Cornering

[Dudeofrude]

[quote author=Millietant link=topic=25373.msg299687#msg299687


My advice to Steve is to NOT ask such questions on a forum of street riders and amateurs, but go to a race school and get help from the professionals.


Running wide coming round corners is usually a result of the wrong line (known as tight-in, wide-out) and not looking at the exit point. Following the wide-in, tight-out approach to cornering, using late turn-ins (giving the opportunity for later, stronger, upright braking) initiated by counter-steering and going from a neutral throttle to gradual acceleration through the corner is what I have been taught is the right way to corner - and from my lap-time improvements, it really worked.


Not only that, the wide-in, tight-out approach means you have greater visibility around a corner, more time to react to obstacles and you can see your exit earlier - meaning you are riding more safely,  even if faster.


[/quote]

I'll also add that I think this is excellent advice.

[Millietant]

I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.

[Dudeofrude]

I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.

That's all fair and valid points. Maybe it's just as I'm so used to it that I cant see a problem with it.
Also maybe I came across with the wrong intention in the sense that I dont believe this is necessarily a method for super fast cornering, more for a (in my opinion) faster, safer cornering practise for the kinds of conditions I ride in.
As I spend most of my time riding through the Lincolnshire wolds I come across a fair amount of animals in the road ( dead or alive) And back when I first started riding i nearly came off after hitting a dead rabbits head in the middle of a blind bend. I was a novice rider at the time and did grab a fist full of front brake but luckily didnt bin it.
After that I started doing training days at Cadwell and attending the ride safe events as well as doing research about advanced riding online etc. That's when I discovered trail braking and started practising it more and more.
Now its second nature to me and i can honestly say its potentially saved my skin no end of time when I've been cranked over mid bend and theres suddenly a dead fox/badger/deer etc in the middle of the road.
Obviously it's not for everyone and that's cool. As light as we all stay rubber side down and get home safe 😊

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Millietant;

Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner.
 
 
Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.

If you brake hard approaching a turn, let the brakes go, and then throw the bike on it’s side.  Well think about it, the front suspension will be unloading fast just as you want it to load up again.  This will compromise your grip.  You need to trail the brake a little so the front will not unload just when you need full grip.


I’m not talking about braking whilst leaned over in the middle of a corner.  It’s about the progressive switch from baking to entering the corner.  As you begin to lean the bike you are progressively coming off the brake, and as I’m not a racer I’m completely off the brake long before the apex of a tight turn. 



 
I googled California Bike School and trail braking.

Long long article here on trail braking
https://www.facebook.com/californiasuperbikeschool/posts/trail-braking-is-a-technique-that-can-benefit-certain-riding-situations-the-inte/734032623295378/
 
 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

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[Millietant]

Struggling with the links VNA, but I agree with your comments about hard braking, letting the brakes go and flinging a bike on its side (and rough riding like that is never good on the street) - again its all about context - hard braking, controlled (but quick) release of the brakes and controlled turn-ins are all about smoothness.


My first CSS class had a session where we were instructed/taught to ride the bikes round the track without any brakes at all - that drove your focus on looking ahead and choosing turn in points. The difference in our lap times after a few goes at this was phenomenal. Smoothness in every aspect of riding is key to controlling traction.


Your description of what you practice as trail-braking is something that I interpret as totally different to what was shown in Dude's video - what you describe is great, as in smoothly releasing the brakes as you turn in.


CSS does teach that proper "trail-braking" is a great tool in certain circumstances, but for road riding and under the circumstances Steve described (i.e. Running wide in corners), trail braking, which as you mentioned earlier makes the bike want to stand up and run wider, would seem to be the exact opposite of what Steve needs to be doing.


As I said, I've been taught many times to get my braking effectively done before the corner and to minimise actions that would upset the suspension and tyres whilst leaned over mid-corner. In racing terms, I suppose the mantra of "to finish first, first you have to finish" is what underpinned this and teaching something that would make bikes run wide, to novices like me, would likely have resulted in lots of crashes. However, once you've mastered the basics then maybe it's time to start exploring the limits.


From what you've described of the way you corner and ride (which I agree with), I think it also shows that "trail-braking" means different things to different people, some interpret this as braking all the way from turn-in to the apex, which it seems is different to what you and I practice, which is why I would advise Steve to get face to face professional instruction, rather than taking advice from us amateurs on forums where context is easily missed or misinterpreted. Asking questions of the instructors in person is the best way to learn in my opinion.

[noggythenog]

This thread is really good, even if it is pants & we talk nonsense because through that comes so much more knowledge from others. I regret my mention of ships now but there was context in my speed loss through a corner from a small bit of roadcraft i did on 4 wheels.


Despite all of that i am a firm believer in some of the other principles & especially having the suspension neutral before turning.....i personally dont believe in the front suspension having to be dug in to corner well as I think both front & rear needs equal traction.....on a really long corner mid way round if you have loaded up the front purposely surely mid corner this has now returned to neutral but it doesnt suddenly break away into non traction.


If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner then i've never dared try it as i am so uncomfortable on my right foot on the bikes i have owned that i cannot comfortably hold my foot near the brake pedal never mind using it mid corner at a split seconds notice with finesse......also i feel that to do too many things in a situation overloads the brain and we cannot multi task, something will give & i think that the whole looking where you want to go not only helps the bike round but also psychologically commits the brain to success and commitment & i would say to use that instead of sharing it with braking.


I am in awe following trail brakers as i just cant do it but i also feel that they are already planning on trail braking most of the time before the situation requires it....almost like drifters kicking the back end out on cars......i just think that it is a style of riding rather than an emergency thing & i suppose with riding mostly being enjoyable then if thats what they enjoy.....why not......just not my style.....as i say i cant even get comfortable on a rear brake...we are all different.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 Sorry Millietant, I used to be able to post a youtube link nae bother.  Cannae get it to work at all now.
I have to say I don’t really think how I brake and corner.
For me applying the brakes mid corner is cos something bad is gonna happen if I don’t.  Always with braking, as you know, and even with emergency braking you need to apply force progressively.
I tried to think about what I was doing when I was out today.  And yup I trail brake all over the shop.  I’m not thinking about it, I’m doing it because it feels right and maximised stability and grip. 
But if I’m braking mid corner it’s cos I’ve focced up and I don’t think I’ll make the turn.
 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 

If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner.

I check the rear brake before an MOT just to make sure it’s still working.    Some times its handy for holding the bike on a steep hill.


The rear brake just isn’t something I use.  I can’t see how it would help cornering.



Like I said before, braking mid corner - for me - is cos I’ve focced up big time or something weird is happening right in front of me.  Front brake only and you are going to have to push really hard on the bar to keep the bike down whilst hoping it doesn’t brake away from you.  Not nice and to be avoided at all costs.
 

[Grahamm]

I agree with the Dude.  I think it’s part of normal cornering.  Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure.  By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.

Err, no, the point is the suspension is *supposed* to be unloaded as you go into the turn!

If you go into a bend with the suspension loaded, it's got nowhere to go if you hit a bump which could, in the worst case, cause the front to lose contact with the road surface.

With the suspension unloaded, you have a longer wheel-base and the forks can compress when needed, which gives you more grip and stability.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

 What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.


With trail braking you control the front suspension letting it unload gradually until it balances with the cornering load.


Trail braking is the smooth way to transition from braking to turning in order to maximise grip control and stability.
 

[Grahamm]

What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.

That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.

That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.

That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.

I've never riden on the track.  It's what I've leaned myself from years of riding.
And it's just simply a better way of riding.  Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?

[Grahamm]

Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?

If you were doing that, I wouldn't be arguing with you. But it's your life and your choice.

[fazersharp]

This thread is driving me round the bend 

[Dudeofrude]

This thread is driving me round the bend 

Hey at least it motorcycle related and nobody's getting threatened.... yet 🤣🤣

[VNA - BMW Wank]

This thread is driving me round the bend 

It's certainly had it's twists and turns

[Steve3351]

JANEY MAC...!!!!    clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!!      ....

[midden]

Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more 😂

Or a heavy foccer and don't need to lean so far 

[midden]

I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...

It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".

whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...

Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea.

Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.

Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.

Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf

Trail braking is not a BAD idea  if done correctly..... and trail braking doesn't replace counter steering. 

[Frosties]

Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"


Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only 

[coffee]

Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"


Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only 

you've got to have a level playing field,everyone must be on Honda Cubs, std, no tuning or slicks, quick shifters,anti wheely,etc.

[Millietant]

JANEY MAC...!!!!    clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!!      ....

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do it your way Steve, but if you really do want to ride properly-fast, get some advice from the professionals (not us lot) - unless you're a natural riding god already, you'll be amazed by how much quicker you will actually ride.


It's possible (nay....its undeniable) that making SMOOTH inputs (not slow inputs) is the way all the fastest riders do it - if you do a lap of Donnington/Silverstone on the back of either Ron or Leon Haslam, you'll be amazed at how smoothly they ride and how fooking fast they go with lean angles and corner speeds people like us can only imagine - and all the while they're reading MCN and riding with only one hand on the bars