Date: 28-03-24  Time: 19:36 pm

Author Topic: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions  (Read 1779 times)

F4celess

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Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« on: 01 July 2019, 12:38:16 pm »
Do you kill the ignition when stopped for a prolonged duration while waiting at traffic lights, junctions, etc?

Was watching a youtuber who appeared to do this - however he did have quite a loud exhaust, so perhaps he does this as not to draw attention to himself (or kill the hearing of pedestrians walking by)... !?

However it would serve to save fuel plus your clutch (if you hold it in gear while waiting), plus more environmentally friendly :) .
Any detrimental issues doing this? - would be effective like the automatic stop/start feature on some new cars.

Jamieg285

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #1 on: 01 July 2019, 12:54:53 pm »
Not sure I would trust it to always restart myself.


On a vehicle where it's been designed to do it is one thing, all the various components will be designed to cope with the constant restarting, plus they have sensors/brains to detect when to not do it and let things recover.


I'll stick to letting it idle.

robbo

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #2 on: 01 July 2019, 01:00:31 pm »
I would kill the engine for a level crossing. I suppose it could be useful if you've just got caught at a major 5 way junction and you know the sequence order of the various sets of lights. Personally I never sit in gear, just wait for the other set of lights to go amber before engaging gear. Stems from a lifetime of trying to be mechanically sympathetic. No doubt doesn't apply to modern bikes, but then I'm a dinosaur :lol .
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fazersharp

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #3 on: 01 July 2019, 01:14:33 pm »
On a vehicle where it's been designed to do it is one thing, all the various components will be designed to cope with the constant restarting, plus they have sensors/brains to detect when to not do it and let things recover.
Yep this is right.
When I can I filter to the front so never seem to wait long anyway after all I am filtering because the lights are red and there is a queue so by the time I am at the front the sequence is just about ready for green.
I am not convinced at all about start stop - when it starts there is a burst of extra fumes - Isn't there ? as opposed to gently ticking over. Also when on a downward hill in queuing traffic in the car I stay in neutral and let gravity do the work but with a stop start you can not do this as it stops when in neutral or is there sensors that know the wheels are turning otherwise without the enging you have no steering.     
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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #4 on: 01 July 2019, 05:28:59 pm »
Quote
Do you kill the ignition when stopped for a prolonged duration while waiting at traffic lights, junctions, etc?
Umm in a word no.  In the car I always hit the swtich to kill the annoying stop/start thing.
However if I had an MT10 I would. :lol

agricola

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #5 on: 01 July 2019, 06:38:29 pm »
Yep, I switch off at level crossings because its likely to be two trains coming from opposite directions, and ive been sat there 5 minutes before now. 4 cylinders at 1250 rpm for 5 minutes firing away is a cost i dont want

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #6 on: 01 July 2019, 10:55:46 pm »
Not sure I would trust it to always restart myself.


On a vehicle where it's been designed to do it is one thing, all the various components will be designed to cope with the constant restarting, plus they have sensors/brains to detect when to not do it and let things recover.


I'll stick to letting it idle.


Well said and +1
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demic77

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #7 on: 01 July 2019, 11:46:21 pm »
SWMBO has recently swapped her convertible Saab 9-3 for a Golf TDI DSG. We have manual Skoda Octavias at work with the same stop/start technology. Makes much more sense in the DSG car IMHO, vs the manual it seems clunky, annoying and just doesn't seem to work well with the gearbox. At work I turn stop/start off, driving her car I let it do its thing. On the bike, I'd kill it if I knew I'd be waiting ages; there's a level crossing just off the A59 near Airedale Hospital where you can sometimes be held for three trains in a row, I usually kill the engine (after filtering to the front of the queue) if I'm held at that crossing. For me it comes down to local knowledge; if I know I'm going to be held for a good while at a specific obstruction I'll turn the engine off, more so in hotter weather. Other than that I'd leave her idling, I feel I'd be hammering the starter motor, battery and alternator etc. doing much more work than it wasn't designed to do, i'd rather pay for a few pence more of petrol than several pounds for battery/alternator/starter motor work[size=78%].[/size]
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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #8 on: 01 July 2019, 11:54:28 pm »
Do you kill the ignition when stopped for a prolonged duration while waiting at traffic lights, junctions, etc?

Not at traffic lights (and certainly not at junctions), but I agree with others about level crossings.

What I'd do, though, is switch off the ignition, then switch on again. This switches the headlight off, but leaves me in position ready to fire it up as soon as the barriers go up, but without draining the battery with the headlight on.

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #9 on: 02 July 2019, 07:02:22 am »
SWMBO has recently swapped her convertible Saab 9-3 for a Golf TDI DSG. We have manual Skoda Octavias at work with the same stop/start technology. Makes much more sense in the DSG car IMHO, vs the manual it seems clunky, annoying and just doesn't seem to work well with the gearbox. At work I turn stop/start off, driving her car I let it do its thing. On the bike, I'd kill it if I knew I'd be waiting ages; there's a level crossing just off the A59 near Airedale Hospital where you can sometimes be held for three trains in a row, I usually kill the engine (after filtering to the front of the queue) if I'm held at that crossing. For me it comes down to local knowledge; if I know I'm going to be held for a good while at a specific obstruction I'll turn the engine off, more so in hotter weather. Other than that I'd leave her idling, I feel I'd be hammering the starter motor, battery and alternator etc. doing much more work than it wasn't designed to do, i'd rather pay for a few pence more of petrol than several pounds for battery/alternator/starter motor work[size=78%].[/size]

I was talking to a mechanic friend of mine the other day.. (& Ill caveat this by saying I was talking about my triumph T-Bird) & he was saying that starting the bike needs a minimum of 11.6v to start a bike, and it takes approx. 16 miles of riding to get the charge from starting to get the charge back into the battery. so constant stop starting eventually kills battery/rectifier/starter motor etc so I consider that, but agree if sitting at level crossings I will kill my engine as quoted previously sometimes can be held for 2 or more trains...
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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #10 on: 02 July 2019, 10:56:29 am »

My latest Mazda has i stop. That system uses combustion re-start. I think the starter motor plays only a minimal role with that.


It can be turned off in order to have the engine remain running continuously via a switch on the dashboard.

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #11 on: 04 July 2019, 03:52:07 pm »
For many years I've heard that most (80%) of the wear and damage in an engine occurs during start-up and shit down.

On shut-down, the very thin oil film over bearing surfaces etc stops being "circulated" and sits there between 2 extremely hot metal surfaces which don't have fresh oil replacing that in place, to cool them - it carbonises and loses it lubricating properties and leaves a deposit on the bearing surface that is not a lubricant.

On start-up, bearings and other engine surfaces, run with less than optimal oil coverage/oil pressure and so additional wear occurs.

I'm sure that hasn't changed, but maybe the make-up of oils has changed so that it's no longer the issue it used to be, but being an old Luddite, all I can see these stop-start systems systems doing is causing extra wear/damage to the engine.

I'm sure the only reason they were developed was so that car engines would automatically shut off during the laboratory testing process to determine the emissions levels for compliance reporting and vehicle approval  (basically it was a "cheat" just like the VW cheat, but only adopted by every manufacturer), with no real-world benefit or relevance. But now that it's been adopted though, it can't be dropped unless the testing process is changed, otherwise all the cars would fail to comply in the "lab-based testing" !!

fazersharp

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #12 on: 04 July 2019, 04:17:14 pm »
For many years I've heard that most (80%) of the wear and damage in an engine occurs during start-up and shit down.

On shut-down, the very thin oil film over bearing surfaces etc stops being "circulated" and sits there between 2 extremely hot metal surfaces which don't have fresh oil replacing that in place, to cool them - it carbonises and loses it lubricating properties and leaves a deposit on the bearing surface that is not a lubricant.

On start-up, bearings and other engine surfaces, run with less than optimal oil coverage/oil pressure and so additional wear occurs.

I'm sure that hasn't changed, but maybe the make-up of oils has changed so that it's no longer the issue it used to be, but being an old Luddite, all I can see these stop-start systems systems doing is causing extra wear/damage to the engine.

I'm sure the only reason they were developed was so that car engines would automatically shut off during the laboratory testing process to determine the emissions levels for compliance reporting and vehicle approval  (basically it was a "cheat" just like the VW cheat, but only adopted by every manufacturer), with no real-world benefit or relevance. But now that it's been adopted though, it can't be dropped unless the testing process is changed, otherwise all the cars would fail to comply in the "lab-based testing" !!
Exactly my thoughts too. I discounted some cars a couple of years ago because they had start stop, when I asked about a button to turn it off most car sales men could not tell me, one said "yes there is a button" but could not find one and then realised that the car did not have start stop in the first place ( I bought that car)
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Grahamm

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #13 on: 04 July 2019, 05:34:33 pm »
For many years I've heard that most (80%) of the wear and damage in an engine occurs during start-up and shut down.

I could see that for starting from cold, but I'd have thought that, for a warm start, it wouldn't be an issue.

fazersharp

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #14 on: 04 July 2019, 05:44:18 pm »
Isn't there a trick for bikes that have been long time stood-standing to pushy them in gear but ignition off to splash a bit of oil around - or something like that.
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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #15 on: 05 July 2019, 04:24:15 am »
For many years I've heard that most (80%) of the wear and damage in an engine occurs during start-up and shut down.

I could see that for starting from cold, but I'd have thought that, for a warm start, it wouldn't be an issue.


When starting from "hot", the oil sitting on the bearing surfaces has still carbonised and the engine has lost oil pressure. Starting from cold is worse, but using the same logic, starting even from hot still causes more damage than leaving the engine running - although, as others have said, if it was a hot day and I was waiting at a level crossing for a number of minutes, on an air-cooled bike, I'd switch off at the key (to avoid possible overheating).


I wouldn't worry with a watercooled engine, as the thermostat would kick-in the fan to keep the engine/coolant temperature at an appropriate level.

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Re: Manual Stop/Start at the lights and junctions
« Reply #16 on: 05 July 2019, 10:40:14 am »
At a level crossing in the winter I would leave the bike running and relish warming my hands on the lovely hot potatos called cam tops 
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