Date: 28-03-24  Time: 12:48 pm

Author Topic: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff  (Read 2680 times)

fazersharp

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Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« on: 27 May 2019, 07:33:26 pm »
I deed to replace a little sound system and the one I am looking to buy has a Speaker power 20 W (10 W + 10 W)
But I already have speakers in position and I upgraded the wire to 42/0.15mm 3x6mm (whatever that is )My worry is using the in-situ speakers with the new system as I do not know what my current speakers power is. Looking down the back in an air hole thing I can see printed on the speaker I think it says 5W 8 ohlms but that is only on the small speaker as the bigger one has not got a hole. They are small at  20 x18x13
The online manual says this
Use the speakers only with the recommended system.If not, you can cause damage to the amplifier andspeakers and can cause a fire. Consult an approvedservice personnel if damage occurs or if there is a sudden apparent change in performance
The spec for the new system speakers is --- Speaker power 20 W (10 W + 10 W)So would it be ok to use the in situ speakers or would I actually get a better sound with the new spec speakers.I do not have any info on the old system. 


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mickvp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #1 on: 27 May 2019, 07:42:17 pm »
The important question is what is driving the new system? What is the output of your system (amplifier/hifi etc).

Upgrading 5W speakers with 10W speakers is not beneficial if your system is only outputting 5W. Ideally you want the RMS speaker power paired to the output of your device to get a reasonable performance without spending too much money.


darrsi

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #2 on: 27 May 2019, 07:55:15 pm »
Must be a model number of your current system you can look up and it will tell you the specs.
I'd be surprised if upgrading wires on speakers that small would make any difference at all either.
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #3 on: 27 May 2019, 08:01:12 pm »
The important question is what is driving the new system? What is the output of your system (amplifier/hifi etc).

Upgrading 5W speakers with 10W speakers is not beneficial if your system is only outputting 5W. Ideally you want the RMS speaker power paired to the output of your device to get a reasonable performance without spending too much money.
Thanks for the help. This is the system I am looking at getting, https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/audio-and-headphones/audio/hifi-systems-and-speakers/panasonic-sc-pm250bebs-wireless-traditional-hi-fi-system-silver-10146404-pdt.html?store=2272&&istCompanyId=bec25c7e-cbcd-460d-81d5-a25372d2e3d7&istFeedId=2928af81-b29b-476c-a180-ac5de265a98e&istItemId=xiawiqalw&istBid=t&srcid=198&cmpid=ppc~gg~0003%20(PLA)%20HOME%20AUDIO~All%20Products~Exact&mctag=gg_goog_7904&kwid=GOOGLE&device=c&ds_kids=92700036287779573&tgtid=0003%20(PLA)%20HOME%20AUDIO&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIntTyrqe84gIVyrvtCh0PVQAtEAQYASABEgLZfvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

  so not the hi end of sound. It is only for the kitchen and it is sort of buried in the wall which is why it needs to be that sort of size to replace the kaput one. Its a pantry that has its wall in the kitchen so it sits on a pantry shelf with its "face" flush to the kitchen wall giving the impression of a panel sound system (at least until you go for a tin of beans ) and open the door.

So is it ok to use lower power speakers with a higher power unit.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 08:01:53 pm by fazersharp »
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2019, 08:03:36 pm »
Must be a model number of your current system you can look up and it will tell you the specs.
I'd be surprised if upgrading wires on speakers that small would make any difference at all either.
I have tried but it is so old I can not find it - it is  a Fusion 001 cd player with radio.
Good point on the speaker wire up grade. The speaker wires that come with systems always look s crap to me - no better than bell wire and so when I installed the current system I brought the wire separately.   
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 08:05:41 pm by fazersharp »
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2019, 08:14:04 pm »
Here are the pictures of it below. So my plan is to chop it out ( its only plaster ) and replace with the new one but use my current speakers. One reason is that I do not think the new system will come with speaker wire long enough -- also it is hard wired into the new speakers so I can not just use the existing wire.The current system speakers has peg ? clips that the wire gos into at the back of the speaker.I probably brought it from either currys dixons or comet and is at least 15 years old
 
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 08:57:14 pm by fazersharp »
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mickvp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2019, 08:50:03 pm »
You should be able to extend the speaker wire on the current speakers without much hassle (might need to open them up mind).

It’s hard to say for sure if you can run the new unit with the old speakers (as you don’t really know what power the driver is rated to, only the tweeter at the top?). I would imagine it is fine but then if the speakers are 15 years old as well you probably won’t be getting the best out the new system either.

If it was me I would be trying to extend the wires on the new speakers and run with them. You could probably splice an extension o to the current wires without stripping the speakers part. For the amount of wattage running through them a simple soldered joint should be good enough).

fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2019, 08:55:12 pm »
You should be able to extend the speaker wire on the current speakers without much hassle (might need to open them up mind).

It’s hard to say for sure if you can run the new unit with the old speakers (as you don’t really know what power the driver is rated to, only the tweeter at the top?). I would imagine it is fine but then if the speakers are 15 years old as well you probably won’t be getting the best out the new system either.

If it was me I would be trying to extend the wires on the new speakers and run with them. You could probably splice an extension o to the current wires without stripping the speakers part. For the amount of wattage running through them a simple soldered joint should be good enough).
So if the new system speaker wire is not long enough what if I use the new speakers and their fixed at the speaker rear wire and roll it it up and clip it at at the rear of them and attach the wire end to the already installed wire coming out of the wall. Which is a thicker upgraded one. So that I am not buying extra wire that is as thin as the new system to attach to the new system to make it long enough which I could draw through the ceiling by attaching it too the current thicker wire that I would use to draw it through.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 09:01:51 pm by fazersharp »
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mickvp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #8 on: 27 May 2019, 08:59:14 pm »
Aye. That’s what I’m getting at. You’ll lose any benefit over the “thicker wire” which as Dazza said is negligible at this kind of power anyway. Might be worth thinking about cutting the wire short rather than coiling it. You can try coiling it like that but if you get bad interference odds are that’s where it will be coming from.

fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #9 on: 27 May 2019, 09:04:26 pm »
Aye. That’s what I’m getting at. You’ll lose any benefit over the “thicker wire” which as Dazza said is negligible at this kind of power anyway. Might be worth thinking about cutting the wire short rather than coiling it. You can try coiling it like that but if you get bad interference odds are that’s where it will be coming from.
Hmmm the problemis by cutting the wire I am voiding my warranty.


 Also glad you can still understand me because I also stoor my beer in the pantry - perfect temperature   
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Fazerider

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2019, 11:19:35 pm »
After 15 years use in a kitchen environment the old speaker cones are probably getting a bit soft, but I’d do a side by side comparison before deciding which pair to use.

darrsi

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2019, 06:18:20 am »
They are very low end speakers, the wire will be virtually irrelevant at that sort of power level, you could use mains cable and not know any difference. In fact at 5w i can see the cable you're using is probably complete overkill.


Speakers these days, apart from being new, are much more compact and the small fact that the new ones are double the output will make them sound much better than your old ones anyway.


The wires maybe fixed at the speaker end but shouldn't be at the unit end, so should be easy enough to extend, just try and get a similar wire thickness.
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2019, 11:10:59 am »
After 15 years use in a kitchen environment the old speaker cones are probably getting a bit soft, but I’d do a side by side comparison before deciding which pair to use.
Good point about the age of the speakers, when I took the front fabric cover off the plastic frame was so brittle the lugs crumbled and snapped. The speakers are high up the wall touching the ceiling on a bracket and the back of them is a bit sticky.
   
They are very low end speakers, the wire will be virtually irrelevant at that sort of power level, you could use mains cable and not know any difference. In fact at 5w i can see the cable you're using is probably complete overkill.
I am unsure what power my old speakers are all I can find is ink stamped on the back of the top tweeter is 5.W 8 ohms also on the back of the speaker wooded body there is a label that I think says 8ohms - but I have a scrwe hole going through it for my bracket. Would it make sense that 5W is 8 ohms.
Just thought of something, I can use my borescope that I brought after another one of my focer font questions. There may only be one speaker in the box and the other is fake.
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2019, 11:47:57 am »
Here are the photos from the boroscope after inserting through the port (learnt that it is not a hole ). The first one is the tweeter speaker that I can see by eye down the port and the second one is the lower bigger speaker but I do not know what the numbers mean. The 5W 8 ohms on the small top speaker is that just for that one and then to get the whole speaker power I need to add them both up.
The new system speakers are 2x10W =20w output from the amp ( is that the correct way to describe it )
Until the warranty has ran out on the new system I want to get away with using the old speakers if I can.
But what will happen if for example the old speakers are 5W but the new system is 10W. Also what about the other way around if the new system output was 5W but the old speakers were 10w
 
« Last Edit: 28 May 2019, 11:51:05 am by fazersharp »
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Fazerider

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2019, 12:22:01 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2019, 12:38:36 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.
Ok so I can have a more powerful amp than speakers but what about if the speakers are more powerful than the amp - would that damage the amp. I any case the equipment is either 5 10 or 20 W 
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darrsi

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2019, 01:50:15 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.
Ok so I can have a more powerful amp than speakers but what about if the speakers are more powerful than the amp - would that damage the amp. I any case the equipment is either 5 10 or 20 W


Either way it will probably distort the sound so you will no doubt turn the volume back down anyway.
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2019, 01:56:57 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.
Ok so I can have a more powerful amp than speakers but what about if the speakers are more powerful than the amp - would that damage the amp. I any case the equipment is either 5 10 or 20 W


Either way it will probably distort the sound so you will no doubt turn the volume back down anyway.
I do like it turned up to 11  :lol
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fazersharp

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2019, 01:58:52 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.
Ok so I can have a more powerful amp than speakers but what about if the speakers are more powerful than the amp - would that damage the amp. I any case the equipment is either 5 10 or 20 W


Either way it will probably distort the sound so you will no doubt turn the volume back down anyway.
I do like it turned up to 11  :lol
Would there be any issue in attaching the new speakers cable to the old and therefore having extra long wire. And should each speaker have the same length wire.
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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2019, 02:03:57 pm »

The matching of power ratings between amp and speakers is not a precise science.
Loudspeaker distortion is not as unpleasant as amplifier clipping so I prefer to err on the side of having a beefier amp (within reason). Any modern amp will have protection circuitry that cuts the output in the event of an internal fault, so the chances of the speakers bursting into flames is not worth worrying about.
Ok so I can have a more powerful amp than speakers but what about if the speakers are more powerful than the amp - would that damage the amp. I any case the equipment is either 5 10 or 20 W
No, you won’t damage the amplifier by driving speakers rated for a higher power, surprisingly the risk is actually to the speakers! If you don’t get enough volume there is a temptation that you’ll turn the amplifier up to the point where it distorts, this generates higher frequencies and can create enough to burn out the tweeter. You’d need to be a bit cloth-eared to do this, but it happens quite often.

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #20 on: 28 May 2019, 07:53:42 pm »
Thanks everyone for the help based on that I have brought the new unit only had time to test with its own speakers for now. But will do some tests soon
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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #21 on: 28 May 2019, 08:11:53 pm »



Speakers do not have any power - hence do not have a power rating. The quoted wattage figure is a nominal power handling figure.


Amplifiers have a power rating, typically quoted as an RMS figure, standing for root mean square. Sound waves (generated by an amplifier in terms of current) go up and down, so measuring these peaks and troughs meaningfully becomes difficult, hence taking an RMS approach, think of it as about 0.6 of peak or so, hence a 6W amplifier might actually produce 10W when run hard.


Clipping is what damages or 'blows' speakers. If the volume is turned so high that the amplifier cannot reproduce the required current peak then a prolonged 'flat top' peak is generated. Speakers react to peaks by vibrating - a peak will push a speaker driver outwards. A clipped signal asks the speaker cone to travel outwards and not return, something speakers don't like - hence damaging it. Think of it like taking a slap or a prolonged hard press against a cheek...


Given the above it should be clear that a higher rated (or bigger) amplifier is far less likely to damage speakers than a smaller one as it has more head room to produce accurate peaks without clipping.


In any case, just don't turn volume controls up beyond distortion levels and all should stay well.


Regarding your choice of system and budget, that money, if spent wisely and with some patience, will yield a little used separate amplifier and (say) tuner which will be night and day difference in sound quality. I have a really good tuner spare you can have for free for starters.



is it clean enough?

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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #22 on: 28 May 2019, 08:46:20 pm »



Speakers do not have any power - hence do not have a power rating. The quoted wattage figure is a nominal power handling figure.


Amplifiers have a power rating, typically quoted as an RMS figure, standing for root mean square. Sound waves (generated by an amplifier in terms of current) go up and down, so measuring these peaks and troughs meaningfully becomes difficult, hence taking an RMS approach, think of it as about 0.6 of peak or so, hence a 6W amplifier might actually produce 10W when run hard.


Clipping is what damages or 'blows' speakers. If the volume is turned so high that the amplifier cannot reproduce the required current peak then a prolonged 'flat top' peak is generated. Speakers react to peaks by vibrating - a peak will push a speaker driver outwards. A clipped signal asks the speaker cone to travel outwards and not return, something speakers don't like - hence damaging it. Think of it like taking a slap or a prolonged hard press against a cheek...


Given the above it should be clear that a higher rated (or bigger) amplifier is far less likely to damage speakers than a smaller one as it has more head room to produce accurate peaks without clipping.


In any case, just don't turn volume controls up beyond distortion levels and all should stay well.


Regarding your choice of system and budget, that money, if spent wisely and with some patience, will yield a little used separate amplifier and (say) tuner which will be night and day difference in sound quality. I have a really good tuner spare you can have for free for starters.

Thank you for your kind offer but the unit has to be a certain type to fit in the hole. Primarily for cds but just having a play I am enjoying being able to play utube music through the blutooth - all be it with quality issues with some of the uploads. I also listen to a lot of radio with some stations being only on DAB, I need the DAB facility, but I may need to extend the aerial when it is installed in its permanent position .  I don't think that you can see pictures if you are on a phone but I have added some pictures in my other posts.
I am guilty of cranking it up but back off if it distorts the sound because it sounds rubbish but I did not know that it is also damaging the speakers.
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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #23 on: 28 May 2019, 09:56:27 pm »
On comparing the old set and new set of speakers they are about the same size but my old ones have a tweeter and woofer and a port at the back but the new ones only have 1 speaker (cone) and in the place of the tweeter it has a port in the front.
 So on paper without a sound test which speakers would be better. My old ones are about 15 years old. I tend to find the older stuff is usually better made. 
 
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Re: Focer Font of knowledge speaker power RMS and stuff
« Reply #24 on: 29 May 2019, 06:15:36 am »



I think maybe your best option here is to demolish your house and build another one from scratch set around your new music system.
Makes perfect sense to me.  :)
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