Date: 28-03-24  Time: 13:15 pm

Author Topic: BREXIT  (Read 209639 times)

dazza

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,424
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - MT10
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #500 on: 23 November 2018, 09:55:19 pm »
One thing is for sure we are fast running out of time to stop climate change.


Well, that's one thing it's got in common with a BREXIT deal.


Why we aren't jumping on this technology, only the authors of the Barcelona declaration knows. Anything to take away the hold Saudi Arabia has got over us has only got to be a positive thing for all our futures.

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #501 on: 24 November 2018, 09:14:20 pm »
 
Quote
Why we aren't jumping on this technology, only the authors of the Barcelona declaration knows. Anything to take away the hold Saudi Arabia has got over us has only got to be a positive thing for all our futures.

I think such technology may be part of the solution.  One issue is how much energy does it actually take to make a gallon of fuel.  And the problem with the internal combustion engine is that it is extremely inefficient.  So I suspect the electric car will be the better long term solution, but of course infrastructure for electric cars is still pretty dire – whilst petrol stations are plentiful.


I also suspect that using this technology to reduce Co2 levels in the atmosphere – ie carbon capture – will probably remain pie in the sky. 



But meanwhile BREXIT;

Spain is now onboard.   The EU is now set to agree May’s BREXIT deal.  The deal is now set.


However, the DUP has come out and stated that they will reject the deal and vote against it.
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings, but I think it’s fair to say that May cannot get her deal through parliament.
So the question is where to now.  And bearing in mind that NO DEAL is not an option.  NO DEAL is more or less off the table.
 

fazersharp

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,915
  • 10 stone Racing Snake
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #502 on: 24 November 2018, 09:48:48 pm »
Pedro Sánchez was just grand standing and paying to his domestic audience.

And I wonder how many people realise that Spain has its own "Gibralter" almost exactly the same -Ceuta (any one heard it this) its 18 miles across the sea from gibralter and is in North Africa in  Morocco who lays its own claim to it and want it back but Spain has no intention of giving it up.A case of the Spanish tomato calling the English Strawberry red, something like that.Our negotiators should just tell Spain to vamos or say "cough - Ceuta" and watch them callate.   
  
« Last Edit: 24 November 2018, 10:12:25 pm by fazersharp »
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #503 on: 24 November 2018, 10:54:35 pm »
Can't help thinking that an obvious solution is for the EU to offer an emendment to our membership.Something they maybe should have offered when Cameron originally came to them.Some restrictions on freedom of movement within our current membership might be enougth to satifie enougth people to bury BREXIT.
As of course we are at risk of being stuck in never ending BREXIT negotiations.

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #504 on: 25 November 2018, 01:04:07 pm »
Why does Theresa May have to let parliament vote on her deal?. Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
Surely we should be asked whether or not to accept either May's Brexit deal or a no deal Brexit?.
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 01:04:58 pm by YamFazFan »

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #505 on: 25 November 2018, 01:30:50 pm »
 
Quote
Why does Theresa May have to let parliament vote on her deal?
It’s because the UK is a parliamentary democracy.  All legislation has to be approved by parliament.  May has tried to by-pass parliament but the supreme court ruled against her.
Quote
Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
You mean the official opposition.  The Labour party can’t get a general election.  If there was a vote of no confidence in the government, the DUP would either vote with the Tory party or sit on the fence.  Either way Labour cannot call a general election.
 
Quote
Surely we should be asked whether or not to accept either May's Brexit deal or a no deal Brexit?.
Parliament will not accept, will not allow a no deal BREXIT.  The new saying is that any deal is better than No Deal.
As parliament is essentially log jammed, a second referendum is a possible way forward.  However, the question would be;


Do you wish to accept the governments terms for BREXIT.
Or
Do you wish to remain in the EU.


 
Bear in mind that May’s deal leaves the UK in essentially the same position as Turkey.  They have a customs agreement but they have no say in EU trading law, standards or legislation.


To sum up;


Nobody but a handful of BREXITEER nutters at Westminster think a No Deal BREXIT is a good idea.  So it is not going to happen.
You will struggle to find anybody who will state that May’s deal is a better deal than the deal we already have.
The best option is to remain.


It May now be a matter of whether the British public are willing to press the self-destruct button for a second time and reduce our standing in the world to that of Turkey.
 

fazersharp

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,915
  • 10 stone Racing Snake
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #506 on: 25 November 2018, 01:55:11 pm »
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.

 
We will take back control of our borders, by putting an end to the free movement of people once and for all."Instead of an immigration system based on where a person comes from, we will build one based on the skills and talents a person has to offer.
"We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.


In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
We will be out of EU programmes that do not work in our interests: out of the Common Agricultural Policy that has failed our farmers, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy that has failed our coastal communities.
Instead, we will be able to design a system of agricultural support that works for us, and we will be an independent coastal state once again, with full control over our waters.


EU citizens who have built their lives in the United Kingdom will have their rights protected, as will UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.
"A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.
"Because our European friends will always be our allies in the fight against terrorism and organised crime, the deal will ensure that security co-operation will continue, so we can keep our people safe.
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.











I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #507 on: 25 November 2018, 03:53:52 pm »
So labour + Tory rebels vote down 'May's Deal' Brexit...
Then Labour + Tory rebels from the other camp vote down a 'No Deal' Brexit...
Then we have another referendum and it's the same result. Another Leave win...
And the whole thing goes round and round ad infinitum....
Parliament should just listen to their constituants and vote out >: .



VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #508 on: 25 November 2018, 04:02:27 pm »
Quote
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.
We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.
We already have control of our money.  We vetoed the Euro.  Meanwhile we need to pay 35 billion to begin to leave.


Quote
In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
Every piece of EU legislation has been negotiated and approved by the UK.  Never at any time during our membership have we lost sovereignty.  But we will now.  Under this deal we have to continue to comply with the customs unions rules whilst having to say whatsoever in any changes to them.


As far as I am aware May’s agreement allows us to leave the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy, but the reality is that negotiations to do so will only take place once May’s deal is in place.  Remember this is an interim deal.


Quote
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.


Not whilst we are still on the customs union we won’t.  You might get there by 2022 if you are lucky. 
 

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #509 on: 25 November 2018, 04:02:35 pm »
Quote
Why should Corbyn's bunch of opportunists be allowed to sink it just so that they can get one step closer to a general election.
You mean the official opposition. 
Yeah that's them :lol

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #510 on: 25 November 2018, 04:07:12 pm »
 YamFazYam, I think you would be lucky to get three dozen MP’s to vote for a No Deal BREXIT.  A no deal BREXIT would literally bring the UK economy to a grinding halt.


So therefore you will never be offered a say on NO DEAL.  Pretty much everybody is agreed now that NO DEAL is not an option.

 

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #511 on: 25 November 2018, 05:50:09 pm »
So when parliament rejects May's deal we have another referendum. If the result is again Leave we have to go through it all again and again until we vote 'Remain' and parliament votes that through.
Great >: . That's democracy in action >: .

agricola

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Man on a mission
    • Main bike:
      FZ6 S2 07-09
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #512 on: 25 November 2018, 05:54:23 pm »
Here are some snippets from Mays open letter - sounds good to me - sounds like what I was expecting to receive when I voted leave.

 
We will take back control of our borders, by putting an end to the free movement of people once and for all."Instead of an immigration system based on where a person comes from, we will build one based on the skills and talents a person has to offer.
"We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU.


In future, our laws will be made, interpreted and enforced by our own courts and legislatures.
We will be out of EU programmes that do not work in our interests: out of the Common Agricultural Policy that has failed our farmers, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy that has failed our coastal communities.
Instead, we will be able to design a system of agricultural support that works for us, and we will be an independent coastal state once again, with full control over our waters.


EU citizens who have built their lives in the United Kingdom will have their rights protected, as will UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.
"A free trade area will allow goods to flow easily across our borders, protecting the many skilled jobs right across the country that rely on integrated supply-chains.
"Because our European friends will always be our allies in the fight against terrorism and organised crime, the deal will ensure that security co-operation will continue, so we can keep our people safe.
Outside the EU, we will be able to sign new trade deals with other countries and open up new markets in the fastest-growing economies around the world.


OOOh, yes please  :)

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #513 on: 25 November 2018, 06:32:21 pm »
 
Quote
So when parliament rejects May's deal we have another referendum. If the result is again Leave we have to go through it all again and again until we vote 'Remain' and parliament votes that through.
 Great :" title="mad" class="smiley" width="16" height="16">. That's democracy in action :" title="mad" class="smiley" width="16" height="16">.

 
No that will not happen.
It possible that parliament will approve May’s deal (the transitional deal) but right now it seems unlikely.
It’s difficult to say what happens from there.


There could be further negotiation, though the EU appears to be saying very firmly that that will not be an option.


Again, pretty much everybody agrees that NO DEAL is not an option.  The EU won’t that say that right now, but the reality is though it wouldn’t hurt them anything as much as it would hurt us, they simply don’t want to go there either. 



A general election is possible but again seems very unlikely – I just can’t see it all.  Nor do I see it solving anything.  Plus the march BREXIT date would have to be suspended.  And if Labour win it is still highly unlikely the EU would enter into further negotiation.


If parliament can’t decide then a referendum is an option.   But how many times do I have to say it – NO DEAL IS NOT AN OPTION – you will be offered May’s interim deal or continued full EU membership (which all the experts agree is the best deal we can get) 
Further second referendum would have to be legally binding.  It will be final.


And don’t forget even if somehow May’s deal goes through, you are looking at many years of negotiation before you truly achieve BREXIT. 
And at the end of the day the UK can never fully leave the EU because Northern Ireland must remain as part of the single market.


The truth is BREXIT never was possible and never will be possible.  Or it is only possible with a United Ireland and an Independent Scotland.
In other words a true BREXIT would mean the end of the United Kingdom and Great Britain. 



So achieve BREXIT you need to first shoot yourself in the left foot, then do the right before finally shooting yourself point blank in the heid.
But hey, lets see what happens.  And maybe one day our government can stop doing BREXIT and return to running the country.


So what's it all about?  It's about the Tory party.

 

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #514 on: 25 November 2018, 06:52:41 pm »
Further second referendum would have to be legally binding.  It will be final.

Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #515 on: 25 November 2018, 07:28:49 pm »
 The current deal is nothing more than an interim agreement that facilitates the beginning of negotiating a final settled agreement. 
Dominic Raab has said of the deal that he negotiated – “Well, I’m not going to advocate staying in the EU but if you just presented me terms, this deal or EU membership – we’d effectively be bound by the same rules without a control or voice over them – yes, I think this would be even worse than that”
Dominic Raab has resigned over the deal he negotiated.  That’s spectacular.
We are now on our third BREXIT secretary.
Quote
Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.
YES! 
The 2014 Independence referendum was a legally binding referendum.  Scotland voted NO so nothing happened.  But if the result was YES we would have been legally bound by the result and Scotland would by now have become an Independent nation. 
The 2016 EU referendum was a consultative referendum.  In effect the government was asking the people their position.  The result was leave.  Parliament then voted to trigger article 50.  As far as I am concerned Labour lost its bottle.  Parliament was under no legal obligation to trigger article 50.
That allowed a date to be set and a deal to be negotiated.
As we are a representative democracy, our representatives, whom we have elected to represent us, must now vote on the deal.  The supreme court has overruled May’s attempts to by pass this stage.
You cannot expect your representatives to vote through something which is clearly not in the interests of their constituents or the country as a whole.  And everybody agrees this is a shit deal.
So one possible way forward is a second referendum.  It would be May’s deal or ditch BREXIT.   Parliament will never accept NO DEAL.
Making it legally binding, would mean it has to be acted on.
In effect you are passing the parliamentary vote to the people.
It would then be up to the people to decide if they really wish to force their elected representatives to embark on mission impossible. 
 

agricola

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Man on a mission
    • Main bike:
      FZ6 S2 07-09
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #516 on: 25 November 2018, 07:38:39 pm »
[size=0px]You cannot expect your representatives to vote through something which is clearly not in the interests of their constituents or the country as a whole.[/size]


[/size][size=0px]Thats what politicians do. All the time. Now i know youre just a wind up merchant
[/size][size=0px]

[/size]
[/size]
[/size]

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #517 on: 25 November 2018, 07:46:12 pm »
 What I don’t get is what do people want from BREXIT.


OK so an end to freedom of movement and alternative arrangement to the common fisheries policy.
Irrespective of whether one agrees with these aims or not they are understandable. I get it.

 
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us.  We never lost sovereignty by joining the EU. 
The EU imposing law on us is a myth.


However, under May’s deal we now loose sovereignty.  The 27 EU countries can amend the customs union and we will have no say.  They can adjust CE standards etc and we have no say.  And so on and so on.
We have no say and no veto.
And we can never get out of it because of the NI backstop which is binding.


I genuinely do not understand why anybody would want to do this.
 

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #518 on: 25 November 2018, 07:47:45 pm »
Quote
Does that mean it wouldn't have to go to Parliament to be voted on as this current deal is going to be?.
YES! 
:lol

So one possible way forward is a second referendum.  It would be May’s deal or ditch BREXIT.   Parliament will never accept NO DEAL.
Making it legally binding, would mean it has to be acted on.
In effect you are passing the parliamentary vote to the people.
It would then be up to the people to decide if they really wish to force their elected representatives to embark on mission impossible. 

But if the result of that second leagally binding referendum was 'Remain' (ditch Brexit), then surely the electorate who voted Leave in the first one will be going bonkers?!. They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
Surely no government would ever risk such a thing.

fazersharp

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,915
  • 10 stone Racing Snake
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #519 on: 25 November 2018, 07:58:29 pm »
Just heard a replay of Mar talking to Blair and Mar said that Jo cox was killed as a result of Brexit  :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek Really !
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 08:22:24 pm by fazersharp »
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

fazersharp

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,915
  • 10 stone Racing Snake
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #520 on: 25 November 2018, 08:01:17 pm »
What I don’t get is what do people want from BREXIT.
OK so an end to freedom of movement and alternative arrangement to the common fisheries policy.
Irrespective of whether one agrees with these aims or not they are understandable. I get it.

FINALLY  :rolleyes
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #521 on: 25 November 2018, 08:04:28 pm »
 
Quote
But if the result of that second leagally binding referendum was 'Remain' (ditch Brexit), then surely the electorate who voted Leave in the first one will be going bonkers?!. They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
 Surely no government would ever risk such a thing.


 
So the argument is that the people who voted for LEAVE can now see the deal.  When we voted in 2016 nobody had any idea of what BREXIT would look like.  The truth is we still have no idea, and in fact it’s clear that it may not be possible at all.


So parliament could now go to the people and ask them – this is what it looks like – what do you want us to do?
They'll be blaming Parliament for robbing them of their victory won't they?.
I would hope not.  But maybe.  And anyway they will be the same people who have been blaming the EU for the actions of successive UK governments that they have elected. 



Remember this was never offered to the people for the good of the people.  And if I can quote Agricola;
Quote
That’s what politicians do. All the time.
Or rather it’s what Tory politicians are prepared to do to win an election.  They gambled the future health of the UK economy on an election.  Remember Tories exist for no other reason than to rule.


Agricola – at the end of the day – we elect them.  Wait for it…………………………………


We’ll get the government we deserve. :lol
And we might even get the BREXIT we deserve too. :eek
 

 

VNA - BMW Wank

  • BMW Wank
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,546
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • - BMW R1250R Honda C90
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #522 on: 25 November 2018, 08:05:42 pm »
Quote
FINALLY  :rolleyes
No I've always got that.
But is that it?

YamFazFan

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,626
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #523 on: 25 November 2018, 08:10:23 pm »
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens next with the vote in parliament. I suppose the whips are out for this vote are they?. I don't agree with that. It's a joke. Makes a mockery of democracy.

fazersharp

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,915
  • 10 stone Racing Snake
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • View Profile
Re: Just for VNA a brexit thread
« Reply #524 on: 25 November 2018, 08:11:11 pm »
Quote
Everything to do with the EU has been negotiated with us, nothing has been imposed on us. 
The EU imposing law on us is a myth.The 27 EU countries can amend the customs union and we will have no say. 
What is a Myth is that we actually really have any say in the EU. If we did then Camoron would of ben able to get us some concessions and there would of been no need for Brexit.But instead the EU treated him and the British people with an arrogant contempt.
I don't do rain or threat there of. dry rider only with no shame.