may be good if the spring is sufficiently soft to allow bike to lean into bend without tripping it up.
The geometry of the wheel and leg would have to take into account the possibility of drop at different angles of lean.
But then again soft spring pressure may not be enough to support bike and rider

I'm just thinking out loud 
Lot of stuff to think about, I wish you luck 

[paul1606]

Would it be possible to mod the center stand(small wheel either side)  instead of designing a new outrigger & adding to the weight ?

[Sunny Intervals]

I forgot to say in my last post 

Have you visited the N.A.D.B site

http://www.nabd.org.uk/index.htm

They have a forum

http://forum.disabledbiker.co.uk/

I'm sure they'll be interested, and will be willing to give you some ideas about specific needs and possibilities

[His Dudeness]

I would say electric has to be the way to go.
pneumatics will need a store of air, so a reserve tank, way of charging the tank compressor and associated PTO from engine/gearbox to drive compressor , condenser/air dryer,
And that's before you start work on the legs.

If you do go pneumatic route will you be going with air pressure forcing against spring pressure to lower the legs, kinda like truck spring brakes where air pressure holds brakes off, so if there is an air failure  the brakes are applied, or in your case air failure raises the leg.
 or air actuation in both directions.
Spring pressure dropping legs if there's an air failure, I haven't decided if it is a bad of good thing yet may be good if the spring is sufficiently soft to allow bike to lean into bend without tripping it up.
The geometry of the wheel and leg would have to take into account the possibility of drop at different angles of lean.
But then again soft spring pressure may not be enough to support bike and rider

I'm just thinking out loud 
Lot of stuff to think about, I wish you luck 

Excellent post there sunny! Theres a lot to chew over alright. The fail safe is a tricky one. You could make a case for landing gear up and for landing gear down and both would be valid so I'll have to think about that one carefully. As for electric vs pneumatic. The electric is definitely simpler as it should run directly off the bikes charing system but I have been watching a lot of videos on them and they seem to extend and retract quite slowly compared to the pneumatics. I'm only at the start of the project so I'll have to way up the pro and cons of both systems. I did see this pneumatic system which looks like it could work on a bike. But i'm hoping to talk to a pneumatics expert during the week and I'll see what he thinks. Here is the system its not exactly what I would need but it gives an idea of whats possible
 

[His Dudeness]

Would it be possible to mod the center stand(small wheel either side)  instead of designing a new outrigger & adding to the weight ?

yeah i suppose that could be possible. i'll definitely be looking at that general area of the bike for mounting whatever i make. i dont know if the stand itself would be up to the job though.

[His Dudeness]

i didn't know about that forum sunny. cheers

[Grahamm]

The fail safe is a tricky one. You could make a case for landing gear up and for landing gear down and both would be valid so I'll have to think about that one carefully.

I'd think that "gear down" should be the failsafe, ie positive pressure (or whatever) against the springs would be required to hold the gear off the road because failure without that would mean the bike is likely to fall over at very low speeds or when stopped and take the rider with it.

The only time this might possibly be dangerous is if the failsafe was activated when leaned over in a bend, but unless the springs are extremely strong, I don't see that they could force the bike upright, so it wouldn't be until the bike returned to full vertical that the gear would be fully engaged in the "support" position.

Although I would add a big red light and warning buzzer if the failsafe was engaged to warn the rider if they hadn't noticed!

[Dave G]

Omfg! Think, if I had set of these, I'd rather they fail me at at 5mph, an I drop off at standstill. Than having the fuckers risk deploying mid bend at 90, catapulting me into the oncoming! Believe me, that shit stings a bit!

[tomjimtom]

I don't really know all there is to know about this type of thing, way i see it:

if you just used weak springs to oppose the air pressure that pushes them up (only enough to push the wheels down, not enough to push the bike up) then it wouldn't matter if the bad boys dropped mid corner..., they wouldn't do anything until you got the bike upright. maybe have some sort of physical lock such as a pin on a cable attached to the handlebars? (i'm thinking like the catch on dollys of milk you see in supermarkets) for when the wheels are fully extended.


Or that might be completely in the wrong direction

[Sunny Intervals]

I really hate this thread, I knew I shouldn't have looked at it   
I even managed to resist looking the first couple of days, because I knew I would go off into a brain storm 
Had stuff floating around in my head for 1 night and a day now, and fighting the urge to do some fag packet sketch's.

To hold in position when up, so that they don't drop unexpectedly I considered Electra magnets.
Any mechanical locking device was just getting to complicated when trying to come up with a system to engage and disengage when required.

Have to done any load requirement calcs yet ?
You need to know have much force is going to be placed on a stabiliser leg.

IE the weight of Fazer 1000 plus rider will place on a leg at say 5 to 10 degrees off of vertical.
The leg will need to withstand the weight plus any other added weight/force placed on the stabiliser leg when the rider mounts dismounts.
If the rider has limited mobility they may need to mount by standing on a peg to get their leg over the bike, Horse mounting style.

Once to have found this out it should help you to find out what type of equipment would be suitable for you needs.

To deploy legs down rapidly I have been thinking of using the door struts, they will come in all sorts of length's and strength's.





all you need to do is do you leverage fulcrum/pivot calcs to work out mech advantage and deployment angles and all that stuff I trying not to think about 

I've come up with various configurations in my head so far for the struts supporting the wheel, but they are dependant on the forces that mat be place on them  and methods of operation they may be used 

I see a lot of maths in your future 

[The Rocketeer]

If you want kids laughing at you at every junction then I guess it's a pretty good idea. 

[Sunny Intervals]

ignore everything I just said, just looked at your video again 

I was thinking of  canter lever type legs.

now off to think about spirally machined cams. 

[His Dudeness]

If you want kids laughing at you at every junction then I guess it's a pretty good idea. 

i'll be sure to ask the lad in the wheelchair if he's worried about kids laughing at him

[His Dudeness]

thanks for all the ideas lads keep them coming! i'll add updates as i go.

[ReNcE]

Have a look on the Kent & Sussex Bikers forum, there's a guy on there doing exactly the same thing, and he's done it himself, and I dont belive it cost 1000's either