Date: 20-09-19  Time: 23:50 PM

Author Topic: Cornering  (Read 1933 times)

Steve3351

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Cornering
« on: 14 June 2019, 07:40:37 PM »
OK Foccers, we all want to go in deeper and come out harder...but how do u know when ur at or near the limit...?
Do u just keep pushing it until u slide off...or is there some warning signs, skipping/slipping.... :evil ????
am assuming a dry road and good tyres... :D

VNA

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #1 on: 14 June 2019, 07:51:00 PM »
The hero blob on yer foot peg is usually (at least it should be) the first thing to go down.
Or if you are riding a C90, the leg shield touches first, and if you don't back off the solid foot peg goes down often followed a split second later by you. :lol

Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #2 on: 14 June 2019, 07:57:11 PM »
Thanks for that very scientific analysis VNA.... :lol  I suppose that's a guide anyway...!!

BBROWN1664

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #3 on: 14 June 2019, 08:23:35 PM »
:agree VNA

Another way to check is to look at the chicken strips on your tyres. If they are wider than a couple of mm, you can try harder.
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Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #4 on: 14 June 2019, 09:15:06 PM »
Chicken Strips...??!! u mean the strip of virgin rubber between the shoulder and the main tread surface....?
mine are way too wide....... :\

mickvp

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #5 on: 14 June 2019, 09:35:08 PM »
Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more 😂

VNA

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #6 on: 14 June 2019, 09:40:05 PM »
 Yup that sounds like them.  I don’t have any on the rear.


One key thing to going round corners, in my humble opinion, is to understand how the bike goes round a corner.  You need to use the bars to control the bike.   Ie counter steer.


If you ain’t already doing this then google counter steering motorcycle and start reading and watching.  If I am trying to tell you how to suck eggs – then I apologise. :D
 

Steve3351

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #7 on: 14 June 2019, 10:57:51 PM »
yes well...I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...I have been trying trail braking, I think it helps the bike turn, rather than just slowing down on approach and off the brakes before turning.... 8)

Frosties

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #8 on: 15 June 2019, 12:31:25 AM »
yes well...I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...I have been trying trail braking, I think it helps the bike turn, rather than just slowing down on approach and off the brakes before turning.... 8)
Trail braking will help the bike turn (loads the front) but a balanced throttle and counter steer will help you more.
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.

Grahamm

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #9 on: 15 June 2019, 12:32:21 AM »
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...


It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".

Quote
whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...


Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea.

Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.

Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.

Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf

VNA

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #10 on: 15 June 2019, 01:23:06 AM »
 
Quote
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
It is, in that people are taught to lean into a corner.  By leaning to the left, you push on the left bar, pushing the front wheel to the right, which makes the bike go left.  So it’s not leaning that turns the bike but the pressure you apply to the bar by leaning.


It’s not until you understand it and practise it that it becomes instinctive, and for the first time become absolutely in control of the direction of your bike.


The only way a bike will change direction is by counter steering, and it’s all in your hands.


Trail braking with the front brake requires a firmer input at the bars as the front brake will make the bike want to sit up.  As Grahamm says care is required with trail braking – that why you see racers washing out the front now and again. 
 

YamFazFan

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #11 on: 15 June 2019, 07:33:14 AM »
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.
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darrsi

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #12 on: 15 June 2019, 07:42:42 AM »
The majority of bikers will do counter steering as an immediate reaction to doing the complete opposite to begin with.
As in, i want to go more left so i turn the bars left, then suddenly realize that didn't quite work out so you intuitively move the bars the other way which suddenly gives the desired results.
But if you don't understand the physics behind it then you would always naturally nudge the bars either way until you get where you want to go.


As for chicken strips, don't ever judge me by looking at my tyres, as my bike is for the majority part a commuter bike, so the thought of leaning it over at 10-20mph in London traffic, going to and from work, just to get rid of them like some sort of neanderthal dick comparison contest doesn't really do it for me. All i'm interested in is getting there and back in one piece.  :lol
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darrsi

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #13 on: 15 June 2019, 07:46:27 AM »
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Think speedway riders, that's the easiest example.
Going left around the track, but turning right. And the more right they turn the more the bike drops down making the turn sharper.
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Flooky

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #14 on: 15 June 2019, 07:56:03 AM »

I would go to a track day, or get a track tuition session, great fun and better than trying this stuff on the road.
The only way to feel the limit in relative safety.

YamFazFan

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #15 on: 15 June 2019, 07:56:58 AM »

So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Think speedway riders, that's the easiest example.
Going left around the track, but turning right. And the more right they turn the more the bike drops down making the turn sharper.


I'd always assumed that was just them because they were sliding on that shale stuff :rolleyes
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Frosties

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #16 on: 15 June 2019, 08:02:34 AM »
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


If you're going round a left hand bend and look down at your bars then yup they will be angled to the right.........at the same same as you've realised you've ploughed the hedges on the opposite side of the road and binned it  :lol :lol
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.

YamFazFan

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #17 on: 15 June 2019, 08:21:03 AM »
 :lol
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YamFazFan

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #18 on: 15 June 2019, 08:23:15 AM »

Watched a You Tube tutorial and it just looks like steering around corners to me.


I must be already doing it :)
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Frosties

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #19 on: 15 June 2019, 09:46:59 AM »
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.


Try riding in a straight line at about 30-40mph in the center of the road.....then just nudge the left bar forwards quickly and release, a bit like nudging a door open. The bike will quickly move to the left about 1.5 feet and return to a straight line. If you nudge the right bar forwards then likewise the bike will quickly move to the right.


Remember....JUST A NUDGE. The longer you nudge each side forward the further you will travel across the road.


Once you get the hang of it it's very useful for avoiding potholes, cats etc and then start trying it when cornering. Slowly, slowly fella.
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.

darrsi

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #20 on: 15 June 2019, 10:09:29 AM »
Another age old trick is if you're overcooking a bend at speed, or even simply going round a tight mini roundabout, look where you mean to go with your eyes beforehand and your bike will miraculously do whatever it needs to to get there.
On a mini roundabout for example if you literally turn your head to where you want to go, like i do on the way to work where i'm technically doing a U-turn due to a no right turn road, i find that the bike gets lower and i can really turn around in a smaller area because i'm looking back to where i'm aiming for, and there seems very little effort involved.
Whereas if i just navigate the roundabout by looking in front of me i've found that the bike takes a wider course, and in a more upright manner.
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BBROWN1664

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #21 on: 15 June 2019, 11:18:23 AM »
opening up the throttle mid bend will make you go wide.
closing the throttle mid bend will tighten up the turn for you.
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VNA

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #22 on: 15 June 2019, 11:51:57 AM »
 
Quote
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

Umm no.
Quote
If you're going round a left hand bend and look down at your bars then yup they will be angled to the right.........at the same same as you've realised you've ploughed the hedges on the opposite side of the road and binned it  :lol :lol

Umm yes. :eek
 
 
Quote
As for chicken strips, don't ever judge me by looking at my tyres, as my bike is for the majority part a commuter bike, so the thought of leaning it over at 10-20mph in London traffic, going to and from work, just to get rid of them like some sort of neanderthal dick comparison contest doesn't really do it for me. All i'm interested in is getting there and back in one piece.  :lol

Absolutely.  My short commute has a number of opportunities for a bit of lean.  Also I guess, for those obsessed with chicken strips probably the tyres fitted will make a difference.  My sensible PR3’s don’t have a particularly aggressive profile so maybe I am more likely to use the full width of the tyre.
 

Frosties

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #23 on: 15 June 2019, 12:31:20 PM »
Quote
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
It is, in that people are taught to lean into a corner.  By leaning to the left, you push on the left bar, pushing the front wheel to the right, which makes the bike go left.  So it’s not leaning that turns the bike but the pressure you apply to the bar by leaning.


Quote
So if you're going round say a left hand bend and look down at the handle-bars, they'll be angled to the right?.

Umm no.


The answer is YES, the bars will be slightly angled to the right.
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.

unfazed

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Re: Cornering
« Reply #24 on: 15 June 2019, 12:39:18 PM »
The opening the throttle and running wide can be dial almost completely by setting the suspension properly, usually happens because the rear squats and the forks return too quick changing the geometry and the bike goes wide.
Shutting the throttle loads the front but can unsettle the bike which is why a balanced throttle in the correct gear is less unsettling.

The 600 in standard guise was no way near as bad as the 1000 in standard guise for for running wide out of the bends if you power on the throttle

I presently run a Hagon rear shock with an uprated spring (Standard Hagon Spring was too soft) and Hypro progressive front springs with 15w oil. (I use progressive instead of linear because I do a lot of two up touring) The 15W oil in the 600 slows the rebound preventing the sudden unloading of the front and keeping it in line.

Took me quite a while to get it sorted on the 1000 because I was running standard front forks.
Considered changing the front end but when I finally got it working I kept the standard front end.
I have a S1000RR rear and Wilber progressive front again and 10W oil (Progressive because I tour two up on it also).

As some Foccers have stated previously the Hero Blobs at the end of the footrest are your guide.
Thankfully they fold and not dig in like the bikes I started riding back in the 70s. Scary foccing things,  solid footrests, no damping and ABS brakes (Anything But Stop) :lol :lol
Mostly it is about confidence in dropping the bike and believing it wont slide, but this also means reading the road conditions correctly.Being in the correct gear for the bend is also important and riding on the throttle through it this prevents the suspension loading on the brakes and unloading off the brakes and accelerating.Trail braking is useful but not really necessary if you are in the right gear for the bend.
Good practice for using the gear box is to use a good road with fast and slow bends you are familiar with and try riding it without using the brakes, just the gears for slowing down and balance the throttle riding through them. You will find  at the start dropping to low in the gears but it is all practice. It forces you to read the road and the vanishing point better. You will find you riding becoming smoother and quicker as your reading of the road improves. 
Most of us have a limit as to how far we feel safe to bank over and when we go in too quick we have a margin of error to allow us to bank over. unfortunately the inexperienced focus on the point they don't want to hit grab a handful of brake and go straight on to it. The experienced will trail brake gently bank over further and look at where we want to go.
One of the most difficult things to over come on track days is this margin of error, mostly because it take us out of our comfort zone.
The counters steering is definitely instinctive, but you can push it further than the instinctive amount, attached pic has Jason O Halloran  counter steering  :eek