Date: 28-03-24  Time: 12:47 pm

Author Topic: Pilot screw  (Read 4841 times)

Garfeild

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Pilot screw
« on: 11 May 2019, 05:43:36 pm »
I’ve got a  2003 fazer600 tickover is a bit lumpy, it seems that it’s running on 3 with no 3 exhaust pipe not getting hot as quickly as the others, ignition wise all is ok, new plugs fitted all sparking


So got my carbtune all set up, and what I found is that no 3 didn’t move off minimum setting with the other 3 at various settings.
I managed to balance 1&2, then went to do 3&4 but again I couldn’t get no 3 to alter, I then set the other 3 to no 3 to try and get it to run smoothly
I’m wondering if the pilot screw is not set properly, but where are they? The manual shows a view, but it’s a joint manual with the thundercat, and it of course shows the cat carb not the fzs one
Anyone got a pic of where the pilot screws are?
TIA

bandit

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #1 on: 11 May 2019, 08:53:20 pm »
Use the download section,click on Downloads top left, download FZS600 workshop manual. It's in the carburetor section, they are under each carb facing up outside the float bowls.  Smile
« Last Edit: 11 May 2019, 08:56:57 pm by bandit »

bandit

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #2 on: 11 May 2019, 09:09:50 pm »
Found this posted shows what to clean but one of the pics shows the fuel screw (pilot).
https://totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/ausertech/Carb%20Cleaning/Carb%20cleaning%20101%20with%20pics.htm

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #3 on: 11 May 2019, 10:50:29 pm »
Thanks, now I know what I’m looking for il try and check the setting on those in the next couple of days, no3 looks like it’s a pain to get to, possibly remove starter motor?

bandit

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #4 on: 11 May 2019, 11:43:53 pm »
When you adjusted the screw for 3 & 4 could you get 4 to match 3, if so then turn the middle screw to try & match 1 & 2  &  3 & 4.
Here is a write up on balancing & throttle position sensor settings. Also recheck the throttle position sensor settings after balancing also.
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=91.0
« Last Edit: 12 May 2019, 12:17:29 am by bandit »

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #5 on: 12 May 2019, 06:02:46 am »
Thanks, I’ll see if I can print that out, I already knew what the process was, but didn’t know the TPS had to be set before and after.

Fazerider

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #6 on: 12 May 2019, 09:32:22 am »
Thanks, now I know what I’m looking for il try and check the setting on those in the next couple of days, no3 looks like it’s a pain to get to, possibly remove starter motor?

Yes, moving the starter is the easiest way to get at the No.3 pilot screw.
I’d recommend getting a bit of clear tubing to check the fuel levels in the float bowls too. It’s rare for a float to need adjustment, but quite common for the O-ring around the valve to fail and cause flooding.

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #7 on: 13 May 2019, 11:58:04 am »
Update
Redid the process again this morning, was able to take a bit more time as I’ve got the day off, took the starter motor off, and set all pilot screws to 2 1/2 turns out, as in the Haynes manual, got everything set up, I found I could just prop the tank up, like a car bonnet, using a bit of plastic waste pipe with notches cut in The ends to secure it against whatever shape it touched at each end ( I’m a plumber, so got odd lengths of all sorts of pipe laying around )
Made sure I had the carbtune in a dead vertical position, did TPS, warmed up and found no 3 was way out, 1&2 needed a little adjustment 3&4 needed a big adjustment, then 1&2/3&4 needed a big adjustment.
So, after that it ticked over a lot better, sounded a lot smoother and picked up on the throttle a lot better, not been out for a ride yet, knees a bit sore as I did a 45 mile charity cycle ride yesterday, so I’ll check that in due course.
Thanks for all the help 👍

BBROWN1664

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2019, 08:04:21 pm »
all pilot screws to 2 1/2 turns out, as in the Haynes manual

The Yamaha manual in the download section says 2 turns.Personally, I have never had to adjust them.
Another ex-Fazer rider that is a foccer again

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #9 on: 28 May 2019, 04:11:58 pm »
It says for the 2002/03 bikes that it should be 2 1/2 turns, but 2 turns for the older bikes, I’ve just been out and started it from cold, and it’s back to sounding like it’s running on 3 cylinders f**k

Fazerider

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #10 on: 28 May 2019, 05:34:34 pm »

I see you’d checked the plugs were all sparking, but they can behave differently when out.
Have the plug caps ever been changed? If they’re the originals (black right angle) then they’re renowned for causing misfires, if they're straight red ones they've been changed for NGK SD05F type which are more dependable.
It's also worth trimming the lead where it screws into the plug cap, the wire core can corrode… lopping 8mm or so off the end gives the screw something conductive again.

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2019, 06:03:23 pm »
They’re the black right angle caps, the bike was laid up for years, only done 2k miles from new, apparently the carbs were professionally cleaned by the previous owner when it was recommissioned,so I’m hoping that was done correctly, they were out of balance so obviously weren’t set up when refitted.
I’ll get a set of the new caps,I need to eliminate those before digging deeper.
Incidentally the bike runs fine when warmed, acceleration and running at high revs fine, so if I need to remove the carbs and clean/check/adjust, it can wait until winter.
Thanks again.

redmandan

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2019, 06:46:33 pm »
Your warm up problems are very similar to mine. I think it might just be something about the fazers. When I got my bike 3 years ago I fitted new NGK caps, trimmed the leads, whipped the carbs off and gave a full clean, balanced carbs, new rubber intake manifolds and new plugs.

Every time I start the bike I feel the exhaust pipes and 3rd warms up much slower than the others. After a ride they’re all piping hot. No flat spots in the rev range and pulls away smoothly so it’s just something I’ve accepted.

Disorderlypunk

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2019, 10:24:27 am »
ok not managed to read everyones replys as in bit of a rush today
i did a vid on this and found balancing imposible due to a miss placed spring on the MIDDLE balance screw so it wouldnt return no matter how much i unscrewed and there fore couldnt balance (it was seriously off aswell)
im hoping than this is your problem because as it is not moving at all then your more likely looking at valve clearances (easy) and if all that is good then it could easily be a head off and reseat your valves (dont worry i did a video on doing that aswell)
balancing - https://youtu.be/Yh-vl43DTSA
reseating valve - https://youtu.be/3qgFouYlbuU

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #14 on: 29 May 2019, 10:29:08 am »
and im assuming you have given your carbs a clean to ensure there isnt gunk blocking any of the jets
not just a tub of redex in the tank, i mean a proper clean (it is a ballache getting past that airbox though)

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2019, 06:09:03 pm »
They were supposed to have been “professionally cleaned” prior to the bike going back on the road, although there’s no receipt to confirm this.

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #16 on: 01 June 2019, 05:59:15 pm »
Well new plug caps haven’t made any difference, I’ve noticed or seems to run perfect when on choke no lumpy running, but when the choke is backed off, that’s when it seems to run on 3 cylinders with no3 pipe not getting as hot as quick as the others.
I think a carb removal and check may be on the cards, but I’ll do that in winter, when the bike won’t be getting used so much

Trebus

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #17 on: 01 June 2019, 07:37:06 pm »
If you can get hold of an ultrasonic bath you’ll be able to clean the carbs 100%. Cleaning the ‘old’ way using carb cleaner solvent just doesn’t seem to remove the varnish left behind by modern ethanol mixed petrol. The 6 litre types are about £85 on eBay and work a treat

Garfeild

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #18 on: 02 June 2019, 11:58:28 am »
Do the carbs have to be stripped to go in the tank, or bung em in all in one piece?

Disorderlypunk

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #19 on: 03 June 2019, 05:02:10 am »
Do the carbs have to be stripped to go in the tank, or bung em in all in one piece?
if the tank is big enough just part stripped, tops/botoms off remove sliders, jets out to go in seperatly
(whole carbs can go in but the more removed easier it is for debris to come out internally)


just had a thought and it will be easy enough to check now and save time later - might be worth checking your fuel levels in your carb
(4-16 in manual) somethings niggling me about the running ok on choke making me wonder why its running lean the rest of the time.

AndyK

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #20 on: 10 June 2022, 08:17:08 pm »
After not using my Fazer much last year due to injury, I had engine running problems which I attributed to a gummed up carb. Cleaning spray and redex would help a bit but not for long.

So I bit the bullet and removed the carbs to clean... I recorded how many turns out the pilot screws were (about 2.25-2.5) and put all the jets and needles etc in the ultrasonic cleaner with some cleaning fluid diluted with distilled water. All good, except I spilled some coolant on one of the spark plugs when removing the carb, which seemed to cause that plug to not spark. Replacement spark plugs and NGK connectors were fitted. Leads trimmed a bit to get fresh conductor.  Everything went back together OK.   

Next, I did the balancing using some vacuum gauges. This was a nightmare and took quite a while. It seemed I could get it pretty much on-point but then a few minutes later it'd be way off again. I iterated around and managed to get to something that was roughly consistent.

But... it sounds "wrong" like it's running on 3 cylinders when idling. Exhaust from cylinder #1 measures about 30 degrees cooler than the other three cylinders. Have tweaked the pilot screw back and forth on #1 +/- 1 turn and it hasn't made a difference.

I had an MOT this week and the guy said it sounds like the Pilot is really badly adjusted, or its a dodgy coil pack. I ordered a couple of coil packs to try - should be here next week. 

When riding on throttle it sounds better and feels like it has full power (not like it did when running on 3 with the wet plug).

Beginning to get to the end of my tether on this - If the coil packs don't fix it, I have to send it for a proper carb setup at the workshop... before I do, does anyone have any words of wisdom?

Andy
2003 FZS600 - Owned from new.

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #21 on: 11 June 2022, 08:52:12 am »
If you are sure you have a spark then it will be fuel/air related. Have you got the idle speed set correctly? Should be about 1250rpm

Other than that, it could be a jet that has blocked again due to debris in teh fuel line coming into the nice clean carb.
Another ex-Fazer rider that is a foccer again

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #22 on: 11 June 2022, 10:05:48 am »
You've got what is a fairly common problem, before you do any more check inside the fuel tank for corrosion same with the fuel filter, lines and float bowls.  If you've got any of the above you need to either replace, treat or clean, if you don't the problem will just keep reoccurring, which could well be why after all your work it's playing up again. 

Balancing carbs isn't as easy as many would have you believe, it is by definition a balancing act and it's not just the butterfly's.  The air jets (pilots) must be set correctly and each carb pulling the correct level of Hg regardless whether they are balanced or not.  Then there's the TPS which is a datum, work on only one carb and shouldn't be touched unless it's been played with, again it's set by the level of Hg.  The other potential issue is the kit you're using some of the cheap sets of gauges are rubbish, then it's how you use them and adjust. 

If you search the board I've made many posts over the years, some are very detailed on how to do the job.  Top tips go slow, use good kit and make sure the tank and fuel line/s are clear of corrosion, or you'll be redoing at regular intervals ;)



 
Later

AndyK

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #23 on: 12 June 2022, 02:09:48 pm »
Thanks everyone... new coil packs came today - installed and make no difference.


Started it on choke and then released choke after a few seconds. After a few minutes running exhaust header pipes were:


#1: 41 degrees C
#2:138 degrees C
#3: 142 degrees C
#4: 140 degrees C


No debris or rust in tank or filter. Next step will be to remove carb again and re-check pilot jet for blockages.

Anyone know approx cost of having a setup done by a professional with the right equipment? [/size][size=78%]  [/size]

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Re: Pilot screw
« Reply #24 on: 23 June 2022, 09:48:41 pm »
Get yourself some nozzle cleaner pokey bits of various diameters, pull the carbs and poke out blocked jets, dont go mad cos you don't want to make the the holes bigger (they are soft brass) but you do want to remove any varnish, I find brake cleaner etc wont remove all the varnish that makes the tiny orrifice smaller, you can feel the difference between poking varnish crud and solid brass.


Get some brake cleaner with a straw and ideally compressed air to blow out the passages in carb body.


With the carbs off and cleaned, you can sort of "bench sync" them by getting the butterflies to be all the same, you can do it by eye but they will be miles out, you can blow through each throat with your mouth and feel the difference, then when they're on the bike they will be fairly close.  When syncing you have to be very carefull to change one thing at a time and you need to know all jets are clean and pilots set exacly the same, dont re adjust pilots untill vaccume is synced.