Date: 14-10-19  Time: 20:05 PM

Author Topic: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS  (Read 6079 times)

old son

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #75 on: 26 February 2019, 02:46:47 PM »
Thanks Dazza, I am about three weeks behind you. I have spoken to my company and as I will be saving them £12.50 per day on charges, they have agreed to pay for the C of C. I have two Fazers so two C of C's required.

Ripsnortingvtwin

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #76 on: 26 February 2019, 04:19:11 PM »
well thats sad news looks like i need to get on with mine now if this is the case ??? dazza ??

dazza

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #77 on: 02 March 2019, 06:00:10 PM »
Just a word of advice to everyone considering this course of action..DONT PAY YAMAHA any money yet !


TFL's latest communication with me has only just mentioned  Euro 3 compliance and given me a link which includes the CO as well as the NOx.
If I had had this information sooner it may have saved me £60.




There is a good chance that it may be rejected as the CO is not compliant.


Pretty pissed off to be honest seeing as TFL have been very slow to reply and give me all the information I required up until now.
They have given me the absolute impression that it was the harmful  NOx that was the all important factor.


My advice is....Lets see what happens before you pay for your certificate of conformity from Yamaha.








mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #78 on: 02 March 2019, 10:09:44 PM »
That's nonsense isn't it. Because CO2 isn't a pollutant and doesn't cause breathing problems.

dazza

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #79 on: 02 March 2019, 10:36:18 PM »
That's nonsense isn't it. Because CO2 isn't a pollutant and doesn't cause breathing problems.
Trouble is, it's not CO2, it's CO which I believe is Carbon monoxide.
So yes, it may well get rejected as carbon monoxide is a harmful gas.
My gripe is that up until now, TFL have only mentioned NOx


A typical case of moving the goalposts  :wall


Still, even if my attempt fails....at least I tried.
It's  the only way to look at it.


In the meantime, I don't want anyone else to waste their money paying Yamaha for a COC.


mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #80 on: 02 March 2019, 11:39:20 PM »
O bugger. Fingers crossed.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #81 on: 03 March 2019, 12:20:06 AM »
More research - This is the original paper put out by TFL for the scheme
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/appendix_c1_supporting_information_document_-_copy.pdf
Lots in there, but para 2.1 sets out the basis of the charge and sets the omissions level as Euro 3 for bikes, but all of the measurements to prove the need are based on NOx (and PM for diesels only)
However the letter from TFL on which MAG are campaigning
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/loophole-means-older-motorbikes-may-still-qualify-for-ulez-exemption/
Seems to make it quite clear that it's only the NOx (and PM) component of Euro 3 which is relevant.
So as you say, if they are back tracking on their own advice, then the goalposts are well and truly being moved.
Might be worth keeping an eye on the MAG page http://www.mag-uk.org/ for any updates

dazza

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #82 on: 03 March 2019, 01:06:15 AM »
Yeah, nice one mtread. May use this info if they do try and reject my claim of exemption.
I'll wait and see what the next email from them contains. :thumbup

steve 10562cc

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #83 on: 03 March 2019, 06:51:59 AM »
Dazza Don't be hard on yourself it was never about pollution just collecting extra revenue. You could have carried your bike in on your back with no engine in it in the ULEZ and the paint would have been the wrong colour you or any of us will ever reach the goalposts. It's all about the mayor swelling his coffers to spend on his pet projects.   

red98

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #84 on: 03 March 2019, 07:55:37 AM »
Bit of a set back DAZZA  :thumbdown ....still a glimmer of hope though , good or bad breakfast is still on me......
you got to try  :thumbup :thumbup
One, is never going to be enough.....

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #85 on: 03 March 2019, 10:17:14 AM »
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183609077280 This would make it a UK bike......
Nice idea, but I don't have anywhere I could do the swap. Also how can a breaker guarantee the frame is 100% straight..?

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #86 on: 03 March 2019, 10:36:24 AM »
Looks like MAG are doing something with the manufacturers, although whether our models get covered in time is another matter http://www.mag-uk.org/en/newsdetail/a7395

Ah its nice to see MAG are still around, if they can get someone for older bike to be exempt I would happily sign up again.

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #87 on: 03 March 2019, 10:45:40 AM »
TFL's latest communication with me has only just mentioned  Euro 3 compliance and given me a link which includes the CO as well as the NOx. If I had had this information sooner it may have saved me £60.
Im on a TFL related note the last email i got from them which would suggest they dont know what they are doing and we can probably use this to our advantage-

Quote
Dear XXX
Our Ref: TFL-592293-1550656980
Customer Account Number: N/A

Thank you for your enquiry received on 14 February 2019, regarding the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ). Please be advise that you can provide a letter on headed paper from the manufacturer's Technical Department confirming the vehicle's Euro standard, with a copy of the vehicle registration document (V5c) confirming Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) emissions. The letter from the manufacturer must include the vehicle identification number (VIN) as well.

If you have any questions, please visit tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone or call us on 0343 222 2222 (textphone 0207 649 9123 if you have impaired hearing).

Yours sincerely

D. Milton (Contracts & Operations manager)
This would suggest all we need is a letter from Yahama confirming that the FZS1000 is Euro3 status for that model and the left hand side of the V5C that shows the N03 output level and VIN.

You have both of these so TFL should just issue you with an exemption and stock dicking around.

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #88 on: 03 March 2019, 10:52:22 AM »
@Admins, you should probably consider pinning this thread.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #89 on: 03 March 2019, 01:07:15 PM »
I'm guessing that the 1000 and 600 aren't fully Euro 3 compliant for all of the tests,  but the 1000 at least does meet the Euro 3 NOx test. And that's why TFL are hesitating. They've boxed themselves into a corner.
Their automated system will rely on checking reg plates against dvla records. For more recent models the NOx is recorded on the v5, but for our models it isn't. What's also relevant is that the words 'Euro3' dont actually appear on the v5, and presumably isn't known by dvla. My 'Euro3' compliant Tiger's v5 just shows the various NOx. Co etc exhaust emissions which are held on the DVLA database.
I'm also thinking that Yamaha etc tested a sample bike for CoC, and that ours are associated with it by vin numbers.
So TFL have a problem. If CoCs are showing whole ranges of bikes pass NOx tests, TFL have got to work out a way of exempting them. If we all write in and say 'my bike is the same as one you've exempted by CoC' then TFL have got lots of admin to do. If they fine people who then appeal, and it turns out they shouldn't have been charged, then that's lots of admin.
That's why I think there's a pause. Government organisations don't like lots of admin, or so I believe  :)


b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #90 on: 05 March 2019, 08:48:23 PM »
For more recent models the NOx is recorded on the v5, but for our models it isn't.
Are you sure because my 2006 bandit has all those details in the V5.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #91 on: 05 March 2019, 08:52:39 PM »
Sorry, meant for FZS600 and FZS1000s it isn't.  My 2004 Speed Triple also has NOx recorded (it's a fail)
« Last Edit: 05 March 2019, 08:53:46 PM by mtread »

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #92 on: 05 March 2019, 08:54:52 PM »
Received my COC in the post today
I can't believe that doc cost £60, its a low qaulity print out and there is only 2 bits of information that differ from one FZS1000 to the next - the vin and the date - what utter and complete bureaucratic B$.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #93 on: 05 March 2019, 10:56:37 PM »
Apparently other manufacturers charge more.
Anyway, as I said before, that's just 5 days worth of ulez charges.

dazza

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #94 on: 06 March 2019, 02:08:36 PM »
Starting to lose patience with these fuckers now.  My latest communication with them, well, I say communication but that implies a two way conversation which it is not. :wall





Dear Sir,
I find myself again having to chase you up regarding my motorcycle exemption for the ULEZ.
I have jumped through all the hoops, provided you with my V5 and COC at personal expense to myself.
May I remind you that all of your available information has been based on the NOx output which I have proven to be below the threshold on my machine.
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/appendix_c1_supporting_information_document_-_copy.pdf
I would also like to point out that every intelligent human being concerned with this understands that motorcycles are not part of the problem, they are the solution.
To measure a pollutant in g/km is systematically flawed as a motorcycle and a car drive very differently through London.
A car will be at the mercy of the traffic whereas a motorcycle can filter making the journey quicker and more efficient.
I understand MAG have been in communication with yourselves regarding this matter and I wonder if they are experiencing the same level of miscommunication.
I will be contacting MAG shortly to verify this.
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/loophole-means-older-motorbikes-may-still-qualify-for-ulez-exemption/
So, in summary, this whole ULEZ is inherently flawed and discriminates against night workers, poorer people and contractors who come in from outside London to maintain the infrastructure of your city day and night.
You say it's not about the money but it clearly is as if you are willing to pay, you seem to have no problem in allegedly allowing us to continue to pollute the air around London.
The crazy thing about it is, if I were to own a 40 year old gas guzzling, smoke belching vehicle, it would be exempt. That makes no sense at all.
As said before, based on the information I have been given by you and your websites, I have proven that my machine is compliant but I see that in your latest communication you mention Euro 3.
It is obvious that my machine is pre Euro 3 hence why I'm having to produce a COC.
I do hope this is not the start of TFL moving the goalposts.
It may be obvious that I'm getting a little frustrated with the lack of action and communication from yourselves as the 8th April is fast approaching and my motorcycle offers me a way of getting Into work while I save enough money to upgrade my car.
I have contacted you on several occasions before I applied for a COC asking you to confirm with the information given to me that if I were to pay out for a COC that you would definitely exempt my vehicle. Again, you failed to reply.
I feel your customer service is extremely lacking and I suspect, you are probably realising that the way the ULEZ has been structured is riddled with loopholes and flaws.
Please can you reply to this email with a view to confirming my exemption so that I can use my motorcycle to get to work.
Many thanks


Regards
DAZZA  (MBE, OBE, Hoop jumper extraordinaire and thoroughly pissed off customer)
« Last Edit: 06 March 2019, 03:13:19 PM by dazza »

Ripsnortingvtwin

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #95 on: 06 March 2019, 03:05:21 PM »
fight on dazza , i'am hope you win or the bike of no use  in a few weeks !!!!

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #96 on: 06 March 2019, 06:57:29 PM »
fight on dazza , i'am hope you win or the bike of no use  in a few weeks !!!!


That is encouraging  :'( [size=78%] [/size]

b1k3rdude

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #97 on: 06 March 2019, 07:37:41 PM »
My reply from MAG via email -
Quote

With respect to ULEZ, the current situation is as follows.
The initial implementation (due 8th April 2019) will cover the same geographic boundaries as the current Congestion Charging Zone.  In 2021 the boundaries will be extended out to the north and south circulars.  Current requirements for motorcycles to be exempted from the charge is Euro3 (implemented July 2007).  Non-compliant motorcycles will be charged £12.50 per day.
MAG have successfully demonstrated that many pre Euro3 motorcycles are compliant with the Euro3 NO2 emission standard of 0.15ug/km.  On that basis we have gained acceptance from TfL that any motorcycle proven to be compliant with the NO2 limit of 0.15ug/km will be given individual exemption on a bike by bike basis.  This places burden of proof on the individual owner.  Proof can be provided in the form of a Certificate of Conformity supplied by the manufacturer (application for a CoC in some cases can cost up to £150, dependent on the manufacturer), or by having the individual emissions of the bike tested at a certified test centre.  To date we are still awaiting definition from TfL of the relevant test and certification of the testing facilities that will be accepted.
Naturally we are pushing that the exemption should be applied to all compliant pre Euro3 bikes, with no burden of proof placed on the owner, but this is yet to be accepted by TfL.  Given that the time remaining before implementation is now just 6 weeks, we have formally requested a delay to the implementation of charging for motorcycles due to the delays caused at TfL’s end to resolve the outstanding technical issues.
Overarching all this, we continue to argue for a blanket exemption for all motorcycles of any age and a policy to promote modal shift from single occupancy cars to motorcycles to reduce congestion and emissions.
Regarding the line -
Quote
To date we are still awaiting definition from TfL of the relevant test and certification of the testing facilities that will be accepted.
I have spoke to TFL and they dont fucking know and told me to speak to VOSA who themselves don't fucking know and are getting fucked of with TFL sending people to them. Vosa did suggest taking my bike to a class 4 MOT testing station which I did on Saturday but because they are not up for motorcycles the figures they got when they poked their senser up my pipe (pun intended) the Co2, HCL and Lambda numbers did not marry up to what we should be seeing for that bike.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #98 on: 06 March 2019, 08:19:50 PM »
But it's TFL that are laying down the legislation, nothing to do with VOSA.
As Dazza says, I strongly suspect they are now realising they've created a massive loophole. Their advice about 'pre 2007' bikes is too vague, as is even Euro 3 when our bikes weren't tested for Euro 3.
Of course, there's a simple solution option available to them..... exempt all bikes.

mtread

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Re: ULEZ BREAKING NEWS
« Reply #99 on: 09 March 2019, 05:36:13 PM »
MAG have written to TFL requesting a postponement
 http://www.mag-uk.org/en/newsdetail/a7404
They give several reasons, but the last bullet point is telling. Makes the point about TFL having to refund bikers who have proved their bikes are under the emissions limits. MAG have picked up that TFL are in trouble.