Author Topic: Fazer 1000 Suspension woes and more (Read 9381 times)

Trebus · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 August 2019, 09:34:13 am »

Kebab, is this what you used? https://www.solomotoparts.com/Race-Tech-Gold-Valve-Fork-Kit-for-FZ-1-01-05/ and how hard are they to fit for a reasonably competent DIYer?

Stinka · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 August 2019, 10:32:29 am »

Quote from: Trebus on 13 August 2019, 09:29:19 am

For all those that have had them reworked by whoever, are new springs / bushes (if needed) and oil enough to make a significant difference to the ride without the revalving? Or are they still choppy over bumps?

My bike is generally harsh at slow speed on shitty rough B roads, but once I’m flying it’s firm but it takes The sting out of high speed bumps 80-100mph. That’s what I wanted tho as I don’t hang about. It’s track bike hard and doesn’t dive much under braking. I’d probably have progressive springs and a proper revalve if you want proper smooth comfort for moderate speed touring

kebab19 · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 August 2019, 05:13:58 pm »

Quote from: Trebus on 13 August 2019, 09:34:13 am

Kebab, is this what you used? https://www.solomotoparts.com/Race-Tech-Gold-Valve-Fork-Kit-for-FZ-1-01-05/ and how hard are they to fit for a reasonably competent DIYer?

Yes, that's one of the kits, but not sure which one. With the Racetech kits you can buy the Compression valves on their own, Rebound valves on their own or both sets of valves together in one kit. The single kit's serial number is is FMGV S2047, but I bought the set with both compression and rebound valves - serial number FMGV S2047C. If you type S2047 or S2047C into ebay, you can see the kits for sale, such as item #192879930393.

The compression valve is actually pretty easy to replace - you don't need to separate the upper & lower stanchions, just pull the 8mm allen bolts out under neath the bottom of the lowers and lift the inner cartridges come out. After that, add some heat to get the originals off. You could also re-fit the original compression valves back on if for some bizarre reason you wanted to.
The rebound valves are more difficult, requiring drilling out / widening the inner cartridge rods and shortening the little oil damping rods that sit just under the fork caps. Not too difficult IMO but something to bear in mind.
You could just fit the easier compression valves, but I suspect that would further highlight the poor standard rebound effects even more...

Tim270 · « **Reply #28 on:** 19 August 2019, 11:28:06 am »

Right,

Finally got a MOT on it again after helicoiling the wheel/new disc/pads on the rear. Rebuilt forks back in, although K-Tech put a 10w fork oil in. Took it for about ~140 miles around the peak district.

Night and day difference from those knackered bushings... no more hard knocking through the bars and jerkyness. I am pretty happy with it now.

However, I can see down the road, wanting to improve the setup. I can really notice it wanting to run wide in tight corners, really have to consciously muscle into the turn more on some sharp bends. Now its roughly back to stock, id say for me, its still cant really handle small bumps/pot holes well at all, decent enough on good tarmac/fast roads, apart from the running wide in some circumstances.

up on Snake pass

https://puu.sh/E6sat.jpg

unfazed · « **Reply #29 on:** 19 August 2019, 03:02:46 pm »

From their present setting try turning the rebound two clicks in to hard and the compression 2 clicks out to soft.. Slow the rate of rebound is what I eventually did to stop the running wide issue

Mustang · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 August 2019, 07:27:39 pm »

I’ve taken my compression dampers out to 5 out from fully soft. It’s about the only way I can stand it on rough roads at modest pace. I’ve ktec 10.5 springs and 2 year old 10w oil

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 August 2019, 09:55:18 am »

Quote from: Mustang on 19 August 2019, 07:27:39 pm

I’ve taken my compression dampers out to 5 out from fully soft. It’s about the only way I can stand it on rough roads at modest pace. I’ve ktec 10.5 springs and 2 year old 10w oil

Do you mean 5 out from fully 'hard', ie max compression damping?

I ask because you should always start damping adjustments with the adjusters fully - lightly - seated and then back them out to decrease the damping. The reason is that most adjusters will still have several turns out available after reaching minimum damping, if that makes sense?

Mustang · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 August 2019, 09:39:12 pm »

Quote from: Falcon 269 on 20 August 2019, 09:55:18 am

Quote from: Mustang on 19 August 2019, 07:27:39 pm
I’ve taken my compression dampers out to 5 out from fully soft. It’s about the only way I can stand it on rough roads at modest pace. I’ve ktec 10.5 springs and 2 year old 10w oil

Do you mean 5 out from fully 'hard', ie max compression damping?

I ask because you should always start damping adjustments with the adjusters fully - lightly - seated and then back them out to decrease the damping. The reason is that most adjusters will still have several turns out available after reaching minimum damping, if that makes sense?

Hi mike, I backed out the adjuster to fully soft then added 5 clicks. I remember you saying they have too much comp damping as standard

Tim270 · « **Reply #33 on:** 28 August 2019, 04:08:03 pm »

Well, Ive taken it for ~600 mile trip camping in Wales and around England over the bank holiday weekend.

It started misfiring slightly towards the end of the first day, managed to rectify that by trimming the end off the offending HT lead.

The suspension, still not happy with at all. Its just so harsh and cant handle anything but perfect tarmac. Ive been toying with settings the full trip, and slacking off the front settings everytime just ends up with unacceptable diving under braking before I reach a plush ride. The rear im not sure is doing much of anything, cant feel it going through the stroke at all, very much a on/off feeling. R6 shock is on the cards, but the front honestly feels a _lot_ worse than the rear.

I think I need to look at new fork internals, but not sure where to start really. REALLY want to know its going to improve it before having to throw serious money at it.

Only other thing is the annoying buzz at 4.5k rpm, sitting at 70mph in top gear its nothing but irritating buzzing. Anyone played with the gearing to get around this?

https://puu.sh/Ea8nE.jpg

kebab19 · « **Reply #34 on:** 28 August 2019, 05:31:57 pm »

Quote from: Tim270 on 28 August 2019, 04:08:03 pm

The suspension, still not happy with at all. Its just so harsh and cant handle anything but perfect tarmac. Ive been toying with settings the full trip, and slacking off the front settings everytime just ends up with unacceptable diving under braking before I reach a plush ride. The rear im not sure is doing much of anything, cant feel it going through the stroke at all, very much a on/off feeling. R6 shock is on the cards, but the front honestly feels a _lot_ worse than the rear.

I think I need to look at new fork internals, but not sure where to start really. REALLY want to know its going to improve it before having to throw serious money at it.

https://puu.sh/Ea8nE.jpg

Sounds like nothing less than a revalve or replacement of the compression & rebound valves, along with springs appropriate for your weight will do the job for you. If sticking with the standard forks, RaceTech are cheapest but only if you can DIY (fork springs & valves about £400). After that, Maxton & K-Tech charge between £600-725 to alter existing valves or replace them respectively.
The R1 fork conversion was / is quite popular but if unlucky the forks may need rebuilt and you may need to re-spring them to cope with the heavier Fazer.

Although biased, I found my R6 5SL fork conversion to be the most cost effective fork option, although I'm not sure how standard the internals of my R6 forks were:https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/fazer1000/r6-forks-non-usd-for-gen1-t4229.htmlIf you sourced the right set, could be as cheap as £200 to convert, but the quality of second-hand forks are always a bit of a gamble...

Trebus · « **Reply #35 on:** 28 August 2019, 06:11:06 pm »

Maybe changing the springs would help? I’m still undecided what to do. It sounds as though the MCT service only involves cleaning out and new oil/ springs so could do that myself but it would still be £100+.

kebab19 · « **Reply #36 on:** 28 August 2019, 07:50:30 pm »

Just a final say on my own FZS1000 front-end experience, which unfortunately has been considerable.
First FZS1000 owned 2009-2013

Ravenrider spring mod & 5w oil. Too Harsh
Hyperpro springs and 2.5w oil. A bit of an improvement over standard, but not enough for me.
4VX R1 fork conversion. Much better, but standard springs were soft. Ordered linear springs.
5JJ R1 forks with Ohlins internals & the linear springs. Popped up whilst I was flush so went for 'em. Perfect, but I wasn't working for a while & ran out of money around 2012, so had to sell them again.
5SL R6 forks. Very good compared to standard Fazer forks, but standard Japanese valving is never as good as aftermarket stuff.

Current FZS1000 2017-present.

Linear fork springs & 2.5w oil. Damping felt harsh.
Stripdown of forks, new bushes & seals then linear springs back in with 5w oil. Still felt harsh no matter what way I turned the dampers. Realised that the damping valves were the problem.
Racetech Compression & Rebound valves, along with 5w, then 7.5w oil. Rebound is perfect, still tinkering a bit with compression settings hence fork oil changes.

I'm probably a bit fussy over forks... but there is no getting away from the fact that on bumpy roads the standard valving is poor. Different weight fork oils can mask this but cannot cure it.

Tim270 · « **Reply #37 on:** 28 August 2019, 09:00:45 pm »

Cheers for that mate. Does seem like a minefield....

I think if I go for new internals on the stock forks im going to end up at the budget of R1 + springs. So R1 seems to make the most sense then.

ogri48 · « **Reply #38 on:** 29 August 2019, 11:28:53 am »

I honestly think youve been unfortunate and not caught it in time, and the internal walls of the outer leg have been too worn by the bushes. My 04 with the mct set is one of the best handling bikes ive owned. perhaps the r6 front end is the way forward. really sorry youve had this grief and expense, they really are superb bikes but they are getting older now

Mustang · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 August 2019, 08:24:08 pm »

Aren’t the R1 and R6 forks shorter than stock though? How do you overcome this?

Tim270 · « **Reply #40 on:** 30 August 2019, 02:22:25 am »

Either accept it, or get spacers for the top of the forks...

Which leads me to, is anyone still making the upper tripple spacer and the USD spacers? Everything else seems fairly straight forward.

kebab19 · « **Reply #41 on:** 30 August 2019, 06:04:21 pm »

Both R1 and R6 forks are indeed shorter than standard forks: the first picture of my R6 5SL fork thread shows the three forks lined up together. But reduced suspension travel stops the R1 / R6 setup smashing the radiator and other front-end parts. The alternative front-ends will however sit an inch lower, which improves the handling but reduces comfort.

Standard FZS1000 forks have 140mm of suspension travel. The alternative 2003-2004 R6 5SL forks only have 120mm of suspension travel, which offsets the forks being shorter.

Mustang · « **Reply #42 on:** 30 August 2019, 10:07:55 pm »

Quote from: kebab19 on 30 August 2019, 06:04:21 pm

Both R1 and R6 forks are indeed shorter than standard forks: the first picture of my R6 5SL fork thread shows the three forks lined up together. But reduced suspension travel stops the R1 / R6 setup smashing the radiator and other front-end parts. The alternative front-ends will however sit an inch lower, which improves the handling but reduces comfort.

Standard FZS1000 forks have 140mm of suspension travel. The alternative 2003-2004 R6 5SL forks only have 120mm of suspension travel, which offsets the forks being shorter.

Good answer, thanks, I don’t want to reduce comfort. I have a fireblade for that

kebab19 · « **Reply #43 on:** 30 August 2019, 10:14:42 pm »

Quote from: Mustang on 30 August 2019, 10:07:55 pm

Good answer, thanks, I don’t want to reduce comfort. I have a fireblade for that

Ah yes, it's about 8 years since I've been on one of those torture racks

Then again, with the shorter R6 forks you can add 30mm riser inserts under the Fazer's handlebars and so restore the riding position back to standard...

Capt · « **Reply #44 on:** 29 October 2019, 09:48:25 am »

Quote from: kebab19 on 29 July 2019, 09:54:21 pm

From what you're describing, the fork lowers may have worn to an unacceptable level - there is apparently an inherent fault with the Gen 1 forks, with the lower fork cartridge / fork lower wearing against the fork springs and the fork oil then turning to abrasive sludge. There's a great thread about it here on the FZ1OA site (hopefully you can view it without having to create an account):
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126071&highlight=gen+fork+wear
This problem is exacerbated by not changing the fork oil regularly and the wear becomes so bad that you can apparently feel knocking sensations coming through the forks, almost like the head bearings have gone?
If this is the problem you may well have to replace the front forks, whether they be another pair of standard units (risk of replacement forks having the same problem), R6 5SL right-way-up forks as I fitted to mine back around 2011 or early-ish R1 forks. The latter two options usually drop the front-end by over an inch, not necessarily a problem but something else to consider.

Interesting reading, do I assume then that OE forks upgraded by KTEC has completely removed this fault described or is just a temporary fix?

Tim270 · « **Reply #45 on:** 01 March 2020, 01:07:24 am »

Hey guys,

Just want to say thankyou for the input so far, with the rebuilt forks and a R6 shock the bike is already feeling quite a bit on its way to where I want it. No longer getting po-go'd out the seat over bumps!

Main thing im running into now is what I am pretty sure is the stock mixture/tune. The carbs are stock on this one, the idle is a little rough, feels like it never quite settles and surges a little. Having very noticeable feeling of a bad mixture doing ~20-30 mph in 3rd to 4th gear around town. Feels like its almost wanting to drop a cylinder and surging a little. Its not terrible, but it makes it feel quite jerky. Is this the stock condition of the fueling? hence the Ivans upgrade? Ive already had to snip one of the HT leads due to corrosion so that could be another source of the issue.

Could anyone comment if that feels the same as their stock fueling? or I have have a ignition/sync issue instead.

Cheers!

ogri48 · « **Reply #46 on:** 01 March 2020, 11:51:03 am »

I think theres a prob unfortunately, the two ive owned both ran lovely stock, so much so with the second one I thought it had been ivanised. the only time I had summat like your syptoms or at least similar was when it was overfuelling on one. easy enough to check, should be a cold pipe on one cylinder on tickover. mine was my own fault (not cleaned out properly after drilling for ivans) but I guess carb float height could be another reason

Trebus · « **Reply #47 on:** 01 March 2020, 02:58:04 pm »

Sounds as though there’s an issue. Been laid up with old fuel?

I was thinking of reviving this thread yesterday. Was going to ask how the forks were? Got some k tech linear springs to fit in mine but still torn on doing a revalve. There seems to be no instructions available for the K tech kits despite being able to buy them.

Tim270 · « **Reply #48 on:** 02 March 2020, 01:17:56 pm »

Quote from: Trebus on 01 March 2020, 02:58:04 pm

Sounds as though there’s an issue. Been laid up with old fuel?

I was thinking of reviving this thread yesterday. Was going to ask how the forks were? Got some k tech linear springs to fit in mine but still torn on doing a revalve. There seems to be no instructions available for the K tech kits despite being able to buy them.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Could be fuel, but my hunch is HT lead currently. Is there a best practice for getting at the plugs without removing the AIS/Rad? or best just to get on with it and drop the rad/ais to get in there.

I did't end up getting springs from K-tech, just bushes/seals/oil as I was going to wait to see how the R6 shock performed before doing front springs. I think once I get other issues sorted, I would be happy enough with just new springs in the front + the R6 shock. Its not perfect but most likely good enough for my need I think.

robbo · « **Reply #49 on:** 02 March 2020, 02:23:15 pm »

It's a tough job doing the plugs if you've still got the ais fitted. Most people junk it to make servicing a lot easier. Quite a cheap mod if you've got the time.