Author Topic: Fazer 1000 Suspension woes and more (Read 9370 times)

Tim270 · « **on:** 28 July 2019, 01:43:45 am »

Hello gents!

Looking for some guidance.

I have a 1st gen 2005 fazer 1000. 30k on it, completely stock apart from a slip on.

Having a big problem since I got the bike, the front end is constantly bucking and juddering. Feels like having a chain with a bunch of hard spots in it(not the case), but I am pretty positive its the front forks. They cant seem to keep up with any small bumps in the road at all and giving a really jerky ride.

I have changed the oil (to 5w) and it helped a fair bit, but going softer on all the settings made it so divey during braking I had to adjust it back to being harder (and back to reacting to every tiny undulation in the road). When I rebuilt them, the fork caps had a bunch of witness marks somehow (??). The fork travel felt notchy at the top of the stroke pumping them by hand.

Is it worth rebuilding the stock forks with new bushings, or just bite the bullet and move to the R1 front end? I cant decide to if its worth throwing money at the stock setup to try and fix it or just move to new forks.

Any input would be much appreciated. Bike is intended for touring, It is basically a boneshaker even over smooth tarmac, throwing me out the seat over any serious pot holes (coming the conclusion to move to a better rear shock.) Im about 11 stone/70kg with gear if it helps.

Cheers!

unfazed · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 July 2019, 10:40:00 am »

Sounds like to much compression damping, try these as a base setting and work from thereFront: drop forks 5mm through yokes.
Compression: five turns back from max.
Rebound: six turns back from max.
Preload: maximum.
Static sag: 24mm.

Rear: compression three turns back from max.
Rebound: maximum.
Preload: 10mm of static sag

Stinka · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 July 2019, 12:08:03 pm »

I just got mine sorted, it was dangerous . Had the forks rebuilt with stiffer ktec springs by bikerz in stoke. Firm but comfortable. Fitted early bronze s1000rr shock, easy job, and it’s awesome now. Rear is an inch higher too

kebab19 · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 July 2019, 04:36:20 pm »

General rule: the longer you're keeping the bike the more you should consider investing in the suspension.

Plenty of rear shock options all over this website.
Forks - if you stick with the standard compression / rebound damping units and standard springs, the front will never feel great no matter what way you twiddle 'em. There's the cheapo RavenRider fork mod but it sounds like your issues are coming from the damping as opposed to the fork springs.
Hyperpro springs and 2.5w oil (with reduced air gap of 130ml) is the best cheap option for the standard forks: probably £150 about but with 30k up on the clocks you might also need to replace the bushes & seals - more like £225.

If you spend more money you can go Racetech dampers & linear fork springs for around £400 (if you fit them yourself) or £600+ for or Maxton to re-do your forks. Disturbingly, Maxton appear to mod the standard damping units as opposed to replacing them with something superior. K-tech use replacement damping units...
I rebuilt mine Racetech comp / rebound valves, bushes, linear springs & new fork seals but as you have to strip, change & modify the fork inners, it's not for the casual tinkerer. The modded forks are great now but it's a fair bit of effort.

After that your best option is a replacement front-end, but that ain't cheap either...

ogri48 · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 July 2019, 11:02:23 pm »

dude you need the forks cleaning out properly and new fork oil at the very least. At that age/miles if it aint been done the sludgy oil will be like grinding paste, and it will make the bushes wear the inner walls of the fork legs like a die grinder. If that happens they are scrap. Mines an 04, and its a yearly service thing now, and even with just 12 month old oil its focced. If you get them apart youll be able to look down the inside of the fork tube and see any distortion indicating wear. Best bet by far is to send the legs to Darren at MCT, he'll sort them proper.

Dynspud · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 July 2019, 10:21:27 am »

I'm 100% with Ogri on the MCT thing.
He took me down there to get mine done and it was just in time apparently as the sludge was indeed grinding the inner walls away.

New oil, bushes and springs replaced, together with suspension settings set, all as recommended by Darren at MCT, as he has done dozens of Gen 1 thous, and my bike now handles superbly.
Money well spent.

unfazed · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 July 2019, 11:20:37 am »

I agree with the sludge build up issue, completely dismantled the forks on the 600 and 1000 early this year as it had not been done for about 5 years. Took a fair amount of time to clean out the internals of the 1000 especially. When I out it all back together the settings I had on the 1000 just did not work even with the same oil. Took a while to get it right again. Especially trying to dial out the biggest issue fault with the standard bike, runing wide out of corners

The standard 1000 front fork springs are way to soft and this is the first port of call to sort out. Whether you go progressive or linear is dependent on your riding, 2 up progressive, always on your own linear. In general it is a matter of personal choice.

Tim270 · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 July 2019, 07:46:37 pm »

Cheers for the replies fellas.

Thanks for the settings Unfazed, I was around those already as I think that feels the best with how it is.

Yep I changed the fork Oil (5w) when I got it, it was fairly old but not the worst ive seen. I need it for a stint in euope in about a months time, by the replies I think I will go straight to fully splitting them with new bushings then.

How hard is the damper rod on to remove on these, ive diy'd a tool before on simpler forks but this looks a bit more complicated inside.

If lack of oil changes causes internal wear im wondering if my forks have already been damaged then. I noticed this too when I was changing the oil.

https://puu.sh/DH7dJ.jpg

Roughly how much did it cost for a rebuild from MCT? Spings, new hardware etc.

The main problem is still a constant juddering and bucking through the bars, even on fairly smooth tarmac. Its not that the settings are a little soft/firm, it just feels like something is fundamentally wrong/broken on them.

ogri48 · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 July 2019, 08:31:56 pm »

the last one I had done was the cb1300 last year, a good clean, some new bits(slides and bushes), fresh oil, new fork seals, new springs £440. Not cheap but it transforms the bike. A thorough clean out is essential. the oil drains out ok but leaves all the bad shite inside mate.

unfazed · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 July 2019, 09:28:33 pm »

Quote from: Tim270 on 29 July 2019, 07:46:37 pm

Cheers for the replies fellas.
Thanks for the settings Unfazed, I was around those already as I think that feels the best with how it is.
Yep I changed the fork Oil (5w) when I got it, it was fairly old but not the worst ive seen. I need it for a stint in euope in about a months time, by the replies I think I will go straight to fully splitting them with new bushings then.
How hard is the damper rod on to remove on these, ive diy'd a tool before on simpler forks but this looks a bit more complicated inside.
If lack of oil changes causes internal wear im wondering if my forks have already been damaged then. I noticed this too when I was changing the oil.
https://puu.sh/DH7dJ.jpg
Roughly how much did it cost for a rebuild from MCT? Spings, new hardware etc.
The main problem is still a constant juddering and bucking through the bars, even on fairly smooth tarmac. Its not that the settings are a little soft/firm, it just feels like something is fundamentally wrong/broken on them.

Before you start write down the number of clicks back from full hard you have set on the rebound adjuster.
The damper rod is easy to remove, but needs a 26mm socket, It does not require much to hold in in place while loosening the bottom bolt. I used a 3/8 drive 26mm socket duct taped to a straight length of chrome vacuum cleaner pipe. Held it by hand with nitrile gloves on. Same putting it back in, getting everything to line up was the slow part.Follow the instruction on the Haynes manual which are very good.
Wrap the threads of the upper damper rod with a split piece of petrol pipe and hold it with a vice grip to undo the nut all the rest is easy enough.
Note: Before refitting the rebound adjuster; Set the rebound adjuster half way on its adjustments, it has 42 clicks when of the forks, but only 21 are used from full hard to full soft.
When it is all back together wind the adjuster to full hard and back it off to your settings. Now you can be sure the adjuster is set to full hard not the end of adjustment before full hard is met. That ensures that both dampers are equal. Many put the adjusters back as they come off, but that can end up with both sides different and almost impossible to set the rebound correctly.

Before You strip the forks, check the following:1. The bearings are not worn. (Check this with the calipers off the discs and tied up)
2. The rim is straight
3. The tyre is on straight4. The wheel is balanced5. Headrace bearing are not tight or notched

kebab19 · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 July 2019, 09:54:21 pm »

From what you're describing, the fork lowers may have worn to an unacceptable level - there is apparently an inherent fault with the Gen 1 forks, with the lower fork cartridge / fork lower wearing against the fork springs and the fork oil then turning to abrasive sludge. There's a great thread about it here on the FZ1OA site (hopefully you can view it without having to create an account):
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126071&highlight=gen+fork+wear
This problem is exacerbated by not changing the fork oil regularly and the wear becomes so bad that you can apparently feel knocking sensations coming through the forks, almost like the head bearings have gone?
If this is the problem you may well have to replace the front forks, whether they be another pair of standard units (risk of replacement forks having the same problem), R6 5SL right-way-up forks as I fitted to mine back around 2011 or early-ish R1 forks. The latter two options usually drop the front-end by over an inch, not necessarily a problem but something else to consider.

Tim270 · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 July 2019, 05:41:19 pm »

Quote from: kebab19 on 29 July 2019, 09:54:21 pm

This problem is exacerbated by not changing the fork oil regularly and the wear becomes so bad that you can apparently feel knocking sensations coming through the forks, almost like the head bearings have gone?

Yes exactly, feels like bad headbearings or a chain with stuck links.

Yeah I think R1 front end is on the cards.... going to split and rebuild as I need it for a trip in a months time, ill update this thread with some internal pictures when I do it to see if/how bad they are.

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 July 2019, 06:20:03 am »

Having gone through stock forks, R1 front end and K-tech modded OE forks, I have to say I prefer the latter these days. Depending on which R1 forks you choose and how you install them, you could change the steering geometry a noticeable amount. Pitching the bike on its nose and shortening the wheelbase makes for much quicker steering but if overdone could make the steering too sharp and potentially twitchy.

Also, although later model R1 forks have better internals as standard than the OE Fazer forks, they're still not up to the quality of a K-tech or similar rebuild using single rate springs and quality damping valves tailored to you and the bike. You could still wind up having to mod the fork internals to get the ride quality that you desire.

IIRC, Maxton replace the OE alloy damper tube with a steel unit much less prone to wear, in addition to the valve work they do. It may be worth discussing your options with them and with MTC or K-tech direct before committing to the R1 mod solution.

Old-Git · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 July 2019, 08:45:45 am »

I had my forks rebuilt with Wilbers progressive springs, R6 shock on the back - no more pogoing. HTH

Tim270 · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 August 2019, 12:53:46 am »

Bit of a update

Finally got to the forks after having to get 2x helicoils to put a new rear disc on it.

Ive split and cleaned them. Not as bad as I thought they might be, there is some burring on the stop and some small here and there but no big grinding marks.

https://puu.sh/E3Hqu.jpg

The old bushings were absolutely shot. (new on the left)

https://puu.sh/E3Hqs.jpg
https://puu.sh/E3Hqt.jpg

Now I want to reassemble but I am stuck. Haynes says simply put the inner with the damper rod/oil stop and put the bottom bolt in.... I cannot for the life of me get the bolt to bite the thread. Not the problem of the damper rod spinning, I cant even get the bolt in. Ive tried many times carefully placing them together with not much luck.

The other problem I found was 1 of the replacement bushings seems bad. The replacement lower bushing on one stanchion, will now not go into the leg without a huge amount of resistance, way too much, would require hammering in rather than pushing in by hand. These were pyramid parts, and while I got OEM fork seals, feel like I should have got OEM bushings too....

Debating to get a new bushing, or take it all to k-tech dissembled and get them to put springs in and rebuild them.

kebab19 · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 August 2019, 06:29:13 am »

Although I've used them myself, I've heard of some Pyramid bushings having incorrect dimensions. Personally, I'd give the forks to K-Tech to finish them off before it sickens your happiness with the bike.

ogri48 · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 August 2019, 08:54:09 pm »

or Darren at mct in Stowmarket.
Im looking at a couple of fazer thous at the moment, and am factoring the cost of Darren sortin the front and re springing the rear with a k teck shock into the deals. I do a lot of my own spannering, but imho things like suspension are best left to the pros with the tools, experience and decent parts on the shelf. just my opinion feller, and as we all know, opinions are like arseholes, weve all got them

robbo · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 August 2019, 12:02:02 pm »

What a busy man Darren is. Tried to get a ride in appointment before my trip to the Bol in late Sept. His first available date was the day after I leave, which was a shame, but booked in for late October now.

Tim270 · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 August 2019, 12:47:38 pm »

Cheers guys,

Dropped the forks in at K-tech this morning, bit of a shock to the wallet... but thats just how it is. I am in the midlands so MCT is a bit of a distance for me.

Just rebuilding to stock at the moment, will go from there when I have more budget and time in the winter. I want to experience the front end without completely shot bushings to get a baseline of where I want to go with it.

Trebus · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 August 2019, 12:52:28 pm »

Thanks for the update Tim. I’m pretty much in the same position to the point where I’d considered selling the bike. So now need to decide what work to get done on the forks. Happy doing bushes, seals and springs myself but won’t be messing with revalving DIY. As you say, the costs are a bit heavy on the wallet!

kebab19 · « **Reply #20 on:** 12 August 2019, 07:39:19 pm »

Another option is to replace both compression and rebound adjusters using Racetech's valves. Even despite the US import tax, they both cost me around £300, plus about £100 for a set of K-tech linear springs. But that depends on your competence twirling spanners to save money here.The basics (bushings, seals etc) also need to be right too or it's a waste of effort. So more like £500 to sort the front properly.

ogri48 · « **Reply #21 on:** 12 August 2019, 08:10:14 pm »

be worth it guys. a fazer thou with a sorted front end is utterly pukka

Mustang · « **Reply #22 on:** 12 August 2019, 08:57:25 pm »

Quote from: Tim270 on 12 August 2019, 12:47:38 pm

Cheers guys,

Dropped the forks in at K-tech this morning, bit of a shock to the wallet... but thats just how it is. I am in the midlands so MCT is a bit of a distance for me.

Just rebuilding to stock at the moment, will go from there when I have more budget and time in the winter. I want to experience the front end without completely shot bushings to get a baseline of where I want to go with it.

You could have gone to biketek Tamworth, he did my fireblade forks. All new bushes and seals for £130

Stinka · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 August 2019, 08:55:43 am »

Bikerz in stoke did my knackered forks with ktec linear springs for £205 all in

Trebus · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 August 2019, 09:29:19 am »

For all those that have had them reworked by whoever, are new springs / bushes (if needed) and oil enough to make a significant difference to the ride without the revalving? Or are they still choppy over bumps?